OHKO and Accuracy, lets discuss.

[kylecat]

I've never had a particularly strong urge to use any OHKO sets or annoyers, but I really disagree that they should be banned. I just want to see if anybody still is interested on these long settled clauses.

OHKO: The main arguments I've heard against OHKO's is that it only takes luck and no skill. It can make an annoying game for someone when their counter for a Pokemon get's OHKOed even though it was a very small chance to hit. But this isn't the only part of the pokemon game where lucky hax can make you pull your hair out. Critical hits, flinches, full paralysis, and freezing can all unexpectedly turn a game around. Many sets already depend on this luck such as serene grace, super luck, anger point, and sniper abusers. If there are already sets that depend on luck to turn a game around, why aren't these sets allowed?

A second point is that users of these sets aren't particularilly dangerous in general. Rain rest dewgong may score a surprise kill, but once you know it doesn't have any attacking moves any pokemon can take it. The other one are rest talk Nidoking or Nidoqueen with fissure and horn drill. Sure they might score a frustrating kill or two, but all in all, they'll be lucky to pull their weight on the team anyways. Unless Pokemon like Blissey can start running successful OHKO sets there is little reason to be overly concerned.

My third point is it's in the game! Gamefreak created OHKO's and abilities like sturdy anticipating that it would be a part of battling. I know Gamefreak has done some wierd stuff like creating Luvdisc, but for the most part they have given us a great game.

Evasion: The main argument for evasion is just sparing people frustration. While evasion sets can be more effective than OHKO sets, they usually are inferior to most sets the Pokemon can run. Other than than I'm going to go back to my point before: like it or not, Pokemon is a game with chance involved, and many sets already depend on luck. If you want a strategy game devoid of luck, I suggest you play Chess.

Conclusion: Most people won't take advantage of these if they are reallowed. But there are always gimmick players, people looking for different ways to approach the game who would appreciate being able to use these sets.

 

[1059860]

This website has been built upon the creation of Pokemon metagame, a game solely developed for strategic battling. The 4 moves with only 30% accuracy are more towards luck than strategy (since they are not affected by evasion/accuracy factors but more by levels of your Pokemon to the opponent's Pokemon), hitting on the Jackpot is quite annoying. Inept players can simply abuse these moves, such as Guillotine dugtrios, and killing the other player, and evidentally change the outcome of the game simply because he's lucky at hitting the Jackpot, then what's the point of developing the skill and knowledge that you need for the Metagame today?

Sure there are haxes in today's Metagame, but none can be nearly as absolute as those OHKO moves.

 

[Veedrock]

OHKO: Here, let me grab the 6 bulkiest pokemon to learn a OHKO move, pump its defences (who needs attack EVs?) and start throwing attacks out there that will KO with no investment. With the Nidos, you forget that people can have both. If we allow OHKO, might as well allow Giratina; it's a wall that can be taken down in one shot, it can't be that uber. OHKO leads to offense being abandoned and people relying on the RNG for their victories. Where's the competitive edge to that?

OHKOs puts an end to walling (Blissey can't wall a "special attacker" if it has a OHKO move, same for Skarmory for physical), actual offense is eliminated (no need to invest in attack whatso-freaking-ever because you can OHKO everything in the game), and drives the metagame into a RNG-decided system, which isn't a very good one if you ask me. Anybody could get to the top of the ladder with no skill; just pure luck.
---
Evasion: The game becomes centralized. There will be three types of teams; Double Team, Anti-Double Team, and Anti-Anti-Double Team (normal teams). So when I build one of these three teams and click on "Find Match" I have a 33% chance of winning, a 33% chance at losing, and a 33% chance of actually having to fight out a battle. Rock Paper Scizors anybody? It shows no competitive aspect when the victor is decided on which type of team you're matched up against. (LOL Double Team vs. Double Team would be hilarious. Who quits first?).

Also, your "chess" argument isn't very...thought out either. There's always a degree of luck to Pokemon, but when I'm gambling hitting 1/20 (rough guess, may be more or less) times to do not even enough to take him out, that's annoying, not entertaining, and again makes the winner decided primarily by the RNG.
---

You're jumping the gun in your conclusion. What evidence do you have to support that people won't take advantage? If it is an "advantage" (which it generally is), then of course people will use it. Allowing these two "strategies" (if you can call them that) doesn't open new avenues; it actually closes a lot more.

Of course, they may be tested, but I don't think they should be considered as it narrows the options that players actually have. Great Pokemon like Infernape automatically become useless with OHKO because despite hitting from both sides of the spectrum, OHKO moves take no investment and can do the same exact thing, only better.

 

[Articanus]

accuracy and evasion are different. Lowering accuracy isn't banned when compared to raising evasion because you can switch out from accuracy, wheras evasion all you do is stay there and watch the opponent not be able to do anything unless they have something specific to handle it(Aura Sphere, Aerial Ace, No Guard, Haze).

And to view my opinions on OHKOs just look at the newest thread in PR ;P

 

[lilyhollow]

And to view my opinions on OHKOs just look at the newest thread in PR ;P

Knowing that we're pretty much just borrowing Sleep Clause directly from Nintendo, I'm personally not seeing how your proposed OHKO clause isn't just an excuse to change game mechanics.

 

[Articanus]

really we're trying to make the most competitive game possible and by banning Garchomp from play we're already going against the game's coding, in a sense.

...that's the best I have ._.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Blissey can't wall a "special attacker" if it has a OHKO move, same for Skarmory for physical

Skarmory has Sturdy as one of its ability choices. Just saying. <_<

Except for Pokemon that are walled by something with Sturdy, OHKOs throw a monkey wrench into the idea of prediction. Instead of trying to predict what will come in to take your hit, you can just throw out a OHKO move and see your counter drop dead 30% of the time.

 

[zorbees]

It alters game mechanics in the same way Evasion Clause does, so there is precedent.

 

[lilyhollow]

It alters game mechanics in the same way Evasion Clause does, so there is precedent.

really we're trying to make the most competitive game possible and by banning Garchomp from play we're already going against the game's coding, in a sense.

...that's the best I have ._.

The Garchomp ban is just that, a ban, while the Evasion Clause is a rather funky ban that for some reason applies in Ubers as well (which is irrelevant anyway). We never changed any game mechanics; we just removed what we thought unfit for competitive play (justified or not).

I'm not seeing the connection, and even if there is one, considering that we'd theoretically want to actually test it (in order to make sure that these nerfed OHKO moves were actually beneficial to the metagame somehow), I have to agree with what QibingZero said in PR as well: "what's the point?" It's a lot of work to go through for what probably wouldn't even be a very meaningful improvement, and we'd be adding another silly clause to the pile for just about no reason.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Other than Shuckle, Bastiodon, and Probopass, not a single Sturdy Pokemon has a mote of Special Defense. We're looking at Sturdy Pokemon like Donphan, Skarmory, Forretress, Magnezone (lol at not using Magnet Rise) being the only ones in OU with the trait. Compare that to big-time users of these OHKO moves, Lapras, Articuno, and Walrein for Sheer Cold (which all threaten with STAB attacks off of decent SpA), or Nidoking (Which could run Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Hidden Power Fire/Horn Drill and fuck everything up), Camerupt or Gastrodon for Fissure, or quite simply Scarf Pinsir with Guillotine, whose Mold Breaker allows OHKO moves to completely bypass Sturdy. The very idea of a team like this being viable is ridiculous.

 

[zorbees]

Blame Game: Making Evasion moves fail isn't altering game mechanics?

SDS: For Magnezone, you mean Magnet Pull, not Magnet Rise. A quick edit can fix that though.

 

[1059860]

So Lopunny's Encore + Sub + Agility to an extremely defensive Lapras with Mind Reader + Sheer Cold + Rest & Chesto Berry, anyone?

That's like abuse. No team should be forced to carry a Sturdy Pokemon just to counter some inept player using noob moves with 30% accuracy, hoping for best LUCK to get a jackpot. Plus, HP Fire/Fighting Magnet Pull ScarfZone anyone? Which easily traps a shit load of Steel types, the majority of the population that owns Sturdy.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Whille Im not completely on any side, I wouldnt mind for a test. But under the heap that is the Order of Operations, it would take months for something like that.
I think alot of what has been said couuld be true, that it does lower some skill and takes no prediction. It really could devolve a metagame to whoever can hit with the OHKO first. But on the other hand, that most likely wouldnt happen either. Most of the learners of the OHKO moves are UU pokes that cant honestly take a big hit and switch into something like Salmence, who he could very well just be giving a free DD with the chance of a free turn being 70& and it can proceed to sweep you.
And evasion, just forget about that. It will never happen as evasion is just to good. Someone could easily run a Double Team/Rest/Filler/Filler and win.

 

[lilyhollow]

Blame Game: Making Evasion moves fail isn't altering game mechanics?

It's identical to a blanket ban for all intents and purposes, so obviously I'm going to treat it as such. If you really want to keep arguing this then you can be one of the dozens of people suggesting, say, a Stealth Rock damage limit, but rest assured that there's a reason they've failed despite the fact that it would probably be beneficial to the game in a more meaningful way than a makeshift OHKO nerf.

Better yet, you can ask Colin what he thinks, considering that he was the one who programmed the Evasion clause into the game in the first place, not Smogon.

 

[zorbees]

Meh, I guess I'll stop playing devil's advocate because in this case it really is useless. I'm not going to talk about nerfing SR because adding rules to change something that isn't broken is against what I, and from what I understand, Smogon, stand for. Articanus' proposal is a slight rule change allowing a couple more sets, and thus staying as close to the original game without being broken.

(ps. don't take this post and make it into an SR discussion)

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

So Lopunny's Encore + Sub + Agility to an extremely defensive Lapras with Mind Reader + Sheer Cold + Rest & Chesto Berry, anyone?

Lapras can't learn Mind Reader. I guess you mean Articuno.

Anyhow, I've put my two cents in on this before. To sum up:

Realistically, allowing OHKO moves and evasion-boosting would probably only make the game slightly different. Those of you who are maniacally predicting an apocalypse of teams centralized around these moves should calm down.

Those of you who are claiming people would shoot to the top of the ladder through sheer luck don't have a very firm grasp of the math involved here. I would like to meet the person who consistently beat good teams played by competent players by exclusively using an entirely luck-based strategy. That person would be a living statistical anomaly on a grand scale.

 

[1059860]

Yeah sorry I did mean Articuno.

 

[gorm]

evasion: obviously we can test this but the thing i am worried
about is it will pretty much bring one or two broken strats (some dual screener+dt/bping something or other) that don't really balance anything out and just bring us annoying shit to deal with.

ohko: I'm pretty firmly against testing this anywhere in the near future, it's not like stall is having a great time as it is and these kinda things really bring nothing to the table. resttalking ohko move users are pretty much guaranteed kills at one point or another.

Im not predicting an apocalypse, just a disappointment heh

 

[1059860]

Lapras @ Leftovers
Bold 252 HP, 68 Def, 188 SpD
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Sheer Cold
- Horn Drill/Fissure

This is just broken...

Not so much against sweepers but against walls such as Suicune, Slowbro, Milotic, Swampert, and many other standard walls, you don't need to bother to kill them with strategies... That and you're done with all walls. Now if you put up dual screens with Light Clay + Dual Screens and someone to BP Double Team to this Lapras... I'm talking about WOW...

 

[Veedrock]

OHKO isn't broken (well, not broken broken); it's just lame.

You don't have to invest anything into either attack stat, and you can one shot everything in the game. What's the point? Offense becomes useless, defense becomes useless. OHKO moves replace offense and ignore defense entirely, essentially making competitive pokemon, well, not competitive. Like I said, it destroys the metagame and makes the RNG decide the winner (more or less).

(I may be exaggerating a tiny bit, but exaggeration is how you let people on to the true "evil" of things. You never see how terrifying or wrong something is until you give an extreme example.)

EDIT: And like I said with Double Team, it essentially becomes rock paper scizors. DT, Anti-DT, and Anti-Anti-DT (normal). You go into a match and you either win by default, lose by default, or duke it out. I don't get pleasure from winning a match just because the opponent brought the wrong team to the table, nor do I enjoy losing a third of my matches for using the wrong team. It's luck and as Thorn said, over centralizing. Yes, it's one more strategy that would (on paper) allow for one more possiblity, but in reality it just shuts it down entirely.

Amen to Thorns. Didn't sugar coat it or provide reasoning; stated that it should be common sense (which it should).

 

[Thorns]

This is too stupid, Evasion will be, dare I say it, over centralizing. OHKO is just dumb, people can use something bulky and spam OHKO move, and then we have Articuno. where do you get off saying this kind of stuff?

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

The problem with the Sleep Talk/OHKO sets is that any Pokémon with Sturdy completely walls them and gets a free setup against them. Forretress, Skarmory, and Donphan are already pretty common, so it's not much of a stretch to prepare for these kinds of sets. Of course, there's no way to know whether the Lapras you're fighting is a OHKO Lapras or a special-attacking Lapras (or a mix), so it's not a foolproof solution.

I can kind of see this both ways. I have been lamed by the OHKO Lapras in the past, so I can't say I don't have hesitations about unleashing it on a metagame.

 

[obi]

I'd really like it if we started discussion Evasion and OHKOs separately. What we have now would be like talking about the ban on Salamence and Garchomp, as though the two are somehow related.

 

[foibles]

OHKO: in my opinion, this is barely even worth testing. The sleeptalk-OHKO thing is plain broken. When you think about it, walrien is probably a better canidate for the brokeness arguement because of ice body. Think about it. A pokemon that with sheer cold can one hit _any_ non study thing that gets in it's way. And with rest+1/8 recovery from hail and lefties... Urgggg
Evasion: seems like a better canidate for testing, although I think that unstoppable BP teams would kill any idea of legalizing it imediatly.

 

[Syberia]

Blame Game: Making Evasion moves fail isn't altering game mechanics?

No, it's the same thing as not allowing you to select them in team builder. If they fail, you won't use them.