On chance, banning moves and the Garchomp problem

[RABicle]

I'm not sure you get it RaikouLover. If you're up against some clown using Guillotine on their Pinsir REPEATADLY, you don't switch a wall in. You switch any fire pokemon in and use flamethrower. The reason we want OHKO moves unbanned is that they're not good moves. A spam Sheer Cold strategy is a fail strategy. The only reason anyone would ever use them is out of desperation. You're down to your last Pokémon, you're being walled and it's the one trick in your bag left. And that kind of thing would make battles more interesting and fun.

The Mind Reader, Sheer Cold Articuno arguments are pretty funny too actually. People were talking earlier about GameFreaks metagame, the battle tower game. Well they have one more slight variation on that; the Standard Cup metagame. In this one you cannot bring Pokemon over level 50 in. That means Articuno doesn't even have access to mind reader. I really like GF's standard cup metagame and I consider it superior to Smogon's.

 

[Syberia]

The thing is, it doesn't matter what you switch into that Pinsir, it still has a good shot of dying. Unless you send in Gengar, but Pinsir has Earthquake for that.

A level 50 metagame is hardly competative. Certain things that don't break the game, like Dragonite or Heatran, are banned simply on the basis of level. I'd rather ban individual moves than make multiple things that are not broken in any respect suddenly become banned as an unintended consequence of something else.

 

[RABicle]

Nah, Heatran is in....

EDIT; Wait a minute... how did I battle some guy with one? NVM

You're correct that Pokemon like Heatran and Tyranitar not meeting the criterea for Standard Cup is a weakness but I still feel that metagame is a lot less restrictive than Smogon's OU game.

 

[Syberia]

Caught at level 70. How is that allowed in a level 50 battle?

 

[tennisace]

The game lowers the level to 50 iirc.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'm not sure you get it RaikouLover. If you're up against some clown using Guillotine on their Pinsir REPEATADLY, you don't switch a wall in. You switch any fire pokemon in and use flamethrower. The reason we want OHKO moves unbanned is that they're not good moves. A spam Sheer Cold strategy is a fail strategy. The only reason anyone would ever use them is out of desperation. You're down to your last Pokémon, you're being walled and it's the one trick in your bag left. And that kind of thing would make battles more interesting and fun.

Ok and your Fire-type now has a 30% chance of getting OHKOd. On top of that, it could just use Close Combat or Earthquake instead and KO you straight up. Forcing the player to try to actually predict an OHKO move is absurd, especially when you consider the very good chance that the prediction will be rewarded with an instant KO even though you guessed right. People underestimate how much 30% actually is.

I completely disagree with your assessment that OHKO moves are not good and that the only reason people would use them is out of desperation. If they were allowed, I would use Spore/Spider Web/Mind Reader/Sheer Cold Smeargle on every single team I make. I would use Guillotine Gliscor to beat fighting types, Sheer Cold Lapras to beat Bulky Waters, etc etc. I can't really disagree that there are no drawbacks to using them, I just feel that the advantages of OHKO moves really outweigh the negatives.

I also disagree that OHKOs would make battles more interesting and fun in any situation. If I wanted a game where luck completely decided the outcome, I would spend my time flipping coins with my friends. Once again, 30% is a lot more than people think it is. You know how people bitch about critical hits? Imagine if the crit rate in pokemon was multiplied by FIVE and you would get an idea of how much luck this adds to the game and how much skill it detracts.

 

[yayece]

The thing is, it doesn't matter what you switch into that Pinsir, it still has a good shot of dying. Unless you send in Gengar, but Pinsir has Earthquake for that.

Am I missing something here?

That aside, I think you and a few others are operating on a faulty premise. i.e., OHKO moves and DT are actually good.

 

[earthpeople]

Pinsir has mold breaker.

 

[Ancien Régime]

Am I missing something here?

That aside, I think you and a few others are operating on a faulty premise. i.e., OHKO moves and DT are actually good.

And you have said nothing to disprove said premise. Try again.

See, people talk about "risk/reward" but when its 252/252 Lapras which can tank a lot of hits, Gliscor which can tank most physical hits, etc, etc, then all of a sudden, the risk of missing does NOT outweigh the reward of getting a KO.

And people, as they often do, think in a vacuum. Has anyone even thought of a team designed to maximize the success of the OHKO strategy? A bulky stall team, with lots of Reflect/Light Screen/Wish support to make sure the OHKOers stay alive and well, while providing ample switch-in opportunities? So not only is "countering" it a matter of luck, but you're now facing a team designed to minimize the bad effects of the luck going against them.

 

[Jonathan]

My response to the OP:

Here's how I see things:

- OHKO moves, Evasion modifiers, and "hax items" all bring an additional element of luck to the game.
- Allowing them ultimately means that you will be winning/losing a greater proportion of your battles down to luck.
- I play competitive Pokemon to win. The majority of the time, the "having fun" part for me is inherent in winning. However, if I lose in a really great battle where it all came down to skill, I still have a great time. But the majority of times when I lose, it's down to hax, and then I'm not having fun. Similarly, if I win a battle due to hax, I also don't feel too happy, although I feel admitedly better than when I lose to hax, as I'm sure is the case for everyone.
- What I conclude from the above two points (and keep in mind this is just for myself that I'm speaking) is that allowing OHKO moves, Evasion modifiers, and "hax items" will ultimately make the game less fun.

I would think that there are many people who agree with my statements above, perhaps to varying degrees. Now to add on:

I mentioned that for me, having fun is inherent in winning/losing a good, or at least a fair, battle. Of course, I also consider team building, talking about Pokemon on Smogon or over MSN, reading analyses, among other things, enjoyable components of my collective competitive battling experience. For all of the above, strategy is what makes them interesting for me. There is no luck in team building, people don't discuss luck when considering the viability of a new set. All in all, luck is not one of the reasons I enjoy playing Pokemon.

Personally I wouldn't mind playing a "metagame" where the amount of damage a move does is set, and there are no critical hits. Move accuracy is something different in my eyes. Between Flamethrower and Fire Blast, you have the choice between accuracy and power. This is a choice you get to make before battle during the other "fun parts" of Pokemon (team building, discussing certain sets, etc.). Ultimately it's something you can prepare for, whereas critical hits are not.

Really, I think the only need for critical hits is against Pokemon who stat up defensively with moves like Cosmic Power or Calm Mind. Otherwise such strategies are significantly harder to beat, and without crits you may go into stall wars much more often. So in my ideal world there would be a formula which determines your critical hit % chance based on the defensive boosts your opponent has, starting from 0% (so under normal circumstances critical hits don't happen).

Now I know that this is no longer Pokemon but really what is Pokemon, at least the Pokemon that we play? What makes it okay to ban OHKO moves but not ban crits? Obviously the fact that banning one is easy to do whereas banning the other fundamentally changes the game, as it's not something you can just "turn off" ingame. And banning crits on Shoddy would no longer make it a Pokemon simulator. But it would be interesting to have a mod server with the above implementations.

 

[shipship]

OHKO moves and DT are definitely broken.

People who say they suck don't know how to use them properly.

OHKO's ignore all attack and defense stats, so you don't need any attack EV's and can instead make a team of bulky 252/252 OHKO users which would be a bitch to take down. Sturdy blocks OHKO's but most sturdy pokemon have relatively common weaknesses.

 

[merubin]

Pinsir has mold breaker.

Gliscor is part-Flying, he's no Levitator.

 

[Syberia]

Guillotine OHKOs Gliscor, being Normal-type and all. Earthquake hits Gengar, who does have Levitate.

 

[NC]

Just as a point of note, OHKO moves would help to balance double team, because they ignore all evasion modifiers and if they are really as good as those supporting banning them say, then that severely hurts how good double team is.

Also, OHKO's are not 100% luck-based. First of all, you have articuno, who can play mind games/force switches with mind reader (ex. you use mind reader, they switch, on the switch you use mind reader again and while this happens they are taking residual damage from switching). Secondly, the sturdy ability pokemon are not that bad or limited. I would guess if OHKO moves were allowed that Lapras, Walrein and Articuno would be among the most popular users and all these are pretty reliably stopped by Magnezone (it usually uses Magnet Pull is not an argument against this) and to a lesser extent Forretress. The other OHKO users' OHKO moves do not affect gengar, who is used often anyway. You can argue that this "forces" you to have a sturdy ability pokemon and a ghost on every team, but I don't see it as being any different from being "forced" to use 2-3 garchomp "counters" if you are trying to make any sort of a defensive team.

For the record, I am on the fence about allowing DT, because I can see it "taking over" the metagame, and while it does have its counters, they are limited and could drastically reduce variety among teams. However, I completely supporting allowing (or test at least?) OHKO moves, because I believe they are good, but able to be stopped and aren't any more "button-mashing luck" than critical hits or 10% freezes.

 

[Syberia]

Just as a point of note, OHKO moves would help to balance double team, because they ignore all evasion modifiers and if they are really as good as those supporting banning them say, then that severely hurts how good double team is.

The logic of "you have to use something that is luck-based to counter something that is equally luck-based" has no place in the competitive community, imo.

Also, OHKO's are not 100% luck-based. First of all, you have articuno, who can play mind games/force switches with mind reader (ex. you use mind reader, they switch, on the switch you use mind reader again and while this happens they are taking residual damage from switching). Secondly, the sturdy ability pokemon are not that bad or limited. I would guess if OHKO moves were allowed that Lapras, Walrein and Articuno would be among the most popular users and all these are pretty reliably stopped by Magnezone (it usually uses Magnet Pull is not an argument against this) and to a lesser extent Forretress. The other OHKO users' OHKO moves do not affect gengar, who is used often anyway. You can argue that this "forces" you to have a sturdy ability pokemon and a ghost on every team, but I don't see it as being any different from being "forced" to use 2-3 garchomp "counters" if you are trying to make any sort of a defensive team.

Which is exactly the reason Garchomp's tier status has come into question so heavily as of late. And it would not force you to have "a sturdy pokemon" on every team; it would force you to have a sturdy Magnezone on every team. There's a big difference - in one situation, you must have one of a certain group of pokemon on your team to avoid losing (sort of how the prevalence of Dragon moves, especially Draco Meteor and Outrage, dictate that you should probably have at least one Steel-type), and in the other, you are forced to have one single pokemon on your team to serve a very specific purpose.

For the record, I am on the fence about allowing DT, because I can see it "taking over" the metagame, and while it does have its counters, they are limited and could drastically reduce variety among teams. However, I completely supporting allowing (or test at least?) OHKO moves, because I believe they are good, but able to be stopped and aren't any more "button-mashing luck" than critical hits or 10% freezes.

There is an inherent difference between using OHKO moves and getting a crit or a freeze. An OHKO is the entire point of using the move, causing the move itself to become luck-based. A burn, freeze, or crit is simply a side effect of using a move you would have used anyways, for the damage. No one uses Ice Beam or Flamethrower solely for that 10% burn or freeze chance, unless they're terribly desperate, they use it for the damage, which is the same and happens every time.

 

[NC]

The logic of "you have to use something that is luck-based to counter something that is equally luck-based" has no place in the competitive community, imo.

I realize this, I was just pointing this out to show that if they did happen to both be allowed, they could somewhat balance each other out. It doesn't necessarily make me want to unban double team.

Which is exactly the reason Garchomp's tier status has come into question so heavily as of late. And it would not force you to have "a sturdy pokemon" on every team; it would force you to have a sturdy Magnezone on every team. There's a big difference - in one situation, you must have one of a certain group of pokemon on your team to avoid losing (sort of how the prevalence of Dragon moves, especially Draco Meteor and Outrage, dictate that you should probably have at least one Steel-type), and in the other, you are forced to have one single pokemon on your team to serve a very specific purpose.

Magnezone is not the only pokemon that works for this. I'm guessing most lapras/articuno/walrein would run ice beam if they had an "attack," but even if they use surf, pokemon like forretress, shuckle, steelix, probopass, aggron, bastiodon, along with magnezone can take it, since the OHKO user will most likely not be putting any EVs into special attack (they will likely max out defenses). All of the above pokemon have their own way of dealing with surfing OHKO users also. Bastiodon and possibly aggron (who has stab stone edge) can easily metal burst them if they stay in, forretress can explode or hit them with super effective rock slide, steelix and probopass can do the same, except with stone edge or power gem respectably. Fianlly shuckle can easily outstall any of these with toxic/rest, especially in a sandstorm. This is not one counter, this is a group of counters, just like the small group of steel who stop outrage/draco meteor. Also, if I missed a potentially viable/dangerous OHKO user that isn't beaten by gengar/prediction, let me know, but I think the three I listed would be the "main" ones and all have huge problems switching in due to stealth rock.

There is an inherent difference between using OHKO moves and getting a crit or a freeze. An OHKO is the entire point of using the move, causing the move itself to become luck-based. A burn, freeze, or crit is simply a side effect of using a move you would have used anyways, for the damage. No one uses Ice Beam or Flamethrower solely for that 10% burn or freeze chance, unless they're terribly desperate, they use it for the damage, which is the same and happens every time.

Even though the result is more significant, getting a 30% OHKO is not any more "lucky" (in terms of probability) than getting a 30% paralyze or flinch or hitting an air slashing togekiss while you are paralyzed. I think your problem is not that the move is luck based, but that the result is too stong. I am saying that the result is strong, but it is counterable, which cannot be said about other threats in the game that are allowed. I would also like to note that critical hits can often have similar extremely strong result while the probably of them happening is much lower, making them even more "luck" based than OHKOs.

 

[Ancien Régime]

However, unlike "steel types" which encompass a lot of great pokemon like Jirachi and Metagross, the "OHKO" counters you mention, other than Forretress and Sturdy Magnezone are absolutely terrible.

 

[NC]

However, unlike "steel types" which encompass a lot of great pokemon like Jirachi and Metagross, the "OHKO" counters you mention, other than Forretress and Sturdy Magnezone are absolutely terrible.

Lapras's surf (all with max HP/Special defense because you would be using these to counter special attacking OHKO users):
vs. Bastiodon: 33-38% (22-26% in sandstorm)
vs. Steelix: 48-57% *bad counter but if lapras uses ice beam, it works
vs. Shuckle: 29-35% (20-24% in SS)
vs. Probopass: 31-36% (21-25% in SS)
vs. Aggron: 52-61% (35-41% in SS)

Lapras, and to an even greater extent articuno and alrein cannot do very much, or even any significant damage to any of these along with magnezone and forretress in a sandstorm except steelix and sort-of aggron if you invest in special defense, making all of these perfectly viable counters. Along with this, most Lapras and Walrein would be running Ice beam so garchomp doesn't "automatically" sweep you if you miss with sheer cold, and ice is a better attacking type. Fianlly, all of these pokemon would likely force a switch (or hit with stab super effective attacks) making it hard for the OHKO user to come back in due to stealth rock. All of these counter pokemon are physically defense-based too so physical OHKO useres will also have trouble beating them.

 

[Syberia]

Considering the number of Sturdy pokemon that resist Ice, and that the purpose of Lapras/Walrein is to OHKO things, I'd say Ice is not "the best attacking type" in this particular instance, but Surf is actually the better move to run.

Now try to counter, say, Nidoking. Notice how all the viable Sturdy pokemon just went out the window.

EDIT: Nvm, apparently Tauros no longer gets Horn Drill or Fissure.

 

[NC]

Now try to counter a Tauros, and see how many of those "OHKO counters" just went out the window. Nearly all of them are Ground-weak, many 4x.

Use gengar and/or steelix/forretress.

 

[Syberia]

I just checked serebii, and apparently Tauros no longer learns Horn Drill or Fissure. But, Zen Headbutt can take out Gengar without too much issue, it can run Fire Blast for Steelix/Forretress, if it wishes.

Nidoking works the same way, though.

 

[NC]

The thing with nidoking is that it isn't bulky. It's VERY risky for it to be using horn drill and missing; I know I wouild much rather be the opponent of a horn-drill nidoking than using one. Plus, dugtrio can come in on it and have a 100% revenge kill if nidoking does kill something.

We can keep naming off specific pokemon, but my point is that there is no OHKO user that does not have a very viable, "close to" 100% counter.

 

[Syberia]

So just to counter the threat of all the OHKO pokemon in the game, your theoretical team is going to be:

Magnezone (Sturdy), Dugtrio, Gengar/Dusknoir, possibly Shuckle, [2-3 other pokemon]

The thing is, now that you're throwing specialized counters to certain OHKO pokemon around, you're going to have to carry two or more of them on every team, because you don't know which OHKO pokemon you're going to be seeing in any given battle. And if you don't have the correct counter, all you can pretty much do is hope for your opponent to miss or you're fucked.

I'm going to have to disagree with you and say its better to be on the giving end of any OHKO move than the receiving end. On one hand, you're most likely going to be hitting a switch-in, or hiding behind a Substitute, or something of that nature, while on the other end you're either going to be carrying around a bunch of overspecialized OHKO counters that are probably deadweight otherwise, or else just sitting there and hoping the RNG favors you over your opponent. Neither are competitive, imo.

It would come down to one of two things - either luck, or else battles being even more decided by what teams the two players were carrying, before the battle even starts, than they are now.

 

[NC]

So just to counter the threat of all the OHKO pokemon in the game, your theoretical team is going to be:

Magnezone (Sturdy), Dugtrio, Gengar/Dusknoir, possibly Shuckle, [2-3 other pokemon]

The thing is, now that you're throwing specialized counters to certain OHKO pokemon around, you're going to have to carry two or more of them on every team, because you don't know which OHKO pokemon you're going to be seeing in any given battle. And if you don't have the correct counter, all you can pretty much do is hope for your opponent to miss or you're fucked.

I'm going to have to disagree with you and say its better to be on the giving end of any OHKO move than the receiving end. On one hand, you're most likely going to be hitting a switch-in, or hiding behind a Substitute, or something of that nature, while on the other end you're either going to be carrying around a bunch of overspecialized OHKO counters that are probably deadweight otherwise, or else just sitting there and hoping the RNG favors you over your opponent. Neither are competitive, imo.

No, I do not find all the OHKO pokemon in the game to be as intimidating as others, so I would not run all those pokemon on my team. My point is that you "can" run these to stop OHKO users if you want, but I personally don't find the 30% accuracy very frightening so I would use something like forretress, who beats most OHKO users, but does many other things for the team. As long as you have a sturdy (ability) pokemon and something with good attacking power, prediction can always beat the OHKO users without all these "perfect" counters.

It would come down to one of two things - either luck, or else battles being even more decided by what teams the two players were carrying, before the battle even starts, than they are now.

A lot of the time, it is like this anyway as long as both players are skilled :s.

 

[Syberia]

No, I do not find all the OHKO pokemon in the game to be as intimidating as others, so I would not run all those pokemon on my team. My point is that you "can" run these to stop OHKO users if you want, but I personally don't find the 30% accuracy very frightening so I would use something like forretress, who beats most OHKO users, but does many other things for the team. As long as you have a sturdy (ability) pokemon and something with good attacking power, prediction can always beat the OHKO users without all these "perfect" counters.

Then you would leave the result of the match, or at least a good portion of it, up to luck if you face an OHKOer that you were not expecting to face.

A lot of the time, it is like this anyway as long as both players are skilled :s.

No, a match between two good players rarely comes down to what teams they have (it can, but that is rarely the case); it usually comes down to either one good play or one bad play by one side that allows the other to get, and hopefully keep, the advantage.