forcing the player to "predict" (codeword for guess) when they will or will not use an OHKO move is asinine. Turning the entire match into a guessing game makes it depend entirely on luck and would remove any semblance of skill from it. If "you should just guess when OHKO moves will be used" is the best argument for allowing them, I don't see how you can possibly justify wanting them.
First of all prediction =/= random guessing. Should "you just guess" when CB garchomp uses outrage or lose anything that isn't a steel? If so, does that mean it should be banned? You have to predict around it. Secondly this is a huge overexaggeration of what OHKO moves do. They are not "turning the entire match into a guessing game" any more than choice users already do, if you refer to prediction as "guessing." They are just adding an element to the game.
Also for the record my main reason for wanting to allow OHKO moves is not "you should just guess when OHKO moves will be used." It is that A) nothing extremely defensively sound gets them (if cresselia got sheer cold, my opinion would be completely different), B) they are all extremely counterable with any sturdy user, and in addition a ghost (for horn drill/guillotine), or any levitator (for fissure), and can be predicted around, C) they would increase variety and give previously unused pokemon a use, D) They are not any more luck-based than many other moves/items that are currently allowed in the metagame.
How are Lapras and Walrein beaten by Dugtrio? lol.
I was referring to the less-bulky OHKO users that Syberia was talking about, which lapras and walrein would obviously not be a part of.
30% is a lot more than you think it is. 3 out of every 10 tries, you will lose no matter how well prepared you are and you will lose no matter how well you have been playing. Do you want to send your Starmie in to counter my Guillotine Gliscor? Go ahead. I dare you.
I'll just send in my genagr, forretress or magnezone (and use magnet rise). If I must send in starmie, I'll do it. I'd rather go with the 70% odds than the 30%. The majority of the time, I will be thinking that I am glad you didn't earthquake starmie.
Except they are both altering the game in ways that would completely deviate from game mechanics. If you take away Serene Grace Blissey, you are not playing pokemon anymore.
That is no different from saying "if you take away certain moves, you are not playing pokemon anymore." Again, for the record, I do not support banning of OHKO moves in any way, I just said lapras in that post to clarify my point.
We can't eliminate all aspects of luck from the game, secondary effects, critical hits, move accuracy, hell the damage calculation itself has some randomness in it. However, by eliminating things like OHKO moves and Evasion boosting moves, we are trying to reach a goal in minimizing luck.
All those thing could be eliminated but aren't because we want to still be playing pokemon. This is no different.
By preventing moves that would reduce the game to a roulette spin, the game's more skill-based. You can say Sturdy and Haze eliminate those two major issues, but you've still centralized the metagame to luck based tactics and the direct counter to those tactics.
I said I am against (or at least neutral) allowed double team, and there are enough viable sturdy pokemon that it isn't overcentralizing.
And my point with Walrein was that pokemon have 4 move slots, and Sturdy pokemon being able to stop 1 doesn't mean they are a counter.
So what can OHKO walrein do to forretress or magnezone (among others including probopass, etc.) then? Hp Fire? Then you still can't do anything to probopass. Anyway, forcing a walrein to use hp fire is enough to call something a counter.
what about focus sash? ohko moves don't bypass it, so that's another way to prevent dying from them. (I'm don't really want them unbanned, just throwing that out there).
There you go, thats another counter, along with substitute, which is even better.
