On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

[McCoolDude]

So I've finally had enough opportunity to play in a dmax-less meta enough to speak on gdarm.

My initial thoughts were that gdarm would get a bit weaker after a dmax ban, and that was.. half right. Gdarm is weaker for people who play it incorrectly and need an "out" (choice locking into EQ and having corvi come out, only to dmax into max flare). However, dmax was also a strong defensive counterplay for darmanitan, and losing that means that well-played darmanitans are extremely difficult to pin down, and often just relatedly spread chip with u-turn until late game. With defog support (mandibuzz or corviknight typically), this makes for an extremely difficult to beat combination.

I think the net result was a buff to gdarm with dmax, as now there are two main strategies I've seen around it (and one somewhat memey strategy).

1. You build your team with no defensive answer to darm and something capable of outspeeding and OHKOing it, or something with priority. For many of my (and others) teams, this is Conkeldurr. Conk can use the revenge turn to take chip, a KO, or defog against the opposing team, since it isn't in real danger from gdarm's scarf set, and gdarm is at risk of OHKO by Mach punch. This means that every time darm comes in, it either u-turns or gets a kill.
2. You build your team with one of the handful of gdarm defensive answers and spam hazards to force your opponent to keep clearing them instead of bringing in darm.
3. You use eject button pex + dugtrio and hope you get the roll and you didn't get the prediction wrong.

All of these strategies can work, but they're very predictable and almost always favor the darm player.

If we look at the ability in a vacuum, it is not broken. It's a straight worse version of huge power. If we look at the Mon in a vacuum, it is not broken. Zen mode is extremely easy to beat with any priority (don't let it set up a sub). It is only the combination of Galarian Darmanitan and Gorilla Tactics that is broken.

I think the simplest and most direct option for fixing the issue is to ban Darminitan to Ubers. Traditional tiering philosphy is to look at a mon with its best set (and tactics is undoubtedly the best set), outside of multiple abusers of a single thing. I don't believe a change to tiering philosophy should be made to save zen mode Darminitan.

As for Suspect vs Quickban, I'm always in favor of a vote. I know this takes longer and is annoying for people who believe (as I do) that a vote would undoubtedly result in a majority ban, I just believe the perception of an ban that was not voted on by the players is usually a negative one. That said, I rarely go for Reqs, so Quickban vs suspect doesn't super affect me.

 

[Zapperrix]

ill ignore my ho-oh example for now because i literally forgot entei also learms sacred fire so that point is moot now.

i still do not get how the aegislash situation would be any different to wanting to ban gorilla tactics. just because its a move? i mean i am sure a strong case could be made to keep aegislash unbanned in both gen 6 and gen 7 with a king's shield ban. and no it is not a complex ban because it literally is a move that is only learned by aegislash andn nothing else. however aegislash was correctly banned in both gens because it was deemed that, as a whole, it was unquestionably broken.

i still think banning gorilla tactics will set a horrible precedence and will also create problems in the future. imagine we ban gorilla tactics and keep zen mode darmanitan. what happens if one pokemon gets gorilla tactics as a hidden ability (and is clearly not broken with it) or a pokemon is released which only has gorilla tactics as an usable ability? does that pokemon get automatically banned without a chance to showcase its potential effects in the metage or de we unban gorilla tactics and THEN ban darmanitan-galar as a whole? idk, it just sounds icnredibly messy

Smeargle also gets King's Shield. I Also already outlined how moves are only banned for inducing RNG, which King's Shield does not. So it is different because moves and abilities are not tiered the same, and King's Shield does not fall within what Smogon constitutes as ban worthy.

Also, bans can be reevaluated, even in the middle of the gen. Remember how UU in gen 7 banned Mega Houndoom because it was broken in Sun? Then they unbanned Mega Houndoom and banned Drought to be consistent due to the fact Drizzle was already banned. For that reason, i don't think we should speak in hypothetical scenarios about a new Pokemon getting Gorilla Tactics as an ability, because even if it did happen, we could tier it accordingly.

 

[Kioskate]

Smeargle also gets King's Shield. I Also already outlined how moves are only banned for inducing RNG, which King's Shield does not. So it is different because moves and abilities are not tiered the same, and King's Shield does not fall within what Smogon constitutes as ban worthy.

Aegislash is the only pokemon that gets King's Shield in Sword and Shield, are you saying if Aegislash is determined to be overpowered later we should suspect King's Shield? Baton Pass has no RNG and is banned.

Banning Gorilla Tactics is not equivalent to banning Power Construct because Power Construct is overpowered while Gorilla Tactics is not. After Zygarde was banned Power Construct remained banned, even though Zygarde 10% remained.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I Also already outlined how moves are only banned for inducing RNG, which King's Shield does not.

I'm not entirely sure that's true, since there are plenty of moves that induce RNG that aren't banned but, for the sake of argument, we'll say it is.
And I'll say abilities are only banned if the ability gives a Pokemon access to another form that is deemed broken (Power Construct), is noncompetitive (moody, STag, and apparently NOT Arena Trap) or is inherently broken regardless of the Pokemon it's on (no examples).

Does the ability give Darmanitan access to a broken form? No. Is the ability noncompetitive? No. Is the ability inherently broken? We have seen the consensus is no. So why are we entertaining the removal of it rather than the Pokemon?

We do not, have not, and should not, ban abilities to cater to a broken Pokemon so that they are no longer seen as broken.
inclusivity be damned

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

Please avoid silly hypotheticals that aren't relevant to the actual topic at hand, Galarian Darmanitan.

Sorry, I was trying to explain why Gorilla Tactics is nothing like Shadow Tag and not worthy of being suspected.

EDIT: On that note, can we get an official mod declaration to stop trying to argue for an ability ban when said ability is clearly not broken itself?

 

[tmacbalanced]

This post got too many likes (which means too many more people will complain about Gorilla Tactics & the discussion has gone on long enough) and I'm surprised someone hasn't said anything about these points yet.

I don't know why people keep saying "we don't ban to nerf pokemon", yet the Arena Trap ban last Gen was specifically to nerf Dugtrio,

Dugtrio was the only mon (aside from Trapinch & Diglett, whom has trash stats anyways) to get Arena Trap. Clearly Arena Trap was the broken part of Dugtrio since Dugtrio in of itself is just a mediocre pokemon. That's why Arena Trap was banned in gen 7 & even suspected in gen 6. Anything else with mediocre stats & higher with a decent enough movepool/typing would be too broken with Arena Trap because, that said mediocre pokemon is bound to be able to beat a relevant mon in the tier w/o any practical ways of going around it.

How about the Swagger ban in gen 6 to nerf Klefki and other Prankster users?

Swagger also received a buff in gen 6 and being able to swagger any mon with priority and relying on confusion to beat an opponents is noncompetitive. Swagger was unbanned in gen 7 when it received a massive nerf in confusion chance; it also helped that pranksters users couldn't affect dark types. Which means there was counterplay.

What about the Power Construct ban last gen?

Turning into Zygarde-100% when below 50% HP is a really tough strategy to beat, as getting there can be easy & dealing with Zygarde-100% is a tough hurdle due to it's massive stats. True, the ability can only be applied to Zygarde-10% & 50% but, it's still noncompetitive due to the massive boost in power & bulk, and how easy it was to bringing out an ubers mon to the field. Any ability that allows you to summon an ubers mon with ease is obviously noncompetitive.

Moving unto your example about banning moves, moves have only been banned if they induce an unhealthy amount of RNG (i.e. Sheer Cold, Double Team, Swagger in Gen 6, etc). King's Shield and Sacred Fire are great moves, but neither induce RNG, so banning them doesn't fit with how Smogon bans things.

Exactly why Swagger and Arena Trap were banned.

I couldn't talk about gen 5 sand rush because I know nothing about it but, read up on it. Read up on past bans and the actual reasons why they got banned.

So for all of you wanting Gorilla Tactics banned instead of Darmantian-Galar, understand that smogon is not about that & neither is most of community. It doesn't matter if you can save a mon, what matters is consistency. And smogon + most of the community is trying to be consistent.

 

[Zapperrix]

Aegislash is the only pokemon that gets King's Shield in Sword and Shield, are you saying if Aegislash is determined to be overpowered later we should suspect King's Shield? Baton Pass has no RNG and is banned.

Banning Gorilla Tactics is not equivalent to banning Power Construct because Power Construct is overpowered while Gorilla Tactics is not. After Zygarde was banned Power Construct remained banned, even though Zygarde 10% remained.

Baton pass is a special case in that it created a degenerate strategy, which is the same reason why swagger was banned back in Gen 6. I've already mentioned that King's shield does not create a degenerate strategy, so it has no business being banned.

I don't understand why you mentioned Zygarde 10% remaining after Zygarde's ban because they're two separate Pokemon. Power Construct was an ability ban, so anything that has the ability can no longer use it.

Not once have I mentioned support of banning moves to keep a Pokemon, I've only supported banned abilities that are busted on most if not all users. This applies to both Gorilla Tactics and Power Construct.

I'm not entirely sure that's true, since there are plenty of moves that induce RNG that aren't banned but, for the sake of argument, we'll say it is.
And I'll say abilities are only banned if the ability gives a Pokemon access to another form that is deemed broken (Power Construct), is noncompetitive (moody, STag, and apparently NOT Arena Trap) or is inherently broken regardless of the Pokemon it's on (no examples).

Is it noncompetitive? No. Does it give Darmanitan access to a broken form? No. Is the ability inherently broken? We have seen the consensus is no. So why are we entertaining the removal of it rather than the Pokemon?

We do not, have not, and should not, ban abilities to cater to a broken Pokemon so that they are no longer seen as broken.
inclusivity be damned

Look at the moves that are banned, the only one that's not RNG based is baton pass (which is an outlier). As for abilities, there have been bans that aren't within your three examples. Look at the Sand Rush ban in Gen 5, that was clearly done to nerf Excadrill. Or look at how UU banned weather in Gen 7.

My entire point has been this, if an ability is broken on the majority of users (or in this case, the only user), then I think it's fine to ban the ability.

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

Baton pass is a special case in that it created a degenerate strategy, which is the same reason why swagger was banned back in Gen 6. I've already mentioned that King's shield does not create a degenerate strategy, so it has no business being banned.

I don't understand why you mentioned Zygarde 10% remaining after Zygarde's ban because they're two separate Pokemon. Power Construct was an ability ban, so anything that has the ability can no longer use it.

Not once have I mentioned support of banning moves to keep a Pokemon, I've only supported banned abilities that are busted on most if not all users. This applies to both Gorilla Tactics and Power Construct.


Look at the moves that are banned, the only one that's not RNG based is baton pass (which is an outlier). As for abilities, there have been bans that aren't within your three examples. Look at the Sand Rush ban in Gen 5, that was clearly done to nerf Excadrill. Or look at how UU banned weather in Gen 7.

My entire point has been this, if an ability is broken on the majority of users (or in this case, the only user), then I think it's fine to ban the ability.

Power Construct was banned because Zygarde Complete was banned, and Power Construct was merely the path to get to that broken Pokemon. Sand Rush was banned in Gen 5 because weather was a constant effect. It never ended and could be set up as needed. Under those conditions, Sand Rush was broken, and even then I'm not totally advocating that ban. Mistakes happen, and just because a ban occurred doesn't mean it was the right course of action.

Meanwhile, Weather setters were waaaaaaay too powerful for what they did in the lower tiers, mainly in terms of team support. The reason we sometimes see Pokemon that would otherwise be in UU or lower in OU on Weather teams is because without said Weather, they're not powerful enough for OU, but with, an entire team of UU or lower Pokemon can actually stand up to OU mons. The key thing there is Weather affects the entire team, not merely being isolated to breaking one single Pokemon.

Also before you bring up Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, those abilities are inherently broken due to denying a fundamental gameplay element. Gorilla Tactics is just a power boost with a drawback of only using two items. For the love of Arceus, stop arguing for it.

 

[Astra]

Most of the stuff I'm going to say has probably already been elaborated here many times, but I figured I may as well throw my hat into the ring.

Firstly, as much as I would like for there to be a suspect test solely so I get one step closer to a full blue badge set, I think the safest and smartest thing to do at the moment is to quickban Galarian Darmanitan. It's honestly such an overcentralizing Pokemon that's obviously a problem in the metagame, putting so much strain on teambuilding where even the best checks to it can't withstand it, particularly it with Choice Band. I can argue that it's causing a problem in OU almost (note "almost") as big as Dynamax, but Dynamax most likely got a suspect test because it was the defining mechanic in SS, so quickbanning might've been troublesome. The community overall, however, views Galarian Darmanitan as troublesome, with those arguing against banning it lacking any real evidence that it's completely fine and at the same level as all the other Pokemon in OU. When the Pokemon can literally 2HKO a Pokemon that's supposed to check it and make switching so discouraging, it really is on another level. As such, Galarian Darmanitan definitely needs something done with it. Quickbanning seems like the optimal thing to do, but I won't object to a suspect test; however, SPL kind of gets in the way of that.

Secondly, banning Galarian Darmanitan as a whole should be done rather than just banning Gorilla Tactics. It's just more in line with Smogon's tiering policy. Like mentioned before, banning abilities like Shadow Tag and Moody were pretty big exceptions, as they were uncompetitive in a sense that they don't take much skill at all, Moody being the main suspect in the crime. Gorilla Tactics isn't at all like these abilities because there's much better abilities out there like mentioned before and it's an ability that probably would take some skill to use had it not been slapped on a Pokemon with base 140 Attack. It doesn't make sense to ban an abilities that's not broken at all when the problem is the Pokemon with that ability that makes it so overcentralizing. Besides, I highly doubt any of you would actually use Zen Mode seriously.

And now, my excuse to post this again:

peak perfection

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Look at the moves that are banned, the only one that's not RNG based is baton pass (which is an outlier). As for abilities, there have been bans that aren't within your three examples. Look at the Sand Rush ban in Gen 5, that was clearly done to nerf Excadrill. Or look at how UU banned weather in Gen 7.

My entire point has been this, if an ability is broken on the majority of users (or in this case, the only user), then I think it's fine to ban the ability.

My point was that there are moves that aren't banned now that "induce RNG". But that's mostly besides the point. As DialgaTheTimeLord pointed out, Weather was permanent in BW, which resulted in Excadrill initially being banned, and after several years, finally being unbanned and banning Sand Rush instead. THAT is an outlier. UU banned weather beacause it... gave access to something broken... I was hoping you would catch on to where I was going with why we ban abilities, but I guess I missed the mark there.

And finally, the last point in your response...
That just isn't true, and even people who are wanting to ban Tactics over the Pokemon know it's not true. Gorilla Tactics is not a broken ability. It just isn't. That alone is the reason we should ban the Pokemon and not the ability. There's really not much more that needs to be said without talking in circles. Which, two posts in, we are already doing...

Think that says more than enough, but I digress.

 

[Zapperrix]

Dugtrio was the only mon (aside from Trapinch & Diglett, whom has trash stats anyways) to get Arena Trap. Clearly Arena Trap was the broken part of Dugtrio since Dugtrio in of itself is just a mediocre pokemon. That's why Arena Trap was banned in gen 7 & even suspected in gen 6. Anything else with mediocre stats & higher with a decent enough movepool/typing would be too broken with Arena Trap because, that said mediocre pokemon is bound to be able to beat a relevant mon in the tier w/o any practical ways of going around it.

Keep in mind, that this proves my point as to why Arena Trap was banned in Gen 7, and retroactively got banned in Gens 5 and 6. It was done to nerf a Pokemon that was proving to be problematic. Remember how Dugrtio itself was suspected in Gen 7? That suspect ended with Dugtrio being
legal. It took an additional suspect for an Arena Trap ban to take place.

Swagger also received a buff in gen 6 and being able to swagger any mon with priority and relying on confusion to beat an opponents is noncompetitive. Swagger was unbanned in gen 7 when it received a massive nerf in confusion chance; it also helped that pranksters users couldn't affect dark types. Which means there was counterplay.

Swagger was never buffed in Gen 6 at all, it was still 90% accuracy, the issue with swagger was the fact that prankster users could abuse the move and cheese games. So instead of banning the users or the ability, they banned the move to stop the cheese. Keep in mind, it was also retroactively banned in Gen 5 due to prankster users being able to cheese in a similar fashion.

Turning into Zygarde-100% when below 50% HP is a really tough strategy to beat, as getting there can be easy & dealing with Zygarde-100% is a tough hurdle due to it's massive stats. True, the ability can only be applied to Zygarde-10% & 50% but, it's still noncompetitive due to the massive boost in power & bulk, and how easy it was to bringing out an ubers mon to the field. Any ability that allows you to summon an ubers mon with ease is obviously noncompetitive.

Power Construct doubled HP, increased SPA by 10, and lowered speed by 10; There was no massive boost to power whatsoever. The ban of power construct still proves my point of how they banned an ability to nerf a Pokemon.

I couldn't talk about gen 5 sand rush because I know nothing about it but, read up on it. Read up on past bans and the actual reasons why they got banned.

So for all of you wanting Gorilla Tactics banned instead of Darmantian-Galar, understand that smogon is not about that & neither is most of community. It doesn't matter if you can save a mon, what matters is consistency. And smogon + most of the community is trying to be consistent.

Believe me, I know why all those bans took place. As for consistency, banning Gorilla Tactics would still be consistent as it's an ability that's proven to be problematic on all of it's users.

This post got too many likes (which means too many more people will complain about Gorilla Tactics & the discussion has gone on long enough) and I'm surprised someone hasn't said anything about these points yet.

Saying a post got too many likes because you disagree is childish in all honesty.

Power Construct was banned because Zygarde Complete was banned, and Power Construct was merely the path to get to that broken Pokemon. Sand Rush was banned in Gen 5 because weather was a constant effect. It never ended and could be set up as needed. Under those conditions, Sand Rush was broken, and even then I'm not totally advocating that ban. Mistakes happen, and just because a ban occurred doesn't mean it was the right course of action.

Meanwhile, Weather setters were waaaaaaay too powerful for what they did in the lower tiers, mainly in terms of team support. The reason we sometimes see Pokemon that would otherwise be in UU or lower in OU on Weather teams is because without said Weather, they're not powerful enough for OU, but with, an entire team of UU or lower Pokemon can actually stand up to OU mons. The key thing there is Weather affects the entire team, not merely being isolated to breaking one single Pokemon.

Also before you bring up Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, those abilities are inherently broken due to denying a fundamental gameplay element. Gorilla Tactics is just a power boost with a drawback of only using two items. For the love of Arceus, stop arguing for it.

Mid battle transformations are not tiered separately from the base form. As for the Sand Rush ban, weather being constant doesn't mean anything when the ban's main purpose was to keep Excadrill in BW OU.

The reason I even brought up the weather bans in UU from last gen was the illustrate the fact that bans can always be reevaluated, even after the generation ends.

My point was that there are moves that aren't banned now that "induce RNG". But that's mostly besides the point. As DialgaTheTimeLord pointed out, Weather was permanent in BW, which resulted in Excadrill initially being banned, and after several years, finally being unbanned and banning Sand Rush instead. THAT is an outlier. UU banned weather beacause it... gave access to something broken... I was hoping you would catch on to where I was going with why we ban abilities, but I guess I missed the mark there.

Incorrect, Excadrill was unbanned when they changed the Swift Swim + Drizzle clause to a "Weather + Speed Ability Clause". They went and banned the ability after that fact.

Not gonna comment any more on this, as I believe I've made my points clear. Whatever the Council does, I hope it's through a Council vote rather than a Suspect.

 

[Karxrida]

Y'all pro-GT banners bringing up Arena Trap don't seem to realize that Diglett and fucking Trapinch were experimented with as Dugtrio substitutes and actually saw legitimate results.

Arena Trap was banned for being busted, not to nerf Dugtrio. Stop bullshitting.

 

[earl]

Arena Trap was banned because people were still using Pinch/Diglett on stall when dugtrio wasn’t legal proving the ability is universally problematic.

also Power Construct’s doubled HP is a massive power boost, Zygarde Complete was an A+ rank wall in Ubers. Just cuz it didn’t get higher attack doesn’t mean it didn’t get stronger

The second another Gorilla Tactics mon is released (theoretically) this ban will look like a complete fucking joke just to preserve a gimmicky belly drum sweeper

 

[Empress Mobile]

I think people suggesting a GT ban must have missed key context when previous bans were implemented. Broken abilities are often assessed as such because we can see what happens when the "next best thing" is given a chance to perform. Diglett, Wynaut, Gothorita, Trapinch come up as obvious examples. Another example is when Ninetales dropped to SM NU, a Pokemon as pathetic as Vulpix was able to replicate total domination of the tier due to Drought. A counterexample is Gigalith, which dropped to NU and was banned because its ability pushed it over the edge, yet the next best thing, Hippopotas, could not even begin to replicate the same results in NU. The argument of "no collateral damage" is not based in any actual tiering policy and is frankly absurd. There is no next best thing, but we know GT is not broken because there are objectively better abilities that aren't broken.

 

[Rarycaris]

For the love of Arceus, stop arguing for it.

I find this repeated exhortation for people to shut up because you're so obviously right quite rude, tbh. It's fair to feel strongly about this, but the arguments made in favour of a GT ban aren't so obviously unreasonable as to warrant this level of hostility.

I think the core thing separating Gorilla Tactics from, say, Drought, is less that the ability is less inherently broken, and more that the Pokemon that are broken by the ability aren't the same ones who actually get the ability. Same deal with Shadow Tag. It makes more sense to ban broken support elements instead of the Pokemon, because the Pokemon itself isn't really broken even with its best set; it's more that it's too good at breaking other things. In other words, removing the broken element is an indirect nerf to *other Pokemon*, not the Pokemon actually bringing the support to the table, and we do it because banning everything made broken by the support element is grossly impractical.

When we talk about "the ability is broken, not the Pokemon", I think this is what we usually mean in practice, as opposed to something like "the ability is too large a portion of the Pokemon's power level". The only exceptions, like evasion, tend to be ones that are uncompetitive in that they make RNG too much of a defining aspect for the outcome of the game.

It's pretty rare nowadays for a whole Pokemon to be banned for having support capability too strong; the only example I can think of that's more recent than gen 4 is Deoxys (and Mega Gengar, but the Shadow Tag ban also covers that). I think this represents a significant but mostly unacknowledged shift in tiering philosophy, and one which should inform our policy about "what the broken element is" going forward.

 

[Dece1t]

This post got too many likes (which means too many more people will complain about Gorilla Tactics & the discussion has gone on long enough) and I'm surprised someone hasn't said anything about these points yet.

Dugtrio was the only mon (aside from Trapinch & Diglett, whom has trash stats anyways) to get Arena Trap. Clearly Arena Trap was the broken part of Dugtrio since Dugtrio in of itself is just a mediocre pokemon. That's why Arena Trap was banned in gen 7 & even suspected in gen 6. Anything else with mediocre stats & higher with a decent enough movepool/typing would be too broken with Arena Trap because, that said mediocre pokemon is bound to be able to beat a relevant mon in the tier w/o any practical ways of going around it.

Swagger also received a buff in gen 6 and being able to swagger any mon with priority and relying on confusion to beat an opponents is noncompetitive. Swagger was unbanned in gen 7 when it received a massive nerf in confusion chance; it also helped that pranksters users couldn't affect dark types. Which means there was counterplay.


Turning into Zygarde-100% when below 50% HP is a really tough strategy to beat, as getting there can be easy & dealing with Zygarde-100% is a tough hurdle due to it's massive stats. True, the ability can only be applied to Zygarde-10% & 50% but, it's still noncompetitive due to the massive boost in power & bulk, and how easy it was to bringing out an ubers mon to the field. Any ability that allows you to summon an ubers mon with ease is obviously noncompetitive.

Exactly why Swagger and Arena Trap were banned.

I couldn't talk about gen 5 sand rush because I know nothing about it but, read up on it. Read up on past bans and the actual reasons why they got banned.

So for all of you wanting Gorilla Tactics banned instead of Darmantian-Galar, understand that smogon is not about that & neither is most of community. It doesn't matter if you can save a mon, what matters is consistency. And smogon + most of the community is trying to be consistent.

Ive been primarily lurking for a while now, but I think this is worth replying to.

I dont fully agree with that point, Darm could still be a viable mon with Zen Mode, and this type of treatment has precedent. Take Gen 5 Garchomp, Sand Veil was banned (and rightfully so) but the council deemed Rough Skin made it no longer broken. Sand Veil, the broken and uncompetitive ability was banned, because it danced with luck and not skill.

Garchomp is not a unique case either, take Shadow Tag. You didnt see council/the community ban Gothitelle outright, they banned the uncompetitive ability.

My point of this being, the Gorilla Tactics ban is not a meritless argument. Don't count it out.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Ive been primarily lurking for a while now, but I think this is worth replying to.

I dont fully agree with that point, Darm could still be a viable mon with Zen Mode, and this type of treatment has precedent. Take Gen 5 Garchomp, Sand Veil was banned (and rightfully so) but the council deemed Rough Skin made it no longer broken. Sand Veil, the broken and uncompetitive ability was banned, because it danced with luck and not skill.

Garchomp is not a unique case either, take Shadow Tag. You didnt see council/the community ban Gothitelle outright, they banned the uncompetitive ability.

My point of this being, the Gorilla Tactics ban is not a meritless argument. Don't count it out.

Zero people in this thread have put forth the argument that Gorilla Tactics is uncompetitive. Some believe it is broken, but let's not try and fudge the lines by bringing up Sand Veil and Shadow Tag. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Furthermore, if Gorilla Tactics is broken, why are Huge/Pure Power not broken despite being strictly better? And don't give me any of that "GT doesn't exist in a vacuum" BS. Of course it doesn't, but if factors outside of GT are "making GT broken", that means GT itself isn't the broken element.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Ive been primarily lurking for a while now, but I think this is worth replying to.

I dont fully agree with that point, Darm could still be a viable mon with Zen Mode, and this type of treatment has precedent. Take Gen 5 Garchomp, Sand Veil was banned (and rightfully so) but the council deemed Rough Skin made it no longer broken. Sand Veil, the broken and uncompetitive ability was banned, because it danced with luck and not skill.

Garchomp is not a unique case either, take Shadow Tag. You didnt see council/the community ban Gothitelle outright, they banned the uncompetitive ability.

My point of this being, the Gorilla Tactics ban is not a meritless argument. Don't count it out.

We have talked about this roughly 50 times in the last 2 pages.

Those ABILITIES were deemed noncompetitive...
Gorilla Tactics is not noncompetitive nor is it broken.

 

[Modern_Erasmus]

The idea that we should be examining abilities in a vacuum to determine their brokenness seems ridiculous to me. Gorilla tactics and huge power are not comparable because Huge Power is an ability specifically given to pokemon with otherwise low to average Attack stats, while Gorilla Tactics is on a mon with 140. The idea that GT can't be banned because it's worse than HP ignores the actual practical reality of the situation in favor of pedantry and hypotheticals.

 

[Divine Retribution]

while Gorilla Tactics is on a mon with 140.

The fact that you talk about not examining abilities in a vacuum in the very same sentence as an explicit admission that an external factor outside of Gorilla Tactics is what makes it broken is fucking astounding to me. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

For the 3rd time now, if another factor is "making Gorilla Tactics broken" or whatever, then Gorilla Tactics itself is NOT the broken element. If it's not the broken element, we have no justification to ban it, end of story. Call it pedantry or whatever the fuck you want, that's simply how the tiering process works, and if we want to preserve that cohesion, Darmanitan as a whole must go.

 

[Ruft]

The fact that you talk about not examining abilities in a vacuum in the very same sentence as an explicit admission that an external factor outside of Gorilla Tactics is what makes it broken is fucking astounding to me. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

For the 3rd time now, if another factor is "making Gorilla Tactics broken" or whatever, then Gorilla Tactics itself is NOT the broken element. If it's not the broken element, we have no justification to ban it, end of story. Call it pedantry or whatever the fuck you want, that's simply how the tiering process works, and if we want to preserve that cohesion, Darmanitan as a whole must go.

The entire point is that it seems ridiculous to blindly follow that philosophy instead of approaching it on a case-by-case basis. From a competitive standpoint there is nothing broken about Zen Mode Darmanitan and it seems ideal to preserve it. Don't give me the Blaze Blaziken argument since Gorilla Tactics would not be a complex ban.

Honestly, we shouldn't even be discussing this Darmanitan vs Gorilla Tactics argument anymore since this horse has been beaten to death and it's constantly derailing the thread from what it's supposed to discuss: if Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan is an issue and if so, how to approach it (quickban or suspect test).

 

[KztxL7]

We could determine whether or not an ability in the past was broken or not because it existed on multiple pokemon.

Because those abilities existed on multiple pokemon such as Protean, we could see that it was Greninja and not Protean because Kecleon was not absurd.

Gorilla Tactics exists on Darmanitan and on it alone. You can not say the ability is or is not broken because you have no second reference point such as with Protean, Speed Boost or Shadow Tag/Arena Trap.

It's really hard to argue without going into the realm of theorymonning that the ability's broken-ness when it only exists on a single Pokemon and it seems to be the absurdity that is truly pushing it over the edge that people are considering/agreeing to quickban the Pokemon.

 

[oreofestar]

Like someone said earlier you wouldn't ban Multiscale in UU cuz only Dragonite has it so you can use that ban to nerf Dragonite, or let's say in the future ban Libero to nerf Cinderace since it is technically a unique ability. If you're banning abilities you're admitting aren't broken to preserve other sets of that pokemon, you're effectively complex banning but only for pokemon that dont share their abilities with other pokemon in the tier and below. If you don't see why that is a dangerous precedent to set I dont know what to tell you.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Ive been primarily lurking for a while now, but I think this is worth replying to.

I dont fully agree with that point, Darm could still be a viable mon with Zen Mode, and this type of treatment has precedent. Take Gen 5 Garchomp, Sand Veil was banned (and rightfully so) but the council deemed Rough Skin made it no longer broken. Sand Veil, the broken and uncompetitive ability was banned, because it danced with luck and not skill.

Garchomp is not a unique case either, take Shadow Tag. You didnt see council/the community ban Gothitelle outright, they banned the uncompetitive ability.

My point of this being, the Gorilla Tactics ban is not a meritless argument. Don't count it out.

The thing is, Gorilla Tactics isn't a luck based ability or an overpowered ability. It's just a signature ability. Gorilla Tactics doesn't make Darm-G broken, it's the other way around. Gorilla Tactics is a decent ability by itself but, it's far from unbalanced. Take for instance Bisharp, it wouldn't want Gorilla Tactics over Defiant due to the fact that it wants to use sucker punch _ another move for mind games with faster threats and it wants defiant to punish defoggers. There's plenty of physical attacking mons that Gorilla Tactics would work well on or just be mediocre on. Darm-G on the other hand has a whopping 140 Attack stat with a great spammable movepool & 95 speed perfect for scarf.
I understand that some people want as many mons as possible after Dexit but, it would go against tiering policy.

 

[Rarycaris]

Of course it doesn't, but if factors outside of GT are "making GT broken", that means GT itself isn't the broken element.

In fairness, you could equally argue that factors outside of Darmanitan as a Pokemon are making it broken, so it's not broken either. Everyone is in agreement that it is only the combination of the two that is broken -- it's just that banning the combination is not, in this specific instance, actually a complex ban. (I contend that a ban is only complex if its simplest expression is complex, because otherwise any simple ban can be expanded to more complex bans than there are atoms in the universe.)

There is a recognition that inevitably, a non-inherently broken element is getting banned here, and I can certainly see the argument for choosing to preserve one that exists in normal gameplay over one that does not. This disagreement over policy is, in essence, a debate over whether a vacuous ban (Gorilla Tactics on Pokemon other than Darmanitan) is inherently harmless or not.

I think it does break with current policy that works fine, but it's not like it would unleash total anarchy if that policy were changed; the potential new line in the sand is well-defined. "Ban abilities if they are broken on every user in the game" is fairly simple to understand. That said, I personally prefer "ban the Pokemon unless the broken element operates independently of the Pokemon it's on" because it better focuses on the nature of the broken element and is more clearly consistent with past precedent.

It's also worth noting that Gorilla Tactics has been quickbanned in Hackmons. Hackmons isn't precedent in OU, clearly. But there's a potential argument to be made that it and Huge Power (and Wonder Guard) are in fact broken abilities, and Gorilla Tactics is the only one that has failed to positively affirm that bad distribution balances it.

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With respect to Darmanitan being a problem independently of this debate: I think the consensus that it is is pretty much unanimous, and it was identified as broken pretty much immediately. The conversation is about how to approach that ban because there isn't really much else to discuss, aside from whether to quickban or suspect.

I would personally suggest a G-Darm quickban -- the clear supermajority is in favour of a ban, so the outcome of the suspect is a foregone conclusion. We don't have the complicating factor of the ban being controversial like Dynamax was, and there is a clear benefit to this metagame stabilising more quickly. I think it's better to spend that time on suspect tests whose outcome is realistically in doubt.