On The Radar

[kumiko]

Hello everyone!

Right now, with the banning of Zygarde-Complete (Power Construct), the OU Council is now going to move on to looking at potentially banning or suspecting any other broken Pokemon or aspect available in Sun and Moon. For clarification, we are talking about the Pokebank metagame, not prebank. Pokebank will be the primary metagame in two months so we do not wish to waste time tiering a metagame that will be obsolete in two months nor do we want to waste time by not tiering for Pokebank until its release.

Some things currently on our radar are:

Aegislash

It seems not much has changed since Aegislash was banned in XY. Between its absurd stats, ability, and movepool, very few things can safely switch into it. Its versatility and movepool pose quite a strain on teambuilding and force teams to either use very specific answers or accept the fact Aegislash is going to be tough to handle. Although Aegislash is an incredible Pokemon, it could be argued it is not banworthy because it does have answers and is incredibly slow. It has also been presented with some potential nuisances in Sun and Moon between Mantine, the return of Hoopa-U, and Celesteela.

Genesect

Another former Uber, Genesect also poses similar issues to when it was originally banned in XY. Although, unlike Aegislash, it has been presented with checks between now and its banishment. Toxapex, Mantine, Volcanion, among other things were introduced in that timespan and give Genesect's formerly standard sets issues. Although it has more answers, it still has the ability to circumvent its counters due to its vast movepool, as well as the fact the ever spammable U-turn can be used to punish potential checks.

Greninja

Greninja, unlike the prior two, is a Pokemon banned in the ORAS meta rather than XY. Greninja was given a new incredible aspect to its movepool in ORAS that pushed it over the edge; Gunk Shot. This prevented former counters such as SDef Clefable from ever thinking about switching in. Greninjas movepool and speed are both incredible, alongside its ability, it could still be too much for OU, even with new checks in the form of Mantine and Toxapex.

Hoopa-U

Hoopa-U is another Pokemon banned in ORAS. It was released mid-ORAS and did not immediately pose itself as a gamebreaking threat. However as the metagame advanced, Hoopa-U advanced further. Its absurd power and incredibly STABs pushed it over the edge. Sun and Moon has presented us with multiple new viable Fairy types and an array of potential checks. Even with this, nothing can safely switch into Hoopa-U.

Landorus

Landorus-Incarnate returns to the metagame after being formerly banned in the later stages of both BW and XY. Boasting not only an insanely powerful Earth Power, but also coverage moves to hit just about anything it wants to, as well as Rock Polish to potentially sweep teams lategame, it is a force to be reckoned with at all stages of the game. It must be noted, however, that Landorus possesses only middling speed, as well as average defenses and a typing that leaves it open to a few common attacking types, meaning that it's definitely not close to impossible to stop.

Pheromosa

Pheromosa is the newest threat given to us from the Sun and Moon generation. Its incredible speed and power is comparable to that of Deoxys. Although its defenses are quite poor, it has some incredible advantages; Beast Boost and access to U-turn. Beast Boost can be customized to boost either Attack, Special Attack, or Speed upon killing a Pokemon depending upon how a user customizes their EV Spread. U-turn provides Pheromosa the ability to constantly pressure its common checks, between hazards and sending in a strong check of your own. Although Pheromosa is powerful, it has plenty of viable checks in OU at the moment, most notably Aegislash, who Pheromosa can not dent.


Please feel free to bring up anything else not covered above and give your thoughts on the Pokemon we covered. The Council will be actively watching this thread so please don't think your voice won't be heard should you post. Expect strict moderation; and please don't post one liners. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to message the Council via PM.

 

[Ash Borer]

What are the council's thoughts on Kartana?

my personal opinion is that there's nothing overwhelming about it. It has endless defensive counters that fit onto stall, balanced and offensive teams. These include but aren't limited to Buzzwole, Heracross, Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Aegislash, M-Metagross, Jirachi, Zard-Y, Zapdos, and probably some more. Plus, it isn't particularly hard to revenge kill it as pretty much any scarf user, or just fast attacker can do the trick if it can hit it super effective or specially.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Although not an opinion that I share with others, but some people have been saying that Tapu Koko could be problematic as well, especially after one of its bigger checks, Zygarde, was banned.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Hmm I'm wondering about the council's (or other peoples) thoughts on Celesteela, Tapu Koko and Arena Trap?

Celesteela has been fairly under the radar, I feel like its unpredictability can be a problem since it has access to a variety of offensive and defensive options along with very well-rounded stats. Though I don't really think it warrants a suspect for now but, I'm still not quite sure.

I have personally not used Tapu Koko yet but, I have seen some posts here and there calling for a quickban. I would assume that its great typing with decent bulk and a fantastic speed and offensive stats might warrant a suspect/ban. It's also quite hard to switch into this mon because it has ways to deal with its switch-ins (Dazzling Gleam for Dugtrio, Brave Bird for Venusaur and Bulu, etc.) ninja-ed .o.

As for Arena Trap, it can be argued that it has counters with Ghost and Flying types, Levitate, and pivoting moves (besides Volt Switch). Trapping has been kinda a problem nowadays, especially since Dugtrio can eliminate answers to the tier's powerful mons (for example, trapping Xurkitree for Celesteela or trapping Toxapex for Pheromosa). The Attack stat buff to Dugtrio also made its trapping ability more potent. This is a very controversial topic so I would like to read some thoughts.

 

[UltiMario]

What's the status of Shadow Tag? It's in the other direction, but it should definitely be "on the radar" to bring down.

As far as raw Pokemon is concerned, we're giving Aegislash a second chance, and as far as "uncompetitive" issues are concerned, the much more uncompetitive (albeit nerfed) Swagger has dropped for a retest. We even have a trapper allowed in the tier that's, for the most part, a better Pokemon than Gothitelle now in the form of buffed Dugtrio. So the question remains: Shouldn't we be testing Shadow Tag along with everything else?

 

[X5Dragon]

Out of all those mentioned I can see Aegishield/slash being suspected, not even quick banned. The whole meta is on speed, be it crazy stats, boosting moves, weather abilities or scarfs, so more than likely each of the mentioned offensive threats will go around and check each other. Highly recommend giving the meta 1-2 weeks to settle before opening another round of suspect discussion, Zygarde complete has forced people to run really gimmick sets lately or mons specifically there to kill him, nothing else.

Edit: Concerning Pheromosa, it's like Deoxys but with dual (and arguably better) STABs, free boosts after killing mons, great physical, special or mixed and more abusable HJK. I have no problem seeing this banned immediately.

 

[JackTheGamer]

I feel like genesect has had enough checks introduced that it isn't really that big of an issue. For example, thanks to Toxipex it isn't even safe to u-turn. I just switch in rocky helmet tox on your u-turn, and regenerator takes care of the damage.

Of course, it could always start carrying t-bolt....

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Adding on to the Pheromosa discussion. Yes, it does have a lot of checks in the tier (Buzzwole, A-Marowak, Mantine, Pelipper, Toxapex, etc.) but, the fact that it can freely U-Turn out due to its speed tier (it outspeeds quite a bit of the Scarfed meta with just a positive Speed nature) is the problem I have with her. The only reliable check at this point is Toxapex since it can punish a Pheromosa that tries to U-Turn with Baneful Bunker. I wouldn't mind a quick ban tbh...

 

[DaKakz]

Personally I don't want STag unbanned, even if it's not broken it will still be uncompetitive and annoying af and I feel like we'll just be wasting time with it.

 

[Avira]

I am also wondering whether Arena Trap is on the radar. As more and more threats are introduced, it becomes harder to handle everything, which makes trapping stronger with each passing generation. Yeah, Arena Trap is not as powerful as Shadow Tag in that Flying-type Pokemon and Pokemon with Levitate are unaffected by Arena Trap, but there's still the matter of switching being the single most crucial aspect of competitive Pokemon, and an ability that allows for the trapping of a significant number of Pokemon is not exactly conducive to good metagame health in my opinion. The presence of Dugtrio forces opponents to either run a sub-optimal move in Shed Shell, play sub-optimally in fear of losing one's check to a crucial threat, and in doing so, skews risk/reward in favour of the Dugtrio user, or just run Pokemon that have priority moves/are faster than Dugtrio/have no issue with Dugtrio regardless of whether they are actually useful in the metagame. The addition of autoterrain abilities also encourages people to use more grounded Pokemon, which is another favourable development for Dugtrio this generation in addition to the Base Attack boost.

 

[Revelation]

I think Pheromosa ought to be next in line for the quick-ban hammer, its mostly been covered why.

I'd prefer to see Aegislash suspected if anything because I feel it's not too bad overall and most of it's problems could be solved with banning King's Shield imo.

Talking about things On The Radar to come down, Mega Kangaskhan's changes should be enough for us to see what it's like in the metagame, tbh.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Darkrai could also probably be unbanned to see how it fares in the current meta. The nerf to Dark Void essentially makes the move unreliable so Darkrai is basically just another set-up special attacker for the tier without any status moves. Also the increase in Fairy types (Tapus) and fast attackers (buff to Mega Evolution and Pheromosa) provided more checks to Darkrai as well.

 

[HC]

What is your answer to Darkrai? It's got pretty good coverage, is incredibly fast and strong and doesn't have awful bulk, enabling it the freedom to set up. But with Tbolt, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast, it's hard to see anything outside of Chansey really walling this thing... priority is so uncommon right now which doesn't help in the current meta.

 

[Doc97]

Honestly i can t see any of this pokemon beeing overpower and deserving a quickban, but i can see any of these being suspected. Any of these have their weakness and they aren't unmanageable by any means. Maybe the only one wich is too centralyzing is Aegislash, but i don't think it's broken at all and is such a great glue...
Honestly I changed my mind about Pheromosa because i think it can be stopped very easily.
However before suspecting any of these I would like pokemon like Darkrai and Mega-Kanga being introduced because they received very significant nerfs and I think they should be OK in OU now and moreover they would be two additional checks for Aegislash lacking Sacred Sword.

 

[Niadev]

Ah, ty based OU council

Phero should definitely be the next to go. While it is being kept in check by Aegi pretty solidly, the fact you have to bring either it or Toxapex to not be super threatened by some set it may possess is pretty daft. A quarter of the reason I have aegi on all my teams is that it's the only counter it has that's not passive as fuck, the other 3 quarters being Aegi is amazing as fuck in general and checks half the meta rn. Not to mention Aegi itself is rearing to go itself. Furthermore, it just u-turns out into Lando-I (who is a fantastic partner for it because of it's ability to break Phero's counters and HP Elec Pheromosa luring Mantine, Pelliper and co for non-Rock Slide variants) on the switch, or any other breaker that can handle the two. Mantine's your check? Catch this HP Electric. Lando-T? Bopped with Ice Beam. Phero provides a ridiculous amount of pressure both to and for offense and constrains teambuilding to a large degree. If Aegi were gone I dare say Toxapex would be the only counter, and it's way too passive to be around for the long haul.

I'm a bit dubious on Lando-I being broken - Celesteela is a great pokemon and Sp.Def variants counter it more or less, avoiding the Focus Blast 2hko unlike Sp.Def Skarm, and Celesteela looks to be an S Rank (A+ at least) 'mon. It's also currently incapable of running every coverage move, but scouting it's set is a gigantic pain in the ass due to how easily one of it's sets could end your team. Keep it for suspect imo

On Mega Kang, have we had Seismic Toss Mega Kang tested on cart at all? If it does the 200HP thing it might still be a bit too much.

Dubious on Darkrai personally. While it's no longer the epitome of broken, it's still pretty great - Strong coverage, very high speed and special attack combined with one of the best offensive typings in the game, not to mention Breloom isn't that common at all and Phero is likely going soon, with Tapu Koko following soon.

No comment on Gren or Gene so far.

 

[Ash Borer]

What is your answer to Darkrai? It's got pretty good coverage, is incredibly fast and strong and doesn't have awful bulk, enabling it the freedom to set up. But with Tbolt, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast, it's hard to see anything outside of Chansey really walling this thing... priority is so uncommon right now which doesn't help in the current meta.

Chansey fails as an answer to Darkrai too. Knock Off and Taunt are death sentences to it.

 

[Doc97]

Why do you guys think Tapu Koko is broken? Honestly I never had any problem with it? OK it is very fast and hit hard with its elecric STAB only but any pokemon which resists electric it s a great check to it and it isn't sweeping whole teams anytime soon.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Aegislash I love as a Pokemon and I'll be sad to see it go, but I think it would be wise to suspect test this sooner rather than later due to community outcries about its bustedness. It does seem right now that Phermosa and Aegislash are centralising forces, though I think Phermosa needs to go first and should probably be quickbanned.

I do agree that Lando, Gene and Greninja are suspect worthy especially once the initial busted stuff is gone, however I think they've got a better chance of surviving than last gen. I'm not sure currently how I'd vote on these. Most teams I build seem to struggle with Lando-I and Gren still to the point I feel forced to run Mantine and even that they can work around with the correct moves. Gene seems more manageable but I think that's because people just spam u-turn on the ladder currently.

In terms of new metagame shake ups, I think people are complaining about Tapu Koko because it excels in such an offensive metagame. I could see it struggling a lot more if teams were bulkier. On top of that, electric moves are the only things that majorly hurt coming from it. Whilst it can lure with brave bird, there's opportunity cost in running such a set. I'd say definitely keep an eye on it because it can run a ton of sets from specs to mixed to stallbreaker, but I personally feel there's enough answers to this mon.

Celesteela is very diverse but seems completely manageable at the moment. It comes across as a strong and unpredictable OU worthy mon, but nothing more than that. I'm amazed people are complaining about Toxapex; it's just a good new fat mon that is hard to kill. It has haze to prevent setup yeah, but most neutral hits from specs/banded mons seem to blow it back, so I wouldn't say you're forced to run specific coverage or anything.

I personally think we should wait before considering any drops. There's a lot of stuff that needs assessing first. Thank you for banning Zygarde-C by the way. That mon was absolutely disgusting.

 

[Snowcune]

I personally don't think Celesteela needs to be banned, the main isssue is that it pairs really well with mons like aegislash and marowak and that is what makes it really difficult to take down. I think if aegislash goes its not gonna be as good but still pretty viable

 

[Endal]

A very popular pokemon since its release, let's talk about Tapu Koko. In my opinion, this electric/fairy pokemon is just a little too versatile for the OU metagame. While it probably won't be getting banned anytime soon with all the other threats out there, as the meta progresses I can see it getting banned at a later date. Here are some reasons why.
1) It's absurdly fast, one of the fastest non-mega OU mons currently
2) Ground types can't even switch in to this safely if it has hp ice or grass knot. While this is a given as most electric types run ice or grass coverage, Tapu Koko has access to recovery so it can't be worn down as easily as say mega manectric, raikou etc.
3) A lot of people are running the special set but in the future people are going to start running physical tapu koko more and eventually this pokemon will just be too unpredictable with the numerous sets it can run successfully. (some pokemon banned for being too unpredictable include aegislash, genesect, greninja, landorus)
4) Its great offensive typing, its amazing ability, diverse movepool (despite what ppl may say about its movepool being shallow), and the fact that i don't think there's a sure check to this thing yet make this pokemon just a little too good in OU.

 

[NVT_Sart]

Before I start about the things that are currently on the radar, one thing about the now banned Zygarde-C: You might want to include calcs about moves that are actually threatening to Zygarde to better show it's bulk :P Something along the lines of LO Lando-I HP Ice, or LO Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam. Would be better than things like Earth Power who don't really seem threatening for a ground type too much.

Anyhow, on to the "suspects":

a) I agree on anything that has been said, and I agree that Aegi should be Ubers. One thing I want you to consider though: IF/WHEN you ban Aegislash, make sure to ALSO ban the things that it's used to check with it; most notably Pheromosa. While yes, there are other Pheromosa checks, they don't fit in as many different archetypes/teams as Aegislash does, and you don't want a meta where Pheromosa runs free without Aegi to check it.

b) Amongst all the Pokemon mentioned, Genesect is surprisingly the least urgent imo. Yes, the U-Turn spam is annoying, yes, it has an incredible movepool. I just feel that IN COMPARISON it's overshadowed by other, more important issues that need to be fixed first. Might want to suspect this instead of quick banning.

c) Greninja is a hard case... It can be devastating vs some teams, but also a sitting duck vs others. Stall often runs Chansey for example, vs which Greninja doesn't do Jackshit at all. If at all, this pokemon should be suspected instead of quick banned, and mainly due to it's versatility and variety of coverage options/sets. Another question here is if Protean and Battle Bond Greninja should be handled as one Pokemon.

d) This needs to go right with the first wave tbh. Just the sheer amount of damage it puts out makes this almost impossible to handle, unless you predict it coming in every single time. If you don't, or mispredict, you almost always have to sack something, or have it take such a big chunk of its HP that it's basically sacked.

e) Another "Genesect" type right now imo. Its power is undeniable, but it does feel surprisingly balanced in the current meta. Mostly threatening slower teams, there are still options, so this should not be a priority issue atm.

f) Pheromosa also needs to go. Yes, there are checks, but as I mentioned in the part about Aegislash, most of them only fit into certain archetypes, and if this is able to pick off an already weakened Pokemon, it becomes near unstoppable. Simply unhealthy and, caution, buzzword, overcentralizing; since everyone has to consider its threat while teambuilding and, should Aegislash go, people might have to pick Pokemon that wouldn't usually fit their team, just to be able to deal with this. Also together with Lele Pheromosa loses on of it's only weaknesses in priority.

Hope I could help!

Edit: Forgot about Koko: It can be considered suspected. Shouldn't necessarily be quickbanned as others of the above mentioned have a lot higher priority, and koko is at it's best in one archetype "only"

Edit2: Consider Manaphy? Maybe a complex ban to one or both of his Z-Moves instead of Manaphy itself?

 

[Finchinator]

Just to get the ball rolling from my perspective...

Aegislash
I believe this is probably the most banworthy of all of the Pokemon here. With the presence of King's Shield, a strong Ghost STAB, the shield and blade forms and their convenience, and the overall impact of the defensive typing w/ the bulk of the shield form, Aegislash is not only broken, but it's unhealthy and incredibly restrictive on the growth and development of the new metagame. I think focusing on the fact that it's broken/unhealthy is more important to analyzing how it might slow-down the metagame because those are conventional means of determining that something is banworthy and we never really tier for the sake of restricting things/unrestricting them (or if we do, it ties more directly into a root cause of being unhealthy -- basically, let's look at this like any other Pokemon we would suspect). The counters are really few and far between - Mandibuzz is non-existent, AV Tang works, most dark types don't appreciate flash cannon/sacred sword (but they're usually quicker and can come in on Shadow ball once or twice, so they can be counterplay), and there's not much else that you really have seen much in the early stages (sure, there's more that will become common and the metagame is yet to unravel, but those things aren't exactly the best at countering Aegi either if history proves itself correct). Additionally, the nature of Aegislash in general simply isn't very healthy thanks to King's Shield in conjunction with the form changing ability -- any Pokemon with such a unique typing and solid STAB can abuse this to the extent that it'd be controversial and Aegislash does it incredibly well. All in all considered, Aegislash is the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, threats in the tier and it's certainly banworthy.

Genesect
Genesect is, once again, a top tier threat and it's banworthy, imo. I mean it's been the powerhouse, conventionally broken Pokemon of the past two generations, more or less, and I don't see much changing this now. It has an insane movepool with download and great offensive stats (only held back a bit by base 99 speed thanks to Espeed and solid defensive typing). I thought it might struggle to gain traction initially because everything else around it was quicker, but strong Espeed, being a fairy resist w/ 'decent' (not glass cannon level, at least) natural bulk, and having pretty much everything at its disposal ranging from U-turn to mixed breaking coverage, it is just as potent as ever, pretty much. I'm not sure if it's one of the top 2-3 Pokemon in the tier or simply among the top tier of like a dozen Pokemon because it's truly hard to gauge specifics at this point, but, outside of Heatran, Mantine, Pelipper, and Toxapex (it doesn't run TBolt 90% of the time @ last 3), there aren't many counters to it at all, but there are a few situational checks such as Aegislash and various physical walls can potentially check the banded variant, I suppose. With that said, it is versatile and can really screw a team over in the long haul or devastate a team in the short-term depending on the match-up and Genesect variant. On the fronts of versatility, strength (esp thanks to download), and unpredictability (sorta, idk if this is the best word) I think Genesect is too much for the tier, but I'm unsure of if it's broken enough to get banned this early alongside the others or not, so I guess that's what needs to be gagued. Overall, my point is that Genesect is very good rn and probably should go, sooner or later.

Landorus
Landorus is still (probably) too good for OU. I mean I guess this was fairly predictable seeing how strong it is w/ Sheer Force and how it has done in the OU metagame for the past two generations, but there are very few, if any, actual counters to it being used right now while it is overwhelming everything it hits offensively, more or less. There's a very slight degree of 4MSS on the SR (or RP) variants, but that's far from the end of the world considering it still hits a vast majority of things in the tier. I don't know if this is good enough necessarily to go immediately from the tier, but I can't see it staying for incredibly long, to be quite honest, unless some form of legitimate, consistent counterplay pops up beyond just one check/counter you find occasionally here and there (see: random Zapdos/Mandibuzz/SDef Rotom-W). Overall, Landorus is pretty much the epitome of 'broken' by the definition of the word -- there's limited counterplay, it hits very hard to the extent that it overpowers a fair amount traditional pivots/walls (but there aren't many "walls" being used currently, bar the few stall teams here and there, which are noteworthy to an extent), and it makes you either face being vulnerable to it or running one of a few, potentially blatantly inconvenient Pokemon in order to keep it in check.

Pheromosa
Pheromosa is incredibly overpowering to the extent that you either have 1 of the 2 checks or you probably are losing a Pokemon to it. It is essentially an offensive Deoxys form in terms of Speed and Attacking stats and then it also gets STAB u-turn and enough coverage to get by against everything bar Aegislash, which will find its way out, and Toxapex. Obviously, having such limited counterplay inherently restricts teambuilding and is unhealthy for the tier. On a more direct note, this makes Pheremosa quite broken. I mean, really, it has 137/137/151 offensive stats w/ HJK, U-turn, Focus Blast, and Bug Buzz as legitimately good STABs on both sides of the spectrum and then it gets Ice Beam to hit Lando-T/Gliscor and PJab to hit fairy types (it 2HKOs or OHKOs all of them because Pheromosa is so ridiculously strong). The only thing stopping it from essentially running the tier right now is the fact that Aegislash is one of the few things more common than it and Aegislash walls it to hell and back thanks to its typing and bulk. In addition, Beast Boost makes it essentially incapable of being revenge killed by non-priority when facing offense as, once it gets a kill, nothing outpaces base 151 speed at +1 in terms of choice scarf users or normal revenge killers. Overall, this thing is blatantly broken.

Still haven't formed a full opinion on Greninja or Hoopa, but I don't think either are as bad as any of the four aforementioned.

 

[Doc97]

Finchinator what do you think about Darkrai e Mega-Kanga?

 

[aybekay]

My thougts on Pheromosa are that that Pokemon is too strong for OU besides its versatlity it also creates a lot of 5050s in a game whether or not it U-Turns out or it Ice Beams for example your flying type. Pheromosa also doesnt have any good counters because it just U-Turns out when a check comes in.

Gensect, Greninja, Landorus-I are in my opinion more managable than all the other ones on the radar. Since those mons have all straigt good counters who can handle them reliably.

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator what do you think about Darkrai e Mega-Kanga?

The OU council will not be entertaining the prospect of dropping any pokemon from Ubers for the time being as the metagame is currently very unstable and we need to work on dealing with what is in the tier and what, potentially, needs to leave the tier. Once we reach some degree of balance and stability, we will consider retesting Pokémon such as Mega Kanga and Darkrai if we deem their being retested as worthwhile.