Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

[aesf]

And then there's the matter that it doesn't counter perish song Azumarill anyways:

2 scenarios Azumarill vs Mawile

1) Mawile doesn't have SD. Azumarill uses Perish Song first turn, while Mega Mawile uses play rough first turn, and Azumarill uses dive the next turn to prevent further damage.
Basically in this situation, Mega Mawile has 2 chances to attack it with Play Rough
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Is a 50% to 2HKO after sitrus
Using Play Rough doesn't even secure the kill, meaning that if you don't have SD mawile, it's still a 50/50 (let's not factor crits and misses for the sake of convenience)

2) Mawile has SD. Mega mawile uses SD first turn, Azumarill uses perish song, and then Azumarill attempts to triple protect.
Even with Swords Dance, Azumarill still has a 25% chance of winning.

Anyways, my issue with perish song is that it's one of those "gimmicks" that has a 25% chance of winning against anyone (nothing really OHKOs Azumarill and Meloetta anyways), but is STILL just as viable, if not more viable, than most of the things in the metagame.

I'd like to bring up another perish song user, somewhat easier to deal with, but still a huge threat:

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- FeatherDance
- Roost
- Taunt / Substitute

Do you rely on Taunt Gyara to beat perish song? Yeah, have fun. This thing can taunt opposing taunters first turn, mainly mega gyarados, and proceed to spam featherdance until the time is right for perish song. Murkrow is surprisingly bulky, being able to do impressive stuff like take on Zard X 1v1. Just haven't seen any discussion about this at all.

EVs are pretty simple; 48 SpD allows Murkrow to use perish song and spam roost against Scarfed Ice Beam Kyurem-B. The rest is dumped into Defense for bulk.

Terrible speed tier makes it not the most optimal choice for perish song, however.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

If they outspeed mawile then maw wins due to perish song, as the faster mon dies first. Maw's a hard counter to all perish song users I've seen.
That said, just because it's a hard counter doesn't stop perish song from being broken.

That's great and all until Meloetta uses Trick Room and beats Mawile on the last turn

 

[Knuckstrike]

I'd like to input my thoughts on perish song in 1v1. Personally, I do not think it's nearly as broken or unfair as people make it out to be.

First of all, I'd like to discount the argument of 'Perish song has a way of killing a lot of creativity in 1v1 with its ability to pretty much flatten most stallers and tanks in 1v1 single-handedly.' If you are running a stall mon then you should be running minimal speed anyway. Fast stall mons like deoxys-d are (hopefully) running taunt. If your mon is in the middle ground (like aegislash) then don't pick it if you think your opponent will bring out azumarill. The availability of perish song does force many 50/50's by the opponent having to guess if the mon is actually running perish song, but since 1v1 is largely reliant on playing one or two rounds of rock-paper-scissors anyway I really don't see the problem.

Of course, there will always be the sets that perish song beats. However, this is not at all a bad thing. Most 1v1 games are decided by whatever pokemon the trainers pick turn 1. Perish song beats pokemon that rely on coverage like golem beats hyper offensive mons lacking teravolt. If you lose because your opponent perish songed your gyarados then that doesn't mean it should be banned. It means your opponent predicted you to send in gyarados which is a mon that azumarill beats if gyara lacks taunt. In other words, you deserved to lose this one. How would it have been different if your opponent brought in a banded fusion bolt kyurem exactly?

If you need to keep out your gyarados (lacking taunt for some reason) in fear of perish song azumarill beating you that is not killing creativity or making non-taunt gyarados unviable. It simply means perish song azumarill is a way of beating that gyarados. If a meloetta beats it too and your team has trouble with it then put taunt on the gyarados which kills the perish song. Or, if you have a good 1v1 team, one of your other two mons should be able to beat the mon. If you do not have a mon on your team that either runs taunt or can 2HKO an azumarill then maybe your team is weak and it's not the fault of the perish song.

In conclusion, you needn't a dedicated counter on your team to beat perish song. There's enough viable mons that beat it and if you have nothing on your team beating it directly, it's enough to put taunt on one of your faster mons.

Also, those replays in the 1200s of azumarill beating sd gliscor/donphan teams mean absolutely nothing, js.

 

[DEG]

I'd like to reply on Knuckstrike replies.

The fact of running 1 pokemon or move to beat ONLY beat perish song and on rare occasions other pokemon shows that a move/pokemon is over-centralizing. The issue about Perish Song is the fact that it limits team choice, in other words remove the odds of building a ''free'' team like the case of Greninja in OU. Most teams had to prepare for it. Running taunt doesn't help most of the times factoring mirror coat effect creating 50/50, and taunt isn't that good in 1v1 outside of beating perish song and stall which can be beat by Set Up Pokemon.

On the other hand, you mentioned that as soon as both Pokemon are picked the game is decided, that's not true, in fact the moveset is what really matters occasionally. Perish Song Meloetta has different counters than Specs Meloetta, and both are used in abundance which keeps the odds of 50/50 appearing. Per example, Specs Meloetta beats kyurem-black, but the beast itself beats Perish song Meloetta (removing minor hax effect). Also Let's not forget the odds of Triple Protect.

I agree, Azumarill isn't a ''huge'' threat in perish song but that doesn't remove the possibility of it running a surprise factor in a band set, where you think it is persh song. Per instance, a specs Meloetta will use trick against azumarill predicting it is Perish song but in the truth it's not.

Finally I'll quote myself about why it is broken:

As in my previous post, it is broken following two criteria:

1- The move itself restricting team choices as if a user that doesn't run Taunt or HO team, might fail in the hand of Perish Song due to a poor choice of Pokemon.

2- The factor of the same Pokemon running different sets, such as Meloetta which has a choice between Specs or Perish Song, both sets are countered differently, or the possibility of running into a band azumarill cause everyone will think it's a perish song one. Even Mega Altaria can excel in Perish song even though it can run three other viable sets.

For more detailed information read my previous post.

 

[Knuckstrike]

I'd like to reply on Knuckstrike replies.

The fact of running 1 pokemon or move to beat ONLY beat perish song and on rare occasions other pokemon shows that a move/pokemon is over-centralizing. The issue about Perish Song is the fact that it limits team choice, in other words remove the odds of building a ''free'' team like the case of Greninja in OU. Most teams had to prepare for it. Running taunt doesn't help most of the times factoring mirror coat effect creating 50/50, and taunt isn't that good in 1v1 outside of beating perish song and stall which can be beat by Set Up Pokemon.

On the other hand, you mentioned that as soon as both Pokemon are picked the game is decided, that's not true, in fact the moveset is what really matters occasionally. Perish Song Meloetta has different counters than Specs Meloetta, and both are used in abundance which keeps the odds of 50/50 appearing. Per example, Specs Meloetta beats kyurem-black, but the beast itself beats Perish song Meloetta (removing minor hax effect). Also Let's not forget the odds of Triple Protect.

Except you don't need to run an unviable move to beat perish song teams. Taunt is a very useful move that not only beats perish song but also prevents setup from mons, beats annoying mons like murkrow, whimsicott, shuckle, many mew sets, smeargle not to mention all kinds of stall mons like dusclops and often p2. You make it seem like you need to run HO if you don't run taunt but just one offensive mon that can 2hko meloetta is enough. You don't need a team, just one mon that can 2HKO meloetta and take a hit.

Also, for your second argument of pokemon being able to run different sets; yes, this creates 50/50's about what set the possible perish songer is using save for a limited amount of pokemon that can beat both sets. However, creating 50/50's is not something that can be prevented or should be prevented in 1v1's. Battles are often decided by what set the two mons are running which creates 50/50's: so what? Is this a bad thing? Should we aim for a metagame where each pokemon can only run one type of set that can beat one type of pokemon?

Also, you might want to check up on your definition of check and counter :]

 

[Alpha Ninja]

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Roost/Substitute

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 224 HP / 160 Def / 20 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Blast Burn
- Rock Tomb
- SolarBeam

Ban the mega char twins? They limit team building, they are way too much used just check the usage stats. So Overused+Limiting Teambuild wow, just wow. (Don't know if this is the right thread)

let's get this discussion started!


S-rank ~~> Ban

 

[The Immortal]

Yeah, no. The usage is because X and Y are combined. Charizard Mega X has an actual usage of 11.88%, and Charizard Mega Y has an actual usage of 9.68%. Neither of them are broken.

 

[Rumplestiltskin]

I'd like to input my thoughts on perish song in 1v1. Personally, I do not think it's nearly as broken or unfair as people make it out to be.

First of all, I'd like to discount the argument of 'Perish song has a way of killing a lot of creativity in 1v1 with its ability to pretty much flatten most stallers and tanks in 1v1 single-handedly.' If you are running a stall mon then you should be running minimal speed anyway.

Running minimum speed nowadays would be solely to deal with perish song, and that doesn't matter anyway vs Meloetta (which uses trick room), which is where the "flatten most stallers and tanks in 1v1 single-handedly" statement comes from.

Fast stall mons like deoxys-d are (hopefully) running taunt.

If you need to keep out your gyarados (lacking taunt for some reason) in fear of perish song azumarill beating you that is not killing creativity or making non-taunt gyarados unviable. It simply means perish song azumarill is a way of beating that gyarados. If a meloetta beats it too and your team has trouble with it then put taunt on the gyarados which kills the perish song.

I'm not sure if you read the posts discussing Perish song back in February, but taunt doesn't necessarily mean a win vs perish song, and this post explains why.

If your mon is in the middle ground (like aegislash) then don't pick it if you think your opponent will bring out azumarill. The availability of perish song does force many 50/50's by the opponent having to guess if the mon is actually running perish song, but since 1v1 is largely reliant on playing one or two rounds of rock-paper-scissors anyway I really don't see the problem.

Of course, there will always be the sets that perish song beats. However, this is not at all a bad thing. Most 1v1 games are decided by whatever pokemon the trainers pick turn 1.

1v1 wasn't always reliant on rock-paper-scissors and rock-paper-scissors is a problem and a bad thing in my opinion, but let's leave that discussion for another day because it requires a discussion on it's own. Perish song amplifies the rock-paper-scissors aspect of 1v1 extremely, due to the fact that things that beat perish song most of the time don't beat non-perish song sets. This guarantees a rock-paper-scissors situation.

If you lose because your opponent perish songed your gyarados then that doesn't mean it should be banned. It means your opponent predicted you to send in gyarados which is a mon that azumarill beats if gyara lacks taunt. In other words, you deserved to lose this one. How would it have been different if your opponent brought in a banded fusion bolt kyurem exactly?

Would you deserve to lose a game against Rayquaza in 1v1 because you didn't use scarf Ice Beam Greninja? This has been stated in this discussion at least once but, just because something has a counter doesn't mean it's healthy to keep in a meta. The entire premise that a pokemon uses perish song in 1v1, and both pokemon faint, and the slower user wins is absurd and unacceptable in my opinion.

In conclusion, you needn't a dedicated counter on your team to beat perish song. There's enough viable mons that beat it and if you have nothing on your team beating it directly, it's enough to put taunt on one of your faster mons.

Not everyone uses teams or has a playstyle that without a dedicated counter naturally beats Perish song in 1v1, and this post explains it further, please read it as it directly addresses your claim.

 

[Reisen]

The mega Charizards aren't broken at all in the 1v1 tier, Charizard X is actually better because of its double type and a better physical bulk but they can both be countered anyway.

Charizard Y has more weaknesses, it is only powerful because of drought and op STAB moves such as Fire Blast / Blast Burn and access to Solarbeam. It actually can't stay alive even with Wow against a potential physical killer such as Golem / Rhyperior / Crustle.

And the best Charizard X build works with Counter in my opinion.

 

[Gradient Facade]

Jussain', but mawile can't do shit to azumarill or meloetta if they have substitute and outspeed mawile, so the mawile argument is sadly flawed.

Just as everyone else says, perish song is just ludicrous to deal with in 1v1. I'm all for using your options to their maximum potential, but not in the case of perish song. Perish song has a way of killing a lot of creativity in 1v1 with its ability to pretty much flatten most stallers and tanks in 1v1 single-handedly.

Another [but lesser] problem with perish song is that it truly makes some coin toss situations, not only with protect RNG, but when looking at Azu and Meloetta, both are very much able to run different offensively based sets that are just as good as perish song.

It's one thing to have a pokemon use a gimmicky strategy to muscle past it's conventional counters, but sets like specs on meloetta are so versatile that it's basically impossible to tell which set the perish songers are going to be because of their sheer versatility, and with each set having a different set of counters, this can be a huge coin toss in itself.

IMO, it's about time that perish song sang its last swan song.

EDIT: Forgot about outslowing to win against perish song. Just goes to show that it's been so long since I found 1v1 appealing to play due to perish song that I forgot one of the mechanics. derp.

 

[Missingn000]

Hey all, I'm a new 1v1 player, I was shown this thread by someone on the ladder and honestly I can't help but agree with the points being made. As a new player it's been pretty frustrating and downright boring to battle players who use only/primarily this strategy, it makes the game a whole lot less fun and fair. It might discourage a lot of people from starting to play 1v1 if they're just beginning and run into it a ton (almost did to me) and it seems like the general consensus is that it can only be broken with extreme OP attack which isn't for everyone. I'd definitely be up for considering banning this move from 1v1.

 

[The Immortal]

Let's say Perish Song is banned, then what? Teams would be the best/strongest three Pokemon and their best/strongest moves. Perish Song adds an extra element to teambuilding, instead of making it "boring".

Discuss.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'd argue that Rumplestiltskin has proven that idea wrong, as he runs very stall-oriented Pokemon that are easily able to defeat offensive threats. The meta never was just about heavy offense, as you need to bring things that can actually beat other things. For example, Chansey is a common Pokemon in the tier, and it runs a defensive set. Offensive powerhouses don't necessarily win all the time, and I think if anything they beat Perish Song users better. The fact is that Perish Song makes so many Pokemon unviable, especially stall Pokemon, so by banning it, diversity would be increased in the tier.

Perish Song used to be banned before the mechanics were changed to remove ties, and the meta had more diversity there than it does now.

I've been testing Perish Song a lot, and especially in tournaments, Meloetta beats so many teams. I got into the high 1400s or low 1500s with a team that consisted of Furfrou, Mawile, and Meloetta, and I used Meloetta almost every time. My whole team instantly lost to anyone with Greninja and I still got that high on the ladder. I put maybe 2 minutes of thought into the team. I think that that's a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

I think that a suspect test would work well for this tier.

 

[DEG]

Let's say Perish Song is banned, then what? Teams would be the best/strongest three Pokemon and their best/strongest moves. Perish Song adds an extra element to teambuilding, instead of making it "boring".

Discuss.

I'd have to disagree with that, if we're talking about best/strongest three Pokemon it's in fact in the Perish Song era. Teams are restricted running Offense for them to beat Perish Song. Also we can take a look at Karl's success on the 1v1 ladder with stall. Also not all strong/best Pokemon shine on the ladder, it depends on the pick, a low-tiered Pokemon can still beat a higher-tiered Pokemon. Some Pokemon which are ranked low-tier have the merit of beating high ranked Pokemon due to there sets.

So, I think Perish Song pushes teams to run hyper offense to be able to beat them since ''Taunt'' isn't a reliable move and Perish Song makes the ladder boring.


I'd agree that a suspect test for 1v1 would be fast and fun. Adding to that the possibility of getting more people to share their opinion since a lot don't know bout this discussion or don't use smogon frequently.

 

[The Immortal]

Alright, I have been convinced that Perish Song should be suspected. I'll do it right after the BH test is over.

 

[dusk raimon]

Ok hi i have multiple alts all with raimon in usually. So i wanna say Alpha Ninja remember who gave u the team ur using in those replays above? Take a guess, me lel. Also for the perish song suspect which is happening soon, what will the reqs be for a test since they are gonna have to be quite high to stop everyone from voting. Now onto my views on perish song. Baisacally when i teambuild i think so threats i got to counter, mawile, charizard oh ye perish song in general. It makes even marowak good godamnit. It limits teambuilding a lot and makes it so you have to always keep it in mind, or lose a lot of Elo.

 

[JacenBoy]

Now that Perish Song is about to be suspected, I feel obligated to chime in.

I've seen several posts about Perish Song limiting teambuilding. How much extra teambuilding do you need in 1v1? You only need a main attacker, and then two reserves for special situations where the main attacker doesn't cut it.

I can also think of several ways to counter a Perish Song user. First is Taunt. If you get a Taunt off, there's no way for the opponent to use Perish Song, and the battle evens out. Second would be Soundproof, preventing Perish Song from working. Another solution would be a Pokemon capable of hitting the Perish Song user hard and fast. You could also run the opposite, a slow, bulky Pokemon to survive 3 turns and let the Perish Song user get knocked out first.

The last argument I've seen is that Perish Song is uncompetitive. ...That's fair, but I think stall strategies are uncompetetive, and you don't here me crying for a ban of Alomomola. Perish Song, like stall, is a legit strategy that can be used creatively to make it more or less effective.

That probably (spelled "definitely") wasn't the best argument against the ban, but that's my opinion on the matter. If it is banned, I didn't really rely on it that much anyway.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

I've seen several posts about Perish Song limiting teambuilding. How much extra teambuilding do you need in 1v1? You only need a main attacker, and then two reserves for special situations where the main attacker doesn't cut it.

That's assuming you're playing with a certain playstyle. I definitely don't use that as my team idea, and I know that many high level 1v1 players also do not.

I can also think of several ways to counter a Perish Song user. First is Taunt. If you get a Taunt off, there's no way for the opponent to use Perish Song, and the battle evens out.

I agree that Taunt is an acceptable way of stopping Perish Song. However, if you're up against fast Perish Song Meloetta with Trick Room, you have to run something that outspeeds Meloetta or you still lose. This limits teambuilding hugely as you have to run a Pokemon that has Taunt and is fast enough to outspeed Meloetta. Whimsicott is probably the best Taunt user for this reason, but again, having to run a Whimsicott (or a fast Taunt user) just to beat Perish Song seems somewhat broken.

Second would be Soundproof, preventing Perish Song from working.

Here is a list of all Pokemon with Soundproof: Abomasnow, Bastiodon, Bouffalant, Electrode, Exploud, Loudred, Mime Jr., Mr. Mime, Shieldon, Snover, Voltorb, Whismur
I can't see any of these Pokemon being viable in 1v1. I did at one point run Soundproof Abomasnow to deal with Perish Song, and it was so terrible against everything else in the tier. Complete waste of a moveslot.

Another solution would be a Pokemon capable of hitting the Perish Song user hard and fast.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meloetta: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Melo often runs Sitrus Berry, so this would not beat it.
The reason I chose Kyurem-Black here is because it's a very common offensive Pokemon with a large attack stat. It's the epitome of strong and fast in 1v1.

You could also run the opposite, a slow, bulky Pokemon to survive 3 turns and let the Perish Song user get knocked out first.

And then Meloetta uses Trick Room and you lose. Or Lapras uses Curse and you lose.

The last argument I've seen is that Perish Song is uncompetitive. ...That's fair, but I think stall strategies are uncompetetive, and you don't here me crying for a ban of Alomomola. Perish Song, like stall, is a legit strategy that can be used creatively to make it more or less effective.

I'm going to reference Rumplestiltskin here again, because he runs stall in 1v1, and it's obviously very effective. What Rumple does is that he designs sets (that are actually creative and he puts a lot of thought into them) that tend to beat common Pokemon in the current metagame. He's a very good teambuilder for this tier, and because of this, he does well. With Perish Song, you don't have to be particularly good at teambuilding to do well. I mentioned the Furfrou / Mawile / Meloetta team earlier in this thread. I put all of 2 minutes of thought into it, and got to almost 1500. I'm not particularly good at making predictions. Anyways, I think my point is that stall takes thought to use, not just blindly choosing 3 pokes and calling it a day.
Also, Perish Song beats so many playstyles and eliminates so much creativity in the metagame, whereas stall does not. Stall is not as centralizing as a force in 1v1 because most users don't think it's particularly good. However, Perish Song is very centralizing, as there aren't many Pokemon that reliably deal with it.

Finally, this post is completely ignoring the mind games of "which Meloetta is it?" because Specs Melo beats most if not all of Perish Song Melo's counters. I just didn't feel that was as relevant to the banning of Perish Song.

 

[xfix]

Now that Perish Song is about to be suspected, I feel obligated to chime in.

I've seen several posts about Perish Song limiting teambuilding. How much extra teambuilding do you need in 1v1? You only need a main attacker, and then two reserves for special situations where the main attacker doesn't cut it.

That's an hyper offensive team. There are other ways of playing (stall hint hint). Perish Song absolutely destroys otherwise good stall mons and balance mons, moving the game towards powerful mons like Kyurem-Black, Mega Mawile, Mega Salamence, and Charizard Mega formes. You need to run offense to stand a chance against Perish Song, which is restricting. Not everybody enjoys playing offense, let's put some variety into the game.

I can also think of several ways to counter a Perish Song user. First is Taunt. If you get a Taunt off, there's no way for the opponent to use Perish Song, and the battle evens out. Second would be Soundproof, preventing Perish Song from working. Another solution would be a Pokemon capable of hitting the Perish Song user hard and fast. You could also run the opposite, a slow, bulky Pokemon to survive 3 turns and let the Perish Song user get knocked out first.

Right, because Perish Song Meloetta user cannot use Magic Coat to bounce Taunt onto you. None of Soundproof users are viable in 1v1. Slow stall mons lose to Meloetta with Trick Room (which is a standard set, really). You also need to be really slow to outslow Azumarill (although it's possible). And that's implying you know it's Perish Song, most notable Perish Song users also have other sets. And even if you manage to use Taunt, let's say against Azumarill, can you KO Azumarill before Taunt PP runs out?

The last argument I've seen is that Perish Song is uncompetitive. ...That's fair, but I think stall strategies are uncompetetive, and you don't here me crying for a ban of Alomomola. Perish Song, like stall, is a legit strategy that can be used creatively to make it more or less effective.

Stall is annoying, but can be dealt with by all playstyles. Alomomola isn't that great in 1v1 anyway, as it's defeated by common Pokemon (for example, Fusion Bolt from Scarf Kyurem-B is 2HKO, while Alomomola cannot really do anything to it).

Anyway, I figured I should write something about my own feelings about Perish Song. Yes, I did peak #1 using Perish Song team. I quite often picked Meloetta, and I will say, wow, that thing pretty much nukes everything that cannot 2HKO it (including Sitrus Berry recovery). Azumarill is capable of such feats as well, with its neat defensive typing. Unless you use something hyper offensive, it's practically uncounterable. And even if you do, you may meet surprise Specs Meloetta OHKOing your cute Kyurem-B. Perish Song is stupidly broken, and the hyper offensive threats can be dealt with two other slots.

 

[Uselesscrab]

As long as we're talking about Perish Song, I might as well post the set I used to combat it early in ORAS, one that has a great deal of utility otherwise. I don't always share my sets, but I've already given this to a couple people.

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Iron Defense
- Trick Room

How does it work? The principle of this set is to act like Aegislash: take a hit in your more defensive regular form, then Trick Room and attack the foe as more offensive Mega Diancie. The mega form's Magic Bounce is an amazing ability for things like Encore + Disable, Spore, Leech Seed, Toxic, and Will-o-Wisp, so this set can check Pokemon that rely on those moves.

If you think you may need to take more than one hit you can also choose not to mega evolve in order to take less damage, and if you fear the opponent setting up on you, or want to scout to see what they will do, you can use Iron Defense. Trick Room beats Perish Song users, at least the first time you play them*, and is of course crucial for the central idea of this set.

*With Meloetta, it becomes a 50-50 in every successive battle. It's advisable to use Trick Room in your first battle against a Meloetta, then not in your second battle, as the opponent will likely expect it and not use Trick Room themselves.

What does it beat? This Pokemon beats a host of popular Pokemon, more than you might expect. Here's the list, approximately descending in popularity:

both forms of Charizard, Mega Salamence (sometimes), Mega Gyarados, Perish Song Azumarill, virtually any Fighting-type (Mega Lopunny, Terrakion, Sawk, Hitmonlee, stuff like that), virtually any FEAR strategy, non-Iron Head Dragon-types (barring Specs Kyurem-Black), Alakazam and Mega Alakazam, Mega Sableye, Togekiss, Mega Altaria, Victini, Crustle, Smeargle, Whimsicott, and more.

Replays:

very basic demonstration of Fighting-type killing: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-216851794
reasons not to mega even when you attack sometimes: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-216853545

I wish I had more replays, but alas. I'll try to find some more good ones and add them.

edit: oh yeah, I realized a while after making this set that it's a bit like this. somewhat different though

 

[Gradient Facade]

The last argument I've seen is that Perish Song is uncompetitive. ...That's fair, but I think stall strategies are uncompetetive, and you don't here me crying for a ban of Alomomola. Perish Song, like stall, is a legit strategy that can be used creatively to make it more or less effective.

You are misunderstanding what makes a strategy uncompetitive in the realm of 1v1. Stall is simply a more defensive way to earn a win that is viable in countless different ways with many different pokemon that very much encourages thinking outside of the box and critically thinking about what can reliably beat top tier threats.

Perish song is just the opposite. Perish song is perish song is perish song is....wait for it.....perish song. All perish song sets are pretty much using the same three moves with the occasional magic coat, trick room, or curse thrown in to suit each specific perish songer. To make matters worse, perish song brings the horrendous luck factor that can give a perish songer a win over a pokemon that normally should beat it by simply getting lucky with multiple protects in a row.

It's kinda late so I'm not interested in making a mini novel in response. All I'm pointing out right now is that what makes a play style uncompetitive is not if people hate it, but if it relies heavily on luck and forces out whole play styles. It also doesn't help that PS chokes out other defensive play styles and intensifies a rock-paper-scissors situation that is already a bit of a gamble anways.

 

[DEG]

FROM THE DARKNESS, I PRESENT HOOPA AND HOOPA-U

When everything was dark, when the only thing that could be heard was the wind blowing through the trees a new Pokemon was getting ready to make it's splash into the 1v1 meta. At 3 am we could see rings in the sky and a sound playing between the trees accompanying the wind. We knew, it was here. Hoopa-Unbound and his little brother Hoopa ascended from the darkness to terrorize us.

What do you think Hoopa-U will offer to the 1v1 meta, will it show mercy? or will it destroy it?
What sets do you think Hoopa-U will bring with it while attacking the 1v1 meta?

Art by IceNinjaHard on DeviantArt

At a glance, Hoopa-U seems pretty powerful with a base 170 Attack, and a base 160 Special attack, accompanied with a plethora of moves to use as it's avantage, this pokemon finds itself being able to take on some threats that terrorized the 1v1 meta before. Can we say that Hoopa-U is our new hero? It has the advantage to take on both famous Perish song users Azumarill and Meloetta thanks to it's ability of wall breaking and it's access to gunk shot and hyper space fury combined with a choice band that can shut down both of them. Hoopa-Unbound can run many items just as it's buddy Kyurem-Black, in Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Band and event Nasty Plot Custap Berry. It has also access to trick room to a slow bulkier attacker. Hoopa-Unbound main weakness is it's typing that offers it no resistance and weakness or neutrality against common attacks which doesn't help it at all, it second weakness is it's defensive stats, with only 60 base defense Hoopa-Unbound falls prey to many common physical Pokemon such as Mawile Mega, Kyurem-Black, Gyarados Mega. The neutral speed is what suffers Hoopa-Unbound also, sitting at base 80 speed doesn't allow it to a common scarf user as Kyurem-Black and doesn't have the bulk to abuse it. It's common sets rely in Choice Band or Choice Specs both have a wallbreaking capability specially in dismantling stall with the help of Trick also. It can also destroy Counter-Coat users depends on the moves it runs notably, Hyperspace fury, Trick, Gunk shot, Energy Ball, Ice Punch, Psyshock, Psychic other moves that it can use to it's advantage are Hidden Power Rock, Focus Blast, Nasty Plot.

Here are two sets that I found using Hoopa-U:

Choice Band

Perish song pls(Hoopa-Unbound) @ Choice Band
Ability: Magician
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Atk / 120 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Trick
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch

While Hyperspace Fury and Gunk shot are pretty much indispensable for Hoopa-U the last 2 moves are up to your choice, I personally run Trick to deal with F.E.A.R users or stall Pokemon such as Charm Chansey, Deoxys-D. Drain Punch can be used to not get walled by the odds of Bisharp or Tyranitar which are both rare in the meta but still, Drain punch can be replaced for Ice Punch or Thunder Punch. EVs allows it to live a Charizard Mega Y's blast burn, a Meloetta's Hyper Beam and a PorygonZ Hyper Beam.

Choice Specs

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magician
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 20 SpA / 120 SpD
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Trick
- Psyshock

This is the best Hoopa-U to use, thanks to it's tweaked evs it can take on Kyurem-Black, Meloetta, PorygonZ, Charizard Mega Y. Focus blast is used to kill Kyurem-Black, Dark pulse helps against Meloetta and Deoxys-D while Trick is present as the same reasoning as above, and is more needed on this set since it can cripple Perish Song, Psychock is used for the blob and specially bulky Pokemon.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 306-361 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 262-310 (71.9 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Hoopa-Unbound in Sun: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

And now some counter calc:

20 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 454-536 (116.1 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
20 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
20 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 277-327 (89 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
20 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 255-300 (85.8 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
20+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 239-282 (99.1 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

That's all I have to bring about Hoopa-Unbound, I highly suggest trying the specs set if you want to have some fun with Hoopa-Unbound.

I haven't toyed with Hoopa and don't think I will do, cause it's an inferior Hoopa-Unbound, It's like using normal charizard instead of Charizard Mega Y but if you want to share some sets feel free!

Don't use unmature opinion to discuss both Hoopa, please test them on the ladder before talking.
Also head to the 1v1 viability ranking to discuss Hoopa's ranking in 1v1
Also If I made any error, please do fix.
Note: I'm going to add more sets as I discover more but that's just fresh to start some discussion about it.

​

 

[Nick~XVZ]

O GOD
Deg What have you done.
And it can bring huge offensive boosts, decent speed, but horrible Defense. Good Special Defense Though

As For "Little brother" i dont see it being good. 70 speed isnt that amazing. 60 Defense is horrible (imo). good special stats though. Several S rank pokes defeat it. however Huge ghost weakness can cause problems as well as dark.

 

[Reisen]

I confirm that Hoopa U definitely breaks Perish Song strategy, especially against Meloetta.

I've made several test and Meloetta can't stand against Band / Life orb Hoopa U, I've never met any Azumarill for the moment tho but I guess gunkshot is killing it.

 

[The Immortal]

I brought up Hackmons 1v1 in the OM room and it was a popular topic. So, I've added it to second post of this thread and it can be discussed here.

The initial bans are only Wonder Guard and OHKO clause.

You can play it via Custom Game if you want to play on the main server. Just bring three Pokemon, pick one, and pretend it's a 1v1 match.