Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[BlackJak]

Despite Hoopa U's amazing offensive stats, I don't think it is broken because of the predictability of it depending on the type and team it's on. On Dark, Hoopa-U more so is used as a choice scarfed pokemon, something dark sort of lacks because most dark mons don't have good speed, while serving as some extra help against fighting pokemon. Hoopa-U on Dark is used as more as a mixed revenge killer. Hoopa on Psychic, however, is more used more offensively with an item like a Specs, Band or Life Orb, because it doesn't need a scarf when Psychic has a better match up in the game as well as switch-ins to make up for it's defenses being Slowbro or Mew. Hoopa does have an extremely viable move pool, however it could also suffer from 4 Move Slot Syndrome which could be trouble when deciding what moves to slap on it. Hoopa-U's lackluster defenses also don't help it from being revenge killed by priority or any good physical move from a physical attacker. It's a powerful Pokemon with wall-breaking potential and versatility but it does come with weakness on both ends of the spectrum.

 

[Acast]

Since this thread is a bit dry at the moment i have decided to start a discussion.

Hoopa-U is something that was brought a lot in this thread earlier as a candidate for being suspected (By no means that's my final opinion at the moment so don't reply calling me ban hungry). At that time it was decided that it was too early to talk about Hoopa-U since it was just released and needed the meta needed time to get more stable. Well now a lot of time has passed and the meta has became more stable so now is a good time to discuss about this magnificent pokemon.
Why its so powerful?

The thing that makes Hoopa-U so powerful is its stats and movepool, which combined make it really unpredictable. There's no way predicting what set its running so there's never a safe switchin. The moveset can vary from Choice Scarf, Life Orb, Steel Breaker, Choice band, Choice Specs, Nasty Plot, etc.. You get the idea. This reminds me of Genesect which was banned for similar reasons. Hoopa-U's movepool is really wide and it can in theory cteam types such as Water, Ground, Flying etc.
Stats

Now lets look at its stats

HP:80

Attack:160

Defense:60

Sp. Atk:170

Sp. Def:130

Speed:80

The first thing that people usually notice is its monstrous Attack and Special Attack which make it a strong wallbreaker. The thing that most people don't notice though is its that nice Special Defense which again is a huge help
in crucial matches. Even though it's Speed and Defense kinda make it easier to kill its still a cannon with a nice special defense.
Few fun calcs about its bulk:

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 221-261 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Psychic: Hoopa-U has had a huge effect on psychic. Since its release Psychic has gone up in the usage stats and why shouldn't it? Now with the addition of Hoopa-U psychic doesn't really have any outright bad match-ups. (Maybe dark if it has Mega Sharpedo/Mega Gyara and Bisharp but thats why Colbur Slowbro is invented c:) The offensive core of Hoopa-U, Victini and M-Gardevoir handle all the weaknesses well. Hoopa-U takes care of Ghost, Victini handles bug and M-Garde puts some great offensive pressure to dark. And if you dont use Hoopa-U, You will surely loose Psychic vs Psychic match-ups. I wouldn't be suprised if Psychic would overtake Flying as the most used type soon.

Dark: For Dark Hoopa-U brought huge amount of coverage. Gunk Shot makes the Dark vs Fairy match-ups a lot more easier and Psychic STAB can just almost walk through poison and makes battles against fighting a lot more easier. Also the addition of Energy Ball can ease up the Ground/Water match ups. If you aren't using this on your Dark team you're insane.


I don't have a clear opinion on Hoopa-U (Part of the reason why im bringing this discussion here). It's Typing, Movepool, Stats and Unpredictability make it a force to be reckon with and you can never have a safe switchin against it. On the other hand again, it's lack of speed and awful defense make it easier to be killed by faster pokemon and priority. Is it broken? i don't know to be honest. One thing is sure though.. its one of the best pokemon avaible to use in monotype at the moment.

I love that we finally have a relevant discussion topic here and I completely agree that if we're going to talk about Hoopa-U at all, more than enough time has passed for the metagame to adapt to it.

I liked your post because of my above statements, but I don't necessarily agree with everything you said. It's offensive stats may be outstanding, but power is only good if you can attack the opponent before getting KOd. Specifically, I'm referring to its speed. Base 80 speed is not impressive at all for an offensive mon. It's so low that Choice Scarf is the only reliable way you can hope to sweep. Otherwise it's stuck as a wallbreaker, which it does extremely well, but I believe wallbreakers aren't as threatening as sweepers overall. Due to its poor speed and lack of priority, I think comparing it to Genesect is a bit of a stretch. They both most commonly use(d) Choice Scarf, but Hoopa-U is far more reliant on its item than Genesect ever was.

I'm fairly sure that Hoopa-U is manageable in the current metagame and at the moment I would be opposed to a suspect, but I'm certainly willing to listen to the other side. One of the biggest problems Hoopa-U poses is how easily it sweeps Ghost, so there are reasonable arguments in favor of a suspect.

 

[Eien]

To make a comment about its ability, I actually got surprised by a Focus Sash Hoopa-U that stole my Heracross's Choice Scarf and proceeded to outspeed the rest of my team. On Dark teams, with the assistance of Mega-Sableye providing Magic Bounce, and Mandibuzz providing Defog, I think it's an interesting idea to combat the fast scarfers that Dark might otherwise have trouble with. Of course, this is a niche set, but the support needed is already built into the generic Dark teams. To compensate for the lack of innate Scarf Hoopa-U, maybe attempt to use Scarf Hydreigon? I haven't experimented with it much, and am unsure whether such a set is actually viable enough to be worth using over the utility that having a Scarf would give on a type already cursed by low speed.

I think one issue with Hoopa-U is that while its physical defenses are low, they aren't so low to the extent that any priority freely kills it. Azelea posted a calc with Band Entei Espeed failing to OHKO even after rocks. Band Dragonite has to roll to OHKO after rocks. Further, even Bisharp, who has the strongest Sucker Punch, requires a Life Orb to reliably OHKO if rocks are up (It can never OHKO if rocks aren't without a Life Orb). Note, without rocks, the only unboosted priority capable of reliably OHKO'ing Hoopa-U is exactly a Banded or LO Adamant Bisharp or Honchkrow. This all assumes rocks even come down since as aforementioned, Dark has great anti-hazard control. I'd argue relying on priority requires TWO priority users. Notably, Hoopa-U gets the wonderful physical walls of Dark and Psychic. Mandibuzz, Sableye, and Slowbro laugh off every priority. At this point, Hoopa-U has already killed off one member on a HO team, or punched a decent hole into a Balance/Stall team because very little switches in for free reliably.

All this being said, I don't believe it's broken per se, but I do believe its downfalls are smaller than appear on paper.

 

[scpinion]

I actually think Hoopa-U is most similar to Greninja if we're going to compare it to something that was previously banned.

On Dark, it is typically played as a scarfer because the type lacks reliable revenge killers/sweepers. Having the Hyperspace moves go through subs further supports this role because it addresses one of the biggest threats to dark teams in general: sub + boosting move 'mons (e.g. keldeo). I'd go as far as to say that almost any high-level dark team is required to have a scarf hoopa-u. There just isn't another 'mon to fill that role.

On Psychic, it is tailored to break what the rest of the team struggles with. The Steel-breaker set is the perfect example of this; although it can be designed to break other types as well.

This is precisely what LO Greninja did on Water. Ice Beam for Flying, Gunk Shot for Fairy, Dark Pulse for Psychic, Shadow Sneak for Breloom, Hydro Pump for Steel, Grass Knot for Ground, U-Turn to keep momentum, etc. etc. You picked 5 Water-type 'mons then let Greninja cover the type(s) they were weak to.

We are doing the same thing on Psychic teams these days: pick your mega-evo and scarfer, then let Hoopa-U cover the type(s) they struggle with.

Acast hit on the main reason why I don't think Hoopa-U is broken, but Greninja was: Speed. LO Greninja hit a speed tier that required a scarf to reliably check it, while scarf Greninja outsped the metagame. Non-scarf Hoopa can be checked by most major offensive threats in the meta, thus most teams (rip Ghost) have some way to play around it.

All this said, I'm interested to see where everyone else stands on this? Are there other niches for Hoopa-U that we've yet to cover/address (that sash magician stuff is very interesting). For that matter, I think Sash lead Hoopa-U can be built to get a kill on most of the top types?

Sub-NP is another set that I really thought would be successful, but hasn't seen much use. Has anyone explored that set?

 

[Isza]

Sabella has, might wanna get his insight on it.

 

[Wanka]

I do think Azelea brought up a good point about hoopa's special bulk. As pointed out, any faster physical wall breaker will more than likely be able to revenge or prevent hoopa from coming in. On the flip side, a lot of common special revenge killers fail to take out hoopa because of its substantial special bulk for a wall breaker. (e.g. lati's, hydreigon, chandelure, gengar, scarf toge, non specs keldeo variants, nidos, landorus, thundies, electric wall breakers, and probably more but those are just the mons off the top of my head.) Especially in a tier like monotype where types can at times be more specially oriented can really struggle (elec, poison, flying sometimes but has access to fast u turners, standard dragon builds where kyurem and dragonite are the top revenge killers for hoopa, ghost's only two mons that outspeed hoopa cant kill it (geng has to play d bond games), ground can struggle because exca and chomper are the main two revenge killers. band mamo threatens with shard but otherwise has to play with speed ties.

The risk reward factor is whats keeping it unbanned just like some of the other strong wall breakers in mono like garde and kyu b. These mons are so versatile and bring lots a good things to a team but also come with downfall that can put you up shit creek. hoopa and garde have 0 access to priority and they let some of the tiers most fearsome wall breakers into play. Kyu b's sub par defensive typing for a dragon type of all types can be its downfall as well.

I see it as a wall breaker that while very slowly, is being adapted to which is really nice for the tier. When you can keep mons like hoopa in and don't have to ban them, it shows strength as a tier because we have the ability to adapt and take on new threats as opposed to just having hissy fits.

Solid stuff lads.

 

[Tylacto]

It's nice to see Hoopa-U come up again because I believe that if there's anything that deserves discussion within our current meta then this would have to be it.

I remember writing a large (mildly bias) post about it a while back recently after it was released that you can read here. Whilst I still agree with a lot of the points, I agree that the meta has adapted for the better, and that Wanka raised a nice point in that it shows our strength as a tier.

The only thing I'd want to say is about how Hoopa-U can potentially take the enjoyment factor out of a couple of match-ups, particularly when facing Ghost and Psychic Monotypes. Not much of an explanation needed for what it does to Ghost... and for Psychic if they don't have a scarf Hoopa-U of their own, the match pretty much becomes a u-turning war, which whilst I'd like to think nobody believes is ideal... it's not the end of the world.

To fully consider Hoopa-U I think we'd have to imagine the tier without it. Sure it brings diversity for types, being another mon, which is always good, but I figured it's good food for thought to imagine how different would the tier really be without it.

It seems as if the vast majority of us are comfortable with Hoopa, so if the thread wants to change direction to another mon or play style I certainly wouldn't be opposed. If it goes quiet though I'm happy to bring up Dedenne stall or Minun nasty plot pass although I'd rather not...

 

[Wish9]

Hoopa-U is basically a slower but stronger Greninja with special bulk that does a similar role the nerfed frog poor Greninja left in our hearts. It has the coverage to cover anything but it's bad defensive type along with poor defense and below average speed leave much to be desired. In short, I don't think Unbound should be banned and I go with the same reasons Tylacto and scpinion said above.

 

[feen]

Dark doesn't really show the true nature of Hoopa, as the only prevailing set is Scarf, promoting its matchup versus Psychic and Ghost, even though Psychic already has a lot of trouble facing Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, and Bisharp. I'll go ahead and say this: Hoopa is not broken and should never be a topic to be suspected for Dark Monotypes.

On the other hand, Hoopa on Psychic is a different story. It has a plethora of sets it can abuse: Life Orb, Specs, Sub Lefties. Moreover, Hoopa makes Psychic even more dangerous, making it one of the best types and potentially broken too, especially considering the fact that Psychic is so versatile. I think we might opt for a complex ban after all...

Another thing that could be worthwhile is seeing the impact Mew has on Psychic teams, it can act as the best support Pokemon for the type. It can cripple opponents leading for a cleaner Hoopa sweep, as well as keep hazards off and heal the team too. It's kind of like Zapdos ban on Flying, it itself doesn't seem to be broken, but the support it gives the team might be. What do you think? Is Mew's support making Psychic a type that's too good to be allowed now? I'm open to criticisms.

 

[Balto]

Dark doesn't really show the true nature of Hoopa, as the only prevailing set is Scarf, promoting its matchup versus Psychic and Ghost, even though Psychic already has a lot of trouble facing Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, and Bisharp. I'll go ahead and say this: Hoopa is not broken and should never be a topic to be suspected for Dark Monotypes.

On the other hand, Hoopa on Psychic is a different story. It has a plethora of sets it can abuse: Life Orb, Specs, Sub Lefties. Moreover, Hoopa makes Psychic even more dangerous, making it one of the best types and potentially broken too, especially considering the fact that Psychic is so versatile. I think we might opt for a complex ban after all...

Another thing that could be worthwhile is seeing the impact Mew has on Psychic teams, it can act as the best support Pokemon for the type. It can cripple opponents leading for a cleaner Hoopa sweep, as well as keep hazards off and heal the team too. It's kind of like Zapdos ban on Flying, it itself doesn't seem to be broken, but the support it gives the team might be. What do you think? Is Mew's support making Psychic a type that's too good to be allowed now? I'm open to criticisms.

Kinda an interesting thought. Felt similar in XY when Medicham psychic was dominating. Mew puts extreme attackers in great positions.
However, I still think it's more logical to focus on the attackers themselves. Hoopa does magical things on psychic, and is easily one of the best wallbreakers right now. Following that, I don't think hoopa is completely unquestionable on dark. Sableye+Hoopa is easily one of the best pairs in the meta right now, and dark is right up there with psychic.

 

[scpinion]

Update time!

Now that we have a more stable metagame this thread isn't seeing the activity it used to, which is really a shame.

There are certainly plenty of things to discuss in the ORAS metagame. Topics do not have to be limited to potentially broken Pokemon! We want to field discussion on:

• how to deal with/play certain type matchups
• how to break common cores
• non-broken, yet diverse Pokemon
• metagame trends
• underrated threats
• and more!

Seeing as this is way too much to discuss all at once, the council members are going to start setting a topic in the thread. We'll plan to keep topics for ~1-2 weeks or until discussion dies. We ask that you guys please stay on topic!

Also, this is a community thread, so we want your suggestions for topics! Just send them to the council in a PM on Smogon.

The Hoopa-U discussion has mostly died out, so we're going to go ahead and set a new topic. If you want to continue that discussion let us know via PM and we can bring it back up later!

We'll start with something everyone must prepare for when playing Monotype: Flying teams.

How do you break the omnipresent Skarmory + Zapdos core with your favorite teams?​

We especially want to hear from people that play types that struggle with Flying!
Post your replays, sets, strategies, etc.

Edit: Whoever edited the skarm pic gets major props for picking a terribly bad image :)​

 

[Zar]

I'll start things off from a Fire user's view.Flying is a type that poses a problem for most types.After searching for stuff to deal with it, I finally found the best way to deal with not only Skarmory+Zapdos,but Flying it self,which is Entei.

​

Entei @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Extreme Speed

This is the set I like to use as it covers types Fire is weak to such as (Flying,Rock,Fairy etc.). Nothing on Flying wants to come in on a Sacred Fire from an Entei risking the 50% chance of Burn. Stone Edge OHKO's most Flying types except the obvious Skarmory,Landorus etc. While Extreme Speed is great for overall priority and revenge killing weakened mons. Iron Head helps against Togekiss if I don't want to risk the miss. Some Calcs that show Entei against Skarm+Zapdos and Flying in-general:

252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 242-289 (72.4 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 328-387 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 153-181 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 296-351 (95.1 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Some teammates that help Entei against Flying:

Rotom-H: Immunity to Ground moves and Volt Switch Support.

Victini: Choice Scarf user helps cleaning up Late game.

Charizard-Mega-Y: Sun Support and overall amazing Attacker that nothing wants to switch into.

 

[Dece1t]

From a Ground User's perspective, Flying can actually be 1 of the easier matchups it has. A lot of the mons have great rock coverage, and are fairly bulky. In general though, Mega Garchomp rips through that core in particular, Fire Blast is an easy 2KO on Skarmory, and Stone Edge in Sand can OHKO Zapdos. Not to mention, Hippowdon can be troublesome to take out, so if played smart, Stealth Rocks will be on the field for a while, and Zapdos will have to come in eventually, and the cycle repeats itself again. Landorus-I w/ Gravity also has the ability to shred through the type, running into problems only with maybe Mega Gyarados if it manages to get a boost. (Sorry mine isn't as fancy as Zarif's, but I think it's pretty straight to the point).

 

[feen]

Psychic types have a pretty easy matchup against the great Flying core. Here are a few Pokemon:

Hide

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Trick / Blue Flare
- Bolt Strike
- V-create
- U-turn

V-Create ravages through the core, as it can potentially KO both Zapdos and Skarmory. Pretty straight forward.

Gardevoir (Gardevoir-Mega) (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
- Taunt

Eats up anything from Zapdos, and most Skarmory are usually Physically Defensive, and thus loses to this monster. Hits both of them extremely hard and is near impossible switching into it.

Medicham @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch

Ice Punch can KO most Zapdos, and High Jump Kick 2HKOs Skarmory. Another great threat to Flying teams.

Apart from these 3, there are a few more which are dangerous:

Taunt Rocks Roost Wisp set can just keep stalling the core til it dies.

Sub CM is very dangerous. AV is less threatening but Psyshock still hurts Zapdos a ton.

After a +2 CM and if no Toxic on Zapdos, it's over.

Cosmic Power + Taunt + Seismic Toss + Recover just destroys this core.

There a few more I guess. These are all in my mind now.

 

[Subjugator]

I know that this may not be the most viable set, but I found that Mixed Tyranitar does a pretty good job at stopping this core. For instance, running a certain amount of Special Attack EVs, and a Rash Nature, plus a Life Orb roasts Skarmory. You could also run something like Stone Edge with some Attack investment to break past Zapdos. Mixed Tyranitar makes pretty good use of its movepool and helps break past this core on Mono-Dark, who in my experience has had some trouble with Flying in the past (but then again, I could be wrong).

200 Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 361-429 (94.2 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
56+ SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 307-361 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

[Tylacto]

Electric's Perspective
Ok so despite Electric supposedly being at an advantage against Flying, it's one of the types that is actually most troubled by it.

Not being able to beat one of the most common types on ladder would be a bit of a problem, so this core (or mainly just Zapdos for the most part) is something I personally feel is severely understated as a threat.

Sadly, (Specially Defensive) Zapdos walls any special attack from an Electric attacker, barring something such as Nasty Plot Thundurus, which sadly isn't as viable as it is fun. So because of this, almost all Electric teams are forced to run Toxic somewhere within their team.

(Toxic Mega Ampharos/Zapdos)
A common example of this is on Mega Ampharos, as Toxic combined with Mold Breaker is a nice counter to Mega-Sableye, which is another threat on its own. However not every team wants to run Mega Ampharos, or Toxic on it for that matter, so often Zapdos (On the electric team) is forced to run Toxic, something that is viable anyway for being able to stall out threats.

I'd just like to raise the point that if the Flying team has Heal Bell Togekiss as well, or even worse Gliscor, the match-up can become unwinnable in many cases.

If you want a direct counter however there's a mon that seems to have gone under the radar quite a lot since ORAS was released.

(Electivire)
Don't get me wrong there's reasons why Electivire has gone out of favor in this meta, but that doesn't mean that it's not viable.

Electivire Sets

Electivire @ Life Orb OR Choice Band
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Cross Chop
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Volt Switch

OR

Electivire @ Focus Sash
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Taunt

Both sets are helpful against numerous other monotypes, but the key point with Electivire here is its access to Ice Punch. This allows it to 2HKO Zapdos, and also defeat Gliscor as well, solving that problem...

 

[Ramy]

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD
Calm Nature
- Heal Bell
- Toxic
- Volt Switch
- Scald

With this on water, zapdos nor skarm can touch this thing with its attacks. Volt switch and scald to attack, toxic for zapdos, and heal bell just incase zapdos has toxic. Simple as that.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 59-69 (14.7 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)
0 Atk Skarmory Iron Head vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 19-23 (4.7 - 5.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever (lol)
Zapdos Discharge vs. Volt Absorb Lanturn: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time (lol)
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 40 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 37-44 (9.2 - 10.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever lol)

 

[Vid]

+

While people are talking about this core I'd like to mention that there are different Mons that can be added to make this core be a lot more dangerous defensively making it a lot more effective and a bigger pain to deal with. I feel like these Mons should be mentioned to show the core has lots of viable defensive options to make the core better.

partners

Togekiss is used as a special defensive wall (in addition to Zapdos if it is used defensively stall breaker and choice scarf are viable as well). It provides Heal Bell Support making it harder to wear the core down with status and is very well known for using paraflinch as well. It can also be an additional defogger as well.

Tornadus-T is also a Pokemon that enhances the core. With the assault vest item it is able to beat LO Nidoking or Scarf Nidoking (big threat to this core) 1v1 (provided hurricane does not miss) It also a good pivot u-turning and keeping the momentum up for the core. It also has regenerator which is an added bonus as well.

Landrous-T is an option to use as another physical wall in addition to Skarmory it also can open the doors to hazard stack flying. It also in general is useful with the intimidate ability lowering opposing foes attack

This acts as an additional defoger and a way to deal with Sword Dance/ DD sweepers with foul play. This is probably one of least useful defensive ad dons. Although it is very bulky on both sides. Also has access to knock off

Gyarados is used as a specially defensive tank with T-wave Taunt Rest etc. Although not as common still can be useful.

Articuno is another specially defensive wall in addition to Zapdos. Although it requires lots of support (defog) it still has a niche. Another thing to mention is that it has access to heal bell.

Gliscor is usually a specially defensive wall(it can be used as a defensive wall as well). Having access to moves like Toxic Taunt Roost Protect etc. helping the core stall out bulkier cores (P2+Chansey is a good example). Also having access to Knock Off to get rid of Eviolites, Leftovers, Choiced Items etc.

Something that breaks Skarmory plus Zapdos and flying teams in general

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Roost
- Earth Power
Kyurem-B especially Life Orb breaks the Skarmory+Zapdos core. With its Bolt Beam Coverage (Ice Beam+Fusion Bolt). This core is not safe from Kyurem-B making although it is only on two types Ice which does not struggle with this core and Dragon which benefits greatly vs Flying with Kyurem-B
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 281-330 (73.3 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 242-285 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
​

 

[Subjugator]

Rotom-Mow checks this core on your Monotype Grass Team, a type that would normally have virtually no answers to this core. The combination of it's bulk, power, and typing allows it to do some substantial damage to Skarmory and Zapdos, if given a Choice Specs. Rotom-Mow also is one of Grass's few checks against Monotype Flying in general, hurting many options such as Togekiss, Mega Gyarados, Mandibuzz, and many others. Choice Specs Rotom-Mow effectively allows it to smash through Skarmory with ease, as well as hurting Physically Defensive Zapdos and doing decent damage to Specially Defensive Zapdos.

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire/Ice/Rock/Trick

The EVs allow it to avoid a 2HKO from 0 Atk Defensive Skarmory, and then use Thunderbolt. The EVs also let it survive Zapdos's Heat Wave, as well as a Hurricane from a Life Orb-boosted Tornadus, a +1 Ice Fang from Jolly Mega Gyarados ~60% of the time. Rotom-Mow may require assistance from brethren such as Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and other defensive options on Grass to help it survive. Overall, Specs Rotom-Mow is a powerful threat to this core that, with proper support, can successfully defeat this core.

 

[Dece1t]

Rotom-Mow checks this core on your Monotype Grass Team, a type that would normally have virtually no answers to this core. The combination of it's bulk, power, and typing allows it to do some substantial damage to Skarmory and Zapdos, if given a Choice Specs. Rotom-Mow also is one of Grass's few checks against Monotype Flying in general, hurting many options such as Togekiss, Mega Gyarados, Mandibuzz, and many others. Choice Specs Rotom-Mow effectively allows it to smash through Skarmory with ease, as well as hurting Physically Defensive Zapdos and doing decent damage to Specially Defensive Zapdos.

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire/Ice/Rock/Trick

The EVs allow it to avoid a 2HKO from 0 Atk Defensive Skarmory, and then use Thunderbolt. The EVs also let it survive Zapdos's Heat Wave, as well as a Hurricane from a Life Orb-boosted Tornadus, a +1 Ice Fang from Jolly Mega Gyarados ~60% of the time. Rotom-Mow may require assistance from brethren such as Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and other defensive options on Grass to help it survive. Overall, Specs Rotom-Mow is a powerful threat to this core that, with proper support, can successfully defeat this core.

I would actually suggest to you changing it to a Scarf set, because Togekiss a problem as well, and rotom is able to outspeed it. Also,

252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 160-190 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's a problem. I would actually pair it with Breloom w/ Rock Tomb. Most Zapdos's tend to run speed evs to creep adamant ones, so remember to run Jolly. Especially with LO, that's gonna hurt.

 

[Chleg]

I guess I'll cover Ghost's perspective.

Ghost has a very limited Pokemon pool and generally struggles against Flying which includes Skarmory and Zapdos. However, Ghost still has some viable Pokemon which can remove this reliable Flying core.

Chandelure

Chandelure @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Taunt / Substitute


Chandelure is by far the best Pokemon for breaking the Skarmory + Zapdos core. It can simply break the core apart by clicking Fire Blast and can prevent the core from roosting up with taunt. It's SpA can dent almost all Flying Pokemon that switch into this. Fire Blast is the most powerful but least reliable move. It removes Skarmory and Zapdos easily with only the miss to really worry about. Shadow Ball is a more reliable move where it still dents Skarmory and other Pokemon if they need to be finished off. Energy Ball is used more for other types, and only for Mega Gyarados on Flying.

It's EVs are tailored to maximize damage output and speed output. However, you can shift some speed into HP to tank more hits and still outspeed Zapdos (or base 70's) if wanted. 4 SpD helps with tanking more special attacks while putting it in Def does nothing in the meta.

Chandelure is designed to pressure and wallbreak defensive cores like Skarmory + Zapdos and other defensive cores, giving it momentum. It can also be used as a late game sweeper after threats like Mega Gyarados and Tornadus-Therian have been removed.

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Trick

This set is a lot more reliant on Mega Charizard-Y and doesn't break the Skarmory + Zapdos core as well. However, it becomes extremely threatening if you can make it get Flash Fire under Sun which 2HKO's everything that Flying has which includes: Mega Charizard-Y and Dragonite with the multiscale intact. This is a set generally less for wallbreaking and more for sweeping but still a great Chandelure set.

Threats

Hide

These Pokemon simply wall Chandelure every way. This almost always forces Chandelure out which gives the flying user momentum. One of the most threatening Pokemon for Ghost.

Tornadus-Therian can tank Chandelure if it as Assault Vest and can kill Chandelure with Knock Off or gain momentum with U-Turn. Tornadus-Therian gains back its help with Regenerator, making the damage Chandelure did almost useless.

Not a nice Pokemon. Dragonite can tank Chandelure if it's multiscale is intact and take it out with Earthquake or Outrage. However, if the multiscale is broken, Chandelure can remove Dragonite with a 50/50 speed tie.

Teammates

Hide

Golurk is a great teammate since it can put rocks up and let Chandelure force opponents to not defog or sac their core. It can also break multiscale for Dragonite and let Chandelure sweep, if possible.

Jellicent can absorb Water attacks, something that Chandelure and generally most Ghost teams dislike. It is also one of the few things that can tank Tornadus-Therian.

Others

Hoopa

Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Energy Ball

Hoopa is a less common but just as effective Pokemon to remove the Skarmory + Zapdos core. Psyshock and Shadow Ball itself can dent Zapdos + Skarmory itself with 100% accuracy, respectively. It's no slouch either, as almost no Flying Pokemon can switch into it. Focus Blast is used more for Dark types and Energy Ball is used for Water types and generally only for Mega Gyarados on Flying.

It's EVs are used to maximize its damage and speed output. Timid is used since there are a lot of speed creep Zapdos which outspeed Adamant/Modest max speed base 70's. The 4 extra EVs are nothing to worry about and can be played anywhere.

Hoopa is here to break defensive cores like Skarmory + Zapdos. It generally doesn't give momentum but almost always gets a kill or heavily dent something everytime it switches in because nothing but Dragonite can switch in and not get 2HKOd.


Threats

Hide

Hoopa can predict a Focus Blast onto Mega Gyarados but if this gets in safely, Hoopa generally switches out in the risk of Crunch.

Dragonite is the only one on Flying that can actually not get 2HKOd if mulitscale is up and safely KO Hoopa at the same time. It is basically forced to switch out from here.

Teammates

Hide

Taking Dark moves? Yes please. Mega Sableye can switch into a lot of Dark and Ghost moves, 2 types that Hoopa is 4x weak to. A Ghost team almost always has Mega Sableye.

Others

​

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Ok so I guess I can go over some of the things that bug has for this core.
Mega Heracross

Horny (Heracross-Mega) (M) @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed/Earthquake/Swords Dance

This thing is a friggin monster and I'm surprised it isn't used more, an adamant nature can almost guarantee a 2hko on skarm and an ohko on zapdos and even with jolly this pokemon can break through the core as long as skarm has taken some prior damage.

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-172 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 390-460 (101.8 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Armaldo

Big Fish (Armaldo) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
alternate spread:248 HP / 56 Atk / 204 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge/Rock Blast
- Aqua Jet
- Earthquake

Now before any of you call me a meme I would suggest you take a look at what this set can do, a +2 stone edge from max attacked Armaldo does a min of about 60% whereas an earthquake on the roost can do a min of about 80. This means that if you swords dance on a double switch between zapdos/skarm you will end up forcing them into an extremely hard situation where they can easily lose skarm and make it a hell of a lot easier for your other physical attackers to break through.
The alternate spread I posted is something I found alot more useful on the set and while it doesn't break through skarm as easily as it would with max attack, the spread is worth trying out. It should also be noted that when facing mono steel, if you swords dance on a doublade switchin trying to spinblock you will be able to earn a 2hko on Doublade assuming he doesn't switch out.
+2 252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Armaldo Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ok so I don't feel like going into this post that much more but basically all you need to know about these 2 is that bulkvolc can set up all over skarmdos cores that lack toxic whereas offensive volc that has a life orb or fire blast can dish out insane amounts of damage with a life orb fire blast being able to 2hko while unboosted but you should try to get rid of gyarados first. I have to admit that I was seriously considering whether or not I should put galvantula on here but I decided it was a pretty honorable mention, with a life orb Galvantula being able to 2hko zapdos when rocks are up but this is a scenario that you might not find to often. Toxic Galv is also a fantastic option with it's ability to potentially cripple zapdos for the match but heal bell togekiss can make it quite redundant.

 

[Confluxx [Old]]

This is how you beat this core from Psychic's perspective:

Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 112 Atk / 144 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Energy Ball
- Drain Punch
- Dark Pulse

112 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 234-277 (61 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
144 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 261-308 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This thing alone can break that core as Knock Off is a 2HKO on Zapdos from full, and Dark Pulse OHKOs Skarmory after rocks or if it wants to come in on Knock Off expecting it to be purely physical. You do however need to dodge a Discharge para from Zapdos.

Good partners for mixed Hoopa-U in case something unexpected happens are basically mons that can beat both Zapdos and Skarmory. These include Mega Gardevoir which can 2HKO Skarmory with Hyper Voice and Psyshock for Zapdos although it does pretty much the same as Hyper Voice. You can also hit Skarmory with Focus Blast but it's a 2HKO anyway so not worth the miss unless you get a low roll with the Hyper Voice. Mega Medicham's Ice Punch comes very close to OHKOing from full and High Jump Kick is a 2HKO on Skarmory. Victini is also an option but I wouldn't recommend it as locking yourself into V-Create gives Dragonite a chance to set up, and the drops can also screw you over.

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt / Bullet Punch

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 312-368 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 201-237 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Substitute

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 153-180 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 178-211 (46.4 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 209-246 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Anttya]

B-b-b-but it's not even broken D:

Anyways, this is how I beat opposing SkarmDos teams.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Discharge
- Toxic
- Defog
- Roost

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Earthquake / Knock Off

If the opposing team doesn't have a Gliscor, then you can pretty much stallbreak / toxic stall SkarmDos. Zapdos is a free switchin vs Skarmory, and you're free to Discharge or predict the Zapdos and use Toxic. Once Zapdos is toxiced, just go to Gliscor and Taunt everything. There is nothing SkarmDos can do to Gliscor, and you can go on from there by bringing in wallbreakers like Zard-Y.
Edit: This also beats Togekiss :D

 

[BlackJak]

Shout out to the Chef

Nidoqueen @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Taunt
- Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power

Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower/Thunderbolt

The Nido family is able to do work against the Skarm Dos core thanks to Sheer Force, Bolt Beam Coverage, Toxic immunity against Zapdos' Toxic, and Life Orb. Nidoqueen can taunt preventing Zapdos from Roosting using Defog, set rocks and just spam Ice beam or flamethrower. Nidoqueen is used with a sash to ensure hazards on any team(Could be life orb if you want more power) while Nidoking is mainly the hard hitter with the life orb.

After the Skarm Dos core is down, you can bring in mons like Scolipede or Gengar to finish off the team from there.