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Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Celticpride
- Start date
Really gross misconception of how you would use Volcanion aside (its not checking waters nor it should be dying at the rate you're describing), its used for its wallbreaking power. The resttalk set bulky set is actually alright but it's not surprising it would see much little use in WCOP or now since nobody really wants to explore with a mon like volcanion with easier options, especially in a position where you need to focus on winning, less valued in casual settings.
Volcanions problem is more about its team synergy than actual effectiveness. Its hard to build around and its only kind of viable with Exca and Latios as hazard removers, both of them complicating certain weaknesses which would need more coverage. People also got really overprepared for volcanion when it first came cause at the time a lot of old teams / archetypes keeled over to it and it was definitely not just hitting one thing and dying.
With that said its usage and consistency probably won't improve. People adapted pretty quickly and its not overly difficult to take into account.
Also Ben gay used Weezing on his stall squad.
im actually not surprised that the top 5 mons can form a team by itself and then all you need to do is slap a mega on it. convenient huh?
dnite also has quite the surprising showing. winning 4/6 games including one where fly dnite was used is pretty interesting in this current metagame. kinda solidifies that flying types are really one of the best typings in the current metagame. not looking too forward to olt tho honestly cause a lot of people are just mindless spamming the same few teams ;-;
dnite also has quite the surprising showing. winning 4/6 games including one where fly dnite was used is pretty interesting in this current metagame. kinda solidifies that flying types are really one of the best typings in the current metagame. not looking too forward to olt tho honestly cause a lot of people are just mindless spamming the same few teams ;-;
Yeah, win rate of starmie and gyarados are quite suprising. 60 for starmie and 72 for gyarados is above average. It makes a lot of sense with gyarados but starmie is kinda mystery to me. Which set was commonly used? Bulky I guess.
And I cant't say if you are serious about lati/lando suspect test (because of ban omnipresent Salemancer in uu) but meta without these two would be really intresting to see.
Lol, gliscor.
And I cant't say if you are serious about lati/lando suspect test (because of ban omnipresent Salemancer in uu) but meta without these two would be really intresting to see.
Lol, gliscor.
gonna note a few nifty things that have not been mentioned yet, magnezone has a nice 59% win rate which kinda surprised me a little but with a lot of steel types running about like ferrothorn, skarmory and jirachi I don't really blame mag getting good win rate and usage for wcop.
hippowdon despite getting alot of slack recently hippo does have a nice 64.71% win rate with 17 uses since it a pokemon that is not getting the love it use to get in XY and still proving it can do the job in a big tournament like the wcop which I always enjoy seeing unpopular mons succeeding.
none OU pokemon like volcarona and gastrodon are also facing success in the wcop with both getting decent usage with 11 and 12 uses volcarona I feel like it sets up on pokemon quite easy like latios and serperior then one quiver dance which turns volca into a monster while gastrodon benefits from having mons like diancie and jirachi being common and when gastro sets up curse it just walls lando-t and mega lopunny much easier including the fact that random scald burns are still pretty annoying.
hippowdon despite getting alot of slack recently hippo does have a nice 64.71% win rate with 17 uses since it a pokemon that is not getting the love it use to get in XY and still proving it can do the job in a big tournament like the wcop which I always enjoy seeing unpopular mons succeeding.
none OU pokemon like volcarona and gastrodon are also facing success in the wcop with both getting decent usage with 11 and 12 uses volcarona I feel like it sets up on pokemon quite easy like latios and serperior then one quiver dance which turns volca into a monster while gastrodon benefits from having mons like diancie and jirachi being common and when gastro sets up curse it just walls lando-t and mega lopunny much easier including the fact that random scald burns are still pretty annoying.
I think the fact that Magnezone almost always seems to have a good win percentage (70% in SPL, 59% in WCoP) shouldn't really be that surprising if you think about it. Magnezone is basically the only form of trapping we have left (besides Dugtrio). Being able to target and eliminate a certain Pokemon is something that is unparalleled in Pokemon and the control or advantage it can give you in a game can be instrumental to the outcome of the game. When building for an opponent, you're more likely to use Magnezone if you feel you have a chance to exploit their use of Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Mega Scizor/Jirachi etc. If your opponent almost never brings Pokemon that Magnezone can exploit, it'd be unlikely that you'd have any reason to bring it therefore meaning if you've decided to bring Magnezone you've likely assessed that it'll be a worthwhile pick and will have some effect on the game. Unlike Pokemon such as Landorus or Latios which are used moreso due to the fact that they're excellent at providing certain roles neccesary to every team, Magnezone is a Pokemon you're only going to choose to bring if you think it has a good matchup and will be able to pull the game in your favour.
Basically, if you're bringing Magnezone its probable that you're bringing it because you've done research and assessed that its an acceptable risk to take for the potential reward of having a good matchup, which means Magnezone is more likely to have a high win percentage since it's only being brought in situations where its positive traits are accentuated which is something most other Pokemon don't have the luxury of doing. Yes it will still have games where it is brought and will be useless, but those games will be less often for Magnezone than for most other Pokemon since if you believe Magnezone isn't going to be effective against the kinds of builds that your opponent likes then you wouldn't be bringing it in the first place.
tl;dr
Magnezone is only brought when you're trying to punish someone for using Steels, you don't just add a Magnezone to your team like you would a Landorus or Amoonguss. It's a matchup specific, user specific Pokemon which is unlike almost any other, thus its naturally higher win percentage.
Fun Facts:
Basically, if you're bringing Magnezone its probable that you're bringing it because you've done research and assessed that its an acceptable risk to take for the potential reward of having a good matchup, which means Magnezone is more likely to have a high win percentage since it's only being brought in situations where its positive traits are accentuated which is something most other Pokemon don't have the luxury of doing. Yes it will still have games where it is brought and will be useless, but those games will be less often for Magnezone than for most other Pokemon since if you believe Magnezone isn't going to be effective against the kinds of builds that your opponent likes then you wouldn't be bringing it in the first place.
tl;dr
Magnezone is only brought when you're trying to punish someone for using Steels, you don't just add a Magnezone to your team like you would a Landorus or Amoonguss. It's a matchup specific, user specific Pokemon which is unlike almost any other, thus its naturally higher win percentage.
Fun Facts:
- Magnezone was brought in 3 of the 5 ORAS games in WCoP Finals
- Of the 22 games in which Magnezone was used, only 4 of those games featured opposing teams with no trappable targets
- Magneton was used once in WCoP for one win in which the opposing player used a Mega Scizor
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Sabstall increased in diversity since OLT starts. Rethink a year ago, sablenite was suspect after the OLT and recolts 53.5%
Sablenite
Ban: 99
Do Not Ban: 86
Ban % = 53.5%
You need to use specific mons to win, or make plays with high risks and few rewards: basicly, lost a tour and gain a layer on your side... Few hazard setuppers can pass Sableye and mostly are subotpimal choices in another situation, I even see Metal Burst on Sab... In the other side clean EH is a piece of cake (Dug/Quag remove Bisharp with ease), and Sab prevents to use rapid spin which force you to play defog: in other words, lost a turn who could benefit to your opponant.
Weavilestall = Vincune, Clefable Flamethrower, Togekiss NPHB, Bisharp GK
CuneZapstall = Clefable storedpower, Manaphy RD/CM/Energyball full SpA, SubCMKeldeo.
VapShedStall = Manaphy Hp Fire, Clefable toxic.
SeismiShedstall = Togekiss NPHB, Manaphy HP Fire
I talked with Boudouche few days ago and he is not against reopen the debat about Sab. I didn't know for the other council members.
Sablenite
Ban: 99
Do Not Ban: 86
Ban % = 53.5%
You need to use specific mons to win, or make plays with high risks and few rewards: basicly, lost a tour and gain a layer on your side... Few hazard setuppers can pass Sableye and mostly are subotpimal choices in another situation, I even see Metal Burst on Sab... In the other side clean EH is a piece of cake (Dug/Quag remove Bisharp with ease), and Sab prevents to use rapid spin which force you to play defog: in other words, lost a turn who could benefit to your opponant.
Weavilestall = Vincune, Clefable Flamethrower, Togekiss NPHB, Bisharp GK
CuneZapstall = Clefable storedpower, Manaphy RD/CM/Energyball full SpA, SubCMKeldeo.
VapShedStall = Manaphy Hp Fire, Clefable toxic.
SeismiShedstall = Togekiss NPHB, Manaphy HP Fire
I talked with Boudouche few days ago and he is not against reopen the debat about Sab. I didn't know for the other council members.
Way more ways to actually combat those types of teams and overexaggerating the effectiveness of some of those (the Vap / Shed / MSab ones are super horseshit) a bit but this is definitely not the place to start up a discussion place for potential suspects , for obvious and not so obvious ones. If OU council wants to look at something let them do it on their own accord.
yo. so i posted this in the sqsa thread and i feel it's somewhat relevant enough for metagame trends to be posted here.
hp ice / fire lando-t is the future. legit. with the metagame being so glued together by lando-t , if you have something viable enough to deal with the more physically oriented flyers like mpins and talon, then hp ice lando-t can help increase the chance of winning since a lot of games come down to who can knock out the opposing lando-t first since it has so much role compression into one mon but lacks the viable recovery.
tldr - hp ice lando-t is the future.
hp ice / fire lando-t is the future. legit. with the metagame being so glued together by lando-t , if you have something viable enough to deal with the more physically oriented flyers like mpins and talon, then hp ice lando-t can help increase the chance of winning since a lot of games come down to who can knock out the opposing lando-t first since it has so much role compression into one mon but lacks the viable recovery.
tldr - hp ice lando-t is the future.
Agree a lot with the above post: HP Ice Landorus is quite effective at not only luring opposing Landorus but also checking big threats like DD Landorus T and doing more against LO SD Chomp which is also annoying as of late. It's also still very good at opening a window for a lot of things that Landorus normally blanket checks, since it's almost always the primary check for Lopunny, Charizard X, and Excadrill.
In this replay of my friends False. and Snowy for POCL, HP Ice Landorus catches Snowy's Landorus really early on, preventing Snowy from punishing False for clicking UTurn with Rocky Helmet more than once and making EQ CharX a huge threat. There are other replays that show similar scenarios out there from WCOP or others but this is a pretty good example of it. HP Ice Landorus is honestly quite good right now.
In this replay of my friends False. and Snowy for POCL, HP Ice Landorus catches Snowy's Landorus really early on, preventing Snowy from punishing False for clicking UTurn with Rocky Helmet more than once and making EQ CharX a huge threat. There are other replays that show similar scenarios out there from WCOP or others but this is a pretty good example of it. HP Ice Landorus is honestly quite good right now.
HP Ice Lando-T is indeed pretty good to pressure most common opposing ground types, Landorus-Therian and Garchomp, better than any other most at its disposal and these 2 being so omnipresent make it a really viable choice. HP Ice in general is pretty good for the same reason.
HP Fire Lando-T is a pitiful excuse of a set for people that refuse to pack actual scizor checks, especially when a defensive SD Lando-T set with rocky helmet does exactly the same thing without wasting a valuable moveslot. Hate this set with a passion.
HP Fire Lando-T is a pitiful excuse of a set for people that refuse to pack actual scizor checks, especially when a defensive SD Lando-T set with rocky helmet does exactly the same thing without wasting a valuable moveslot. Hate this set with a passion.
Let's talk about Gliscor. It's performance in WC was rather underwhelming and it really has problems. Or maybe just most common set so SD. I think SD is bad in current metagame. Latios runs surf pretty much always so you can't set up on that, amoongus have clear smog, tangrowth gives you hard time and deals ton of damage if you happend to roost. Rotom, Weavile aren't uncommon and they deal pretty nicely with gliscor.
I knew that SD gliscor was popular because it's perfect counter to "skillwave spam" teams, where gliscor sets up on clef and procide to destroy teams but I think that taunt is better right now. It's not even like you beat stall with that SD.
Or maybe some kind of offensive set. With power herb and acrobatics. I'm thinking about it...
No, forget it, it's bullshit.
And yeah, is there any harder counter to lando-t than other lando t with HP ice? Like it proves how overcentr... ekhm, good this mon is.
I knew that SD gliscor was popular because it's perfect counter to "skillwave spam" teams, where gliscor sets up on clef and procide to destroy teams but I think that taunt is better right now. It's not even like you beat stall with that SD.
Or maybe some kind of offensive set. With power herb and acrobatics. I'm thinking about it...
No, forget it, it's bullshit.
And yeah, is there any harder counter to lando-t than other lando t with HP ice? Like it proves how overcentr... ekhm, good this mon is.
Not sure this is the best place for this post, so direct me as needed.
I've been trying out a new Mega-Scizor set and want to know what people think. It's built to be bulky, hit a large portion of the metagame, and have Roost longevity but without swords dance.
Scizor-Mega (F) @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Roost
The addition of Superpower over Swords Dance lessons overall power, but allows Scizor to hit Dark types super hard, acting as a check when teamed with Latios/Latias or other psychic types. Superpower also hits other steal types that may try to set up on Scizor. Without SD, you also don't feel so bad about using U-turn.
I chose a Careful nature just to add more bulk, allowing Scizor to act more like a complete tank.
Let me know what you think, thanks!
I've been trying out a new Mega-Scizor set and want to know what people think. It's built to be bulky, hit a large portion of the metagame, and have Roost longevity but without swords dance.
Scizor-Mega (F) @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Roost
The addition of Superpower over Swords Dance lessons overall power, but allows Scizor to hit Dark types super hard, acting as a check when teamed with Latios/Latias or other psychic types. Superpower also hits other steal types that may try to set up on Scizor. Without SD, you also don't feel so bad about using U-turn.
I chose a Careful nature just to add more bulk, allowing Scizor to act more like a complete tank.
Let me know what you think, thanks!
Mega Zor without Swords Dance just doesn't feel Right. the main Appeal of Mega is to exploit its Bulk to set up on like Mega metagross and Fairies which this set cant do now. If you want to use Superpower Drop U-turn or Better yet just Run CB zor and use another mega.
I have a quick question for the thread.
I am over on Gamefaqs attempting to explain to people that ZardX has no solid counters in OU.
My question is simple-- Am I wrong?
Now in the thread, people are clearly giving checks, and I have unsucessfully tried to prove to these folks that checking something isn't the same as countering, even going so far as to post Smog's definition, but to no avail.
Would appreciate help understanding if I'm missing something.
I am over on Gamefaqs attempting to explain to people that ZardX has no solid counters in OU.
My question is simple-- Am I wrong?
Now in the thread, people are clearly giving checks, and I have unsucessfully tried to prove to these folks that checking something isn't the same as countering, even going so far as to post Smog's definition, but to no avail.
Would appreciate help understanding if I'm missing something.
There is a difference between check and a counter, but Charizard X does have counters. Hippowdon's a good one, Mega Altaria can also eat up hits. Although, many of Charizard X's counters hate Will-O-Wisp, so there's that.
Don't torture yourself, those people are imbeciles. It's an effort in futility to try and have a serious discussion with them.
Hippo was mentioned, but all Hippo is doing is delaying the inevitable with Whirlwind, no? Bulky Attacker ZardX (for example) 252 HP/ 4 Def, Roost, WoW, SD, Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw beats Max Def Hippo one on one. Using Smog's definition, Hippo does not fit the description of a counter, as it does not beat Zard in all situations. Or am I missing something?
And Mega Altaria doesn't like getting hit with +1 Flare Blitz, so I don't really consider that a counter, and is more of a check, considering Altaria is slower, and would need a DD in order to threaten Zard.
I'm very open to why my reasoning is wrong. Please advise, so that I can understand.
Zard-X technically has no counters because there is no Pokemon in the game that can can wall the SD+2 Attacks set, but the conventional DD set does have several really hard checks that can be considered counters. The only real connter to this set persay to Zardx is Quagsire because it can come hard in and avoid the 2HKO, but Zardx can run Outrage to 2HKO Quagsire easily, so it doesn't beat ever set. Obviously there are several very solid checks to the set in Lando-T and Hippowdon that can win 1v1 after Zard-X gets to +1, but +1 Flare Blitz does way too much to them for them to be counters. So basically, while Pokemon hard check certain Zardx sets, there is no "universal counter" to Zardx. Also, none of Zardx's usual checks like being burnt, but that doesnt stop them from being really consistent answers to Zardx in the long run. But the guy who posted Quagsire did post a 100% counter (ignoring hax) to the set that you posted.
E: Most of the people were following the rules of your thread, by posting counters to the set that YOU posted, you can't assume that it is running every set at the same time lol.
E: Most of the people were following the rules of your thread, by posting counters to the set that YOU posted, you can't assume that it is running every set at the same time lol.
I dont want to be that guy but no one cares, we're here to talk about the OU metagame not some beef on some other forums.
Hippo can take on non-Will-o sets and so can Altaria. It was mentioned above that the Pokemon that would be used to manage Charizard-X doesn't appreciate being burned by it.
Hippo can take on non-Will-o sets and so can Altaria. It was mentioned above that the Pokemon that would be used to manage Charizard-X doesn't appreciate being burned by it.
Yo real talk having a debate on gamefaqs with low key dick measuring contest verbiage is like an early-mid 2000's thing. Like 12 pages of debating something as stupid and mind boggling as the terminology we call "checks" and "counters" that's made up to appease the masses of the uneducated, newbies, and suspect test theorymon junkies already speaks for itself, maybe you're deaf though cause it might not be quite obvious.
Step 1. Get the hell out of 10 years ago in having an argument on gamefaq.
Step 2. Nobody cares
Step 3. Take it from me who spent more time than anyone should on Viability Rankings and OU Forum that you should go get fresh air and if old enough get a job.
Step 4. Nobody still cares and references you use are going to be from people who hint.
Step 5. Still don't care.
Step 1. Get the hell out of 10 years ago in having an argument on gamefaq.
Step 2. Nobody cares
Step 3. Take it from me who spent more time than anyone should on Viability Rankings and OU Forum that you should go get fresh air and if old enough get a job.
Step 4. Nobody still cares and references you use are going to be from people who hint.
Step 5. Still don't care.