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Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
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Went ahead and moved Choice Scarf Heatran to A-
I already gave a brief explanation in the nomination post but I'll do a recap.
Heatran's defensive typing is not wasted on the scarf set - it still takes very little damage from the multiple 4x resists and the pair (including one of the best) immunities that it possesses. It has decent power with solid offensive typing and okay coverage. It has the ability to switch in and check many threats early game, dish out some damage and still be a threat in the long run. Because of this combination of attributes, Choice Scarf Heatran is actually a pretty solid glue for many offensive teams and should not be in the B ranks.
I already gave a brief explanation in the nomination post but I'll do a recap.
Heatran's defensive typing is not wasted on the scarf set - it still takes very little damage from the multiple 4x resists and the pair (including one of the best) immunities that it possesses. It has decent power with solid offensive typing and okay coverage. It has the ability to switch in and check many threats early game, dish out some damage and still be a threat in the long run. Because of this combination of attributes, Choice Scarf Heatran is actually a pretty solid glue for many offensive teams and should not be in the B ranks.
p2
Banned deucer.
tg + rd mana without a doubt is S.
who needs coverage when you just power through everything with +6 rain boosted scalds? On a more serious note, this thing has an amazing matchup against sand offense, being able to remove TTar/Hippos sand and completely throw their momentum off, especially if their water answer is slower than Manaphy. You turn mons that rely on Twave to stop Manaphy into liabilities, think Klefki or Clefable here, and overall its just insane against balance / stall builds. it's easily the most effective balance/stall breaking set as you can easily cover most relevant threats with rd + psychic (the only thing that really sticks out is SpD Celebi). It's a set that focuses more on status absorbing and just repeatedly wearing down switchins until they're able to be picked off by a boosted scald or coverage move and it mostly suffers from the same problems that tg+3 attacks does so I don't see why tgrd isn't also s.
edit; it also screws over zard y and shits on the uncommon zard venu sun core which is really cool too :o
who needs coverage when you just power through everything with +6 rain boosted scalds? On a more serious note, this thing has an amazing matchup against sand offense, being able to remove TTar/Hippos sand and completely throw their momentum off, especially if their water answer is slower than Manaphy. You turn mons that rely on Twave to stop Manaphy into liabilities, think Klefki or Clefable here, and overall its just insane against balance / stall builds. it's easily the most effective balance/stall breaking set as you can easily cover most relevant threats with rd + psychic (the only thing that really sticks out is SpD Celebi). It's a set that focuses more on status absorbing and just repeatedly wearing down switchins until they're able to be picked off by a boosted scald or coverage move and it mostly suffers from the same problems that tg+3 attacks does so I don't see why tgrd isn't also s.
edit; it also screws over zard y and shits on the uncommon zard venu sun core which is really cool too :o
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I guess my primary concern with TG + RD is that it's forgoing coverage for more setup. Manaphy's greatest strength without a doubt is the move Tail Glow. Using RD before TG makes sense in a few situations such as status absorption, however the power of just clicking TG right off the bat is generally preferred. RD does allow Manaphy to break past certain defensive things, but against less defensive teams it wishes it had the coverage. Basically what this set does is strengthen's Manaphy's ability to beat stall and some balance builds but hurts its ability against other balance when it's missing coverage for things like Latios or Ferrothorn. It also is a bit worse against offense (sand offense notwithstanding which I think is a good point) which doesn't rely on status and isn't usually trying to wall you anyway. Of course all this only means that I'm saying TG 3 attacks > TG RD but not that TG RD shouldn't be S. I think the reason it shouldn't be S is that the other set is what got it to this rank and I think the gap between their general effectiveness is a full subrank which frankly is quite hard to quantify.
Rain dance lets you stand a chance against unaware clef, which is huge in this meta, and, as you said, let's it absorb status, which is awesome for offensive teams that have no means of getting rid of status. It's especially useful for stopping stray wisps from crippling a physical attacker. Overall, it just works really well against stall, which manaphy really loves to break. It is also able to cancel out weather changing abilities, which is neat. I think it warrants an S-rank, tbh.
I think Belly Drum Chesnaught should be D rank. It's outclassed both as a belly drummer (Azumarill) and a grass/fighting attacker (by Breloom). Azumarill's STABs are resisted by these pokes (and some other irrelevant ones): Ferrothorn, Venusaur, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Roserade, Amoonguss. Meanwhile, Chesnaught's STABs are resisted by TONS of stuff (there's a long list - just trust me). All in all, it's a poor belly drummer and a poor grass type attacker. Its belly drum set is much inferior to its defensive/spikes set. I think it should drop.
bludz asked my opinion on some of these on PS but I'll just confirm here.
Alright so like, TG + RD Manaphy is really good against fatter builds but it's overhyped for the notion of S. Most times the teams are built to only need the two coverage moves but it doesn't change the fact you're still destroying a lot of fatter builds anyways with Tail Glow + 3 attacks and makes conventional switch ins like Ferrothorn a potential liability to begin with. Yeah it most certainly screws over things like TWave Clefable, Klefki, and others and while you can sort of autowin against these sort of things, that's more of a sign that teams need to start preserving their counterplay or getting one, easier said than done but still valid in some instances, for the variety of Manaphy. Blowing through with rain boosted scalds is also an overstatement when it mandates two turns to do so, and the third where you can actually get the ball legitimately rolling. Best set is based on team needs but that extra coverage I think makes it more splashable overall. Manaphy itself is what defines its S rank placement and the TG / 3 attack set has certified this, not the other sets.
AV Azumarill isn't a bad set, but being "underrated" is kind of ironic considering builds would otherwise show people using other sets that provide more benefits in the long run, like band and even new variants like Lum Berry. I don't know there isn't a whole lot to say here cause most builds you see won't actually be using or seeing this, thus questioning a viability perspective. It's more suitable to A- anyways.
There's only one phrase to justify Kingdra and it's go hard or go home. Life Orb isn't going hard. I think the point is there with just that.
Bulky rona is cute and should be ranked but I don't really have an opinion on its placement cause it's so rare and in most circumstances it's terrible. It's terrible cause it's always something like STAB , roost, QDance when Wisp / Bug Buzz is arguably better. However it has about 0 usage and shouldn't be that high cause a lot of its viability, including volcarona itself to an extent, manifests itself from player ability more so than the mon itself. B is kind of gracious though but would be better to rank it, then come back later if anybody ends up caring in the long run or it sees an increase in usage.
I'm not particularly a huge fan of Band Scizor in this meta. It has some practical uses but SD Life Orb or Lum can pose more of a threat in a lot of situations that doesn't rely on being prediction reliant, one of regular Scizors downfalls with the band set when U-Turn can potentially be a liability.
Can we.....not hype such a shit set on Reuniclus so much lol? OTR is one of those gimmicks you use to counter team a friend or test out for shits and giggles. Then when you got play a game where the win somewhat actually matters it's going to get exploited by your average balance team. I mean it's to the point I could probably justify Thunder Wave / CM having more legitimate use than this, along with 4 attacks Regenerator Specs, and those see 0 usage on a Pokemon that's sort of takes a lot of effort to use already. Reuniclus in TR as far as ORAS goes my experience using it doesn't want to be the TR setter. 3 attacks Life Orb / recover or 4 attacks paired up with TR setters. C+ is being nice honestly. TR is ok in a sense but the partners that go along with are pretty specific and Reuniclus is most times an after thought on most TR builds these days.
Alright so like, TG + RD Manaphy is really good against fatter builds but it's overhyped for the notion of S. Most times the teams are built to only need the two coverage moves but it doesn't change the fact you're still destroying a lot of fatter builds anyways with Tail Glow + 3 attacks and makes conventional switch ins like Ferrothorn a potential liability to begin with. Yeah it most certainly screws over things like TWave Clefable, Klefki, and others and while you can sort of autowin against these sort of things, that's more of a sign that teams need to start preserving their counterplay or getting one, easier said than done but still valid in some instances, for the variety of Manaphy. Blowing through with rain boosted scalds is also an overstatement when it mandates two turns to do so, and the third where you can actually get the ball legitimately rolling. Best set is based on team needs but that extra coverage I think makes it more splashable overall. Manaphy itself is what defines its S rank placement and the TG / 3 attack set has certified this, not the other sets.
AV Azumarill isn't a bad set, but being "underrated" is kind of ironic considering builds would otherwise show people using other sets that provide more benefits in the long run, like band and even new variants like Lum Berry. I don't know there isn't a whole lot to say here cause most builds you see won't actually be using or seeing this, thus questioning a viability perspective. It's more suitable to A- anyways.
There's only one phrase to justify Kingdra and it's go hard or go home. Life Orb isn't going hard. I think the point is there with just that.
Bulky rona is cute and should be ranked but I don't really have an opinion on its placement cause it's so rare and in most circumstances it's terrible. It's terrible cause it's always something like STAB , roost, QDance when Wisp / Bug Buzz is arguably better. However it has about 0 usage and shouldn't be that high cause a lot of its viability, including volcarona itself to an extent, manifests itself from player ability more so than the mon itself. B is kind of gracious though but would be better to rank it, then come back later if anybody ends up caring in the long run or it sees an increase in usage.
I'm not particularly a huge fan of Band Scizor in this meta. It has some practical uses but SD Life Orb or Lum can pose more of a threat in a lot of situations that doesn't rely on being prediction reliant, one of regular Scizors downfalls with the band set when U-Turn can potentially be a liability.
Can we.....not hype such a shit set on Reuniclus so much lol? OTR is one of those gimmicks you use to counter team a friend or test out for shits and giggles. Then when you got play a game where the win somewhat actually matters it's going to get exploited by your average balance team. I mean it's to the point I could probably justify Thunder Wave / CM having more legitimate use than this, along with 4 attacks Regenerator Specs, and those see 0 usage on a Pokemon that's sort of takes a lot of effort to use already. Reuniclus in TR as far as ORAS goes my experience using it doesn't want to be the TR setter. 3 attacks Life Orb / recover or 4 attacks paired up with TR setters. C+ is being nice honestly. TR is ok in a sense but the partners that go along with are pretty specific and Reuniclus is most times an after thought on most TR builds these days.
I'm quite dangerous making a double post...
Uh outside of discussion points next time you guys update stuff I can elaborate on what I think warrants discussion or a change based on these.
M-Altaria: Removing CG from it, it's part of DDD.
Slowbro: The AV set is kind of pointless when Slowking is relevant and still solid
Raikou: I'm not a big fan of Specs, maybe that comes from my own team-building but I've never had to worry about being threatened by this set. I use Zap Plate on a lot of my Raikou variants for more offensive teams or the other variants like CM and AV, although I don't like these sets either.
Dragonite: I think DDance Nite is better, just my two cents.
Mamo: I wouldn't even entertain Sash on a serious build when M-Sableye is gaining more prominence than ever and Life Orb is what makes it an immediate threat in the first place.
Suicune: You should probably start considering adding "Defensive" to consolidate sets I've been using like Scald, Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk. I could provide replays if necessary of different stuff I've used on Suicune with success if you guys need to gauge an idea. Most of you who have played me I think can confirm.
Togekiss: Scarf I believe is a gimmick set.
M-Beedrill: Revenge Killer. The term pivot and Beedrill in the same sentence makes your unborn child cry.
Chesnaught: Agreeing with the sentiment above that BD is just lame now.
Uh outside of discussion points next time you guys update stuff I can elaborate on what I think warrants discussion or a change based on these.
M-Altaria: Removing CG from it, it's part of DDD.
Slowbro: The AV set is kind of pointless when Slowking is relevant and still solid
Raikou: I'm not a big fan of Specs, maybe that comes from my own team-building but I've never had to worry about being threatened by this set. I use Zap Plate on a lot of my Raikou variants for more offensive teams or the other variants like CM and AV, although I don't like these sets either.
Dragonite: I think DDance Nite is better, just my two cents.
Mamo: I wouldn't even entertain Sash on a serious build when M-Sableye is gaining more prominence than ever and Life Orb is what makes it an immediate threat in the first place.
Suicune: You should probably start considering adding "Defensive" to consolidate sets I've been using like Scald, Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk. I could provide replays if necessary of different stuff I've used on Suicune with success if you guys need to gauge an idea. Most of you who have played me I think can confirm.
Togekiss: Scarf I believe is a gimmick set.
M-Beedrill: Revenge Killer. The term pivot and Beedrill in the same sentence makes your unborn child cry.
Chesnaught: Agreeing with the sentiment above that BD is just lame now.
Kind of unrelated to the sets and changes, but would someone please put the name of the pokemon on top of the sets? First of all, beginners have no idea which pokemon is which, and secondly, more importantly, I can't just cmd+f then type in the pokemon. Just input the names and it would be much more organized
Those really aren't accurate comparisons tho- breloom is more of a AoA set or potentially swords dance attacker that is meant to punch holes in the opponents team and stuff- chesnaught is supposed to sweep through teams, given the chance. Azu is completely different typing and reliant upon priority, and it isn't like BD sweeper is a role you look to fill for most teams- the shared role they fill is just sweeper and belly drum is the means they do so by. Saying it outclasses it as a belly drum sweeper is overly specific, but simplified at the same time. I am not phrasing this the best way possible, but basically, the two are different enough that you may as well say "scizor outclasses weavile as a swords dance sweeper." And it honestly isn't D rank. I started trying to ladder with a team built around it just a few weeks before ladder reset and made it to 1450 on a pretty much fresh alt (it may have been like, 1100). I am no master by any means, and that was playing super casually, since I knew the reset was coming up. D rank is WAY underselling it. I would honestly put it in the neighborhood of B, but I think most people disagree. Partially why it is so good is its offensive and defensive synergy with a lot of stuff, and the surprise factor when playing it. It's very easy to bluff a balance team when playing ches, so the opponent tends to play as such, only to find that the offensive pressure easily overwhelms them. I think it honestly justifies AT LEAST a C. This is based on extensive playing with it in the past, as well as somewhat more limited testing before the reset, and a decent amount since. It's not without its own flaws, but it is by no means D rank-worthy.
Okay I feel the need to chime in on Chesnaught here. I'm gonna go straight to the point but...
Personally, I think it's weak after its set up (its STABs are also horrible together, with three different individual typings resisting both and without them covering one another's resists aside from steel), finds a very hard time setting up, relies overwhelmingly on the surprise factor that it's not a defensive set, and slow after it sets up. I think D is the perfect place for it. I recognize that it might fit on a team or two but in reality its niche is very limited, as well as its strength.
Personally, I think it's weak after its set up (its STABs are also horrible together, with three different individual typings resisting both and without them covering one another's resists aside from steel), finds a very hard time setting up, relies overwhelmingly on the surprise factor that it's not a defensive set, and slow after it sets up. I think D is the perfect place for it. I recognize that it might fit on a team or two but in reality its niche is very limited, as well as its strength.
Even without those comparisons, Chesnaught still has to deal with the fact that its STABs are resisted by the majority of the metagame, which is a huge deal, considering BDChesnaught doesn't run any coverage.
These arguments are actually much more valid, however they are actually both based on an incorrect assumption that is actually pretty commonplace. This is that belly drum chesnaught runs the traditional overgrow set with drain punch and seed bomb. The ideology is that this lets you ohko mega Latias at +6 with seed bomb, however, first of all, mega Latias really isn't honestly that common, and it can actually be easily ko'd with rock slide, which somehow seems to go overlooked. That lets you run bulletproof, which lets you set up on stuff like mega Venusaur w/o HP fire. It also has very good coverage with rock slide and honestly doesn't miss the power of overgrow seed bomb, since, as mentioned, grass doesn't pair well with fighting anyway, and at +6 the stab and overgrow boosts are largely unnecessary. Overgrow is still a valid option, but it just depends on the team. It is somewhat slow. That I can't argue against. However, it is fast enough to clean well against offensive teams when their faster stuff is gone, and it can easily destroy balance teams after the salac boost.
It doesn't honestly have that much difficulty against fatter builds, though offense can pressure it enough to make it difficult occasionally. However, it doesn't need to set up to do serious damage against offense, as it can just click rock slide to smash it's checks like Tflame and then set up the next opportunity it gets (which bulletproof+its unique typing provide quite often).
Last of all, it doesn't RELY on surprise factor, rather, it draws from it to increase its overall effectiveness. Surprise factor is, in my opinion, the thing that separates great teams from good ones. Especially for offense. Predictability in teambuilding creates teams that are standard, and easy to prepare for and don't continue to stay effective through the shifts in the meta. Obviously well-built offensive teams can provide enough pressure stay viable even if they are pretty standard in build. But unpredictability, so long as it is still a viable set, can easily cause your opponent to misplay and win you the game.
I've seen some mention of a wallbreaking Adamant LO+SD set for Garchomp. Does it merit ranking?
Meh... I mean, it's chomp, it's obviously at least decent, but it seems like kind of a waste of such a good mon to me. Chomp just has so many superior options, I'm not convinced it does deserve one, tbh.
That's included in SD
Which one? Because listed are the Offensive SR set (with Lum and SD), and the Sub/SD Set, which to my knowledge packs a Salac berry. Again, don't know if it's worth it, but I don't think it's covered in the existing sets.
Offensive SR
AM the CG DD on Altaria was spearheaded by me. Basically I hate that set and I think it's overrated as hell so I didn't want it to be "included" under an S rank set, but still thought it was worth mentioning so we don't get posts asking why it isn't there.
Just wanted to put that out there. If anyone disagrees with me that's fine just disagree with me while understanding my standpoint.
Will be updating later today based on VR moves, will try to get some discussion with the team going regarding our next slate and finalize thoughts on current potential changes.
Just wanted to put that out there. If anyone disagrees with me that's fine just disagree with me while understanding my standpoint.
Will be updating later today based on VR moves, will try to get some discussion with the team going regarding our next slate and finalize thoughts on current potential changes.
Okay! I have now updated the rankings to resemble the Viability Rankings thread.
The other updates are as follows:
Volcarona: Bulky QD Unranked -> B-
Reuniclus: Offensive Trick Room B- -> C+
Chesnaught: Belly Drum C- -> D
We're going to still be talking about some of the other stuff since we aren't all on at the same time a lot so things like Azumarill's AV set and Scizor's sets will be talked about but aren't in this update.
New discussion points:
Landorus-T: Double Dance A -> A+
Raikou: Choice Specs A- -> B+
Alakazam: Focus Sash B+ -> B
Dragonite: Dragon Dance B -> B+ (overtake Choice Band?)
Suicune: Defensive Unranked -> B/B+
The other updates are as follows:
Volcarona: Bulky QD Unranked -> B-
Reuniclus: Offensive Trick Room B- -> C+
Chesnaught: Belly Drum C- -> D
We're going to still be talking about some of the other stuff since we aren't all on at the same time a lot so things like Azumarill's AV set and Scizor's sets will be talked about but aren't in this update.
New discussion points:
Landorus-T: Double Dance A -> A+
Raikou: Choice Specs A- -> B+
Alakazam: Focus Sash B+ -> B
Dragonite: Dragon Dance B -> B+ (overtake Choice Band?)
Suicune: Defensive Unranked -> B/B+
power
uh-oh, the game in trouble
Specs Raikou and Sash Alakazam need to drop. Specs Raikou doesn't have amazing bulk (comparable to terrak/keldeo tbh who aren't exactly used for their defensive abilities), a relatively useless ability, only one stab which has tons of immunities, and coverage that's either weak (hp ice) or doesn't hit much super effectively (shadow ball) and still only has 80 BP. Unfortunately discussion about ass vest raikou is not on the slate or we could talk about why that needs to drop too
on the other hand sash alakazam while being a one time switch in to lots of things and a fast revenge killer, simply doesn't have that much power. While magic guard is a fantastic ability, one of the amazing perks for zam (no lo recoil) is not even there when you have a sash. You can't even run sub, because then you break the sash. Additionally, the metagame has lots of fast mons too like mlop (who demolishes it with fake out +return). but most importantly, there's tons of priority in ou and most users have actual bulk to back it up, and two stabs and an actually decent typing, none of which zam has, meaning that a priority user is often a better fit for many teams (like azu/tflame)
on the other hand sash alakazam while being a one time switch in to lots of things and a fast revenge killer, simply doesn't have that much power. While magic guard is a fantastic ability, one of the amazing perks for zam (no lo recoil) is not even there when you have a sash. You can't even run sub, because then you break the sash. Additionally, the metagame has lots of fast mons too like mlop (who demolishes it with fake out +return). but most importantly, there's tons of priority in ou and most users have actual bulk to back it up, and two stabs and an actually decent typing, none of which zam has, meaning that a priority user is often a better fit for many teams (like azu/tflame)
I talked about the other stuff so safe to assume I don't need to state it again.
Ok I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say Double Dance Lando-T shouldn't be A+ cause the SD sets with either SR or 3 attacks is what I believe is much better. Necessitating two turns to set up is allocated to the late game scenario and is somewhat unrealistic that you're going to put in much work until later in the game. It's not a set that fits every team because most teams want to fulfill the SR role with a ground type synergy wise while opening up movepool options for things like Ferrothorn and Clefable (other rockers as examples). It's neat set for a fast paced Hyper Offensive team behind screens perhaps, but the work required to pull off both sets is a lot. Also yes, I know you can pick and choose the set up move you want based on scenario and I can assure you EdgeQuake as your only means of versatility is going to inevitably bite you in the ass.
The problem with Specs Raikou is that its effectiveness is based on a momentum grabbing move in Volt Switch + coverage options. You could say that any Choice user meets this criteria if we're going to generalize things but something such as Lando-Ts only opportunity cost in clicking U-Turn for example is being on the other end of an incoming tankchomp. You could say that's a play in favor of Garchomp but in reality unless Lando-T has been put in to priority range, it's Lando-Ts move. See where I'm going with this? Raikou has to play a much more tougher climb in the momentum ladder as it either 1. heavily damages an opposing mon 2. clicks Volt Switch in the hopes of grabbing momentum and stopped cold by a ground, which is basically a necessity for any team with the amount of pressure stuff like M-Manectric and Thundurus can apply. Raikou will be good on teams when it has a freedom of choice what to use at that moment. Using Choice Specs is a gamble and lacks the consistency of a Zap Plate or Assault Vest Raikou. It's placement in the regular rankings isn't based on Specs merits, I can guarantee you that much.
Life Orb is just clearly better for Alakazam and Thunder Wave Sash Kazam most times is to remedy a subpar teambuilding choice so you're not swept by opposing DDancers. Life Orbs merit alone makes this set an after thought.
Dragon Dance Dragonite, is muuuuch more scarier than Band. It's fat, it can switch in to Zard-Y while not being pursuit food (hint hint Latis), coverage options to screw over a would be counterplay. Band isn't bad, but Band holds a stigma similar to Raikou in that it needs to have freedom of choice to be truly effective. The fact you make up power in band with one Dragon Dance, which is normally pretty easy to manage as it forces a lot of emergency switch ins, I think warrants Dragon Dance as a better option.
Suicunes utility in providing a defensive water who has the options of phasing out other set up sweepers while being its own set up sweeper puts Suicunes sets equally on par.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-264744325
This match is quite long against a stall team and granted I didn't win but the point being after the entirety of that match Suicune was still standing off the Scald, Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk set that I used with this team. Maintaining that consistency not being the CM set says something.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-262042424
Same deal, I won this match but it doesn't change the fact the set I was using doesn't show an inferior set to Suicune as opposed to say, Special M-Altaria vs Dragon Dance M-Altaria on which we know the one that is more dangerous.
Ok I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say Double Dance Lando-T shouldn't be A+ cause the SD sets with either SR or 3 attacks is what I believe is much better. Necessitating two turns to set up is allocated to the late game scenario and is somewhat unrealistic that you're going to put in much work until later in the game. It's not a set that fits every team because most teams want to fulfill the SR role with a ground type synergy wise while opening up movepool options for things like Ferrothorn and Clefable (other rockers as examples). It's neat set for a fast paced Hyper Offensive team behind screens perhaps, but the work required to pull off both sets is a lot. Also yes, I know you can pick and choose the set up move you want based on scenario and I can assure you EdgeQuake as your only means of versatility is going to inevitably bite you in the ass.
The problem with Specs Raikou is that its effectiveness is based on a momentum grabbing move in Volt Switch + coverage options. You could say that any Choice user meets this criteria if we're going to generalize things but something such as Lando-Ts only opportunity cost in clicking U-Turn for example is being on the other end of an incoming tankchomp. You could say that's a play in favor of Garchomp but in reality unless Lando-T has been put in to priority range, it's Lando-Ts move. See where I'm going with this? Raikou has to play a much more tougher climb in the momentum ladder as it either 1. heavily damages an opposing mon 2. clicks Volt Switch in the hopes of grabbing momentum and stopped cold by a ground, which is basically a necessity for any team with the amount of pressure stuff like M-Manectric and Thundurus can apply. Raikou will be good on teams when it has a freedom of choice what to use at that moment. Using Choice Specs is a gamble and lacks the consistency of a Zap Plate or Assault Vest Raikou. It's placement in the regular rankings isn't based on Specs merits, I can guarantee you that much.
Life Orb is just clearly better for Alakazam and Thunder Wave Sash Kazam most times is to remedy a subpar teambuilding choice so you're not swept by opposing DDancers. Life Orbs merit alone makes this set an after thought.
Dragon Dance Dragonite, is muuuuch more scarier than Band. It's fat, it can switch in to Zard-Y while not being pursuit food (hint hint Latis), coverage options to screw over a would be counterplay. Band isn't bad, but Band holds a stigma similar to Raikou in that it needs to have freedom of choice to be truly effective. The fact you make up power in band with one Dragon Dance, which is normally pretty easy to manage as it forces a lot of emergency switch ins, I think warrants Dragon Dance as a better option.
Suicunes utility in providing a defensive water who has the options of phasing out other set up sweepers while being its own set up sweeper puts Suicunes sets equally on par.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-264744325
This match is quite long against a stall team and granted I didn't win but the point being after the entirety of that match Suicune was still standing off the Scald, Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk set that I used with this team. Maintaining that consistency not being the CM set says something.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-262042424
Same deal, I won this match but it doesn't change the fact the set I was using doesn't show an inferior set to Suicune as opposed to say, Special M-Altaria vs Dragon Dance M-Altaria on which we know the one that is more dangerous.
I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time on this, but as for raikou, voltturn cores are meant to maintain momentum, but being choice locked into an electric type attack is not exactly optimal for maintaining momentum. Ground types are so common, it often becomes a deadweight for much of the match. It works well at maintaining momentum once ground types are gone, but that requires quite a bit of support, as opposed to being a support to the team in itself. It also isn't as good at checking torn T as AV, which is super useful rn. Just a few thoughts.
One important part of sash zam is that it gets off a pretty much guaranteed twave after it gets hit, stopping many setup sweepers and in general being a very Mexican Pokemon especially when paired with jirachi/togekiss in addition to its current power that it is knows with.
If it's on the basis of T-waving things, Klefki and Thundy are much more reliable, especially considering they have priority thunder wave. I think sash Zam should definitely move down to B. It's really weak without the life orb, and extremely frail, even with the sash. This is in large part due to the fact that 1. offense has an absurd speed tier, and Alakazam is outsped by a lot, and 2. it's extremely weak to priority. Like AM said, it's kinda a crutch for bad teambuilding (which I know all about - my teambuilding is garbage lol). Regardless, it is vastly inferior to both Mega Alakazam and LO Alakazam, and so should be moved down.
Specs Raikou should definitely be moved down. As previously stated, being locked into an electric move is not good for the sake of preserving momentum. On the same token, it does not want to be locked into any particular move. No matter what move you lock yourself into, your opponent should have easy/guaranteed switch-ins, which is why it needs to be able to use its coverage.
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