Well there is Focus Sash Alakazam who is also a good Psychic type revenge killer.
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Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Well there is Focus Sash Alakazam who is also a good Psychic type revenge killer.
I shamelessly copied a stall RMT using Chesnaught/Quagsire/Garchomp/Sylveon/Skarmory/Gyarados, and I've modified it quite a bit and am about to post my own RMT. But I can't seem to find the original thread to give credit. Does it sound familiar to anyone? I feel like it was one of the RMTs that had tons and tons of explanation at the beginning but I'm not sure.
Ajwf's Terrible Triremes has a lot of explanation at the beginning and is very close to what you mentioned, with 5 of the 6 pokes the same. Are you sure it didn't have P2 over Gyarados?
Say you use Freeze dry on quagsire.
its 4x effective since its se on water, and se on ground.
According to bulbapedia, "Freeze-Dry deals damage and has a 10% chance to freeze the foe. This move is always super effective against Water-type Pokémon, even during Inverse Battles or if it has Wonder Guard."
And its got a 10% chance to freeze, so as for sheer force, it still works as se on water types, just no freeze chance.
Why are Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and Bright Powder not banned? They are incredibly uncompetitive, and are harder to prepare for than Swagger, (not that you should be preparing for things like that).
Here is the 1 replay that I need to show why this should be quick banned. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-136267451
Ignore the fact that it's a Tier Shift match and not OU, the mechanics still work the exact same, meaning it's just as uncompetitive there as it is anywhere else with Sand Stream. I got 6-0'd by a Bright Powder Sand Veil Cacturne, because I missed two attacks that would have KO'd. It set up on the turn it should have died. There is absolutely no reason I can think of to allow this in OU, or any of the lower tiers.
Here is the 1 replay that I need to show why this should be quick banned. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-136267451
Ignore the fact that it's a Tier Shift match and not OU, the mechanics still work the exact same, meaning it's just as uncompetitive there as it is anywhere else with Sand Stream. I got 6-0'd by a Bright Powder Sand Veil Cacturne, because I missed two attacks that would have KO'd. It set up on the turn it should have died. There is absolutely no reason I can think of to allow this in OU, or any of the lower tiers.
It's annoying, and I agree it's uncompetitive, but it really isn't that different from the Quick Claw, or moves with imperfect accuracy. There's no permanent weather, so Sand Veil is only affecting Pokemon a maximum of seven turns, and even then, each turn it only reduced the accuracy of moves with perfect accuracy to 80%. It just turns Ice Beam into Stone Edge, which isn't an uncompetitive move. Also, a simple fix is just using Whirlwind or Roar. They aren't staples on every team, but they phaze out Pokemon relying on hax to win. Lastly, Bright Powder makes all 100% accurate moves 90% accurate. Yes, it's a haxy item. But is it really ban worthy when it's only effective 10% of the time? Swagger is effective 50% of the time; there's a large difference. There's no reason to use it, but it's honestly as broken as the other useless items, like the Focus Band or the Absorb Bulb. Would anyone cry if it gets banned? No. But I don't feel like it's necessary, and we really shouldn't waste our time banning unnecessary things, when we should be banning the actually broken and over-centralizing things. Just my take on it.
A few reasons:
- As weather is no longer permanent, neither is the evasion boost. It's not like minimize where you can click it and then you decide how long you keep the boost. You can even change the weather yourself if you're so inclined. So in a sense it is possible to "prepare" for it by bringing something like YZard which is definitely competitively viable, unlike for example bringing own tempo mons to combat Swagger. Brightpowder, while not weather-dependent, is less effective than evasion abilities (multiplying accuracy by 0.9 instead of 0.8).
- Evasion abilities force a pokemon to give up a potentially better/more generally useful ability. For example, Garchomp gives up Rough Skin to punish physical attackers (as well as sand force if you want to go Mega), and Mamoswine gives up Thick Fat meaning he loses his neutrality to fire moves. Similarly, bright powder means a pokemon can't hold a different item, like Life Orb or Leftovers.
- Evasion abilities require weather support, meaning unless it uses up a moveslot with a weather move (making the mon less effective overall), the weather starter will have an auto-weather ability, so they can't also take advantage of it with an evasion ability. Swagplay on the other hand took advantage of Prankster, an incredibly useful ability which also supported the overall strategy (allowing for priority thunder waves and substitutes).
- Accuracy boosts are now ignored by roar/whirlwind, so if you're really desperate you can always switch in something like Skarmory to phaze the pokemon out.
This is like saying fast Prankster Taunt or Magic Bounce shut down Swagger. While that's true, not every team can carry those things, nor should carry them for that matter.
BTW, a mistake I made in the replay was trying to kill that Cacturne with Granbull's Play Rough rather than phaze it with Roar, which I had. Since I missed, we can see that was the wrong play, but in the moment it made more sense to try and kill the thing that was killing me rather than delay it from killing me.
The fact that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have time limits is a bad point, since it can take only 1 miss at a crucial moment in order to set up successfully, as you can see in the replay. My chances of wining didn't go up when his Sandstorm wore off, because he had already set up.
The percentage isn't the point, but if you wan't to talk about percentages, let me tell you why Sand Veil/Snow Cloak+Bright Powder are worse than Quick Claw/Focus Band/etc. The evasion boost stacks. So you turn a 100 acc move into a 72 acc move. That's worse than Mega Kick! When the hell was the last time you ever saw someone using Mega Kick? You probably haven't, because it's an awful move that no one in their right mind would use competitively because of it's awful accuracy. And it's even worse for things like Play Rough (64.8), Stone Edge (57.6), or Focus Miss (50.4)
I would argue that these actually have an advantage that than Double Team/Minimize don't get. Evasion boosting moves have to be set up, where as Sand Veil and Snow Cloak take advantage of the free turns provided by weather starters, and are active the instant they switch in.
SwagKey gave up Prankster Dual Screens and Spikes in order to run Swager, Foul Play, Thunder Wave, and Substitute. The fact that they have something more relable/less haxy they could run instead doesn't actually matter if they aren't dependent on those things in the first place.
Just because odds of missing go down when using Zard-Y/Politoed/etc, doesn't mean that they are good against Sand Veil. Zard-Y can do nothing except remove Sandstorm against Garchomp, because Garchomp outspeeds and OHKOs with Stone Edge. Defensive Politoed can be OKHO'd by +2 Outrage, and it can't OHKO with Ice Beam, even after SR.
I don't understand what your point is here. None of the Sand/Hail summoners have Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, so they couldn't make use of those abilities anyway.
Swagger and Sand Veil aren't really comparable in this way, since Swagger is an uncompetitive move, and these are uncompetitive abilities and items.
Evasion abilities/items are not as haxy as Swagger, this is true, I can't argue with you there. But saying that evasion isn't as bad as Swager is like saying Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D aren't as broken as Arceus. While that's true, your comparing it to something that's banned, for good reason. Just because it's not as uncompetitive as something that we agree is uncompetitive, doesn't mean that it isn't uncompetitive enough to justify a ban.
Notice that people never use Thunder, unless paired with Rain, where it doesn't have rubbish accuracy.
A quick ban, like I suggested, takes essentially no time, and lets us focus on the things that are more important.
People only use Focus Blast because they need the special Fighting coverage, and they don't have any better option. Focus Blast would be next to non-existent in competitive play if everything that could learn it could learn Aura Sphere as well.
TL;DR: Missing is a risk that people must accept when they use any sub 100 accuracy move. It isn't a risk that they should have to accept when using 100 accuracy moves, don't try to convince me otherwise.
Mud Slap isn't broken or uncompetitive. Neither is Sand Attack. Neither is switching Malamar, Shuckle, or Spinda into Defog. All of those occurrences also make 100% accurate moves not 100% accurate, but they aren't ban worthy.
Those are different. Accuracy lowering A) Takes up a move slot, B) Is fixed by switching, meaning it doesn't effect a revenge killer C) Takes turns to set up, and D) You can outspeed the first Mud Slap/Sand Attack, and get a guarantied hit on them before they even get a chance to effect your accuracy. While I would say it is mildly uncompetitive, it's also so terrible that it's not even worth bothering with.
A Contrary Pokemon's evasion stat is out of their control, that's something you do to them if they predict correctly. If you missed an attack because you Defogged a Malamar, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.
Uhm, your username includes the word "debater," but you come to a forum, shout about evasion abilities, and then tell people not to try to convince you that you're wrong? I guess you just came here to rant or something. Isn't that what blogs are for?
But, just to respond to a couple of your main points for the sake of actual discussion:
-Phazers are a staple on a LOT of teams, and are used for a variety of circumstances, including neutering set up sweepers and substitutes, shuffling pokemon, scouting a player's preferred switch-in, etc. Skarmory and Heatran are both extremely viable, and their most popular sets run Phazing moves.
-Lots of things can be game changing. Things can crit too. And you're not mentioning paralysis, which takes you down to about the same chance of hitting your opponent (75% vs. 72%), except that unlike sand veil, if the RNG spites you, you can't even use set up or recovery moves.
-Evasion abilities do require set up, because you need either another pokemon with an auto-weather ability or a moveslot for a weather move.
-The percentage is the point. All luck-based factors in pokemon are technically uncompetitive because they put the outcome of a turn into the hands of the RNG, rather than the players; it's the degree to which it is uncompetitive/luck based that's the entire issue. That was actually a huge anti-ban strawman argument being thrown around in the Swagplay debates, that if we ban swagplay we have to also ban all luck in pokemon because it's all essentially the same. Except it wasn't, because Swagplay swung the odds too far, again with literally no setup before being able to execute the strategy. Overpowered/brokenness exists on a continuum.
LOL, you have a point. I was too worked up over that loss. I got so mad about it that the frustration caused me to lose my next match as well.
But should people have to accept a risk of missing with 100% accurate moves? I think not.
But HO usually doesn't have room for Phazing, (except maybe Parish Song on Damp Rock Politoed, which also forces evasion abusers to switch. Eventually.). Don't get me wrong, Phazing is a way better counter argument against a Sand Veil ban than Haze/Punishment/etc was agianst BP chains, because they are good moves with good distribution, and good use outside of stopping this one gimmick, (Unless that form of Phazing makes contact and has 90 accuracy, that tends to be less effective). Is this a bad point? Maybe this is a bad point. IDK.
BTW Heatran gets murdered by Garchomp even worse than Zard-Y. You already knew that, and weren't actually suggesting that Heatran be used as a SV Chomp counter, but I just felt the need to point that out to you anyway.
Because that would be dumb. Para would have legitimate competitive use without the 1/4 chance to immobilize, because of the speed drop. Evasion does not. Critical hits can't be banned without changing the games mechanics, and even have a valid use, since they ignore defense boosts. Evasion can be, has been, and currently is banned in different forms, without any changes to game mechanics. I'm just saying evasion adds nothing but a notable amount of hax, and that there is absolutely no reason to have it here.
I said the the evasion user takes advantage of free turns given to them by a weather summoner, not that it takes no set up. It takes 1 turn of set up for (up to) 7 turns of evasion.
You know what, you're completely right about this. I don't even know what I was thinking when I said that the percentage didn't matter. That was dumb.
You know Moody? From what I understand, (I wasn't around before the Moody ban, but from what I've read, this is accurate), it has a 2/7 chance of boosting either Speed or Evasion sharply on the first turn. These are the most important stats for something as frail as Smeargle or Bidoof to be able to Sub-Protect stall while fishing for a miss, (Evasion for obvious reasons, and Speed to protect it from things that can outspeed it). If it didn't get those boosts, the Moody user would often have to switch out against something that could outspeed. How much is a 2/7 chance? Just over 28%. I feel like an idiot for not thinking of that earlier!
Obviously Sand Veil+Bright Powder isn't anywhere near as broken as Moody, which had both players rolling a lot more dice, but that first 28% roll was vital to the success or failure of the Moody abuser. Just like 1-7 turns worth of 28% or better rolls would be for the evasion abuser.
You're right, not all hax is created equal. That's why I'm not talking about banning all hax. Removing all hax from the game would make it far less interesting and complex. However, in my opinion, this adds too large of an RNG influence, while giving back nothing beneficial.
Or they could get either the Defense or Special Defense boost which lets them survive easier, taking the hit. You protect first turn, and get 3 of 7 favorable results: Evasion, Speed, or the Defense that helps against whatever your opponent has. Factor in that if you lead with a Moody pokemon, a lead like ferrothorn won't attack it immediately, instead setting up rocks or leech seed.
Im using a M-Venusaur for a Team. But i dont know. Calm or Bold? Which treats are more common?
Plus, a little of help with the moveset. I dont know if i should keep Sludge Bomb. Im planning on putting Giga Drain/Leech Seed and HP Fire (Damn Ferrothorn) on it. Planning on Sleep Powder or such.
Im pretty noobish so dont be mad :x
Thanks!
Plus, a little of help with the moveset. I dont know if i should keep Sludge Bomb. Im planning on putting Giga Drain/Leech Seed and HP Fire (Damn Ferrothorn) on it. Planning on Sleep Powder or such.
Im pretty noobish so dont be mad :x
Thanks!
While this is true in theory, a +2 Smeargle is still OHKO'd by a lot of things. And even the ones that don't OHKO can at least lower its HP to the point that it couldn't make a sub that turn. About half the OU Pokemon sets on the Honokalculator All vs One could deal more than 75% damage to a +2 Smeargle, and a lot more could deal up to 62.5%, if it switched into SR after a suicide lead fainted. Really it's most important stat was Evasion, and that had a 1/7 chance of activating every turn. And honestly, if you saw your opponent lead with a Moody Smeargle, would your top priority be getting up SR, or trying to stop that Moody user from setting up and killing you?
Usually, offensive Venusaur is better than defensive. If you're using offensive, Modest is the best nature. If you're using defensive, you should use a Calm nature with the following EVs: 252 hp/192 def/64 sdef. If you're using offensive, you should use Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, HP Fire, and Synthesis. If you're using defensive, you should use Synthesis, Giga Drain, and Sludge Bomb. The other move is up to you; there's Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, and Hidden Power Fire. Pick your favorite :)
How could you tell if the Smeargle was a Moody set or a suicide hazard setter from team preview? They both lead, and the Moody Smeargle user can either forgo hazards or use a common offensive Mon like Garchomp or Terrakion, so there may not be a common hazard setter to differentiate it as a Moody Smeargle in the team preview. However, I think you're getting sidetracked from your original issue with Evasion Ability/Brightpowder. At the end of the day, only HO might have an issue with this combination since it's the only team that might not have room for a phazer. Even then, the only fast mons with a high speed and an evasion ability are Garchomp, Froslass, and Dugtrio. Of those, only Garchomp has any real bulk or attack, and his speed tier makes him easy to kill off without a scarf. Everything else has either low bulk, low speed, or both, making it reasonable managable for HO to take them out with 2 or 3 attacks. It sucks that you missed twice and lost, and I really can sympathize with that, but 1 loss does not prove that this is a rampant issue.PokemonMasterDebater said:
I'll consed that Phazing is a good enough counter argument to a quick ban, like I was wanting, especially since Skarm walls Garchomp's and Gliscor's STABs. I'll actually go and test it personally, and see if I can find ways of beating teams with phazors consistently enough to bring it up for an eventual suspect.
Now, time for a simple question. Who, other than Heatran and Skarmory, are good users or Roar or Whirlwind?
Some other possible phazers (some are more generally viable, and some are more comfortable actually running roar/whirlwind than others):
Hippowdon
Zapdos
Blastoise
Gyarados
Tyranitar
Rhyperior
Snorlax
In addition to the above list, there's also Mandibuzz, Dragonite, and Aggron (though of the three I believe only Mandibuzz is usually seen with a phazing move)
Oh, yes, this is it! Thank you! I must have dumped P2 really early on :P
What's a good rock type for a Mega Pinsir and Breloom core?
Tyranitar is a solid option; it can switch in on Mega-Manectric and Talonflame, who are both threatening to Mega Pinsir and Breloom. It can then proceed to KO with appropriate coverage, or predict a switch and deal heavy damage with Pursuit. Tyranitar only fears a burn from WoW from Talonflame.
I believe yes, both turns are treated as Priority moves.
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