Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Salemance]

Uh ok let's address some stuff I've been reading that has been making my eyes hurt or just for some clarification.

Or we can just not rank Forretress and even go as far as to blacklist it because time and time again it's been established as the epitome of overrated garbage that is endorsed by players with little understanding of how it would function from a practical standpoint. Drops the quality of the thread to and we always waste our time trying to explain why it's bad to people with faulty logic. Not even trying to be condenscending it's just that useless. Definitely no.

Ninja'd here above about its loss of effectiveness but M-Diancie and M-Metagross are some others that slow it down. The Choice Band set relies on mediocre speed and proper prediction while its Dragon Dance Set is more or less done more efficiently by others. Espeed was a big selling of point of its former rank and if its effectiveness has decreased, which it has, it should be reflected as such.

Uh I get nobody likes using M-Ttar but that's too low for something that realistically can have the potential to be a monstrosity. Dropped for opportunity cost more than anything really besides the fact that new trends such as M-Lopunny kind of just beating it all the time. It'll just have the M-Garchomp syndrome sooner or later but we just dropped this 2 subranks if you haven't noticed lol. Really got to wait before another big jump like that.

Birdspam =/= Talonflame so if you have a playstyle that's not even used as frequently as it was then its hard to always justify using Rhyperior for your defensive builds to that of a B+ ranked mon. It tanks physical attacks beautifully but it really doesn't want to be taking hits over and over again. I don't have a definitive idea of its placement right now but considering I had a discussion yesterday on PS with someone that thought it was lower and was looking for it in the C ranks I think that'll give you an idea that its viability is questionable at this point.

Small point but we're talking about stuff currently in the B+ and B categories not those you want to move up from lower subranks into that category just thought I'd let you all know.

Breloom should stay B+. I would've advocated this for B but the fact that its offensive sets such as the Banded and Life Orb Technician variants, those with Force Palm as well, to check M-Lopunny and M-Sharpedo with potential to ohko more consistently along with the Poison Heal SD Attacker variants is what I think keeps it at B+ for being able to wall-break a lot of stuff such as Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, and if played well M-Sableye and M-Slowbro as well to name a few. A- is too high though.

XY Aegislash meta was like 6 months ago (>_>) and you can't really use that bulky sets are justification, especially the toxicshuffle one you put as some sort of reason that it's amazing. Touched upon what makes Dragonite less effective in another quote.

Bulkier variants are sort of better tbh try those.

Forgive me AM, but I thought the guy was referring to changing the wording of the example to something other than Forretress, not rank Forretress itself.

 

[AM]

Forgive me AM, but I thought the guy was referring to changing the wording of the example to something other than Forretress, not rank Forretress itself.

Ok yeah I didn't really read it well enough sorry.....Forretress still sucks though :)

 

[Bluwing]

i know we are basically doing the b+ & b ranks now, but i really want to rank manaphy as well as i have used it a ton and i think it should clearly rise.

Manaphy for A/A+ rank: im fine this only going to A, tho i mean between it's tail glow set and it's rain dance + cmrest set is good enough for A+ especially the latter as it basically just destroys anything when it gets rolling. the ability to just flat out 6-0 stall teams, balance teams and even offensive teams are amazing, it's typing is great and so is it's bulk. manaphy also has a ton off favorable matchups in the meta atm, and can even beat it's own checks in thundurus, m-venu, raikou etc. with the cm set, i would say A for now, but this thing is good enough for A+ at least with my experience with it.

Gyarados for A- rank: gyarados is such an anti-meta threath and much like manaphy it has a lot off favourable matchups, excellent bulk, good ability, great stabs and one off the best boosting moves in the game. therefor gyarados should be a- i can also see it rise even further due to how destructive it can be.

Kyurem-B for A- rank: cube is much like gyarados, an anti-meta threath it's incredibly hard to switch into, it's hard to ohko and it has excellent coverage and stab while also having access to roost. this should easy go to a- due to those qualities, can also see this going to a.

M-Beedrill for B+ rank: mdrill is an amazing momentum creater and can just destroy offensive teams if given the opportunity, it's the ultimate glass cannon and has a cool stab duo while also having access too knock off. what is holding it back it's that it's just so easy to wear down, it's extremely predictable and extremely frail and therefor shouldn't rise higher than b+ for now at least.

Scizor to B+ rank: scizor is amazing on bulky offense/offensive teams checking fairies and sporting good offensive presence in general. there is only one set i can see as b+ or even a- worthy tho and thats the offensive lo sd set which is even stronger than adamant offensive msciz with jolly nature. it's not at it's mega's level due to the lack off bulk and longivity, but it indeed a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Gary]

I'm not entirely sure why me and AM's nomination keeps getting completely ignored, but I'm gonna bring it up again seeing as how we are discussing B mons now. So yeah Mega Doom to B rank y/y

I think Mega Houndoom should be moved up to B rank. At first, I didn't really see any reason to run Mega Doom. It's fairly weak because it can't hold a boosting item, and its STAB moves are resisted by common Pokemon such as Greninja, Azumarill, and Tyranitar. On top of that, its got a pretty useless ability unless you're balzy enough to use it on a sun team or something. However, I started testing it a few days ago because I thought it had some potential I just wasn't seeing. Lone behold, I was surprised to see how it excelled quite well in most of my battles and how a lot of offensive teams can have trouble dealing with it. Its typing is actually really cool defensively and offensively, as it is able to stop Mew cold, one of the best support Pokemon in OU, and use it as set up fodder, as well as Mega Sableye, who can't really touch Mega Doom at all. On top of that, its ability Flash Fire, before Mega evolving is really useful, as it can set up on defensive Heatran with Taunt.

And that's the cool thing about Mega Doom. It has a few cool options which makes its last moveslot rather unpredictable and easy to tweak depending on your team. For example, the team I'm using in particular struggles a bit against defensive cores that carry Heatran. So to fix this, I used Taunt in the last moveslot so I can use it to grab a free NP boost and potentially sweep. Taunt is also useful against Chansey, because if you manage to pressure Chansey enough so that it becomes weakened, you might be able to actually bust through Chansey with Mega Doom, because once its Taunted it's forced to Seismic Toss you, so you can just continually do this until it's worn down to a point later in the match where you can set up on it and beat it. Taunt is also useful for preventing shit like CM Clefable and Mega Sableye from setting up on you, while you can return the favor. It also has other cool useful moves at its disposal, particularly Will-O-Wisp which lets you burn shit on the switch, such as Azumarill, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados. Both moves are equally viable, and are all dependent on what your team needs and what your weaknesses are. If you find yourself struggling against defensive cores, then Taunt is preferred. However, Wisp lets you lure in its common switch-ins so that they're heavily crippled and you can potentially use them as set up fodder later on in the match for something else. There's other cool options such as Destiny Bond, which lets you suicide on Pokemon that you can't OHKO and eliminate them for the rest of the match, which can prove to be very useful.

All in all, Mega Doom is a heavily underrated Mega evolution that is greatly undermined for its lack of amazing coverage as well as a pretty mediocre ability, however it checks a lot of top tier threats in the current meta, such as the Lati twins, Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Mew, Heatran, Mega Venu, Mega Scizor, Gengar, Mega Metagross, and Mega Sableye. It can also disrupt a few common defensive Pokemon that give offensive teams trouble, and despite its somewhat subpar SpA stat, it can actually sweep quite frequently when given the right support. I just think Mega Doom fits a lot better with the B ranked Pokemon than many of the VERY niche Pokemon found in B- rank. It's better than most of them. It's sure as hell equally as viable as Mega Camerupt, which I still don't see how it's that high in the first place.

Also please refrain from commenting on Mega Doom if you've never used it before. Many of the arguments I see against it in the other thread clearly had no clue what specific niches and uses Mega Doom has, and simply stated all the common checks and counters it had while ignoring everything else.

 

[HolyAvatar]

I'm not entirely sure why me and AM's nomination keeps getting completely ignored, but I'm gonna bring it up again seeing as how we are discussing B mons now. So yeah Mega Doom to B rank y/y

We are discussing pokemon that are currently in B and B+. Mega Doom is B-.

 

[Cogito]

Hawlucha for B/B-: Hawlucha simple doesn't have the bulk, power or movesets to justify its rank at the current metagame. Pokemon like Talonflame, M-Pinsor, M-Charizard Y, Skarmory, Conkeldurr and M-Gallade outclass it as versatility. Though it does take neutral damage from stealth rocks, the issue is that it has no bulk with 77 def/63 spd and doesn't get roost to heal up for longevity. This means it is very hard to switch into anything and thus you have to get this in safely for more longer life. Speed is amazing but what good will that do if you can barely OKHO the tier? This thing can't do anything to the S class and thus has to switch out automatically just to survive another turn. Let us not forget it has terrible coverage and as someone who has used Hawlucha, nothing is more infuriating than hi jump kicking a pokemon you can actually take out, missing it and then getting killed on the same turn. Flying press doesn't hit hard enough to warrant a slot and quite frankly same could be said about this pokemon.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Yeah we have all been in agreeance that mega houndoom will move up, its just not time for him yet. I also wanted to say that I support beedril moving up to B+, I just think that he is too fast and hits too hard as a u-turner to not prepare for. Granted he gets hard walled by lando-t but I mean getting walled by one mon isnt the end of the world especially when you are switching out everytime he comes in via u-turn. I dont think beedril is as good as mega manectric as a volt-turner so I think beedril should stay a rank below him, but all in all he is solid and is pretty cool mon to build around.

 

[heritage]

Hawlucha for B/B-: Hawlucha simple doesn't have the bulk, power or movesets to justify its rank at the current metagame. Pokemon like Talonflame, M-Pinsor, M-Charizard Y, Skarmory, Conkeldurr and M-Gallade outclass it as versatility. Though it does take neutral damage from stealth rocks, the issue is that it has no bulk with 77 def/63 spd and doesn't get roost to heal up for longevity. This means it is very hard to switch into anything and thus you have to get this in safely for more longer life. Speed is amazing but what good will that do if you can barely OKHO the tier? This thing can't do anything to the S class and thus has to switch out automatically just to survive another turn. Let us not forget it has terrible coverage and as someone who has used Hawlucha, nothing is more infuriating than hi jump kicking a pokemon you can actually take out, missing it and then getting killed on the same turn. Flying press doesn't hit hard enough to warrant a slot and quite frankly same could be said about this pokemon.

I disagree.
The entire point of using Hawlucha is to be a late game sweeper. By the time you send Hawlucha out, all of the checks should be taken care of. Sure, Hawlucha can't do a whole lot to the S rank Pokemon, but they should be long gone before you use the Unburden boost. It's a very potent late game sweeper with the Swords Dance + Focus Sash set, and it has Acrobatics to help that. Its coverage isn't terrible either. It's gotten a lot of new moves in the transition from XY to ORAS, and it only got better. You obviously have either, never used a Hawlucha to any sort of success and have little experience with it, or never used it at all. It's not Mega Lopunny levels of good, but it's fine staying where it is now.

EDIT: Fuck yeah I'm a ninja

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Haw
lucha for B/B-: Hawlucha simple doesn't have the bulk, power or movesets to justify its rank at the current metagame. Pokemon like Talonflame, M-Pinsor, M-Charizard Y, Skarmory, Conkeldurr and M-Gallade outclass it as versatility. Though it does take neutral damage from stealth rocks, the issue is that it has no bulk with 77 def/63 spd and doesn't get roost to heal up for longevity. This means it is very hard to switch into anything and thus you have to get this in safely for more longer life. Speed is amazing but what good will that do if you can barely OKHO the tier? This thing can't do anything to the S class and thus has to switch out automatically just to survive another turn. Let us not forget it has terrible coverage and as someone who has used Hawlucha, nothing is more infuriating than hi jump kicking a pokemon you can actually take out, missing it and then getting killed on the same turn. Flying press doesn't hit hard enough to warrant a slot and quite frankly same could be said about this pokemon.

Hawlucha does not need coverage since acro+HJK is unresisted by almost the entire tier lol. SubSD with sitrus and Focus-sash SD is still pretty deadly against Offensive teams and it is one of the best Late-game sweepers out there not using a meg-slot. It struggles against stall since MegaBro and M-Sableye force it out relativly easily, but they can be worn down with the help of team mates. I can mabye see it drop to B but with that STAB combo there is no way it should be lower than that.

EDIT: Get ninja'd

 

[The Big Aristotle]

for B -> C+ Rank

The camel is an absolute nuke, but it has mediocre bulk, two awful weaknesses (Water/Ground) and no recovery to help it out. This makes Camerupt very hard to switch in, as with a bit of prior damage it gets killed by strong neutral attacks such as Talonflame's Brave Bird and Lati@s' Draco Meteor.

Speaking of the Latis, they can switch in on Camerupt at will. This alludes to a larger problem with Camerupt; its best switch-ins (the Latis, Azu, Rotom-W, Gyarados) are some of the most common Pokemon in OU. For a slow, bulky mon, Camerupt is forced to switch out far too often, and the passive damage it racks up is not good for it at all.

In my usage, I've found that too often the best-case scenario for Camerupt is that it nukes one thing and then dies. It just doesn't have the longevity to be a sweeper or a wall, and as a wallbreaker it's outclassed by other Megas such as ZardX, Gallade and Lopunny. For a mega, it just doesn't last long enough and requires way too much support to be in the B ranks.

 

[jbtc10]

I also wanted to say that I support beedril moving up to B+, I just think that he is too fast and hits too hard as a u-turner to not prepare for. Granted he gets hard walled by lando-t but I mean getting walled by one mon isnt the end of the world especially when you are switching out everytime he comes in via u-turn. I dont think beedril is as good as mega manectric as a volt-turner so I think beedril should stay a rank below him, but all in all he is solid and is pretty cool mon to build around.

Lando-T hates getting hit with Knock Off though, especially Scarf Lando which then forfeits almost all of its checking prowess. Skarm is the true hard wall for it, but U-Turning straight into Magnezone is just all too easy, especially since you've got Knock Off to remove any Shed Shell it may carry. The ease at which Mega Beedrill generates momentum, wears down switch-ins and sets up trapping is impressive. Mega Manetric has better coverage and isn't SR weak, but U-Turn is a lot better then Volt Switch since it's 100% spammable with no momentum loss and Beedrill checks completely different things to Manetric. Agreeing with B+.

 

[Numera]

for B -> C+ Rank

The camel is an absolute nuke, but it has mediocre bulk, two awful weaknesses (Water/Ground) and no recovery to help it out. This makes Camerupt very hard to switch in, as with a bit of prior damage it gets killed by strong neutral attacks such as Talonflame's Brave Bird and Lati@s' Draco Meteor.

Speaking of the Latis, they can switch in on Camerupt at will. This alludes to a larger problem with Camerupt; its best switch-ins (the Latis, Azu, Rotom-W, Gyarados) are some of the most common Pokemon in OU. For a slow, bulky mon, Camerupt is forced to switch out far too often, and the passive damage it racks up is not good for it at all.

In my usage, I've found that too often the best-case scenario for Camerupt is that it nukes one thing and then dies. It just doesn't have the longevity to be a sweeper or a wall, and as a wallbreaker it's outclassed by other Megas such as ZardX, Gallade and Lopunny. For a mega, it just doesn't last long enough and requires way too much support to be in the B ranks.

Ok I would be able to understand a lot of this... if not for the fact that most of those aren't even switch-ins.

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 184-218 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 132-156 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 143-169 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This also demonstrates just how powerful this thing is; you'll force it out a bit, yeah, but not without the cost of a huge chunk of health if this thing manages to get in safely. Also, I WOULD be worried about things like Gyarados ext coming in and setting up, but also keep in mind MCam's forth slot has room for Will-O-Wisp, limiting MCam's switch-ins even further.

Why would we rank it based on how well it can be a sweeper or wall? We should solely focus on how it fufills it's job: A wallbreaker. I agree there are better options for a Mega wallbreaker, but I fail to see how it would be C+ as I really don't think they "completely eclipse" it, as literally nothing on stall likes switching in on a MCam, unlike MGarde where Jirachi ext isn't having too much of a hard time, and that's a damn common Pokemon nowadays. I really think it has a niche over wallbreakers like this and should be no lower than B-. Maybe it does need to drop to B-, idk, but right now I'm happy with it in B Rank and really think putting it in C+ would be a terrible idea.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Adaptability? MCamerupt has Sheer Force.

 

[Talpr0ne]

amusingly the damage output is basically the same with Adaptability and Sheer Force so calcs aren't exactly wrong

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 178-211 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 139-164 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[pika pal]

Ok I would be able to understand a lot of this... if not for the fact that most of those aren't even switch-ins.

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 184-218 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 132-156 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Adaptability Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 143-169 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This also demonstrates just how powerful this thing is; you'll force it out a bit, yeah, but not without the cost of a huge chunk of health if this thing manages to get in safely. Also, I WOULD be worried about things like Gyarados ext coming in and setting up, but also keep in mind MCam's forth slot has room for Will-O-Wisp, limiting MCam's switch-ins even further.

Why would we rank it based on how well it can be a sweeper or wall? We should solely focus on how it fufills it's job: A wallbreaker. I agree there are better options for a Mega wallbreaker, but I fail to see how it would be C+ as I really don't think they "completely eclipse" it, as literally nothing on stall likes switching in on a MCam, unlike MGarde where Jirachi ext isn't having too much of a hard time, and that's a damn common Pokemon nowadays. I really think it has a niche over wallbreakers like this and should be no lower than B-. Maybe it does need to drop to B-, idk, but right now I'm happy with it in B Rank and really think putting it in C+ would be a terrible idea.

Why do your calcs use Adaptability? Cam gets Sheer Force as a Mega, which (assuming you changed the stats) makes a difference in power from those calcs.

The other problem is that Camerupt can't even outspeed the Walls he breaks, so it's much more important for him to OHKO them, or they have the chance to heal. For example, Zard-Y and Camerupt have similar power on Fire Blast: Zard-Y, however, can break Chansey around 50% on the switch, while Camerupt needs it down to 25% because it'll outspeed and Softboil otherwise. Even if Chansey is the premier special wall, Camerupt's speed means he can't manage to land 2 consecutive hits on a lot of his targets, which makes it easier to recover or set up on him despite that power.

 

[heritage]

for B -> C+ Rank

The camel is an absolute nuke, but it has mediocre bulk, two awful weaknesses (Water/Ground) and no recovery to help it out. This makes Camerupt very hard to switch in, as with a bit of prior damage it gets killed by strong neutral attacks such as Talonflame's Brave Bird and Lati@s' Draco Meteor.
The Ground weakness isn't too terrible. It's got great bulk when it Mega Evolves and has Solid Rock before it Megas, allowing it to switch in to certain moves here and there. I mean, yeah the Water weakness is awful, but when nothing particularly wants to switch in anyways, doesn't really matter. When Camperupt comes out, something dies.

Speaking of the Latis, they can switch in on Camerupt at will. This alludes to a larger problem with Camerupt; its best switch-ins (the Latis, Azu, Rotom-W, Gyarados) are some of the most common Pokemon in OU. For a slow, bulky mon, Camerupt is forced to switch out far too often, and the passive damage it racks up is not good for it at all.
Not really. With any sort of prior damage on any or these switch-ins, they're easily beaten in a single hit. Mega Camerupt doesn't have a lot of safe switch ins. Chansey would have been something better for you to say if you really wanted to make a point. It also usually had Will-O-Wisp, making Azu useless.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 178-211 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In my usage, I've found that too often the best-case scenario for Camerupt is that it nukes one thing and then dies. It just doesn't have the longevity to be a sweeper or a wall, and as a wallbreaker it's outclassed by other Megas such as ZardX, Gallade and Lopunny. For a mega, it just doesn't last long enough and requires way too much support to be in the B ranks.
'Of your usage'
Maybe you aren't using it right. Sure, M-Camerupt needs a crap ton of support, but everything does to a certain extent. You obviously haven't used it in a Trick Room, where it just blows through teams. C+ is way too low for this thing.

Replies in bold.

 

[Rechi]

I wouldn't exactly call Azumarill or Gyarados safe switch-ins to Mega Camerupt because both of them hate getting burned by Will-O-Wisp (which is amazing on Megarupt btw) on the switch.

 

[Karxrida]

Recreant, requiring Trick Room to be threatening is like the definition of a C-Rank, since Trick Room is extremely significant support (Rain Mons can at least somewhat function outside of their weather), plus Trick Room isn't exactly the easiest thing to play in Singles.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Honestly all these mega camerupt calcs are not impressive at all. Unless camerupt is able to OHKO his switchins, he is going to be forced out and then struggle to find a time to come back in later. He is sooo god damn slow like I think people are even overestimating his speed. He literally outspeeds nothing, I mean SLOWbro can come in and even if camerupt did 99% to him it doesnt matter because he is now threatened with an OHKO and slowbro just regenerates the health back in like 2 switches while camerupt has no way to get his health back. Idk I mean I just think camerupt is god awful and has a few irrelevant niches, and he is a good in TR. If you are exclusively good in TR which he clearly is, then you should never even see a B rank, especially if you are a mega and people are factoring in opportunity cost.

 

[AM]

Ill make a post later why I think m-cam should stay B/B-. I agree with m-houndoom raise but as mentioned the discussion is for the upper and mid B. Hawlucha shouldnt drop and I'd like a little elaboration on how gyarados is A- material or not.

 

[The Big Aristotle]

Replying to some of the points made:

This also demonstrates just how powerful this thing is; you'll force it out a bit, yeah, but not without the cost of a huge chunk of health if this thing manages to get in safely. Also, I WOULD be worried about things like Gyarados ext coming in and setting up, but also keep in mind MCam's forth slot has room for Will-O-Wisp, limiting MCam's switch-ins even further.

252+ Atk burned Gyarados Waterfall vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 270-318 (83 - 97.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Waterfall vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 306-362 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Will-o-Wisp can't save this thing. I get that its options are "hit something with Fire Blast then switch out" or "burn something then switch out"...but Bulky ZardX, Talonflame, etc. can run similar sets while not being slow as hell and, in Talon's case, not taking up a Mega slot.

Replies in bold.

The Ground weakness is a huge deal, as Camerupt can't switch in on stuff that it should beat, like M-Scep, Heatran, M-Altaria etc., because of the fear of EQ/Earth Power. Pretty much any offensive mon that runs those moves can 2HKO it, and you know Camerupt isn't going to outspeed...

I get that Megarupt can be incredibly effective, it just takes a ton of support to do so. As Karxrida pointed out, its most effective use is in Trick Room, which is the definition of "a ton of support." Outside of TR, Megarupt needs stuff like Wish support, hazard removal, NastyPass etc. to make it truly scary. It's a Pokemon that you have to design your entire team around, and I think that heavily restricts its usage.

Edit:

Is my name really that hard to spell?

Only when my contacts aren't in. :)

 

[Numera]

Ok for one MY CALCS SUCK AND SHOULD BE IGNORED BECAUSE THE WRONG ABILITY.

Anyway...

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 139-164 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 178-211 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Still not switchins.

Honestly all these mega camerupt calcs are not impressive at all. Unless camerupt is able to OHKO his switchins, he is going to be forced out and then struggle to find a time to come back in later. He is sooo god damn slow like I think people are even overestimating his speed. He literally outspeeds nothing, I mean SLOWbro can come in and even if camerupt did 99% to him it doesnt matter because he is now threatened with an OHKO and slowbro just regenerates the health back in like 2 switches while camerupt has no way to get his health back. Idk I mean I just think camerupt is god awful and has a few irrelevant niches, and he is a good in TR. If you are exclusively good in TR which he clearly is, then you should never even see a B rank, especially if you are a mega and people are factoring in opportunity cost.

It really does matter when things switch in. While with things like Slowbro it isn't much of a problem, a lot of things on more offensive teams have lost that health for GOOD, and in some cases, that damage is unavoidable, because this thing is just so damn hard to switch into. Also, I really think that being able to pressure stall even more than MGarde on a switch-in degree (it's harder to switch into, but it's not 6-0ing it and is still inferior overall), and being able to cripple checks like Azumarill ext for the rest of the game is a very nice niche as well.

Oh god, the common misconception is here. Contrary to popular belief, Mega Camerupt is perfectly viable outside of TR; Mega Cam fits really well on balanced.

Replying to some of the points made:



252+ Atk burned Gyarados Waterfall vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 270-318 (83 - 97.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Waterfall vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 306-362 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Will-o-Wisp can't save this thing. I get that its options are "hit something with Fire Blast then switch out" or "burn something then switch out"...but Bulky ZardX, Talonflame, etc. can run similar sets while not being slow as hell and, in Talon's case, not taking up a Mega slot.


The Ground weakness is a huge deal, as Camerupt can't switch in on stuff that it should beat, like M-Scep, Heatran, M-Altaria etc., because of the fear of EQ/Earth Power. Pretty much any offensive mon that runs those moves can 2HKO it, and you know Camerupt isn't going to outspeed...

I get that Megarupt can be incredibly effective, it just takes a ton of support to do so. As Kaxrida pointed out, its most effective use is in Trick Room, which is the definition of "a ton of support." Outside of TR, Megarupt needs stuff like Wish support, hazard removal, NastyPass etc. to make it truly scary. It's a Pokemon that you have to design your entire team around, and I think that heavily restricts its usage.

The point wasn't that Will-o-Wisp would save it, it was that it would cripple those threats for the rest of the game. Also, last time I checked, neither of them hit NEARLY as hard as Mega Camerupt, and both of them are weak to SR (MCam being an SR neutral fire type is pretty cool). Also, it's not always needing that "ton of support" because you don't NEED all of those things. I agree, having wish and hazard removal is extremely useful, but this also applies to the majority of bulky offensive Pokemon that lack recovery, and let me tell you right now that MCam DOES NOT need NastyPass. You really don't have to build the entire team around it, it's just that you'll be in a horrible shape without wish or hazard removal, which I see in a lot of the B/B- ranked Pokemon. C+ is just cutting it a little too low.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Lot of you are underestimating Quagsire's bulk and things it walls. Sure its not skarm bulk or anything, but it has great typing and can beat most set up sweepers. Yeah most wallbreakers can beat it, but that is what its teammates are for. Its definitely B+ Worthy.

Crap quagsire walls:
Landorous-T, Non grassknot MegaGross, Some Thunderus (usually has to resort to focus miss) physical MegaAltiaria, Bisharp, Unaware Clefable, Bellydrum and Assault Vest Azumarill, Non Outrage ZardX, Checks heatran, MegaScizor, Checks MegaSabeleye, Beats SD Talonflame, non rest megaSlowbro, MegaLopunny, Non Lifeorb Garchomp and Excadrill, non HP Grass MegaMan, Tyranitar, MegaAerodactyl, Jirachi, Magnezone, NonFreeze dry Mamoswine, NonbandDragonite, Gyarados, Hawlucha, Hippodown, Raikou, Rhyperior, Skarmory, Victini (one of the few counters btw).
That is just S-B+ also

Its just offers so much utility for stall teams
In addition look at smog tour results, it has one of the highest win rates around 67%

calcs:

Hide

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%)
252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%)
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%)
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Karxrida]

Replying to some of the points made:



252+ Atk burned Gyarados Waterfall vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 270-318 (83 - 97.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Waterfall vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 306-362 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Will-o-Wisp can't save this thing. I get that its options are "hit something with Fire Blast then switch out" or "burn something then switch out"...but Bulky ZardX, Talonflame, etc. can run similar sets while not being slow as hell and, in Talon's case, not taking up a Mega slot.


The Ground weakness is a huge deal, as Camerupt can't switch in on stuff that it should beat, like M-Scep, Heatran, M-Altaria etc., because of the fear of EQ/Earth Power. Pretty much any offensive mon that runs those moves can 2HKO it, and you know Camerupt isn't going to outspeed...

I get that Megarupt can be incredibly effective, it just takes a ton of support to do so. As Kaxrida pointed out, its most effective use is in Trick Room, which is the definition of "a ton of support." Outside of TR, Megarupt needs stuff like Wish support, hazard removal, NastyPass etc. to make it truly scary. It's a Pokemon that you have to design your entire team around, and I think that heavily restricts its usage.

Is my name really that hard to spell? Come on guys, it rhymes with Marx at the front; the very least you could do is put Karx. :/

Ok for one MY CALCS SUCK AND SHOULD BE IGNORED BECAUSE THE WRONG ABILITY.

Anyway...

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 139-164 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 178-211 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Still not switchins.



It really does matter when things switch in. While with things like Slowbro it isn't much of a problem, a lot of things on more offensive teams have lost that health for GOOD, and in some cases, that damage is unavoidable, because this thing is just so damn hard to switch into. Also, I really think that being able to pressure stall even more than MGarde on a switch-in degree (it's harder to switch into, but it's not 6-0ing it and is still inferior overall), and being able to cripple checks like Azumarill ext for the rest of the game is a very nice niche as well.

Oh god, the common misconception is here. Contrary to popular belief, Mega Camerupt is perfectly viable outside of TR; Mega Cam fits really well on balanced.



The point wasn't that Will-o-Wisp would save it, it was that it would cripple those threats for the rest of the game. Also, last time I checked, neither of them hit NEARLY as hard as Mega Camerupt, and both of them are weak to SR (MCam being an SR neutral fire type is pretty cool). Also, it's not always needing that "ton of support" because you don't NEED all of those things. I agree, having wish and hazard removal is extremely useful, but this also applies to the majority of bulky offensive Pokemon that lack recovery, and let me tell you right now that MCam DOES NOT need NastyPass. You really don't have to build the entire team around it, it's just that you'll be in a horrible shape without wish or hazard removal, which I see in a lot of the B/B- ranked Pokemon. C+ is just cutting it a little too low.

Latios can potentially be an issue since it may be running Roost. Not the most common thing in the world, but it's a possibility and will let it counter you more than once.

If we want to be technical, they are all still counters because they OHKO back before you can finish them off with another Fire Blast, especially if you mispredict and they switch in on an immunity (or resist in Azumarill's case).

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 85-101 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 167-197 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wearing them down so they can't switch in more than once is pretty good, but you're not going to do anything like stopping a BD Azumarill from setting up unless you're super ballsy.

 

[Blastgang]

You obviously haven't used it in a Trick Room, where it just blows through teams. C+ is way too low for this thing. In TR he is a savage beast. Also is a nuke without TR and irs very dangerous switch into:

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 334-394 (111.7 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 334-394 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Sheer Force Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 340-404 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 1104-1300 (321.8 - 379%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-307 (80.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 522-614 (175.7 - 206.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 746-878 (274.2 - 322.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Sheer Force Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 440-520 (134.5 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 608-716 (224.3 - 264.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 301-355 (105.2 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 404-476 (110.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 246-291 (88.8 - 105%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 219-258 (81.2 - 94.6%) -- 72.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 788-930 (218.2 - 257.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 548-648 (195 - 230.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Heatran:

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 648-768 (168.3 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 208-246 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Also Latios die if switches in:
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 265-313 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO