I think someone mentioned at some point that everything in OU or BL has to be ranked, or some weird technicality like that. Not sure where I heard that, but maybe alexwolf would like to comment on that.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I don't agree with this nomination simply because Talonflame is a notoriously good Mega Sableye counter and it's being used a lot more on stall teams as a stallbreaker. The SpD set in particular is A+ Rank to be honest, everything else is A at best if you'd ask me; however the SpD set itself is its saving grace. Alone, it's a pretty lame Pokemon, but the synergy it provides is great and its stallbreaking utility is its greatest niche. Is it A+? Yes. Is it low A+? Yes. There's always going to be an underdog in a rank, and I'd say Talonflame is near the bottom end of A+, but it doesn't deserve to drop to A for its stallbreaking capabilities and slot on fat Mega Sableye stall teams.
If you don't feel like Talon is as threatening as it used to, then you must be doing something wrong lol. The transition from XY to ORAS couldn't have been kinder to Smog bird. Basically every really good Mega in the tier apart from Mega Diancie is checked in some way by Talonflame; Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Mega Lop, Mega Sceptile, Mega Sableye to an extent, and Mega Altaria. On top of that, it still checks a fuck ton of other things, but I don't feel like listing all of them out because all you have to do is just look at the rankings yourself and see just the sheer amount of Pokemon that hate it. Almost all of the Pokemon you mentioned that trouble it, were already so prevalent in the tier already bar Mega Diancie, and Talonflame still managed to be a huge bitch regardless just because of how easy it was to weaken said checks/counters and beat everything at +2.
CB Talon isn't a bad set, but I agree it's not the best set at the moment just because of how annoying it is losing so much momentum by being locked into Flare Blitz or Brave Bird at certain times. Now the specially defensive stallbreaker sets as well as the plain old SD Sharp Beak sets are basically satan and it does so much work against offensive teams it's not even funny actually. Balance teams struggle against as well regardless of using Heatran or Rotom-W, simply because like I mentioned above, many of them can be weakened or easily exploited enough so that Talon has no problem sweeping later. Scarf Landorus-T for example can only switch into a Sharp Beak Brave Bird like one time reliably, and then from that point on it has to rely on checking it and praying that it doesn't get to +2 before it can come in.
It's still one of the most reliable and terrifying sweepers in the metagame that has the ability to take on multiple archetypes as well as check some of the most dominant Pokemon in OU. Saying that it's not on par with some of OU's finest is a huge exaggeration, and there's no way in hell Talonflame has gotten fucked by the ORAS transition as hard as you're saying it is. Being 4x weak to SR as well as the introduction to Mega Diance is not enough to warrant it a drop.
CB Talon isn't a bad set, but I agree it's not the best set at the moment just because of how annoying it is losing so much momentum by being locked into Flare Blitz or Brave Bird at certain times. Now the specially defensive stallbreaker sets as well as the plain old SD Sharp Beak sets are basically satan and it does so much work against offensive teams it's not even funny actually. Balance teams struggle against as well regardless of using Heatran or Rotom-W, simply because like I mentioned above, many of them can be weakened or easily exploited enough so that Talon has no problem sweeping later. Scarf Landorus-T for example can only switch into a Sharp Beak Brave Bird like one time reliably, and then from that point on it has to rely on checking it and praying that it doesn't get to +2 before it can come in.
It's still one of the most reliable and terrifying sweepers in the metagame that has the ability to take on multiple archetypes as well as check some of the most dominant Pokemon in OU. Saying that it's not on par with some of OU's finest is a huge exaggeration, and there's no way in hell Talonflame has gotten fucked by the ORAS transition as hard as you're saying it is. Being 4x weak to SR as well as the introduction to Mega Diance is not enough to warrant it a drop.
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I'll talk abit more about Specs, since it's the one that I have been using a lot recently and it's been really really good to use. Like Clone has said, the 115 Speed Tier is insanely good right now. It outspeeds the standard 110 unboosted tier and it allows him to run around and hitting things hard with Specs. The Specs set is extremely good right now because of how it is capable of tearing holes in team. Bulky waters (Mega Bro is hit 80% odd with tbolt at +1) are neutered with Specskou and it also acts as a very strong birdspam check. Also, I think one of it's biggest niche is actually being a mon that cannot be paralyzed. This not only gives you more versatility, it also gives you a lot more switch ins. To top it off, because of it's high powered nukes, not many mons can switch in as the standard Tbolt / Voltswitch / HP Ice / Shadow Ball gives you a lot of power to destroy switch ins. The biggest drawbacks though are that it is choiced mon (duh) and two is that scarf LandT is still running amok.
I'll probably add more to my point later since I'm in a rush now, but overall I support the nomination of Raikou to A.
Might as well attempt to defend myself so here we go
Wouldn't I be doing something right if none of my teams are particularly threatened by Smogon Bird? Not as threatening as it used to be =/= not threatening. Talonflame is at the point where I can look at the team preview and figure out what type of set it is so that I can adjust my playstyle accordingly. Yeah I'm sometimes wrong but that's life and I move on.
Ignoring Sableye for this part since I agree with it, but of other other mons you listed, all of them have a way of dealing a shiton of damage to Talon should it choose to switch in. Metagross does 51% on average to CB. Talon with meteor mash, while bulkier variants (120 HP) take 45% on average, leaving it weakened and forced to roost. If rocks are up (I will address this issue later on in this post), Talon straight up loses if gross packs BP (which is really fucking good on him btw). If Talon comes in on Zen Headbutt or Thunder Punch it straight up loses. 120 HP Talon loses 50% to Gallade's CC, and both Knock Off and Zen Headbutt do respectable damage, and straight up KO if Gallade has boosted or rocks are up. Talon can switch in on Sceptile, yeah, but D Pulse does a clean 66% to 120 HP variants (I list this because its one of the HP numbers used for SD). Talon only beats Altaria if its the physical DD variant because bulky variants can outlast it. Mega Lopunny does 46% on the switch with HJK, while return does a clean 76%.
The point of all that is that Talon can only revenge these mons, as bar Sceptile, it takes a shiton of damage from even resisted hits do upwards of 50%. I realize what you were saying with the checking thing but honestly talonflames bulk is so bad that it can be a liability if it has already used brave bird once or twice, as it can be worn down by recoil damage.
Like above, Talon can only revenge kil many of the things it 'checks'. And that's my problem with it. The fact that it has very few switch in opportunities (talking about offensive sets here - the most common ones), leaves a bad impression when it's supposed to 'check' half the tier.
At this point I honestly feel like you're really overselling Talonflame. I've already said that he's still a threat in my original post, but you're making him seem like some sort of god that he isn't. Yes, Talonflame is annoying for teams. No, that doesn't mean its A+ in my eyes, when many teams are prepared for it. Back in XY, Birdspam existed, which allowed these Birdspam teams to suicide themselves to weaken these checks so that the other bird can sweep. Now, Pinsir, Talons partner in crime, has lost a lot of viability and Birdspam doesn't exist anymore. In the hundreds of ORAS games I've played on bothe the ladder and against friends, I've seen a small handful of Birdspam teams, which just goes to show their loss of viability.
How exactly does the SD set put in so much work against offensive teams? Every offensive team I've run and seen have at least one hard check and sometimes even multiple soft checks to the bird. I mean, it puts in work for sure but you're drastically overselling its traits. A well played offensive team can apply enough pressure to force Talonflame in early where it racks up recoild damage to the point where it can be killed the next time it comes in. And if it manages to keep rocks up throughout the game (which should be a top priority against a team with Talonflame), then it's a lot less threatening.
Also when did I say ORAS fucked it over lmao. I said it's not as threatening, there's a difference.
I literally mentioned it in my post one time. ONE TIME. So for the love of god don't attack my credibility by blowing one small mention out of proportion.
But since you brought it up I might as well make a comparison: Zard Y. It, too, has a 4x SR weakness. It, too, puts in work against offense and balance. It, too, requires quite a bit of team support. Does it mean its bad? No. It's sitting comfortably in A rank as one of the better A ranks out there. Now back to stealth Rock. While on the surface it may seem like it's not a huge deal, it really is when there are hazard setters out there that are capable of beating, or are paired up with mons that are capable of beating, common defoggers / spinners. SR Garchomp is an example as while it does lose to. Lati@s, they have to drop a Draco to kill him or risk being KOed by Dragon Claw / Outrage. Clef ales beats the Latis and has the staying power to come in multiple times and lay rocks should they be removed. Also add Ferrothorn and Heatran to that list, as while they /can/ lose to the Latis, they don't always lose. Additionally, Bisharp exists and AV sharp completely takes advantage of the Latis which makes defogging a liability against teams with sharp. It's the reason why sharp is run on many HO teams. Additionally, Talonflame relies on recoil moves to take out its opponents, so if it does come in on rocks, the amount of damage it can dish out is severely reduced.
I'm going to end this post by emphasizing something I said in my original post (which is unedited btw) where I said that Talon is still good. I know he's good, and I know he's threatening. I just said he's not as good or as threatening as before, and that i feel that A rank would be more appropriate. I honestly don't feel that Talon is on par with Gengar, Sableye, Lopunny, Keldeo, etc, and instead more on par with Zard Y, Garchomp, mega Diancie, and Excadrill. Additionally, Pinsir resides in A rank, and they more or less check most of the same things (keyword most; ik that they can take on different things). I still stand by the notion that Talonflame is A rank, while at best being the worst A+ rank.
Wouldn't I be doing something right if none of my teams are particularly threatened by Smogon Bird? Not as threatening as it used to be =/= not threatening. Talonflame is at the point where I can look at the team preview and figure out what type of set it is so that I can adjust my playstyle accordingly. Yeah I'm sometimes wrong but that's life and I move on.
Ignoring Sableye for this part since I agree with it, but of other other mons you listed, all of them have a way of dealing a shiton of damage to Talon should it choose to switch in. Metagross does 51% on average to CB. Talon with meteor mash, while bulkier variants (120 HP) take 45% on average, leaving it weakened and forced to roost. If rocks are up (I will address this issue later on in this post), Talon straight up loses if gross packs BP (which is really fucking good on him btw). If Talon comes in on Zen Headbutt or Thunder Punch it straight up loses. 120 HP Talon loses 50% to Gallade's CC, and both Knock Off and Zen Headbutt do respectable damage, and straight up KO if Gallade has boosted or rocks are up. Talon can switch in on Sceptile, yeah, but D Pulse does a clean 66% to 120 HP variants (I list this because its one of the HP numbers used for SD). Talon only beats Altaria if its the physical DD variant because bulky variants can outlast it. Mega Lopunny does 46% on the switch with HJK, while return does a clean 76%.
The point of all that is that Talon can only revenge these mons, as bar Sceptile, it takes a shiton of damage from even resisted hits do upwards of 50%. I realize what you were saying with the checking thing but honestly talonflames bulk is so bad that it can be a liability if it has already used brave bird once or twice, as it can be worn down by recoil damage.
Like above, Talon can only revenge kil many of the things it 'checks'. And that's my problem with it. The fact that it has very few switch in opportunities (talking about offensive sets here - the most common ones), leaves a bad impression when it's supposed to 'check' half the tier.
At this point I honestly feel like you're really overselling Talonflame. I've already said that he's still a threat in my original post, but you're making him seem like some sort of god that he isn't. Yes, Talonflame is annoying for teams. No, that doesn't mean its A+ in my eyes, when many teams are prepared for it. Back in XY, Birdspam existed, which allowed these Birdspam teams to suicide themselves to weaken these checks so that the other bird can sweep. Now, Pinsir, Talons partner in crime, has lost a lot of viability and Birdspam doesn't exist anymore. In the hundreds of ORAS games I've played on bothe the ladder and against friends, I've seen a small handful of Birdspam teams, which just goes to show their loss of viability.
How exactly does the SD set put in so much work against offensive teams? Every offensive team I've run and seen have at least one hard check and sometimes even multiple soft checks to the bird. I mean, it puts in work for sure but you're drastically overselling its traits. A well played offensive team can apply enough pressure to force Talonflame in early where it racks up recoild damage to the point where it can be killed the next time it comes in. And if it manages to keep rocks up throughout the game (which should be a top priority against a team with Talonflame), then it's a lot less threatening.
You forgot about Slowbro, Rhyperior, and Raikou as bird checks on balance teams. And yes, they can be worn down, but that applies to any check for any sweeper and shouldn't be your main argument for keeping Talonflame in A+. Only the Sp def Taunt / wisp set truly gives balance teams trouble imo, as it shuts down defensive Pokémon with taunt and roosts off the damage. Additionally, the SpDef set can't be slapped onto any team, as it only works on balance and semi stall, as it kills too much momentum for offensive teams.
Once again, you're overselling Talonflame. It's not very strong without a boost and the meta is at a point where Talonflame has to work to beat a team, just like a Diancie or Pinsir would have to work for their wins. It doesn't 6-0 teams and it requires quite a bit of team support to fully carry out its job on a Team. If its 6-0ing then something is wrong with the team that has been 6-0ed because it's not terribly hard to keep it in check like the rest of the meta.
Also when did I say ORAS fucked it over lmao. I said it's not as threatening, there's a difference.
I literally mentioned it in my post one time. ONE TIME. So for the love of god don't attack my credibility by blowing one small mention out of proportion.
But since you brought it up I might as well make a comparison: Zard Y. It, too, has a 4x SR weakness. It, too, puts in work against offense and balance. It, too, requires quite a bit of team support. Does it mean its bad? No. It's sitting comfortably in A rank as one of the better A ranks out there. Now back to stealth Rock. While on the surface it may seem like it's not a huge deal, it really is when there are hazard setters out there that are capable of beating, or are paired up with mons that are capable of beating, common defoggers / spinners. SR Garchomp is an example as while it does lose to. Lati@s, they have to drop a Draco to kill him or risk being KOed by Dragon Claw / Outrage. Clef ales beats the Latis and has the staying power to come in multiple times and lay rocks should they be removed. Also add Ferrothorn and Heatran to that list, as while they /can/ lose to the Latis, they don't always lose. Additionally, Bisharp exists and AV sharp completely takes advantage of the Latis which makes defogging a liability against teams with sharp. It's the reason why sharp is run on many HO teams. Additionally, Talonflame relies on recoil moves to take out its opponents, so if it does come in on rocks, the amount of damage it can dish out is severely reduced.
I'm going to end this post by emphasizing something I said in my original post (which is unedited btw) where I said that Talon is still good. I know he's good, and I know he's threatening. I just said he's not as good or as threatening as before, and that i feel that A rank would be more appropriate. I honestly don't feel that Talon is on par with Gengar, Sableye, Lopunny, Keldeo, etc, and instead more on par with Zard Y, Garchomp, mega Diancie, and Excadrill. Additionally, Pinsir resides in A rank, and they more or less check most of the same things (keyword most; ik that they can take on different things). I still stand by the notion that Talonflame is A rank, while at best being the worst A+ rank.
If possible could we primarily focus on the C - D ranks before jumping the gun? I know everyone have much stronger opinion on the big boys but there are a shitton of pokemon in the C rank that makes it look like a clusterfuck and I think they should take priority.
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B to B- / C+
I don't really get why t-tar m is this high in the meta.Although it has very much bulk,it's very much let down by it's awful defensive typing.It can easily set up 1 DD with it's bulk but it has very much problems when sweeping cuz it's still revenged by faster stuff like mega loppu and mega sceptile as well as landorus-t the most common scarfer in the meta.Even if u don't have scarfers anymore there's still a lot of stuff that can take it's attacks like keldeo and azumarill.It also has a lot of competition at dragon dancing and it's arguably the worst at it's job.Finally,it also uses the mega slot.So T-tar mega to B- or even C+.
Other Stuff i Agree with
Mega Sableye to S
Mega Loppuny to S
Mega Beedrill to B+
Hydreigon to B- / C+
Togekiss stay in B
Absol to C+ / B-
Tentacruel to B- / B
Mega Gallade to A
While I do agree with this, I just want to say that Azu and Keldeo are only soft checks because Azumarill dies to +1 Stone Edge after stealth rock damage and Kelde takes ~73-82% from +1 Superpower, so after a little bit of prior damage it is gone.Tyranitar Mega
B to B- / C+
I don't really get why t-tar m is this high in the meta.Although it has very much bulk,it's very much let down by it's awful defensive typing.It can easily set up 1 DD with it's bulk but it has very much problems when sweeping cuz it's still revenged by faster stuff like mega loppu and mega sceptile as well as landorus-t the most common scarfer in the meta.Even if u don't have scarfers anymore there's still a lot of stuff that can take it's attacks like keldeo and azumarill.It also has a lot of competition at dragon dancing and it's arguably the worst at it's job.Finally,it also uses the mega slot.So T-tar mega to B- or even C+.
Other Stuff i Agree with
Mega Sableye to S
Mega Loppuny to S
Mega Beedrill to B+
Hydreigon to B- / C+
Togekiss stay in B
Absol to C+ / B-
Tentacruel to B- / B
Mega Gallade to A
That's not it's problems honestly. It's problems to me are that it wastes a mega slot to essentially do one job of Tyranitar slightly better, which is only really worth it for a few teams.Tyranitar Mega
B to B- / C+
I don't really get why t-tar m is this high in the meta.Although it has very much bulk,it's very much let down by it's awful defensive typing.It can easily set up 1 DD with it's bulk but it has very much problems when sweeping cuz it's still revenged by faster stuff like mega loppu and mega sceptile as well as landorus-t the most common scarfer in the meta.Even if u don't have scarfers anymore there's still a lot of stuff that can take it's attacks like keldeo and azumarill.It also has a lot of competition at dragon dancing and it's arguably the worst at it's job.Finally,it also uses the mega slot.So T-tar mega to B- or even C+.
Other Stuff i Agree with
Mega Sableye to S
Mega Loppuny to S
Mega Beedrill to B+
Hydreigon to B- / C+
Togekiss stay in B
Absol to C+ / B-
Tentacruel to B- / B
Mega Gallade to A
Mawile (base forme after the mega was banned) and Vaporeon were both unranked during their time in OU, so this certainly isn't the case.
D ranks are cool.
Mega Audino, Cloyster, Flygon, Jellicent, Metagross, Salamence, and Mega Steelix are all fucking terrible and should be removed. They're all either of outclassed, worthless outside of a minuscule niche, terrible in almost every game, or some combination of these.
Cofagrigus, Gorebyss, Venomoth, Whimsicott and MAYBE Meloetta have enough of a legitimate, worthwhile niche to merit their ranking FOR NOW.
Dugtrio should move up to C- on account of it being a good partner to certain Pokemon, moreso than Gothitelle in this case thanks to the advantage of Ground-type STAB and a much higher base Speed. Dugtrio is one of the best offensive partners to Pokemon like Mega Pidgeot, Talonflame, and Mega Metagross because it's possibly the easiest way of removing some of their biggest annoyances, like Heatran and Tyranitar, while also having use against offensive teams with Mega Metagross as it's an ok offensive checks to Mega Metagross lacking Bullet Punch, which is a large amount of them. It can also beat Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, Excadrill, and Mega Diancie 1v1 as it 2HKOes everything at least, with Sash EQ. Against stall teams, it can usually trap an important piece of the team, like slightly weakened Jirachi, Heatran, and Tentacruel, though it really cannot switch in on Scald.
Heracross should move to C rank in my opinion, though I'm not too sure. On one hand, in theory CB Heracross is a good Mega Sableye counter since it is able to completely take advantage of Will-O-Wisp, but on the other hand PhD Clefable is on most stall teams and while CB Facade does about 80%, it requires status, and against teams with Heracross, most Mega Sableye are reluctant to use Will-O-Wisp, at least from my experience. My question is whether even dissuading the use of WoW is enough to give Heracross that extra edge, as you can try to win mindgames to receive the burn, otherwise you simply can't do anything to stall except for being walled by Clefable and giving the opponent a free turn. What does interest me is a set that came up on Skype, SD Toxic Orb, which isn't reliant on Mega Sableye for the burn and can actually damage PhD Clefable without the stall team being able to pivot around it. It's decently fast too, at least, it outspeeds most Pokemon on defensive teams.
Hydreigon should also move up to C+ or B-, though not because entirely because of the Choice Scarf set which has come up in this thread. From my experience, the LO set is far more threatening and effective in this meta as it threatens most balance cores very well. Draco Meteor is your standard "hit stuff hard" move, Dark Pulse takes advantage of the prevalence of Psychic-types in balance cores, like Slowbro, Mega Slowbro, Jirachi, and Celebi, Flash Cannon enables Hydreigon to beat PhD Clefable, one of the biggest nuisances to overcome for a Pokemon trying to take on balance cores unless you're using Landorus, and Superpower does a lot to Heatran after minimal prior damage, and can take Chansey down if it's been sufficiently weakened if it's trying to use you as an opportunity to recover (think Spikes pivoting with something like Volt Switch Rotom-W, or the use of Pursuit from Bisharp, hazards making the necessary damage easier).
Mega Audino, Cloyster, Flygon, Jellicent, Metagross, Salamence, and Mega Steelix are all fucking terrible and should be removed. They're all either of outclassed, worthless outside of a minuscule niche, terrible in almost every game, or some combination of these.
Cofagrigus, Gorebyss, Venomoth, Whimsicott and MAYBE Meloetta have enough of a legitimate, worthwhile niche to merit their ranking FOR NOW.
Dugtrio should move up to C- on account of it being a good partner to certain Pokemon, moreso than Gothitelle in this case thanks to the advantage of Ground-type STAB and a much higher base Speed. Dugtrio is one of the best offensive partners to Pokemon like Mega Pidgeot, Talonflame, and Mega Metagross because it's possibly the easiest way of removing some of their biggest annoyances, like Heatran and Tyranitar, while also having use against offensive teams with Mega Metagross as it's an ok offensive checks to Mega Metagross lacking Bullet Punch, which is a large amount of them. It can also beat Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, Excadrill, and Mega Diancie 1v1 as it 2HKOes everything at least, with Sash EQ. Against stall teams, it can usually trap an important piece of the team, like slightly weakened Jirachi, Heatran, and Tentacruel, though it really cannot switch in on Scald.
Heracross should move to C rank in my opinion, though I'm not too sure. On one hand, in theory CB Heracross is a good Mega Sableye counter since it is able to completely take advantage of Will-O-Wisp, but on the other hand PhD Clefable is on most stall teams and while CB Facade does about 80%, it requires status, and against teams with Heracross, most Mega Sableye are reluctant to use Will-O-Wisp, at least from my experience. My question is whether even dissuading the use of WoW is enough to give Heracross that extra edge, as you can try to win mindgames to receive the burn, otherwise you simply can't do anything to stall except for being walled by Clefable and giving the opponent a free turn. What does interest me is a set that came up on Skype, SD Toxic Orb, which isn't reliant on Mega Sableye for the burn and can actually damage PhD Clefable without the stall team being able to pivot around it. It's decently fast too, at least, it outspeeds most Pokemon on defensive teams.
Hydreigon should also move up to C+ or B-, though not because entirely because of the Choice Scarf set which has come up in this thread. From my experience, the LO set is far more threatening and effective in this meta as it threatens most balance cores very well. Draco Meteor is your standard "hit stuff hard" move, Dark Pulse takes advantage of the prevalence of Psychic-types in balance cores, like Slowbro, Mega Slowbro, Jirachi, and Celebi, Flash Cannon enables Hydreigon to beat PhD Clefable, one of the biggest nuisances to overcome for a Pokemon trying to take on balance cores unless you're using Landorus, and Superpower does a lot to Heatran after minimal prior damage, and can take Chansey down if it's been sufficiently weakened if it's trying to use you as an opportunity to recover (think Spikes pivoting with something like Volt Switch Rotom-W, or the use of Pursuit from Bisharp, hazards making the necessary damage easier).
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Yeah the more I think about it, the more I feel like MLopunny fits in S. My only problem with this nom is that, while Lopunny can be devastating against offensive teams and quite good vs bulkier teams, it can't really do both at once. Without Fake Out although it is certainly good vs offense, it can't get that crucial chip damage that makes it so tricky for offense to handle, or mega all that easily either. Without Substitute, it's protect bait for the likes of Ferrothorn and Heatran. I've actually been driven to use Fake Out+Sub on the same set, since both are just amazing moves to have on MLop, but even then it's not doing much to most physically defensive Pokemon who can just sit there and wall it. In some ways it does have a minor case of 4MSS, since it wants STABs+Fake Out+Sub+Utility Move (either Toxic, PuP, Baton Pass or Encore) in order to maximize effectiveness against all playstyles. On the other hand, 4MSS also means versatility, and MLopunny's ability to threaten multiple types of teams depending on what it runs is really impressive.
What strikes me the most about MLopunny is how comfortable and easy to use is is. It's so easy to gain momentum by using it, and you need little to no prediction to use it, well, you do need some prediction vs balanced teams, when your opponent has the choice to either go to a Fighting resist or something bulky enough to tank 2 Returns but not 2 HJKs like Rotom-W (but I mean, this is what Sub is for), but vs offense literally just spam whatever STAB and you should be fine. It's just a very safe Pokemon to use, not sure I can properly explain why but it's never really a liability despite its inability to break a few things. In some ways it reminds me of Azumarill in its prime so I could definitely see this in S rank.
The only thing stopping Sableye from being S rank is how prepared the metagame is for it (TG Manaphy and SD Talon being particularly common), but even so, if we're judging viability by how much a Pokemon can bring to a team and how these outweigh its flaws then Sableye is definitely S rank, sure a few things take advantage of it but the amount of stuff you don't have to worry about by putting it on your team and the amount of release it brings upon teambuilding in general is just phenomenal. I've tried building stall without MSableye and though it's definitely possible, you just have to cover so much more stuff and end up wasting teamslots. Also it's like, the most centralizing Pokemon in the tier so yeah, not putting it in S seems odd given that it's the greatest deciding factor in viability atm, so many Pokemon dropped just because it exists.
Speaking of which... Gallade in A makes sense because Sableye :/ It's still really strong vs balanced teams though, but the metagame is really unkind to it atm, since the most common Stall build runs its 2 best counters (Sableye+Unaware Clefable), though I can see things being better for it in the future now it's not that great.
I don't agree with MLatias dropping at all though. Disregarding the Stored Power set, I've actually seen a set of Roost/Reflect Type/Defog/Psyshock or Dragon Pulse used as a hazard remover on Stall and it just does not die, it's an excellent defensive Pokemon which beats a ton of stuff, and RType is really good since it lets you 1v1 Ferro and even Bisharp if you carry Dragon Pulse. If you're going to drop it don't drop it because if Stored Power since that's not the only set and maybe not even the best set.
The problem with MPidgeot is that Tornadus-T kinda... exists. And yeah, MPidgeot's Hurricanes are more accurate and everything, but the ability to actually hit TTar and Heatran is huge and I would much rather have that than a 100% accurate STAB especially given how common Heatran is atm. Torn-T also has a lot of utility in Knock Off so I don't really see why I'd run Pidgeot.
also Manaphy is fantastic put it in A rank.
What strikes me the most about MLopunny is how comfortable and easy to use is is. It's so easy to gain momentum by using it, and you need little to no prediction to use it, well, you do need some prediction vs balanced teams, when your opponent has the choice to either go to a Fighting resist or something bulky enough to tank 2 Returns but not 2 HJKs like Rotom-W (but I mean, this is what Sub is for), but vs offense literally just spam whatever STAB and you should be fine. It's just a very safe Pokemon to use, not sure I can properly explain why but it's never really a liability despite its inability to break a few things. In some ways it reminds me of Azumarill in its prime so I could definitely see this in S rank.
The only thing stopping Sableye from being S rank is how prepared the metagame is for it (TG Manaphy and SD Talon being particularly common), but even so, if we're judging viability by how much a Pokemon can bring to a team and how these outweigh its flaws then Sableye is definitely S rank, sure a few things take advantage of it but the amount of stuff you don't have to worry about by putting it on your team and the amount of release it brings upon teambuilding in general is just phenomenal. I've tried building stall without MSableye and though it's definitely possible, you just have to cover so much more stuff and end up wasting teamslots. Also it's like, the most centralizing Pokemon in the tier so yeah, not putting it in S seems odd given that it's the greatest deciding factor in viability atm, so many Pokemon dropped just because it exists.
Speaking of which... Gallade in A makes sense because Sableye :/ It's still really strong vs balanced teams though, but the metagame is really unkind to it atm, since the most common Stall build runs its 2 best counters (Sableye+Unaware Clefable), though I can see things being better for it in the future now it's not that great.
I don't agree with MLatias dropping at all though. Disregarding the Stored Power set, I've actually seen a set of Roost/Reflect Type/Defog/Psyshock or Dragon Pulse used as a hazard remover on Stall and it just does not die, it's an excellent defensive Pokemon which beats a ton of stuff, and RType is really good since it lets you 1v1 Ferro and even Bisharp if you carry Dragon Pulse. If you're going to drop it don't drop it because if Stored Power since that's not the only set and maybe not even the best set.
The problem with MPidgeot is that Tornadus-T kinda... exists. And yeah, MPidgeot's Hurricanes are more accurate and everything, but the ability to actually hit TTar and Heatran is huge and I would much rather have that than a 100% accurate STAB especially given how common Heatran is atm. Torn-T also has a lot of utility in Knock Off so I don't really see why I'd run Pidgeot.
also Manaphy is fantastic put it in A rank.
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I used plus one for skarm because it us considered a check, and will switch in. I used neutral for mbro to show that gyara have a really hard time setting up on it, which the post I quoted made it seem like it could.
They don't face different opponent, Zard and chomp was just two Pokemon with mediocre bulk it can't knock out, strengthening my "underwhelming power argument" all 3 dd sweepers face mega manectric and are at +0 after a setup turn and intimidate. I didn't feel the need to use other opponent as comparison, as all I wanted was to show their power in relative to each other.
oh, and dos tend run jolly to out speed base 145 megas.
Edit: yeah, it is not deadweight against stall, but neither is zard at alteria. Zard is a hard counter to mega sabley, and have to sheer power to fire of powerful hits even unboosted. Or, it could be sd and just massacre through the stall team! The problem with gyara is that it is so prone to being worn down, it is hard to consistently beat stall if you can barly afford taking a brave bird or seismic toss.
Both the other have reliable recovery, and aren't as prone to status (heal bell for alteria, no burns for zard) I really can't see dos in S, sorry
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May I ask what is the legitimate reason for Lanturn in C rank? I truly don't believe that you can put Lanturn at the same position as Infernape and seriously consider that they have an equal viability in regards to building and battling, even Dugtrio who currently sits at D rank. I remember it being hyped backed in XY for checking stuff like Thundurus and Raikou as far as I can tell but slow Volt-Turns and checks to these aren't exactly difficult to come by without being so passive to the point it looks bad on Balanced, terrible on Offense, and 0 justification to use this on Stall. Rather just see it drop or even unranked so that we can focus on stuff that is actually usable and not with a niche that sounds great on paper yet realistically doesn't apply in practice.
Nah Lanturn is still viable. It has a pretty limited niche but it performs that niche really well, and it can definitely be worth the teamslot if you want an answer to Electrics (particularly Magnezone, which is a very easy Pokemon to be weak to given that most anwsers to Electric types are fairies) that also fills the usual roles of a bulky water. It does admittedly receive some competition from Hippowdon, Quagsire and especially Gastrodon, but is less of a momentum-killer than these thanks to Volt Switch. Access to TWave is also pretty nice since it stops it from being setup fodder for a bunch of things, but one of the biggest selling points is Heal Bell which is an uncommon and useful move, and the combination of that and Volt Switch makes it a good fit on balanced teams as a supporter for offensive Pokemon like MMetagross or MScizor, especially since balanced teams tend to get worn down quite a bit by Volt Switching, and when Lanturn is on the team it pretty much prevents that from ever happening since the risk of it switching in and stealing all the momentum is too big. I don't really see how it's any worse or harder to justify placing on a team than Smeargle, Rotom-H or Mienshao (though tbh the latter should probably drop since MLopunny stole most of its niches). I guess it did lose out on beating Greninja which was one of the big things it handled but it's still good enough for at least C- imo.
btw why is Zygarde ranked C-? From experience, even as a bulky Ground/Dragon type, Garchomp performs better since its lesser bulk is mitigated by the fact that it has Rough Skin to wear down physical attackers, access to SR, and better coverage options. As a DDer it's just not viable unless I'm missing something, since it lacks the reliable recovery needed for a bulky DD set and the initial power to pull off offensive DD. I don't really see this thing's niche especially in a metagame that is a lot harsher to Dragon types in general.
btw why is Zygarde ranked C-? From experience, even as a bulky Ground/Dragon type, Garchomp performs better since its lesser bulk is mitigated by the fact that it has Rough Skin to wear down physical attackers, access to SR, and better coverage options. As a DDer it's just not viable unless I'm missing something, since it lacks the reliable recovery needed for a bulky DD set and the initial power to pull off offensive DD. I don't really see this thing's niche especially in a metagame that is a lot harsher to Dragon types in general.
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Zygarde has the advantage of having Coil, Glare, Dragon Dance and Extreme Speed, things that Garchomp wishes it had. It's honestly pretty bulky if you use it right as well. C- is fine for it, as it's probably one of the most viable users of Coil.
EDIT: Eww I just noticed how short and ugly this post looks I apologize
Muh boy Mega Audino ;_;7. Mega Audino is honestly not good, I know it's not, but it does deserve a ranking because of what I believe to be its prime niche over anything else: Normal-type Regenerator. The Regenerator pre-Mega and useful typing (to take on Steel-types a lot easier) are Mega Audino's saving grace. For example, it can switch into Heatran with ease, without worrying about Flash Cannon; it can switch into Mega Metagross's Meteor Mash without worry (12% chance to 2HKO if Adamant, otherwise 3HKO); it can take on Excadrill with much more ease; and so on. The inche is more than minuscule and it does face the case of being outclassed by Clefable, but so is Sylveon. Sylveon carves itself a niche through various means, so does Mega Audino, albeit a smaller niche than both. Could you explain how Venomoth is more likely to stay in D Rank than Mega Audino :?
Also, post a while ago about Audino: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-2359.3521602/page-91#post-5944721
Jellicent, on the other hand isn't half bad. I've also been trying this thing out and it certainly is worthy of D Rank, nothing more. It takes on Keldeo, its infamous role, and it still offers other utility by spreading burns and Taunt. Too tired to type up more for Jellicent, but it deserves to stay D Rank.
Sylveon isn't even comparable. It finds itself a niche in being completely different from Clefable and becoming a powerful, bulky wallbreaker that tears down the likes of Slowbro and Mega Sableye for Mega Gallade, Bisharp, Mega Lopunny etc.
In addition, what you're essentially arguing here is for base Audino rather than Mega Audino. I honestly can't foresee any situation in which regenerator would realistically help because it would require you to stay unevolved, meaning you're significantly less bulky, you have absolutely no offensive pressure and... well, you're just not using Mega Audino. You're proposing using a horrible Pokémon because it can heal off a bit of it's health and later become... a tiny bit less horrible.
I'm not fighting for Audino, I'm saying that it has a niche in having a base form that can effectively use its typing and Regenerator; Clefable doesn't have that. What I'm fighting for is for Mega Audino to stay in D Rank, and yes you are right in the last sentence it's a tiny bit less horrible, and I'm just hoping that is enough to save it in D Rank n.n!
Except I'm just not seeing that when what you're proposing is that it doesn't use the one thing that got it onto this list in the first place and instead tank hits in it's base form which iirc wasn't even that viable in NU and obviously not justifiable for OU, has no resistances and unlike Chansey or Blissey doesn't have stupidly high amounts of bulk to compensate for said lack of resists. Can you at least give an example of how this relatively unrealistic scenario works out? Audino tanks a hit which in OU is very unlikely to leave it with 33% or less, pulls off a status move and then is forced to switch out and recover, later coming back in as Mega Audino but at a loss of health it wouldn't have been at if it had just been saved for that point in the match? If Mega Audino had Regenerator definitely, but I'm really not seeing this at all when only it's base form has it.
Okay, Audino switches into a Scarfed Heatran and stomachs a hit, then it switches to take advantage of Regenerator. That's just one scenario, but now Heatran is forced out by Audino, which threatens to Thunder Wave it. Audino switches into Mega Metagross's Meteor Mash, Thunder Waves next turn after taking two Meteor Mashes. Now, Audino is in low health and switches out but has done its job effectively. Then, it's at ~40%, it comes into a weak coverage move / Ghost-type move from Gengar possibly, switches out and is ready to roll once again. I'll provide replays a bit later, but for now here are two scenarios.
I want to move M-Venusaur to A-. As a stall mega, it receives a ton of competition from M-Sableye and M-Slowbro to be viable. In addition, it's weak to Lando-T, which is worse now that they don't all run scarf anymore. Meanwhile, you have Breloon and Chesnaught, the former having a perfectly accurate sleep move and the latter provides spike support. Being immune to Toxic and resisting Electric and Fighting let it put in some work against Stall and Offense, there's too much competition for the mega slot on all playstyles to be ranked at the same level as some of the best ones. Not helping is that Fighting-types are on the decline outside of M-Lopunny, who beats it anyway.
I also want to move Celebi down to B+. As I said already, Fighting-types are on the decline, and while Celebi actually has a way to hit them super-effectively, Lopunny still hammers it. NastyPass has few setup opportunities, and the recipient is very predictable. It's torn for an EV spread, as it needs both speed and defenses to accomplish anything. For the role of a bulky grass, Chesnaught and Breloom have something much more useful (spikes and spore).
Lastly, Diancie should rise to C or C+. It is almost guaranteed to get rocks up each game. It also makes a wicked Screens setter, being able to provide crucial setup opportunities for its teammates. Its bulk is surprising, capable of tanking even water- and grass-type attacks. The only thing it really fears is Steel-type attacks, which are basically a OHKO. These are predictable, though, being basically restricted to Bisharp, Metagross and Scizor. It also packs a surprising punch, as rock and fairy have good super-effective coverage. It does run into 4MSS, as it wants to run rocks, screens, STABs and Toxic. Despite this, it is useful enough to be upgraded to C or C+.
I also want to move Celebi down to B+. As I said already, Fighting-types are on the decline, and while Celebi actually has a way to hit them super-effectively, Lopunny still hammers it. NastyPass has few setup opportunities, and the recipient is very predictable. It's torn for an EV spread, as it needs both speed and defenses to accomplish anything. For the role of a bulky grass, Chesnaught and Breloom have something much more useful (spikes and spore).
Lastly, Diancie should rise to C or C+. It is almost guaranteed to get rocks up each game. It also makes a wicked Screens setter, being able to provide crucial setup opportunities for its teammates. Its bulk is surprising, capable of tanking even water- and grass-type attacks. The only thing it really fears is Steel-type attacks, which are basically a OHKO. These are predictable, though, being basically restricted to Bisharp, Metagross and Scizor. It also packs a surprising punch, as rock and fairy have good super-effective coverage. It does run into 4MSS, as it wants to run rocks, screens, STABs and Toxic. Despite this, it is useful enough to be upgraded to C or C+.
I disagree with Mega Venusaur to A-. While it has competition as a mega on stall, it is still very good on semi-stall and balance (offensive sets). I see less birdspam on the ladder and many teams are not prepared for Mega Venusaur. I won't call it necessarily bad against Landorus-T, because 2 out of 3 are scarf and 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 111-132 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO Mega Venusaur takes on many common threats like Keldeo, Azumarill, DD Mega Altaria, Thundurus and Mega Lopunny. It deserves to stay A rank in my opinion
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