Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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You are nomming Mega Pinsir to drop as though it is supposed to 6-0 teams, which it is not; the point of a late-game sweeper is to wait until its checks and counters are weakened or removed, which is how Mega Pinsir is supposed to work. The rise in Weavile is indeed a pain, but Weavile is really frail and not that difficult to prepare for.
sorry dude but i was swept once by it so i thought it was a setup sweeper.


Not to make it a shitpost.

MMeta S rank.

Still alot of defensive pokemon,check metagross,but do not counter.With an Ice Punch it can deal with Hippo,Thunderpunch(rare but still Usable)deals a chunk of damage to skarm and slowbro,with a tough claws boosted.Zen headbutt Is there for R-wash,and some couple of other mons,presumably fighting types and meteor mash as stab.It suffers from 4mss a little bit but 4mss isnt an argument anymore,it is worst than a shitpost.It can Deal with 99.5% of the tier,barring gengar who can beat it.
 
I think dropping M-Metagross would make kinda sense. The prevelance of Hippowdon, TankChomp, Slowbro, Skarmory, Suicine, M-Scizor, and offensive threats such as Weavile, Raikou, M-Lopunny, M-Manectric, Talonflame, Bisharp, just limit it in the current metagame.

You've got Pursuit-trapping that it offers as well as very nice STABs and a great defensive typing as well as a great attack Stat, speed tier, some decent bulk which make it a difficult pokemon to take down but it's really limited in the current metagame.

The 4MSS hurts it a lot and I'm kinda torn atm but I definitely don't mind seeing it dropped to A+

Ok if we are considering metagross's best set which is dual stab hammer arm and grass knot, it beats everything u just listed 1v1 bar tank chomp skarmory scizor tflame and suicune. Then you consider that everything else u mentioned gets 2hkoed or ohkoe ed by one of its stabs, and then you consider tank chomp skarmory and slowbro get bopped by ice punch , thunder punch and grass knot respectively via an OHKo ,2hko on the switch, and another 2hko on the switch. Megagross obviously cant run all these coverage options on one Set but they show its versatility and its abillity to lure answers, so thats epitome of an S rank mon to me considering its various positive traits. 4MSS is not a good argument because megagross's viability isn't hurt because like i said its best set already provides almost perfect coverage on the metagame.
 
Yugi
You want to nominate Pinsir to B+?

Well come take a seat and watch why Pinsir is in no way B+ material. This thing is a monster when on a proper team that has good type synergy.



I have tons of other replays if these aren't good enough >_>
I feel like you're not using him correctly, or you haven't tried him, if you believe that Pinsir is on the same rank as dragonite/heracross/Mega Gallade.
 
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Quick note on the MMeta topic, it is worth noting that MMeta is one of the best offensive SR setters in the tier right now. It's 3 move coverage is actually pretty good and its speed and bulk allow it to beat out quite a few other common SR setters.

So yeah, MMeta should stay in S rank just because it's very versatile and effective at whatever it wants to do.

*edit*

Of Moose & Men Espeon should stay ranked because it has a niche as an anti-lead screens setter. It's offensive stats are weaker then Zam, it is true, but magic bounce allows it to setup screens without worrying about being taunt or hazard bait, which is something Zam can't do. It's offensive stats are good enough to avoid being total setup bait and it actually has a decent amount of bulk with screens:

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Espeon through Reflect: 229-270 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196 Atk Azelf Explosion vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Espeon through Reflect: 171-202 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Celticpride

To Elysium
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Im not really a fan of the hp fire set cause you either replace hammer arm/ EQ or grass knot/ thunder punch / ice punch coverage just to 2hko scizor and then lose to everything else so its not really effective overall or optimal. Megagross isnt sweeping the meta like it was several months ago because adaptions were made to it and it hasn't adapted back, like 24 spdef slowbro, increase in use of slowking, counter skarmory to stop hammer arm shenanigans, rise in usage bulky SD mega scizor, etc. All this means is that its not really ban worthy per say but this doesnt suddenly mean its ready to drop a sub rank.
I don't really buy this tbh. Shaping the meta and being the most viable in the meta are two different things. If fact, wouldn't the meta adapting to something make it less viable? iirc during XY some people thought Venusaur should rise from rank X to rank Y because it forced teams to carry certain types of coverage to break it. Well, teams adapted by carrying more Flying and Psychic coverage and that made Venu less viable than anything. Are teams carrying more Gross answers than they were ~3 months ago? Yes. Are those answers specifically for Metagross, in the vein of Arcanine-Mega Mawile? No. Tank Chomp, Slowking and the like are all viable outside of checking Gross. That's healthy adaptation imo. There's also threats in the A ranks that force the meta to adapt / force teams to carry specific answers, such as Lopunny, Char-Y, and Talonflame.

Mega Metagross, is the epitome of S rank. Simple as that. Yea, mega Scizor is around, but that is only one of about 3 of its counters. Saying well "mega scizor exists, so drop it", is quite frankly ignoring everything that makes megagross one of, if not the, best Pokemon in OU.
I mean, you can say Metagross only having "three counters" is an S rank trait, but that's ignoring a few things. Metagross has a number of common checks depending on what it carries for a fourth move. Also, Metagross' checks tend to be rather complimentary in nature. Most fat Grounds in general handle Metagross well and it's easy to pair it with a check that handles other Metagross sets. Slowbro-Garchomp for example diffuses most Metagross rather well. Chomper takes down the Grass Knot Gross and Slwobro checks the Ice Punch Gross. That's only an example and I'm sure there's more. This extends to a lot of non-S rank threats as well (ie using cores of complimentary checks to handle threats efficiently).

Ok if we are considering metagross's best set which is dual stab hammer arm and grass knot, it beats everything u just listed 1v1 bar tank chomp skarmory scizor tflame and suicune. Then you consider that everything else u mentioned gets 2hkoed or ohkoe ed by one of its stabs, and then you consider tank chomp skarmory and slowbro get bopped by ice punch , thunder punch and grass knot respectively via an OHKo ,2hko on the switch, and another 2hko on the switch. Megagross obviously cant run all these coverage options on one Set but they show its versatility and its abillity to lure answers, so thats epitome of an S rank mon to me considering its various positive traits. 4MSS is not a good argument because megagross's viability isn't hurt because like i said its best set already provides almost perfect coverage on the metagame.
I think this is ignoring how offensive checks actually work. You won't really find an offensive check to Gross that can switch into every move because that really doesn't exist lol. For example Raikou may not be able to stomach every move Metagross can throw at it, but Specs w/ Shadow Ball does a rather nice job handling Metagross especially when paired Scarf Lando-T. Most offensive checks really only need to be able to switch into an offensive STAB move and Metagross' STABs aren't that spammable compared to say Char-X.

That's the real issue with Metagross imo. It has to rely on non-STAB moves more than one would like, and an over-reliance on non-STAB moves makes it that much easier to switch into. Also, I think the rise of Bullet Punch Metagross and Pursuit Metagross make it easier to switch into defensively (the utility those kinds of sets provide outweighs the extra coverage).

So yeah I'm not sure if Metagross should drop or not, but I think the discussion is pretty even really. Gross may be a theoretical monster but I think in practice it's a little more manageable now.
 
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The whole "M-Meta to A+" thing is ridiculous to my eyes. yeah, he may be more prepared-for now, but he can still get around his checks and counters fairly easily with a few team-dependent coverage moves. plus, he has like four different sets, excellent typing, etc. he can be one of the best fairy checks around, and if he gets the m-mash boost, you're in trouble. plus, he needs minimal support to get a sweep, and can set up pretty easily against a large number of OU pokes. I personally think that it's going to take something more substantial to make him drop-worthy. also, I was considering nomming base Scisor Vengeance417. he's pretty great in this meta
 
If a mod reads this you can add m-metagross to discussion point on the post stated in op. Please and thanks.
 
M-Metagross might not be as threatening as when it was suspected tested, but not much changed since it was tested
Bulky Chomp and Hippo are getting alot of usage, but honestly None of them are real "checks"
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 159-187 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 272-320 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Mega scizor is def a mega gross check and the hp fire set is def viable but if u think about it... its AoA set has only one mon thats a real hard counter and thats pretty **** good for any mon especially one with mega metagrosses offensive stats and movepool. Its dual stats (zen and meteor mash) are both extremely powerful AND if that wasnt enough Gross can also run BP a priority move..
The Metagame has shifty since gross was tested but not to the degree that its not threatening.... In practice its more manageable then at the time it was tested, but its AoA set is MORE then deadly enough to keep this thing S rank,110 speed and near perfect coverage with dual stabs boosted by tough claws, am I missing something?(for those of u who consider chomp a hard counter it gets worn down easily and doesn't really like taking 40 damage on a switch in)

Note: Those "low power stats" are boasted by tough claws which makes them pretty powerful....

And honestly Mega zard x (and maybe mega alt) are s plus worthy mons on how easy they sweep teams and wall shit they're pretty broken....
 
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Yugi
You want to nominate Pinsir to B+?

Well come take a seat and watch why Pinsir is in no way B+ material. This thing is a monster when on a proper team that has good type synergy.



I have tons of other replays if these aren't good enough >_>
I feel like you're not using him correctly, or you haven't tried him, if you believe that Pinsir is on the same rank as dragonite/heracross/Mega Gallade.
Ive watched 2 replays and the others i am once im getting my fav chocolate home,and i really tried using him,but i couldnt use him,so yeah it must be because i didnt use him correctly.
 
I don't really buy this tbh. Shaping the meta and being the most viable in the meta are two different things. If fact, wouldn't the meta adapting to something make it less viable? iirc during XY some people thought Venusaur should rise from rank X to rank Y because it forced teams to carry certain types of coverage to break it. Well, teams adapted by carrying more Flying and Psychic coverage and that made Venu less viable than anything. Are teams carrying more Gross answers than they were ~3 months ago? Yes. Are those answers specifically for Metagross, in the vein of Arcanine-Mega Mawile? No. Tank Chomp, Slowking and the like are all viable outside of checking Gross. That's healthy adaptation imo. There's also threats in the A ranks that force the meta to adapt / force teams to carry specific answers, such as Lopunny, Char-Y, and Talonflame.


I mean, you can say Metagross only having "three counters" is an S rank trait, but that's ignoring a few things. Metagross has a number of common checks depending on what it carries for a fourth move. Also, Metagross' checks tend to be rather complimentary in nature. Most fat Grounds in general handle Metagross well and it's easy to pair it with a check that handles other Metagross sets. Slowbro-Garchomp for example diffuses most Metagross rather well. Chomper takes down the Grass Knot Gross and Slwobro checks the Ice Punch Gross. That's only an example and I'm sure there's more. This extends to a lot of non-S rank threats as well (ie using cores of complimentary checks to handle threats efficiently).


I think this is ignoring how offensive checks actually work. You won't really find an offensive check to Gross that can switch into every move because that really doesn't exist lol. For example Raikou may not be able to stomach every move Metagross can throw at it, but Specs w/ Shadow Ball does a rather nice job handling Metagross especially when paired Scarf Lando-T. Most offensive checks really only need to be able to switch into an offensive STAB move and Metagross' STABs aren't that spammable compared to say Char-X.

That's the real issue with Metagross imo. It has to rely on non-STAB moves more than one would like, and an over-reliance on non-STAB moves makes it that much easier to switch into. Also, I think the rise of Bullet Punch Metagross and Pursuit Metagross make it easier to switch into defensively (the utility those kinds of sets provide outweighs the extra coverage).



So yeah I'm not sure if Metagross should drop or not, but I think the discussion is pretty even really. Gross may be a theoretical monster but I think in practice it's a little more manageable now.

Well i first of all i never said metagross has 3 counters, because it has only one in mega scizor, and if people overhype the hidden power fire set enough i guess mega scizor isnt a "counter". Secondly, megagross was suspected several months ago ,and we all know why it was suspected and it barely escaped, so i didnt need to repeat in detail the traits that make mega gross really good aside from the "oh no it only has one true counter in all of OU* argument which obviously would separate it from something like hyrdeigon who is several ranks below and also has "no counters". last i checked its still oras, so that confirms no new mons have been added. So where did these new checks and counters come from for megagross ? Right ,they were always there. Thirdly, megagross has a coverage move that hits every single one of them. See if u look at mega altlaria its checks include ferrothorn heatran megagross jirachi and scizor. All of these can be bopped on a Ddance 3 attacks set after some chip damage with fire blast EQ and return. That leaves mega venusaur and possibly bulky talon flame as the only counters. Even then mega altaria tends to want to run roost, so that limits its coverage and it still at the end of the day is walled by mega venu. Megagross does have a slightly wider array of things that wall it compared to mega alt and doesn't have a 4 move move combo that beats every single thing for it, but the S rank set listed in the most viable sets thread has the best overall coverage but still comes short of beating some threats. Like i said, then the adaptions came. 24 spdef slowbro avoids 2hko from grass knot. Counter skarm obviously became mandatory cause otherwise u lose to gross, but it has always been a thing before gross was even introduced in oras. Bulky mega scizor becomes more popular even though it was always there to begin with. These adaptions arent obscure like arcanine was for mawile or 3 rocky helmet users on every team for mega kanga but thats when the light bulb clicks and u realize that thats why mega mawile and kanga are banned and while megagross is here still as an S rank that now people want to drop to A+. Being S rank doesnt neccesarily mean that you are TOO good for the metagame, it just means you are among the best mons in the metagame. This is why we dont auto ban everything that is S rank. Like is clefable broken because its S rank? no u can be S rank if you are just among the best at your role, but not neccesarily broken.

Megagross cant be in the same rank as mega scizor , something who shares simialir checks like skarmory and bulky chomp. Then there is keldeo who is also pretty linear and relies on scald burns and relatively weak hidden powers to beat a checks and counter list thats even larger than megagross's. at least megagross can say run ice punch to hit bulky chomp and gliscor and like thunder punch to 2hko skarm on the switch while mega scizor completely sacks momentum without u turn.


The offensive checks you listed are what they are checks, not reliable by any means, switching out is an option for every single mon in the game unless there is a trapping ability in play. So megagross switches out of raikou then raikou doesn't switch in to zen headbutt. prediction goes both ways, and its not reliable. the only valid ones are the ones i listed in the previous posts. megagross dual stabs however are not as spammable as something like zard x because psychic steel is walled by steelSo yea megagross relies on hammer arm/ EQ and other misceallenous coverage to hit the rest until u realize that it either can ohko the targets or outspeed 2hko (in the case of ferro). The only problem is the speed drop leaves megagross vulnerable of course.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 300-354 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Then you realize something similar can be said about mega altaria whose dragon fairy typing is walled by the same things, so it also relies on non stab coverage moves to beat checks and counters. and then u also realize that while charx has better offensive coverage with his stabs than both mega alt and gross but it often gets cut short by SR, spikes, and that nasty flare blitz recoil.

The standard set for gross still leaves u walled by skarmory bulky chomp jirachi slowking victini scizor and a few other things i think in all OU. Which is a point to make , but considering that megagross puts in work against virtually everything else, u have to weigh how much the positives outweigh the negatives. And i think its still an S rank worthy mon, because even if u consider the case that he cannot run all those lure moves in one set, then how are some of the things one sub rank below it who dont even have the luxury of running lure moves for most of their answers (like mega scizor vS bulky chomp) are somehow on the same level? I simply think that megagross is probably the 3rd best mon in ou and that char x and mega alt are stronger S ranks, but no one said the S ranks have to all be equal to each other in prowess, ( i think clefable is the weaksest S rank) and its not like megagross is that far behind.
 
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Honestly if any mon should be demoted its clefable.... Its gotten much easier to deal with and steel types are ALL over the meta, Even with a boost clefable is honestly still pretty weak and has average stats... example of its brutal psychical bulk is getting 3 hit koed against a garchomp with no attack investment
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Honestly clefable is realllly broken in theory with fairy typing and magic guard, but has become MUCH easier to handle with all the steel types running around and clefable has NOTHING for heatran unless its running focus blast.....
Clef doesn't deserve to be the only non mega in s rank and gets forced out by ALOT of mons and while clef can play many roles nicely (cm sweeper,unaware wish passer,lo lure) none of them are really S rank worthy and put clefable on the same level as zard x mega alt or mega gross, which is the incredible high standard that we are holding s rank mons to and clefable doesnt fit that....

In practice many things hold clefable back, from its average stats to even crits (setting up so much leaves u vulnerable to crits) and heatran is a HUUUGE pain to clefable overall, this is still a great mon but just not on the level as mega gross mega zard x or mega alt who are dominate against all types of teams (ho,balanced,stall)Clefable gets forced out to much to be a s rank mon
 
Clefable is just the best balance breaker in the game since it doesn't give a fuck on any of its "counters" in those teams. It just klicks TWave on inswitching stuff like Heatran, Mega-Venusaur, etc. and when it comes in next time it just sweeps. More offensive Steels such as Bisharp and Mega Metagross doesn't like it to get TWave either. Replays like this World Cup Battle between denissss and xray should say everything: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-71103. The thing is u have just no disadvantages with clutching CM Clefable on ur team. And it also gives u a switchin for Scald and other annoying Status moves ur team doesn't want to tank.

The Unaware Set is a pretty good fit for Stall Teams because it's a good Cleric which can stop Setup-Sweepers such as Manaphy, Mega Altaria etc.
 
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Ohmygosh! Here's another brutal example of Clefable being 3HKO with fully invested Chomp!

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now lets show its Special bulk! Mega Alakazam has 175 SpA sooo

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

To be more serious what'd you expect? Quite actually that good considering its a neutral hit. What makes Clefable so good is that it has recovery, excellent abilities, CM, and a lot of other factors I'm to lazy to list. Many pokemon in the rankings are more often than not completly walled by Clefable if they don't have a SE move. That gives it many great opportunity costs to easily setup and sweep teams that can't hit hard enough.

Clefable does fit the Standard of an S mon as before they changed the format it was "A mon that can wall a significant portion of the Metagame or Sweep effortlessly (something like that)" Clefable does both of those jobs quite nicely despite not being a mega.
Clefable can be a liability in battles however with how much its forced out... its a great mon that can set up on a large portion of the metagame but its just not on the level as mega gross alt or zard..... ORAS is the ost competitive tier we had in awhile and clefable is more in the keldeo range then the zard x range..... if u run twave then you lose coverage so steel types force u out even more, if u try to set up you can be liable for a crit with how long it takes to sweep (clefable needs a decent amount of boasting to get its power up) clefable fit perfectly in the old s rank but not in the NEW s rank where the reqs are MUCH stricter


Not even bringing up the fact of how it stops all momentum on almost all of its sets (ex:if u twave mega gross then u have to switch out on it and something takes a hit)

RN its only set close to s rank is of course the magic guard sweeping set, which stops all momentum for your team and gets forced out easily by a good player, the meta has shifted where steels heatrans talonflames zard x etc are all OVER and this does not work with clefable...
 
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p2

Banned deucer.
Clefable is a liability on teams?

I don't think I've ever ever seen a single matchup where Clefable is useless. It's easily the best non mega mon in the tier and just shits on all its counters like Mega Venusaur or Heatran by Twaving them and using them as setup bait when it comes back in. Clefable can do anything you need it to; need a rock setter that can counter Lopunny and cripple literally every switchin that isn't a ground or electric type? Clefable. need one of the best wincons in the tier? Clefable. Need something that can counter a bunch of setup sweepers? Clefable. Clefable is never a liability and its sheer versatility is unmatched in OU, it's definitely the best non mega mon in the tier. Keep it in S.
 
Not even bringing up the fact of how it stops all momentum...
Which is probably good for you because Clef does not inherently sap momentum like Chansey, Alomomola, or other defensive mons. Clef is one of the few mons where you won't know exactly what it's carrying even within the context provided by team preview, and this alone is a huge deal.

Clef has a set for every meta; recently T-Wave Clef came into fashion and will probably go out again when something else becomes popular. I'm not overstating it too much by saying that Clef's variety is almost a metagame unto itself.
 
The thing about Clefable is that it is forced out by a lot of stuff ngl but its like it has so much utility and versatility. An example is i was just battling with a friend yesterday who was using some interesting sets. But my megagross got bopped by a babiri berry clefable with counter lol. Not saying that thats a common set or even a good one but it proves the point. I think that its CM magic guard set is really the S rank set, because it has so much utility options ranging from healing wish to the annoying thunder wave to focus blast to flame thrower. ITs impossible to passively wear it down and it has a godly typing to abuse it with. Its stats leave much to be desired but i always feel like when i use and face clefable it always has just enough bulk to take the hits i need it to for the team. ITs great check to the electric types too and i think that its really S rank for being the best glue mon more than anything else. ITs not on the level of the 3 other S ranks who boast an even better typing in some cases for their roles like mega altaria , the ridiculous power of charx's flare blitz and the insane bulk and great speed megagross has with 145 base attack. But its like the most annoying utility mon to deal with, so it think it deserves S if we allot S rank slots for mons who serve that role.
 
Well, to be fair, Clefable has actual offensive presence. You have to generate momentum in order to lose it, and arguably the biggest strike against Chansey is her inability to do that.
 
Well, to be fair, Clefable has actual offensive presence. You have to generate momentum in order to lose it, and arguably the biggest strike against Chansey is her inability to do that.
Chansey can threaten out a pretty good variety of special attackers with t-wave and/or s-toss. Anytime you are forcing an opponent to swap out, you are technically "generating momentum". Granted, chansey isn't threatening a 2hko or ohko on anything anytime soon, but it is in fact capable of generating momentum in it's own way.

#devilsadvocateswag
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
What does magnezone trap/cripple that gothitelle can't? Magnezone's pretty useless, oftan a liability in a match where the opponent does not have a steel type. It's slow, timid's not that power and its forced to run a scarf. I just fail to see why its ranked -A for a niche that's done better by Goth. Goth can also decimate stall alone, while Magnezone is often useless and it still can't trap Heatran
 
What does magnezone trap/cripple that gothitelle can't? Magnezone's pretty useless, oftan a liability in a match where the opponent does not have a steel type. It's slow, timid's not that power and its forced to run a scarf. I just fail to see why its ranked -A for a niche that's done better by Goth. Goth can also decimate stall alone, while Magnezone is often useless and it still can't trap Heatran
Well. For one thing it actually beats steels.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Wasn't this argument the reason why Victini was B+ in the first place? I mean sure V-Create hits like a truck, but then Victini is forced to switch out. Unfortunately, it's made even worse by the fact that it has a shitty typing which leaves it weak to all entry hazards and Pursuit, which OHKOes it even without drops or boosts. There's also the rise of TankChomp with shits on Victini unless it's a lure set with Glaciate. Also, it's base 100 speed isn't the greatest, and while you can say it patches that up with Scarf, it's basically into either V-Create, which forces it out, Bolt Strike, which does nothing to Grounds, and U-Turn, which leaves it weak to even unboosted Pursuits and takes damage from Rocky Helmet. And then it's hard to come in thanks to once again its bad typing which leaves it weak to SR. Even with its good movepool and power, it's just so bad defensively and has meh speed that B+ is more than fine for it.
Base 100 Speed is pretty sweet considering its damage output. It's decently fast for a wallbreaker while not being frail.

Regardless I don't agree with a rise either for the other reasons you mentioned.

What does magnezone trap/cripple that gothitelle can't? Magnezone's pretty useless, oftan a liability in a match where the opponent does not have a steel type. It's slow, timid's not that power and its forced to run a scarf. I just fail to see why its ranked -A for a niche that's done better by Goth. Goth can also decimate stall alone, while Magnezone is often useless and it still can't trap Heatran
Magnezone is not weak (it hits harder than Thundurus) and is not worthless when there's nothing on the opponent's team to trap, neither of which Goth can boast. Its typing and bulk give it a bunch of switch-in opportunities so it can Volt Switch and it's fast enough with Scarf to threaten some stuff like Mega Diancie.

It can also trap Heatran if it really wanted to by running HP Ground, but it's risky to do so for obvious reasons.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Well. For one thing it actually beats steels.
What? Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory to name a few are all killed by Gothitelle trick + rest.
Base 100 Speed is pretty sweet considering its damage output. It's decently fast for a wallbreaker while not being frail.

Regardless I don't agree with a rise either for the other reasons you mentioned.


Magnezone is not weak (it hits harder than Thundurus) and is not worthless when there's nothing on the opponent's team to trap, neither of which Goth can boast. Its typing and bulk give it a bunch of switch-in opportunities so it can Volt Switch and it's fast enough with Scarf to threaten some stuff like Mega Diancie.

It can also trap Heatran if it really wanted to by running HP Ground, but it's risky to do so for obvious reasons.
Magnezone can't switch moves when such a speed tier is relevant, also landorus and Garchomp are usually used for a free switch in. Diancie carries protect most of the time so it can easily scout magnezone moves.

HP ground can't kill heatran while lava plume should ohko, Gothitelle traps Heatran and kills it
 

TPP

White Knight
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Isn't that what a RKiller is? Kill something then gtfo? The comment about Pursuit OHKOing it is also false as Pursuit from Scarftar only 2HKOes ignoring entry hazards which is an outside damage boost. Also with the argument about being prone to all entry hazards, many pokemon are prone to all hazards but still widely used. TankChomp shits on it? It shits on a lot of other physical attackers for example but not ones complaining about that (usually). So many mons are weak to SR but they've got support don't they from Defog and RS? And the Rocky Helmet argument means that any physical attack is crippled too. A lot of your argument was something that applies to so many mons in the tier that it can't singularly applying only to Victini. Again as a RKiller it's supposed to come in and RK or clean up AFTER checks are gone or in other words whatever keeps it from spamming a specific move.

You forget that it has Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Grass Knot and other moves to get past certain mons as well which gives it a fair amount of unpredictability.

What about Cobalion! :3
While it is true that Pursuit won't 1HKO, Victini will have around 10% or less when you switch out, meaning it won't be able to switch back in if there are any spikes or Stealth Rock. Also, Victini's defenses go down after V-Create, meaning Pursuit will get the 1HKO. The way he talked about Garchomp was how it is able to check/counter Victini, and even though Glaciate is a nice move to use, it won't get the 1HKO (does about 50-55%) and you'll be locked into it as well. Victini is no doubt powerful, but V-Create slows you down, so it's more like a 1 shot attempt every time, and being a fire/psychic type doesn't help it if it has to constantly switch in. I don't think it should rise/fall and it's fine in B+.

On a side note, that replay doesn't prove much because there's nothing special about getting a para and then a crit -_-
 
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