Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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I don't want to talk about BP too much because I have little experience with it.

Moving on, I think Infernape could move down based on how its niche compares with other B-/C+ mons. It's more easily exploitable on its defensive sets than other B- mons. Its well of variety is shallow compared to Toxicroak and Scizor because its offensive objectives have so much overlap with Victini, Entei, CharX and its defensive/support set relies to an extent on forcing switches based on the assumption that Nape is an offensive variant/has coverage. It's a lot like Alo in a support role; it's good, but it really does need a fifth slot to provide enough support to make it generally useful.

I agree with a magneton rise. The speed rise is useful enough to be situationally useful; Magneton's speed with a scarf is tolerable when Zone's can be frustrating.
 
Exactly, Mega Latios is essentially a better Latios. The opportunity cost for using it is huge but to what extent should that affect its placement? You have to take its abilities into account, it's a direct upgrade to an A+ Pokemon with the downside of using a Mega slot, and I don't think D-rank reflects that.

This is completely different from Lando and Nidos. Nidos were hopelessly outclassed, Mega Latios is actually better than Latios.
Not neccesarily.

252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

VS:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-328 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While I'm not saying Mega Latios is bad, life orb Latios hits infinitesimally harder without using up the mega slot. Opportunity cost should affect placement, though. Take the top tier threats, the 3 megas in S have a large opportunity cost, but their marginal return is very high compared to the other megas, so the opportunity cost is worth it. Clefable may not have as much marginal return, but its opportunity cost is low, with it able to be slapped on a wide variety of stall and balance teams.

It's not a direct upgrade, but it has more of a niche in being a bulky defogger/calm mind user.
 
Small update for BP stuff with small reasoning that I'm going to change in the OP after I type this up.

Smeargle- Is going to D. So before you sit behind your computers in your skype chat crying in anger with your friends about this like we all do in this day and age, let's not jump on the bandwagon of shitting up mons you and your friends have never used in a relevant capacity or even any sort of capacity to make a comment on. TDK agrees that Smeargle has more niches than Shuckle overall the problem this niche as Sticky Webber kind of blows is cause it's frail as shit. I myself have been using a Smeargle hazard lead with Healing Wish, Magic Coat, Spikes, Stealth Rock on a Hyper Offensive team that is used as an anti-lead for stuff like Taunt leads such as Azelf for example. It has enough notable uses to maintain itself in D because it can use this and sits at high enough speed tier to provide these teams, Smeargle outside of BP is used on Offense no other point in using it outside of that setting, a way to hinder slower balance while providing team dependent traits due to its ability to have almost any move it wants.

Gorebyss- Is going unranked. Out of all the waters we have it's not even on par to the majority of the E rank mons at this point in terms of utility and warranting a team slot. There's not a whole lot to say when you can't even hit an E rank criteria for a rank that's pretty loose already.

Espeon - Is going unranked. The team doesn't care if it's unranked or E, granted more towards unranked, but even the screens set and the fact it stops rocks by having Magic Bounce is a pretty garbage trait. It's main usefulness was its deadliness after having multiple boosts, now that isn't the case. If you have an undying love for Espeon, which of course someone would people wanted Sylveon in A- one time anything is possible, pm me some extremely solid reasons as to why it should be E when considering the pros and cons of the other E rank stuff. If you comment here on it I'm just gonna delete it.

Edit: Going to D. Take a wild guess who proposed it there lol.

Scolipede - Stays where it's at. Holy shit you guys underestimate speed boost passing by itself and its cleaning capabilities. It didn't move up in the first place for the whole Iron Defense thing anyways.

Venomoth - Is going unranked. Lol if I have to explain this my advice would be to start playing OU.

That's all. Discussion point is still the stuff Henry has nommed prior to everyone crying about BP and making 10 comments on it as if we would've missed the elegant bold that legitimizes your point even further n_n. Happy discussing.
Gonna guess Henry, but anyway I wanna add on here that Scolipede still has an amazing lead set. Running Protect, Spikes, TSpikes, BatonPass is still great. It can dodge taunts with Protect and B-Pass out. It really doesn't lose much, since the SD/ID sets weren't amazing to be honest, it really got there through its lead sets and the LO clean-up sets.

To make sure this isn't a shitpost, I agree with Magneton to B-. It's Choice Scarf Set is really useful on DragMag teams, since common threats to DragMag like Tornadus-T and Weavile are beaten by it (Magnezone can't do this). While the bulk and SpA loss is kinda saddening, it still works amazingly.

Reuniclus should stay where it is. It has two amazing abilities (Magic Guard, Regenerator) and a good SpA stat with acceptable bulk. Running Magic Guard allows you to dodge passive damage, making it a good fit on Sand Teams or teams that has lack of Hazard Control + no LO recoil, while also allowing it to be a good set-up sweeper with CM. A set that most people ignore is that it can run a bulky pivot set with Assault Vest or Leftovers. With Regenerator and high base SpA, it can invest a bit more in bulk functioning similar to Conkeldurr's AV set except it succeeds at checking many common Special Attackers like Char-Y, Keldeo and others.

Gonna abstain on most of the others. I do wanna refer you back to my posts a few pages back on Infernape if you want my opinion on Infernape.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
EDIT: Crap, two of these replays don't have Rotom but I forgot which
7 and 11.

Ha.

Also it wouldn't have been hard to check yourself when you did your edit. ._.

Edit to not be complete shitpost:
Keep Rotom-W where it is. It's not the most amazing thing, but it's splashable and a good glue mon. Teams without stuff like Celebi get really annoyed by its Will-O and Volt Switch spam, while Scarf can catch people off guard because of how uncommon it is and allows for clutch Trick crippling. It'll always put in some work regardless of what your opponent brought which is A-worthy to me. Won't cry over it in Skype chats if it gets dropped though.
 
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I, for what it's worth, fully stand behind Smeargle and Scolipede staying ranked. Scolipede is a monster late game, baton passing was just its most useful niche. With Life Orb, it hits hard as shit, factor in speed boost every turn and you can have some serious trouble, let it set up a Swords Dance and it only gets worse from there. It's not the greatest Pokemon in OU, but to say it's useless, or even terrible in this meta is just absolutely absurd. It's a pretty good mon, and I think too many are selling it short. Smeargle I can already see being a controversial topic, but remember it had a niche prior to Geomancy BP, surprise, it still has that niche. Now, it's not as great as it was before, with the grass buff, and a few other things, but it's still capable of being a pretty decent lead for offensive teams. It's ability to learn all moves is huge, and something that we can't deny being very useful in OU. It's far from great, but it can be very useful in the right hands.

As far as Espeon, I don't agree with it staying, it's honestly pretty bad. Alakazam hits harder is faster, and is cooler looking (an important part of viability ranking), (insert magic bounce mega) magic bounces better, the only thing it really has going for it is the fact that it isn't a mega. However, most teams that don't like hazards at all, tend to have a mega with magic bounce. I just don't think espeon is very good, or even decent. I guess it can set up screens, but I honestly can't see it doing much more than that. But, someone clearly knows better than me, so, I digress.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Usage =/= Viability

Just so this isn't a one liner, I support Serperior moving up to A and Keldeo up to S.

Serperior just pressures teams so easily and quickly with Leaf Storm and has a really solid speed tier that screws over the 110s. Its capable of screwing over its checks and counters with its item choice or move choice - Coba Berry + HP Rock shits on Birds, Glare screws over fast mons like Weavile, Torn-T and scarfers. HP Ground breaks Heatran etc. It hits so hard at +2, not even bulky resists like MGross want to switch in on it.

Onto Keldeo, fuck this thing, it's really annoying in the teambuilder because its actually quite difficult to account for Specs, Scarf, SubCM, and lesser used sets like RestTalk or LO Taunt. Specs is retarded to switch into, Scarf outspeeds everything and SubCM turns some defensive answers into complete liabilities. It just picks it counters by running any Hidden Power it wants and even then, a load of mons don't want to take a Scald burn. I don't like using RNG as a point, but Keldeo has so much freedom in OU to spam Scald because of its ability to force switches and it outspeeds a lot of the meta.
 
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And why? When good players (who usually play in WCoP) use a Pokemon often the Pokemon has to be very good in the Meta. Pokemon who aren't very good in the Meta atm have low usage.
Usage may be an indicator of viability, but it can also be a short-term trend. Please show us more specifics if you want a move down.
 
Mainly because of the rise of Mega-Scizor which is one of the savest counters for it. Around 3 month ago where Scizors usage wasn't thaaaat high many teams weren't able to switch into Mega-Metagross since stuff like Slowbro and Hippowdown can be 2hkot by Grass Knot with some prio damage. Another reason is the rise of Bulky Garchomp which forces 29% damage on Metagross whenever it switches into an attack so Metagross is easily worn down.
 
The fuck? Dude do you seriously want Mega Metagross to go down to A+ with the shittiest reasoning ever possible and expect to not get flak for it? It's been S the WHOLE TIME these 'mons have been coming up and literally NOTHING has changed for it, even for the new rises in usage and trends it hasn't had many things changing for it, it still can turn things into total mush and break down defensive cores very easily. It can still run Ice Punch to kill Garchomp, HP Fire is a rare lure that is actually useful on Mega Meta, and with Rocks up hardly any Scizor variants can not get 2HKOed, besides the rare max Special Defense Scizor. Literally it can lure 90% of its checks and kill them with a coverage move, to figure out what to switch into this thing you NEED to scout its moveset, and it has an effective Hone Claws and Rock Polish set that does good against stall and offense teams, respectively. Yeah Mega Metagross isn't as spammed as it once was but that is in NO WAY an indicator towards viability for the 'mon as nothing has changed for it in the last few months that the 'mons you mentioned have been used high af, and it's always been as good as it once was. The only moves you're completely sure that Mega Metagross is running is Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, the other 2 moves in its moveset are lures for the checks and counters it has.

MMeta stays in S. Please.
 

Base Scizor to B+

I understand that there's an opportunity cost in running base Scizor in that you could be running its mega (which I won't argue that Mega Scizor is flat out amazing right now) but I feel normal
Scizor has plenty of merit in ORAS.

It can run a multitude of sets, whether it be banded, defensive Defog or the newly popular SD Life Orb set, which can be an absolute bitch to deal with for a plethora of different playstyles. Being able to outpace most Heatran sets and OHKO with +2 Life Orb Superpower is phenomenal for it.

Running base Scizor also means you can run another mega evolution of your choice, and many of the megas in ORAS OU appreciate having Scizor as a teammate. For instance, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados, Mega Gallade and Mega Sableye love having a teammate that can act as an offensive answer to opposing Fairy types (Altaria also likes a Weavile answer, which Scizor easily fits the bill).
 
If u run HP Fire u lack Grass Knot, Hammer Arm or Zen Headbutt. Without Grass Knot u're walled by by Hippo, Slowbro and other stuff like that. Without Hammer Arm Steel Tran and Skarm wall u easily and without Zen Headbutt Rotom-W, Chomper, Manaphy, Gyarados etc. can be very annoying.

Albacore: Metagross also has a regular form which is viable in OU (for example with AV as a bulky tank) and that form advects in there while Alt doesn't have a regular viable form. I'm pretty sure the regular form of Metagross makes like 30% or more of its usage.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Realistically the Mega Meta to A+ nomination isn't as ridiculous as I once believed it to be. I think it's the weakest of the S ranks at the moment and its checks are everywhere.

That said, Mega Scizor can still lose to hax (moreso than with other mons' counters which generally just lose to crits because of Meteor Mash's attack raise chance), Skarmory loses if it's not Rocky Helmet or Counter and Tank Chomp is mostly pretty easy to predict and take advantage of. Mega Metagross still puts a pretty strong limiter on teambuilding and can still put in work a lot of the time. It can be a pretty solid team player too with Pursuit support or taking out Tank Chomp in one hit (Ice Punch OHKOs all but the bulkiest). It also beats BD Azumarill and DD Altaria at +1 which are big threats in the current metagame. Sub PUP sets up on Bisharp which is one of its most common checks. So the reality is while the metagame is somewhat unfavorable to it, this thing is still a monster and realistically puts in work in most matches even if the opponent is prepared for it.
 
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Okay. Let's get re-establish something because apparently this was difficult to understand. If you are going to post about having a Pokemon moved up or down, have something written explain why you believe it's rank should be changed. I don't mind the Mega Metagross to A+ nomination, but you posting:

I don't think many explanations are needed there...Alone the low WCoP usage should show that this thing isn't a top threat anymore (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9NUEKYkeIgagczV4g_E/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true).
or

na just move it down pls
Is not acceptable at all. Post coherently and intelligently or I will delete your posts. I don't care who you are, this applies to everyone. Thanks.


Edit: Since this is being brought up. I want this to be discussed for a while cuz it's worth having this conversation at this point in time. Just do it intelligently.
 
this is just a radical Nom.Pinsir-Mega to B+.

I know,this came out of the blue,but i think that Pinsir-Mega should go to B+.I know about the SD set,but its only priority is Quick Attack.ORAS isnt very nice to it(Looking at Mega Metagross),and RN there are alot of the meta that outspeeds it,Megagross resists and takes any priority that it dishes,and with Alot of faster Priorities,or if it is switching into something that it thinks that it can take it down,and misspredicts 90% of the time it is going to lose.Alot of scarfers and megas outspeed it and atleast 2hko it,and Mega aerodactyl is a very good matchup againts it because it outspeeds and can take down the pinsir,and i know i know that you wouldnt stay in Mega aero,predictions are real.It is severely outclassed by Scizor as a better bug type and a better defensive typing in general,getting really damaged by Thundurus with Prankster T-wave,and mega sableye can take care of this pokemon,its 4x weakness to rocks hinders it alot,it loves the matchup of steels,but the 2 powerful steels today are magnezone and heatran,and they both love scarfs,and are able to take care Pinsir with their typing STABs,and Talonflame can take care of this pokemon,mega diancie can take care of this mon and i know that this thing can 2hko 87% of the tier and the mega altaria can do alot of damage to him with a pixilate boosted Return,while it can take care of return with its natural bulk.With Rocks weavile can get a faster stab super effective priority againts Pinsir and take it out.
 
this is just a radical Nom.Pinsir-Mega to B+.

I know,this came out of the blue,but i think that Pinsir-Mega should go to B+.I know about the SD set,but its only priority is Quick Attack.ORAS isnt very nice to it(Looking at Mega Metagross),and RN there are alot of the meta that outspeeds it,Megagross resists and takes any priority that it dishes,and with Alot of faster Priorities,or if it is switching into something that it thinks that it can take it down,and misspredicts 90% of the time it is going to lose.Alot of scarfers and megas outspeed it and atleast 2hko it,and Mega aerodactyl is a very good matchup againts it because it outspeeds and can take down the pinsir,and i know i know that you wouldnt stay in Mega aero,predictions are real.It is severely outclassed by Scizor as a better bug type and a better defensive typing in general,getting really damaged by Thundurus with Prankster T-wave,and mega sableye can take care of this pokemon,its 4x weakness to rocks hinders it alot,it loves the matchup of steels,but the 2 powerful steels today are magnezone and heatran,and they both love scarfs,and are able to take care Pinsir with their typing STABs,and Talonflame can take care of this pokemon,mega diancie can take care of this mon and i know that this thing can 2hko 87% of the tier and the mega altaria can do alot of damage to him with a pixilate boosted Return,while it can take care of return with its natural bulk.With Rocks weavile can get a faster stab super effective priority againts Pinsir and take it out.
You are nomming Mega Pinsir to drop as though it is supposed to 6-0 teams, which it is not; the point of a late-game sweeper is to wait until its checks and counters are weakened or removed, which is how Mega Pinsir is supposed to work. The rise in Weavile is indeed a pain, but Weavile is really frail and not that difficult to prepare for.
 
Mega Mawile wasn't used all that often when it was available, so let's drop it.

It's been rammed into the ground, but usage is not the same as viability.

Mega Metagross, is the epitome of S rank. Simple as that. Yea, mega Scizor is around, but that is only one of about 3 of its counters. Saying well "mega scizor exists, so drop it", is quite frankly ignoring everything that makes megagross one of, if not the, best Pokemon in OU.

As I said, MegaGross is easily what an S rank mon should be. It should never, and I do mean never, drop. Unless "Z" brings us something that redefines S, in which case we'll likely ban it and megagross will return. Point is, MegaGross should remain S. It's powerful as all hell, Fast as shit, and bulky as hell. It's only downside being its lackluster base form. Other than that, it is absolutely amazing, and if you really think Mega Scizor's usage does anything but give it even more reason of being S I've gotta wonder what you think an S Mon should be. I mean, mZor beats 3 out of the 4 S ranks, should we have an S rank of only ZardX? Of course not. As I've said, among others, usage =/= viability, so that leaves you with nothing fighting for it to drop. Sorry bud.
 
ok so from what i read here is that ur only argument is that metagross has gud stats oo
Lol. . .

Sigh. . .

High BP moves boosted even further by Tough Claws in conjunction with a humongous base 145 atk, the best benchmark speed stat in OU at the moment, bulk that makes Skarmory shutter, coverage that hits any and everything it needs to, capable of breaking through it's "counters" that aren't mZor with the right coverage, access to priority, access to Speed boosting moves, a pseudo boosting move in Meteor Mash or, if you're really desperate, power up punch, as well as great offensive and defensive typing.

Yea, all I'm saying is it has "gud stats". . .
 
This Megagross business was already discussed several pages back and there is absolutely no reason at all for it to drop. The reasoning that it saw less usage in recent tours doesnt mean much to its viability although they are related when u actually consider how it works when IT IS used. Or should we move heatran up to S rank because its the most used mon in OU? The lesser usage of metagross is just due to the increase in usage of the checks that ALWAYS existed which shows how the metagame has been forced to adapt to this huge threat.

Im not really a fan of the hp fire set cause you either replace hammer arm/ EQ or grass knot/ thunder punch / ice punch coverage just to 2hko scizor and then lose to everything else so its not really effective overall or optimal. Megagross isnt sweeping the meta like it was several months ago because adaptions were made to it and it hasn't adapted back, like 24 spdef slowbro, increase in use of slowking, counter skarmory to stop hammer arm shenanigans, rise in usage bulky SD mega scizor, etc. All this means is that its not really ban worthy per say but this doesnt suddenly mean its ready to drop a sub rank. I think metagross's best set is dual stab hammer arm and grass knot, and that even struggles with jirachi and victini. Bulky chomp wears it down quickly but it has ice punch for that, but runnning ice punch in it self is niche. But bar those annoyances megagross still thrives really well in this meta and 2hkos or ohkos a majority of the meta with just its stabs, while having good speed and bulk to back it up. This thing lives a sucker punch from bisharp so its not even a whole lot easy to revenge kill although the speed drop from hammer arm sucks. This is not even considering its lesser used sets such as rock polish which can be a very effective late game sweeper, and the pursuit support it can offer to teammates. Megagross should remain S, and i see it as the 3rd best mon in OU behind mega alt and zard x.
 
I think dropping M-Metagross would make kinda sense. The prevelance of Hippowdon, TankChomp, Slowbro, Skarmory, Suicine, M-Scizor, and offensive threats such as Weavile, Raikou, M-Lopunny, M-Manectric, Talonflame, Bisharp, just limit it in the current metagame.

You've got Pursuit-trapping that it offers as well as very nice STABs and a great defensive typing as well as a great attack Stat, speed tier, some decent bulk which make it a difficult pokemon to take down but it's really limited in the current metagame.

The 4MSS hurts it a lot and I'm kinda torn atm but I definitely don't mind seeing it dropped to A+
 
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