Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
I don't mean to stir the pot here, but why isn't heliolisk blacklisted anymore? Granted, it's getting really good in UU, but here in OU we have raikou and mega man (and even thundy-t) for volt switching shenanegins. All that coverage doesn't mean a ton with terrible physical bulk and 109 speed.Seriously, that's practically a death sentence for a 'speedy' offensive pokemon to not hit 110 or above like specs whimsicott huehuehue. Nitpicky, maybe, but I dunno. I just wanna be helpful. ;w;
On a more positive note, one guy I've been having fun with lately is krookodile. It's kind of like Lando-t because of 90ish (92 to be exact [or should I say 2 be exact {I'll stop}]) speed and potential to run defensive sets (with taunt, SR, etc.) utilizing intimidate, or neat scarf sets with pursuit trappy/moxie boosting stuff. Also, it doesn't die in one hit to most ice type attacks like lando, so you can afford to eat an HP ice from mega man or whatever the kids run these days. It's the lovechild of tyranitar and lando-T. With sunglasses. It's nothing spectacular, and I don't have replays because I'm a cartridge scrub, but I think krookodile deserves D rank.
I don't mean to stir the pot here, but why isn't heliolisk blacklisted anymore? Granted, it's getting really good in UU, but here in OU we have raikou and mega man (and even thundy-t) for volt switching shenanegins. All that coverage doesn't mean a ton with terrible physical bulk and 109 speed.Seriously, that's practically a death sentence for a 'speedy' offensive pokemon to not hit 110 or above like specs whimsicott huehuehue. Nitpicky, maybe, but I dunno. I just wanna be helpful. ;w;
On a more positive note, one guy I've been having fun with lately is krookodile. It's kind of like Lando-t because of 90ish (92 to be exact [or should I say 2 be exact {I'll stop}]) speed and potential to run defensive sets (with taunt, SR, etc.) utilizing intimidate, or neat scarf sets with pursuit trappy/moxie boosting stuff. Also, it doesn't die in one hit to most ice type attacks like lando, so you can afford to eat an HP ice from mega man or whatever the kids run these days. It's the lovechild of tyranitar and lando-T. With sunglasses. It's nothing spectacular, and I don't have replays because I'm a cartridge scrub, but I think krookodile deserves D rank.
ben asked me to unblacklist heliolisk so I did it, this was after seeing him use it by the way it's not like it just came out of the blue. As long as thread doesn't turn into absolute garbage it's ok but the moment it does expect it back there.
No opinion on Krookodile although I've seen McMeghan use it a good amount relatively well. I'm not too focused on that as of right now but I guess that's the heads up to say it isn't bad.
I don't mean to stir the pot here, but why isn't heliolisk blacklisted anymore? Granted, it's getting really good in UU, but here in OU we have raikou and mega man (and even thundy-t) for volt switching shenanegins. All that coverage doesn't mean a ton with terrible physical bulk and 109 speed.Seriously, that's practically a death sentence for a 'speedy' offensive pokemon to not hit 110 or above like specs whimsicott huehuehue. Nitpicky, maybe, but I dunno. I just wanna be helpful. ;w;
On a more positive note, one guy I've been having fun with lately is krookodile. It's kind of like Lando-t because of 90ish (92 to be exact [or should I say 2 be exact {I'll stop}]) speed and potential to run defensive sets (with taunt, SR, etc.) utilizing intimidate, or neat scarf sets with pursuit trappy/moxie boosting stuff. Also, it doesn't die in one hit to most ice type attacks like lando, so you can afford to eat an HP ice from mega man or whatever the kids run these days. It's the lovechild of tyranitar and lando-T. With sunglasses. It's nothing spectacular, and I don't have replays because I'm a cartridge scrub, but I think krookodile deserves D rank.
Heliolisk has a small niche, although I don't believe that it's valuable enough for a place on the rankings, it's not actually completely outclassed. Dry Skin lets it absorb Scalds, it can 2HKO most electrics, bulky grass types, and grounds with specs Hyper Voice or Surf (bar AV Raikou which can't hurt much it back). Yes, its speed is middling and its bulk awful, but it does have a small niche in being able to break common electric switch-ins.
Basically I think what's keeping Tornadus out of A+ is hurricane's shaky accuracy. However, I really don't think that this is even that big of a problem. The chance of hurricane missing is basically balanced out by the chance of it confusing and the confusion can actually be pretty clutch. It's just super hard to kill thanks to regenerator and u-turn and being one of the best offensive checks to landorus-i in this meta is definitely something pretty big. Most of it's common answers just get worn down super fast by hazards + hurricane + u-turn to the point that they can't even reliably switch in anymore and some other fat walls like chansey are just crippled by knock off and taken out by superpower if weakened.
Torn-T is a really nice pivot and has decent offensive presence with a bunch of cool coverage options such as heat wave to hit fat steels, iron tail to lure in mega diancie and icy wind for bulky grounds and the 4x ice weak mons everywhere in the tier. The argument of Hurricane being unreliable isn't exactly fair considering that it also has a chance to confuse which is really nice which pretty much balances out the chance of it missing.
edit: also pretty funny how during the update no mons dropped a single rank
Keep in mind that this is directed at a bunch of people, not just firehusky, I just chose to quote this post in particular.
Concerning Tornadus-T, I believe Hurricane's accuracy is in fact a very viable reason to keep it in A. Think of Keldeo, who resides in S, mostly because of Scald's chance of burning checks and counters to wear them down. Scald has a 30% chance to burn them and Hurricane has a 30% chance to miss. We cannot ignore these secondary effects and dismiss them as "hax" because they are often a very important part of each match and frankly speaking 30% is not much of a hax. Now I understand that a crucial difference between Keldeo and Tornadus-T is that Tornadus-T does not have to resort to "luck" to get past would-be counters because it has other moves it would rather be using, unlike Kelde who mainly spams Scald. For example, it has Knock Off and Superpower for Blissey and Tyranitar while also having U-Turn to maintain momentum. However, consider that these moves are
1) coming off a neutral base 100 attack without significant investment most of the time
2) possibly unboosted if Tornadus-T opts for an Assault Vest over a Life Orb
3) not even STABs
In other words, they are very weak but do the trick against certain pokemon. What if these certain pokemon aren't on the opponents team? Ah, there's the catch. We cannot forget pokemon Tornadus-T would like to smack with Hurricane such as Keldeo, Garchomp, Charizard X, Hippowdown, Gliscor, Clefable, Azumarill, Landorus T, Landorus I, Manaphy, Breloom, Mega Altaria, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, Slyveon, Mega Sableye, Talonflame, [insert any pokemon not resistant fo flying that isn't weak to Knock Off or Superpower]. Sure, glossing over this list you might notice may of these pokemon are weak to Icy Wind, which might not seem like a bad option until you remembr that it is a base 55 attack and won't do any meaningful damage unless it's 4x effective. Also don't forget that thanks to its high speed Tornadu-T will often be used as a revenge killer. Can you guess which move it would most like to use? Hurricane is the an extremely important move for Tornadus-T to have and those saying they use the other moves more are exagerrating or too afraid to use Hurricane and miss (which is of course decently likely). Saying Hurriane isn't important for Tornadus-T is like saying Earthquake isn't important for Scarf Landorus-T. Finally, that confusion arguement is borderline irrelevant. Hurricane has a 70% chance to hit and a 30% chance to confuse. In reality it has a 21% chance to confuse. Confusion has a 50% chance of making the opponent hurt itself. That brings it to 10.5%. Therefore, Hurricane's confusion chance is only really gonna help 10.5% of the time, which in no way makes up for the 30% chance to miss. Hurricane is an importat move for Tornadus-T and its shaky accuracy must be taken into account and no dismissed when considering raising it to A.
Also I noticed that no pokemon dropped as well in the last update. Honestly, I think we have a major rank inflation issue on this forum, which is caused by a few things. Firstly, many of us feel strongly about nomming a pokemon up moreso than down. Therefore, the maority of nominations involve raises and not drops. Secondly, I believe too many people look at the rankings by the definitions provided. With this in mind, it becomes significantly easier to justify a high rank such as A or A+ fo a pokemon. In reality, how a pokemon is relative to those in ranks near it should be the bigger question we ask ourselves, not if it fits the definition of the given rank. Because of this the A rank as a whole and even now the upper B ranks have become way too inflated. We have pokemon in A rank which are clearly more viable than others in the same rank, and either justify this apparent contradiction by saying "X" is high A rank while "Y" is low A rank or by moving "X" up (rarely by moving "Y" down) which makes the problem worse. I mean look at the top 3 ranks, A, A+, and S. We have Thirty- Eight (or 37?) pokemon in the top 3 ranks! That makes absolutely no sense to me! Keep in mind S rank only has 4 so we have 33-34 pokemon in two ranks alone. While very useful, this thread hardly differentiates the differences between nearly the top 40 threats of the OU metagame which is completely absurd to me.
I haven't seen anyone bring this up yet, but it was mentioned in the OP, so:
Mega Pidgeot to B-/B
I've been using Bird Jesus a lot lately, and I definitely think it deserves a rise. It does face competition from Tornadus-T as an offensive specially based flying type; however, I think the gap reflected in their current rankings is far too large. Both have good special attack, a fantastic speed tier, comparable bulk, and a weakness to stealth rock. Tornadus-T does have some advantages, like being able to run a Life Orb and having significantly better coverage options. Regenerator and a fighting resistance also help out Tornadus-T quite a bit, but Mega-Pidgeot does have some pretty notable advantages too. First of all, its Hurricane never misses, which is absolutely huge, because that 30% chance for a miss can really hurt Torn-T in a lot of scenarios. The effective higher chance for confusion is great too. Second, M-Pidgeot has access to Roost, which helps out with longevity, though I will admit it can still be somewhat frail. Third, Bird Jesus is able to boost its special attack with Work Up, which can really help it muscle past some of its checks. I do realize that Torn-T is also able to run AV sets, which contributes to its higher ranking, but I'd say its offensive sets are on par with Mega-Pidgeot.
In general, Mega-Pidgeot is able to perform well against most playstyles. The Work Up stall breaker set is fantastic against stall once phazers have been removed. WU + 2 Attacks + Utility sets destroy balance, and even sets without Work Up fare decently against balance. It's speed tier is also pretty damn good against offensive teams, and most offensive mons hate stomaching a Hurricane. M-Pidgeot does fall somewhat short in terms of coverage, being walled by Rock types, Heatran, and the blobs, but Flying is a fantastic offensive typing, and Heat Wave helps out against steels like M-Meta and Bisharp. Again, it is also somewhat frail, so its not really able to take many powerful hits. However, all in all, I think Mega-Pidgeot is a pretty good mon atm, and C+ is vastly underselling it.
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 247-292 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 286-338 (105.1 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 211-250 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 234-276 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 169-201 (56.5 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 360-428 (104.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 186-219 (50.9 - 60%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 211-250 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 294-346 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 142-168 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 101-119 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- 5.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-154 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
EDIT: Even from my short time on Smogon, I know its very fitting that Recreant was the first like on a post about Bird Jesus.
This dropped to B- because originally it was in B under the premise that it destroyed M-Sableye stall and in the end was over exaggerated even more so in a meta where the usage of its improved niche has become less relevant. It doesn't particularly do anything fantastic but has some ok niches in just maintaining its B- position for the time being. Most of the megas in B- fall under the same category of having these niches but either face a lot of competition in the case of Mega Tyranitar as a Dragon Dancer or is something where they're strong but need a decent amount of support to get it rolling. M-Houndoom fits the latter as it's not as self sufficient as individuals make it out to be and needs team-mates to accommodate basic trends that hinder its capabilities. It has minor ways around a check or two but just barely although it's usually enough to keep it one notch up above m-pidgeot whose problems are more obvious and necessitate more concrete support for M-Pidgeots checks in comparison to M-Houndooms. It's fine in B- for the time being.
Good but it's a team specific asset that's borderline B- but comes down to the fact that from an effectiveness standpoint it doesn't particularly suit the B- ranked category mons when you look at competition for mega slot, general splashability that it lacks along with Torn-T being in the tier who is much more easily splashable, and the fact its checks and counters are much more concrete than the B- ranked megas that are there. It's fine in C+ a case for B- would make more sense if its checks and counters decreased in viability and usage in the long run but not right now. It's one of the better C+ ranked mons but that's not necessarily the means to be a B- one though.
It should rise because its assets are much better than those that occupy C rank by a long shot, which are mons who have general selling points but nothing outstanding to really distinguish themselves. It's more suitable to the C+ ranked pokemon just by glancing at the ranks and realizing that although it has competition as a fire type in terms of what warrants a team slot, it's one of the few that can be both a consistent Bisharp and Weavile check in one package, which is sort of huge when many teams are susceptible to threats such as these two in the first place.
Mega Ampharos isn't of equal viability to Mega Pidgeot if we're speaking megas plain and simple. Mega Pidgeot has much more consistency as a mega just going off of its individual traits while Mega Ampharos provides general blanket checks to certain strong threats but will tend to be pressured by the cores associated around what it's suppose to check due to a lack of reliable recovery, the excessive amount of support required for sets such as Agility, and being prone to some common types in the tier all at once such as Fairy, Ground, Dragon, and Offensive Ice types. What it does can be solid but nothing outstanding and can be rather underwhelming in a variety of battles you'll come across. It's fine in C.
One of the better offensive fairy checks in the tier, a tier that can use more of these to circumvent the power of Fairy types such as M-Altaria along with having consistent priority for faster paced offense with pursuit capabilities and the ability to grab momentum through the use of U-turn. From a ranking position it's on par with those that occupy by the B+ ranked more so than the B ranked ones due to providing a bit more in one package.
Other stuff mentioned and what I think.
This shouldn't rise. Its niche so to speak requires that sand is being used and up in order to take advantage of this power. You have a ton of choices for megas to use, you have plenty of wall-breakers to use that won't even require a mega or if it's a mega doesn't require this extra amount of support that M-Garchomp needs. Sure it has Swords Dance to solidify its role as a wall-breaker but the whole Kyurem-B comparisons in regards to being a wall-breaker comes down to the fact that Kyurem-B is a wall-breaker straight from the start and not even a mega while not even necessitating a whole lot other than hazards off the field. Competition as a Pokemon in general is what should keep it at B- and the fact it's not a step above Mega Tyranitar anyways or is on par to the megas of the B rank category.
Overloaded Pokemon at times, serves as a blanket glue for teams but by no means is it on the level of the other A+ ranked Pokemon due to it being overworked, prone to a bunch of Stealth Rock users which makes Ferrothorns game plan of setting rocks at times somewhat shaky, while making itself annoying enough that fire coverage is ran to handle this and other steel types like Scizors. Tier is prepped for it and although its a consistent spike user it hasn't exactly improved much in the meta to warrant a raise.
Last stuff
Breloom I think just sort of hates the tier it's in right now and kind of needs a good amount of support in general to get the ball rolling as an offensive threat because of its relatively mediocre speed. Its niche in Spore is nice but I don't think it's a defining feature to where it should stay B+ along with its flaws. I'm not convinced that it's on par with threats that reside in B+ such as Terrakion, Dragonite, Diggersby, and Victini if we're talking about some offensive threats who have either fantastic wall-breaking powers or much more distinguishable traits that I feel warrant a team slot such as Dragonite being able to check Volcarona as one example. I feel as if Breloom is more suitable to the B rank category based on its low speed that can only be mitigated so much by Mach Punch and Rock tomb on technician set, frailty, and the fact that what it checks and provides aren't exactly very stellar when looking at what these B+ ranked mons provide.
Feraligatr was really hyped during its release and I think now that the hype has settled down it's sort of paved the way for me to realize how overrated this thing actually is. I'm only going to speak on its Dragon Dance set because I think Swords Dance is a bad set on it in general. It doesn't really provide a whole lot of beneficial aspects to a team other than having a dragon dancer that is kind of just outclassed by every other one barring it's not a mega. Out of all the water types in the tier it's hard for me to justify using this when I have so many other options of consistent water types that I know wont just fall behind based on matchup or at least have a secondary typing to provide some useful defensive utility. I wouldn't go as far to say that Feraligatr surpasses Heracross and Cobalion in effectiveness just from looking at it from a general ranking perspective and as such I think it's time to consider dropping this to a more appropriate C+ rank placement.
This dropped to B- because originally it was in B under the premise that it destroyed M-Sableye stall and in the end was over exaggerated even more so in a meta where the usage of its improved niche has become less relevant. It doesn't particularly do anything fantastic but has some ok niches in just maintaining its B- position for the time being. Most of the megas in B- fall under the same category of having these niches but either face a lot of competition in the case of Mega Tyranitar as a Dragon Dancer or is something where they're strong but need a decent amount of support to get it rolling. M-Houndoom fits the latter as it's not as self sufficient as individuals make it out to be and needs team-mates to accommodate basic trends that hinder its capabilities. It has minor ways around a check or two but just barely although it's usually enough to keep it one notch up above m-pidgeot whose problems are more obvious and necessitate more concrete support for M-Pidgeots checks in comparison to M-Houndooms. It's fine in B- for the time being.
Good but it's a team specific asset that's borderline B- but comes down to the fact that from an effectiveness standpoint it doesn't particularly suit the B- ranked category mons when you look at competition for mega slot, general splashability that it lacks along with Torn-T being in the tier who is much more easily splashable, and the fact its checks and counters are much more concrete than the B- ranked megas that are there. It's fine in C+ a case for B- would make more sense if its checks and counters decreased in viability and usage in the long run but not right now. It's one of the better C+ ranked mons but that's not necessarily the means to be a B- one though.
It should rise because its assets are much better than those that occupy C rank by a long shot, which are mons who have general selling points but nothing outstanding to really distinguish themselves. It's more suitable to the C+ ranked pokemon just by glancing at the ranks and realizing that although it has competition as a fire type in terms of what warrants a team slot, it's one of the few that can be both a consistent Bisharp and Weavile check in one package, which is sort of huge when many teams are susceptible to threats such as these two in the first place.
Mega Ampharos isn't of equal viability to Mega Pidgeot if we're speaking megas plain and simple. Mega Pidgeot has much more consistency as a mega just going off of its individual traits while Mega Ampharos provides general blanket checks to certain strong threats but will tend to be pressured by the cores associated around what it's suppose to check due to a lack of reliable recovery, the excessive amount of support required for sets such as Agility, and being prone to some common types in the tier all at once such as Fairy, Ground, Dragon, and Offensive Ice types. What it does can be solid but nothing outstanding and can be rather underwhelming in a variety of battles you'll come across. It's fine in C.
One of the better offensive fairy checks in the tier, a tier that can use more of these to circumvent the power of Fairy types such as M-Altaria along with having consistent priority for faster paced offense with pursuit capabilities and the ability to grab momentum through the use of U-turn. From a ranking position it's on par with those that occupy by the B+ ranked more so than the B ranked ones due to providing a bit more in one package.
Other stuff mentioned and what I think.
This shouldn't rise. Its niche so to speak requires that sand is being used and up in order to take advantage of this power. You have a ton of choices for megas to use, you have plenty of wall-breakers to use that won't even require a mega or if it's a mega doesn't require this extra amount of support that M-Garchomp needs. Sure it has Swords Dance to solidify its role as a wall-breaker but the whole Kyurem-B comparisons in regards to being a wall-breaker comes down to the fact that Kyurem-B is a wall-breaker straight from the start and not even a mega while not even necessitating a whole lot other than hazards off the field. Competition as a Pokemon in general is what should keep it at B- and the fact it's not a step above Mega Tyranitar anyways or is on par to the megas of the B rank category.
Overloaded Pokemon at times, serves as a blanket glue for teams but by no means is it on the level of the other A+ ranked Pokemon due to it being overworked, prone to a bunch of Stealth Rock users which makes Ferrothorns game plan of setting rocks at times somewhat shaky, while making itself annoying enough that fire coverage is ran to handle this and other steel types like Scizors. Tier is prepped for it and although its a consistent spike user it hasn't exactly improved much in the meta to warrant a raise.
Last stuff
Breloom I think just sort of hates the tier it's in right now and kind of needs a good amount of support in general to get the ball rolling as an offensive threat because of its relatively mediocre speed. Its niche in Spore is nice but I don't think it's a defining feature to where it should stay B+ along with its flaws. I'm not convinced that it's on par with threats that reside in B+ such as Terrakion, Dragonite, Diggersby, and Victini if we're talking about some offensive threats who have either fantastic wall-breaking powers or much more distinguishable traits that I feel warrant a team slot such as Dragonite being able to check Volcarona as one example. I feel as if Breloom is more suitable to the B rank category based on its low speed that can only be mitigated so much by Mach Punch and Rock tomb on technician set, frailty, and the fact that what it checks and provides aren't exactly very stellar when looking at what these B+ ranked mons provide.
Feraligatr was really hyped during its release and I think now that the hype has settled down it's sort of paved the way for me to realize how overrated this thing actually is. I'm only going to speak on its Dragon Dance set because I think Swords Dance is a bad set on it in general. It doesn't really provide a whole lot of beneficial aspects to a team other than having a dragon dancer that is kind of just outclassed by every other one barring it's not a mega. Out of all the water types in the tier it's hard for me to justify using this when I have so many other options of consistent water types that I know wont just fall behind based on matchup or at least have a secondary typing to provide some useful defensive utility. I wouldn't go as far to say that Feraligatr surpasses Heracross and Cobalion in effectiveness just from looking at it from a general ranking perspective and as such I think it's time to consider dropping this to a more appropriate C+ rank placement.
Just gonna defend my nom real quick in a few sentences cuz i gotta sleep :[]
I don't like how you capitalize on mega garchomp needing support. Sure, my calcs of it steamrolling everything slower than it in the tier were in sand, but trust me, +2 with 170 base attack and 120/100 base power STABs really doesn't need support to do its job. it LIKES it, but sand is by no means necessary.
I'm not really sure what you mean by kyu-b having immediate power either, are you suggesting that mega garchomp DOESN'T have immediate power? Dude this thing OHKO's 240 hp azumarill with nothing but an adamant eq under sand, what part of that isn't immediate power.
I think you're having some tunnel vision on the optimal conditions and forgetting that while mega garchomp does best under them, its far from total shit without them. It doesn't require ANY support, and can do just as well as other wallbreakers even without sand. It's just a whole other beast under it.
As far as competition vs. opposing wallbreakers goes in general, its kinda tough to find the level of immediate power mons like char-y and mchomp have without needing a mega slot in the first place. For such immediate power, your only options really are megas or band/specs, and each has their own drawbacks. Competition is a valid argument keeping mchomp down, but you can't act like mchomp is the only one with downsides to using it.
And before this turns into an essay god i also wanna address this:
You have a ton of choices for megas to use, you have plenty of wall-breakers to use that won't even require a mega or if it's a mega doesn't require this extra amount of support that M-Garchomp needs.
I mean yeah there are choices, but mega garchomp, in terms of raw power, is WAY stronger than all of your other choices. You really can't compare mchomp to other wallbreakers because no other wallbreaker has zero hard answers to a single set.
Regarding the comparison to megatar, that's just a reason to move megatar up, not keep mchomp down ;]
I'm not really sure what you mean by kyu-b having immediate power either, are you suggesting that mega garchomp DOESN'T have immediate power? Dude this thing OHKO's 240 hp azumarill with nothing but an adamant eq under sand, what part of that isn't immediate power.
The sand part. Azumarill switches on Tyranitar and forces it out and you're definitely not switching Garchomp into that. Mega Garchomp can revenge kill non-Belly Drum Azumarill at most, and by definition a revenge kill is the opposite of immediate power.
The sand part. Azumarill switches on Tyranitar and forces it out and you're definitely not switching Garchomp into that. Mega Garchomp can revenge kill non-Belly Drum Azumarill at most, and by definition a revenge kill is the opposite of immediate power.
you don't really understand what it means to have immediate power do you? immediate power means that there is no need for the specific mon to use a stat boosting move (SD in the case of m-chomp) for it to hit hard. the idea of use m-chomp is for it's ability to wallbreak on both spectrums and m-chomp definitely has immediate power to back it up. it just needs a fair bit of support to get it going.
The sand part. Azumarill switches on Tyranitar and forces it out and you're definitely not switching Garchomp into that. Mega Garchomp can revenge kill non-Belly Drum Azumarill at most, and by definition a revenge kill is the opposite of immediate power.
MegaChomp lives a +6 Jet with ease so it can revenge a BD set too. Also idk how switching into said Fairy type is relevant, he simply used that calc to show its power.
Just gonna defend my nom real quick in a few sentences cuz i gotta sleep :[]
I don't like how you capitalize on mega garchomp needing support. Sure, my calcs of it steamrolling everything slower than it in the tier were in sand, but trust me, +2 with 170 base attack and 120/100 base power STABs really doesn't need support to do its job. it LIKES it, but sand is by no means necessary.
I'm not really sure what you mean by kyu-b having immediate power either, are you suggesting that mega garchomp DOESN'T have immediate power? Dude this thing OHKO's 240 hp azumarill with nothing but an adamant eq under sand, what part of that isn't immediate power.
I think you're having some tunnel vision on the optimal conditions and forgetting that while mega garchomp does best under them, its far from total shit without them. It doesn't require ANY support, and can do just as well as other wallbreakers even without sand. It's just a whole other beast under it.
As far as competition vs. opposing wallbreakers goes in general, its kinda tough to find the level of immediate power mons like char-y and mchomp have without needing a mega slot in the first place. For such immediate power, your only options really are megas or band/specs, and each has their own drawbacks. Competition is a valid argument keeping mchomp down, but you can't act like mchomp is the only one with downsides to using it.
And before this turns into an essay god i also wanna address this:
I mean yeah there are choices, but mega garchomp, in terms of raw power, is WAY stronger than all of your other choices. You really can't compare mchomp to other wallbreakers because no other wallbreaker has zero hard answers to a single set.
Regarding the comparison to megatar, that's just a reason to move megatar up, not keep mchomp down ;]
The necessity to have sand which is what a lot of what M-Garchomps selling point is to be this crazy wall-breaker, is indeed not immediate power. The competition vs. opposing wall-breakers comes down to the fact that it's a mega that is realistically designed for a specific team archetype and you put emphasis on this archetype that it breaks, stall, that just by the fact we're considering dropping Chansey goes to show has lost viability. So how exactly is M-Garchomp breaking down these defensive cores some beneficial trait that somehow changed overtime to where a rise is reasonable? Why would I use this when I can incorporate another mega who has a much better match-up against the entirety of the tier or by not even clicking a move I've already invalidated a portion of the tier with it being on the team, such as M-Sableye? This aspect of revenge killing M-Garchomp is more common than you're implying when the tier revolves around bulky offensive builds who exceed M-Garchomps speed tier and as such it isn't exactly burdened by the presence of M-Garchomp what so ever.
I put the comparison there because Mega Tyranitar shouldn't rise either. There's plenty of options of mega choices to where options like Mega Houndoom, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Garchomp start to become borderline luxury in the fact that there team-building constraint isn't as huge in the metagame to where it's going to necessitate some improved threat control to realistically handle them but still have some solid power and presence behind them. If stall and these big fat defensive cores were more common then great maybe it would have some more merit but they aren't simply for the fact they have to contend trying to handle so many things at once and as such the tier hasn't improved in M-Garchomps favor to where it should rise.
I say Mega-Bird Jesus should move up, It's an offensive threat is many different ways, having the ability (get it) to abuse No Guard with hurricane, heat wave, he'll even hyper beam, with Mega Pidgeot having access Work-Up, roost, hell, he even gets stuff like u-turn and (I think it gets it) Brave Bird, have the power to run a Mixed work up set, our a pure special one. Although Our savior is weak to Hazards in Stealth Rock it still has HIGH power, as some as the calcs have said above(being in school on a phone smogoning SUCKS) being able to have offensive powers and moves that can be switched (mainly the HPs) and it can have offensive pressure on any 'Mon... So I say Mega Jesus to: B/B-
(I will add more later, so don't yell at me)
On Clefable, Clefable is on of my favorite Pokemon to use, more than the Latis or in my case Venomoth. When I use Clefable, it is used in SOOOOOOO many ways, Stored Power cleaner, wall, wall again, bisharp check, Et Cetera, Et Cetera. But what I've seen its it is that it has so many things it can do, as in wall serperior with unaware, absorb status with Magic guard, or even sweep entire teams if you play right... But I am pro S rank for Clefble, but with the lingering fear I have about Aegislash giving OU the middle finger and coming back, I'll have to say A+ For Clefable, because if Aegislash comes back, WE. ARE. FUCKED.
Lucario is my Bae, about as much as Torterra so I disagree with B-. Lucario has something a lot of other fighting types don't... Both Special and Physical sets, having access to both Nasty Plot and Swords Dance it can be used special OR physical depending on your team's needs! Plus it goes well with Pokemon like Mega-Pidgeot heck, even the Landoruseseseses. I believe the Jackal should be at least B/B+
*BZZRT* Im on the wall about this, i love Zapdos for its different sets, since it can be used for Tailwind, Volt-Turn, Defog, hell ive seen it with Choice Specs and Life Orb. I believe its spot should be in B-, although B could be a good place in it, i dont think it has that much usage among plays, since they mostly run to things like Talonflame, or even my previously mentioned Bird Jesus for some of those things, but Zapdos has it's Niches, so i believe it should stay B-
Yes, Garchomp time! Now on garchomp moving, im totally pro-upping for this 'Mon Chomp's a great mon for any job you need it, whether it be Stealth Rock setting, a Sweeper (for mega) a Wall Breaker, or just a reliable mon for any job you need it for! with access to rough skin, rocky helmet can be an option, it can also run focus sash, life orb, its mega stone, hell, ive seen it with choice band or scarf. the few things that cripple it aren't all that common (besides fairys) but Ice is the main ting that cripples this amazing pokemon is usable on alot of teams, and needs not a lot of team support, possibly a fire type, but that is the only thing it needs! i say A+ is great for Chomp.
Mega Pidgeot for S B- Rank is alright
sorry i had to put this here, recreant is punishing me for accidentally making a bad joke
B/B+ is too high for Mega Bird Jesus, Our Lord and Saviour, imo. B- is fine, and even there it's sort of stretching it. AM said it earlier, competition for mega slot, splashability, Tornadus-T exists (I know they're different, but sort of similar too, if you get what I mean .__.) However, I think B- is a good place for it to be. Work Up sets are a terror against balance and stall, though the latter is basically non-existent, while AoA sets are decent against offense due to its high Speed + No Guard + confusing shenanigans. It has decent utility, not as much as Tornadus-T, in the form of U-turn. I mean, if Tornadus-T moves up, Mega Pidgeot too.
Just gonna defend my nom real quick in a few sentences cuz i gotta sleep :[]
I don't like how you capitalize on mega garchomp needing support. Sure, my calcs of it steamrolling everything slower than it in the tier were in sand, but trust me, +2 with 170 base attack and 120/100 base power STABs really doesn't need support to do its job. it LIKES it, but sand is by no means necessary.
I'm not really sure what you mean by kyu-b having immediate power either, are you suggesting that mega garchomp DOESN'T have immediate power? Dude this thing OHKO's 240 hp azumarill with nothing but an adamant eq under sand, what part of that isn't immediate power.
I think you're having some tunnel vision on the optimal conditions and forgetting that while mega garchomp does best under them, its far from total shit without them. It doesn't require ANY support, and can do just as well as other wallbreakers even without sand. It's just a whole other beast under it.
As far as competition vs. opposing wallbreakers goes in general, its kinda tough to find the level of immediate power mons like char-y and mchomp have without needing a mega slot in the first place. For such immediate power, your only options really are megas or band/specs, and each has their own drawbacks. Competition is a valid argument keeping mchomp down, but you can't act like mchomp is the only one with downsides to using it.
And before this turns into an essay god i also wanna address this:
I mean yeah there are choices, but mega garchomp, in terms of raw power, is WAY stronger than all of your other choices. You really can't compare mchomp to other wallbreakers because no other wallbreaker has zero hard answers to a single set.
Regarding the comparison to megatar, that's just a reason to move megatar up, not keep mchomp down ;]
Though I like Megachomp (and its viability will certainly rise of Aegislash is unbanned but that has not come to be yet so it doesn't matter), I feel like even though it is a massive wall breaker with Swords Dance it does not deserve a rise in the current meta, which has a distinct absence of the stall that Megachomp breaks. Right now an effective offensive threat has to either start at or over 110 speed, or else have a way to boost themselves above the 110 base speed Pokemon of the tier, either by using a speed boosting move or a priority attack. There are many wall breakers or stall breakers that can do Megachomp's job without a Mega slot. If you really want a Pokemon that messes up balance and stall, use Manaphy. Though Megachomp does hit incredibly hard and does a decent job at taking hits, the fact that it has 92 base speed hold it back from reaching its full potential. At the moment I do not think that Megachomp should rise, and neither should Megattar (and that pains me to say since I actually love Megattar).
I don't really have an opinion on Clefable going up to S or staying in A+, it's a bit like Keldeo a while ago, where it's clearly better than a lot of the A+ ranked Pokemon, but worse than all the S rank Pokemon.
Clefable really doesn't have a 'set' counter, it really depends on its set. It's been running random Thunderbolts, Ice Beams, even Knock Offs, just to bait in and deal with stuff like Talonflame, Gliscor and Gengar. I don't think I'll need to list out its positives, things like versatility, good bulk, checks tons of stuff, stellar typing + abilities, defines balance, etc. etc.
However, I wouldn't say Clefable deserves S. It kinda becomes overloaded in its role - Unaware sets are clerics, walls, pivots all at once, sometimes even cramming in Stealth Rock/Calm Mind etc. The rise of Steel-types such as Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor also don't help Clefable as well. Clefable also doesn't have the greatest bulk, it needs to live many attacks by the skin of its teeth, such as Thundurus's Thunderbolt, Latios's Psyshock, etc. Clefable stays in A+ imo
Would like to say that while Clefable has amazing abilities, its defensive stats are actually quite low compared to a lot of other things. 95/73/90 isn't all that flash and due to this Clef can't take neutral hits very well... it just doesn't have the sheer bulk of a Ferrothorn or a Hippowdon, which is often overlooked. Obviously it's a really versatile mon that works in almost any teams and can put in a lot of work, I'm not arguing with that, I'm just adding to what has already been said by others that its stats are quite low.
I think that due to this, it's living too many hits with very narrow margins. Thundurus's Thunderbolt, Landorus-T's Earthquake, Non-Band Azumarill's Play Rough, and it can't take things like Landorus's Earth Power, Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice, Mega Altaria's Return, Diggersby's Return, and so on.
Basically, it has to revenge wall (not sure what to actually call this, don't think it has a name) too many things to be S-Rank as a defensive Pokemon, so I say Clefable stay A+.
I use Clefable a lot, and it can never be an S rank mon imo. The Magic Guard set can't stop sweepers, which the Unaware set is so valuable for, but the Unaware set has a lot of unfortunate problems like Moonlight being a garbage healing move which has low PP and gets wrecked by weather, which is very common right now, particularly sand. WishTect is unreliable and can easily put you in nasty positions such as when you take a powerful neutral hit and then they switch to something like Exca as you Wish. You're then faced with risking a Swords Dance as you protect and if you switch out, your Clefable is now 2HKO'd by pretty much anything. In short, the arguably better ability it has comes with exploitable drawbacks (if it ever got Softboiled + Unaware, that would be awesome) but as it stands you're easy to pressure and wear down, and the Magic Guard set is decent but nothing particularly great, as you're going to be getting 1-2HKO'd by things like Altaria, SD Gliscor, and Scizor after a boost, meaning you can't counter or even emergency check them. The low stats are the obvious nail in the coffin. A+ is the highest Clefable can ever hope to be.
The necessity to have sand which is what a lot of what M-Garchomps selling point is to be this crazy wall-breaker, is indeed not immediate power. The competition vs. opposing wall-breakers comes down to the fact that it's a mega that is realistically designed for a specific team archetype and you put emphasis on this archetype that it breaks, stall, that just by the fact we're considering dropping Chansey goes to show has lost viability. So how exactly is M-Garchomp breaking down these defensive cores some beneficial trait that somehow changed overtime to where a rise is reasonable? Why would I use this when I can incorporate another mega who has a much better match-up against the entirety of the tier or by not even clicking a move I've already invalidated a portion of the tier with it being on the team, such as M-Sableye? This aspect of revenge killing M-Garchomp is more common than you're implying when the tier revolves around bulky offensive builds who exceed M-Garchomps speed tier and as such it isn't exactly burdened by the presence of M-Garchomp what so ever.
I put the comparison there because Mega Tyranitar shouldn't rise either. There's plenty of options of mega choices to where options like Mega Houndoom, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Garchomp start to become borderline luxury in the fact that there team-building constraint isn't as huge in the metagame to where it's going to necessitate some improved threat control to realistically handle them but still have some solid power and presence behind them. If stall and these big fat defensive cores were more common then great maybe it would have some more merit but they aren't simply for the fact they have to contend trying to handle so many things at once and as such the tier hasn't improved in M-Garchomps favor to where it should rise.
It's not so much that its performance has changed, its that I believe he's always been massively underrated. I could've made this nom back in xy and it really wouldn't have been any different.
As far as the revenge killing argument goes, you're also forgetting that nearly as much raw bulk as ferrothorn doesn't make that as easy as you think
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 280-330 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 252-300 (70.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 284-336 (79.5 - 94.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 291-343 (81.5 - 96%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 204-241 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 302-356 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 230-272 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 208-247 (58.2 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 177-211 (49.5 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 239-282 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 296-352 (82.9 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 186-219 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 268-316 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 211-250 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 298-355 (83.4 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 204-242 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sorry for the wall of text, but you can see the tier's strongest priority users (bisharp is even boosted lol) and relevant hard-hitters that are both faster than mchomp and don't have a super effective move vs it (and even some that do) and it's pretty much living all of them.
Specs hydro from keldeo? Dragon claw from char-x? Ice Punch from mega lopunny? Hp ice from mega man, raikou, or thundurus? You'd like to think these moves can reliably revenge kill the monster right? Not at fucking all.
inb4 "THESE CALCS SHOW MCHOMP AT FULL HEALTH AND VS OFFENSE THAT'S COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC"
Yeah, maybe these calcs are looking at optimal scenarios in which mchomp comes out unscathed vs offense, but don't we HAVE to look at it that way to assess any usability a pokemon has vs offense? We can't say that AV azu is useless vs offense because we assumed that it already took two specs scalds from keldeo, can we? No matter how "realistic" that situation is, it's a flawed way to look at a pokemon's performance.
You could very well pull up the same argument finch did to justify manaphy's performance vs offense: give it a free turn and even your "slow" wallbreaker will be getting a kill or two vs offense. Yeah, lati twins are prevalent and are easy+reliable ways to rk this thing, but you have to remember that almost every team with a mchomp will also have a ttar :] I fail to see how such a resilient and bulky monster isn't "burdening bulky offensive builds whatsoever."
There's plenty of options of mega choices to where options like Mega Houndoom, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Garchomp start to become borderline luxury in the fact that there team-building constraint isn't as huge in the metagame to where it's going to necessitate some improved threat control to realistically handle them but still have some solid power and presence behind them.
Honestly, that's half the reason to even use these babies: people think they have your threat under control because they have a blanket check. You may THINK you have mega houndoom checked with your cb azu/mega altaria and you confidently click play rough/frustration expecting a forced switch out, but you might be surprised when you eat a sludge bomb! You may THINK you have mega tyranitar checked, even at +1, with your keldeo, but you might be surprised when you get OHKO'd by a thunderpunch!
The fact that they're so "easy" to check is part of their beauty: it becomes very easy to pressure/lure the few checks people often use for them, making them all the more effective. They necessitate far more threat control to totally handle them than you think, and due to the nature of the metagame and the number of threats in it, it encourages us to "check" threats, not to "counter" them, even when building heavily defensive builds, because there's just way too much stuff to even try to counter. If you can run some cool lures and get rid of these common checks, then your lesser used megas are going to be performing on par with those in A ranks and shit. They just require a little bit of creativity and good teambuilding to put into effect.
inb4 "OH BUT OH SEE THERE U GO "WITH THE RIGHT PARTNERS" OMG IT REQUIRES SUPPORT MOVE IT DOWN"
every pokemon needs the right partners because its not covering everything by itself and lesser-used megas are no exception :I The higher up pokemon are only higher up because their checks are less common/easy to get rid of, as long as you can get rid of a pokemon's checks, then you're fine, no matter how low on the viability ranking they are. And honestly its easier to run lesser used megas sometimes knowing that "that ferro is definitely coming in to take this hp fire" and you can move on knowing that you're set.
If stall and these big fat defensive cores were more common then great maybe it would have some more merit but they aren't simply for the fact they have to contend trying to handle so many things at once and as such the tier hasn't improved in M-Garchomps favor to where it should rise.
So i think i kinda addressed this with the revenge killing argument but just to be thorough:
Mega garchomp isn't limited to steamrolling stall builds single-handedly because its bulky enough to the point where revenge killing without a super effective move is practically impossible, and even with them its not gauranteed. That's definitely enough to pressure bulky offense builds to the point where they're losing one or two pokemon atleast.
inb4 "THAT APPLIES TO PRACTICALLY EVERY POKEMON AFTER THE RIGHT BOOST"
well I bet that same pokemon can't also steamroll practically every stall team by itself :O
Ironically, bulky offense's best response is often kyu-b revenge killing, but even then, several kyu-b only run enough speed to outpace exca.
So yeah its bulky making it difficult to revenge kill, and its strong making it impossible to wall, and it doesn't require any support, its just a lot better with it.
as someone who has used Megachomp quite a bit, I completely agree with what srn is saying. Chomp doesn't need sand support. It doesn't. It likes it. It doesn't need it. Saying it needs it is like saying that zard y needs a secondary weather setter on its team so it can reset its sun every time it switches in. And we all know that isn't true. Granted TTar is a great teammate for it anyways, but the same applies for chomp lol so it's a moot point at best.
I'm not seeing how MegaChomp doesn't have immediate power, either. It hits harder than most things in the tier and has an ubers level Attack stat that is often + natured, and it's stabs are high BP. I mean even without a boost its 2HKOing a bunch of things with EQ, and that's outside of sand. Add in sr, and the list basically doubles. Even the things that aren't 2hkoed can't do anything other than spam recover because chomps damage output is so high that it prevents them from doing anything else. All this is w/o sand or an sd. Add in either, and nothing compares to its damage output bar a band/specs/ certain LO mons. I'm not gonna post a wall of calc because I'm on my phone, but do then yourselves. Yeah there might be a few things here and there that barely avoid a 2hko, but like I said they have to spam recover. Add in sand, and it's guaranteed.
Also remember that chomp is really fat and literally nothing outside of an ice beam, Draco, or outrage will OHKO it w/o a boost. I guarantee you. Chomp also resists sr so it has numerous switch in opportunities. Add in its decent speed and you have a balance breaker that's fat enough to force certain mons in so it can be revenge killed, like Latios or w/e (oh hey TTar!!!!!!!!). Also drill is a great partner to clean up the mess Js.
Stop underselling chomp. B- is underselling it. It has amazing power and loves the fat teams that are everywhere. The opportunity cost is a moot point because that literally applies to every other wallbreaker mega.
I have a comparison I'd like to make with Garchomp in terms of viability (not playstyle) in Mega Swampert, who is in B+.
Now, the first comparison that comes to mind for me is that both mons optimally will want to operate under a certain weather style (Sand and Rain, respectively). Swampert, however, is dependent on having Rain to put in the work expected of it, whereas for Garchomp, it's more like adding more bricks to the ton; Mega Garchomp can still wallbreak outside of sand to very good effect. What this entails is that Garchomp, while optimally played with them, doesn't require a Sand focused team the way Swampert needs to be on a Rain focused team.
The next thing that comes to mind is the role synergy for that weather. Swampert can more or less act as a second Kabutops for Rain, adding another fast hard-hitting Physical attacker in the vein of Gen 4 Double Dragon cores to overwhelm common checks. That said, while this compounds Rain's advantage against offense, it doesn't do too much to improve their match up with Stall, a playstyle meant to take these hits and wait out their weather. Garchomp, however, makes an excellent compliment to the common Sand members in T-Tar and Excadrill. Tyranitar can play support, removing a few specific problems like the Latis, while Garchomp serves the role of cracking walls wide open for Excadrill to sweep. Sand Rush Excadrill already gives a pretty good match-up vs Offense, while Garchomp brings something to improve against another playstyle by breaking defensive cores on Stall and Balance, improving what Sand can function well against compared to if he wasn't used.
And as old and insignificant as this may sound, I do consider the viability of Garchomp's base form an asset, since the most common set (Tankchomp) deals with a completely different set of mons (contact Physical attackers) compared to his Mega (Fat walls and speedy attackers that can't quickly KO him). Mega Garchomp's lower speed can work in your favor bluffing defensive sets, and help hide him if pair with mons like Scizor.
So to explain my point: Garchomp, who is not dependent on team support to perform sufficiently and expands Sand's Playstyle match up is in B-, while Swampert, who does need his rain and compounds the playstyles strengths and weaknesses is in B+. Both face their own competition for the Mega Slot in general (Rain also likes Scizor, Manectric, and I've heard Heracross as a wallbreaker), so I don't think that alone can explain that difference. I think Garchomp deserves to move up to B/B+.
As for the Kyurem-B comparison, the lack of a Mega Slot is a serious boon, but some things I think should be considered are the differences in longevity. Garchomp has more resistances than Kyu-B (Fire, Poison, and Rock all help) as well as a neutrality Kyu-B lacks in Fighting. These types make Mega Garchomp harder to Revenge or OHKO combined with his slightly greater raw bulk, not to mention his resistance to SR, which I think important since a Wallbreaker wants to be able to come in often to threaten out walls and apply offensive pressure. Garchomp's moves are also a bit more pressuring, since they not only have higher BP than Kyu-B (bar the latter running Outrage on some sets), but Garchomp is often using his special stat to apply pressure as a threat rather than having to depend on mixed attacking as Kyu-B does. I think of Garchomp as a Physical attacker with Special power to break more Physical resilient walls, while I think of Kyu-B as the opposite (a special wallbreaker with some Physical options). However, since Garchomp's primary offense tends to be his stronger one, I think he functions a bit better in terms of raw power.
All the above said, I support Mega Garchomp to rise, B/B+
with the lingering fear I have about Aegislash giving OU the middle finger and coming back, I'll have to say A+ For Clefable, because if Aegislash comes back, WE. ARE. FUCKED.
Don't let any current suspects or possible bannings/unbannings affect your decision here. The Viability Rankings are to reflect the current metagame rather than the metagame with any possible future changes - this includes Smogon suspects, Game Freak's event Pokémon, hidden abilities and moves, etc. Just focus on what we have now, we'll deal with future changes when they come.
---> A
Kyurem-B is just really hard switch into and has ways of getting past its would be checks, be it through the DClaw-Iron Head physical sets or HP Fire lures. Other common checks like Clefable and Ferrothorn take around 43-50% from 252+ Ice Beam, that gap isn't that hard to pick up through chip damage especially on Ferrothorn. SR weakness is a thing, but its only a 25% chip (compared to some just as relevant threats that take 50%) and it can also use Roost to potentially get some of that back. The specially based set puts in enough work in wrecking defensive cores but the other options really put it over the top. Kyurem-B to A
---> A
Kyurem-B is just really hard switch into and has ways of getting past its would be checks, be it through the DClaw-Iron Head physical sets or HP Fire lures. Other common checks like Clefable and Ferrothorn take around 43-50% from 252+ Ice Beam, that gap isn't that hard to pick up through chip damage especially on Ferrothorn. SR weakness is a thing, but its only a 25% chip (compared to some just as relevant threats that take 50%) and it can also use Roost to potentially get some of that back. The specially based set puts in enough work in wrecking defensive cores but the other options really put it over the top. Kyurem-B to A
I'd second this, I've been using kyurem-b (the substitute+3 attacks) and it sets up subs on rotom-w with ease. I would mention if grachomp is running its bulky tank set, kyurem threatens it due to dragon tail having negative priority, which means you can sub on the switch, but that's prediction and I won't get into that. from what I use it for, it threatens electric types because they can volt switch to block an incoming earth power, then be caught off guard by a substitute and have their switch in forced to break the sub, or let kyurem get off some free damage. However, while its offenses are still good, not having a boosting item for its attack does hurt it, as I've missed some crucial OHKOs because it runs lefties. One example is life orb OHKOs Azumarill, while lefties is a guaranteed 2HKO, I'm on mobile so I can't calc. Seeing as balance is the prominent play style right now, kyurem really enjoys this as it can set up sub, or just fire off strong attacks. Even vs offense it has great bulk which will at least net one kill. I do agree that stealth rocks and weakness to most priority does suck, but OU has a viable amount of defoggers and spinners that is until aegislash comes back then we have only Mandibuzz.
I can see this getting bumped, but what do I know I'm just a low ladder scrub :].
After using Tornadus-Therian for the majority of my laddering, I completely support a raise to A+. Its pivoting ability, excellent team utility, and momentum grabbing ability make it a prime choice to use on your teams. It's prominent, and its ranking should reflect that. The whole argument of Hurricane missing is not enough to hold it back in my opinion. While others have mentioned that it has a Confusion chance, thus making up for poor accuracy, I think it's actually fine with the miss for another reason: Flying-type. 110 Special Attack isn't bad per say, and Hurricane is equal in power. Flying-type STAB is really nice, and not a lot like switching into it. Even if it does have a chance of missing, Tornadus-Therian outspeed nearly anything trying to switch directly into it, giving it a chance to hit before the opponent and hit it correctly this time. The only other Pokemon that matches its Speed are Alakazam, Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, and Mega Aerodactyl. Tornadus isn't going to stay in on any of these Pokemon, and Mega Lopunny and Alakazam don't like switching directly into it. Hurricane might miss on the switch in, but other Pokemon are slower and Tornadus-Therian has the "grace" of being faster and hitting a weakened Pokemon with Hurricane the second time. It's almost live a saving grace, but not really. It's very hard to describe what I mean without sounding silly x_x, so I hope you understand what I mean! Besides this, all of its other qualities and attributes scream A+ Rank to me.
Mega Camerupt should be moved to C- or D-Rank in my opinion. Its outclassed significantly by both Charizard Y and Landorous, both of whom are faster and hit much harder. Its Speed is pretty terrible and when combined with its two significant weaknesses to Water and Ground, the amount of mons it can switch into is limited. Definitely not C-Rank material, especially when far better options such as Charizard Y and Landorus-I exist.
