Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[You...You...]

I find it interesting that players using Keldeo in Smogon Tour matches only won 43.85% of the time, by far the lowest winning percentage of any top mon out there.

Also from the same place I got these stats from is this:

 

[AM]

This is another issue I really have with Keldeo is that its basically hard stopped depending on what set its running. Specs is hard to switch into, but relatively easy for offense to force out because of its lower speed tier, not to mention even the specs set does piss if it gets locked into a bad coverage move. SubCM can be a decent Stallbreaker, but its lack of initial power means it has trouble finding set up chances until anything that can beat most bulky water types is eliminated. No matter what Keldeo runs, something is going to give it severe problems. Compared to the other S-Ranks I find Keldeo is neither proficient enough at one role nor effective enough in a diverse number of sets to feel S-Rank to me. Compared to other S-Ranks:

Metagross: Has a better speed tier, and only one or two sets, but the sheer power behind its moves thanks to Tough Claws and its relatively minimal need for coverage means Metagross has everything it needs to be a threatening wallbreaker and/or Agility Sweeper.

Landorus: This thing is always a frightening wallbreaker, the choice of its 4th move just defines whether it wants to give even more hell to Stall, Offense, or balance.

Altaria: Altaria can either be an offensive sweeper, a defensive win condition, a Wallbreaker, or even a decent cleric. Altaria only performs maybe at an A+ level on any set, but the sets function so differently but effectively that you have to prepare for Altaria to do any of the above.

Clefable: I personally felt Clefable was a weak S-Rank as well, but I still would say it's closer to that line than Keldeo. Clefable can just do a lot of different things as well, ranging from defensive utility to LO lure/offensive sets, while being a decent defensive glue for balance teams. While not nearly as varied as Altaria, Clefable can do a number of things very well for a team, especially considering it isn't a Mega nor does it cost anything like another form or something.

Keldeo's choice of set has very little effect on what it typically takes to answer him. Yes, maybe there's some mons that can't answer the SubCM set as well as the Choiced sets, but the answers to to be the same: Talonflame, Bulky Waters, fast attackers (though Scarfers usually for the Scarf set in particular). Keldeo is never something I find myself weak to because the sheer number of checks he has means that taking the Metagross or Landorus approach of trying to wear out his own checks/counters doesn't work as well because Keldeo is much more easily pressured by them.

The win percentage argument can't be discounted just based on that because Keldeo has a significant usage rate, compared to things like Pikachu Belle appearing... once during the tours? If Keldeo is used on, say, 60 teams and only has a 40% win ratio, that would have to mean something considering this is an S-Rank mon that is supposed to be able to pressure even teams that do prepare for it. Granted it shouldn't dictate the ranking alone, but with something as significant as S-Rank Keldeo, it has to indicate something about how it fits into Tournament level play.

Tornadus-T might not be metagame defining on the level of the S-Rank mons, but it is a significantly useful mon on the rise that is a consistent answer to Keldeo. And as I noted earlier, there are at least 20+ Pokemon that can answer Keldeo to reasonable effect in the A- and up ranks. None of those mons are defining the meta on the S-Rank level, but if the S-Ranks define a meta in which these are doing well, their presence still hurts Keldeo. The argument could be made that these mons are also rising in response to Keldeo, but at least half of these Pokemon were in the upper ranks already, and quite a few others (like Serperior) didn't tend to take Keldeo in particular into consideration in moving up. Aside from maybe one or two like Celebi, I don't feel like any of the high ranked Keldeo answers got there in SIGNIFICANT effect because they answered Keldeo. You mention Starmie moving up didn't cause Keldeo to drop, but you also noted by the same token that Torn-T, arguably a more influential mon, rising shouldn't justify dropping Keldeo.

Still, as I noted, Torn-T and Starmie are among mons that have been rising that check Keldeo, but I doubt anyone would say it's BECAUSE they beat Keldeo the same way Mandibuzz rose because she answered Aegislash well. I do NOT claim anything to have that same level of pull, but Metagross for example was a notable factor in Slowking being nominated to rise, or how countering Landorus is a big part of Cresselia's ranking for a while. I have never seen "it checks Keldeo" listed as a significant argument to raise anything in a nomination the way other S-Ranks have gotten.

Even with its S-Rank now, Keldeo is never something I find myself particularly weak to, to the point of outright changing out members or reshuffling cores. At most I find myself altering a couple coverage moves and that's it. I don't consider Keldeo meta defining in the sense that the meta follows him, but rather that Keldeo has a slight degree of adaptability (in spite of his shallow movepool) and one role that is tricky to invalidate or weaken in the Meta because of Scald, regardless of what I think of the 30% "hax or just muscling past" arguments. That said, Keldeo does that role pretty well, but not well enough that you have to bend entire teamslots to it specifically.

I never understood the logic of how Keldeo is actually pressured to the extent people have been making it out to be in the way it's being described in the thread. Many of these checks are either not even exactly sure fire or safe switch ins to begin with. Some have either the liberty of switching in once or twice at best and in most cases will fail to grab momentum unless it's something like BP celebi. Win rates aren't exactly be all end all but it's kind of important to note when Keldeo sits at the #4 position clearing showing a higher amount of viability so people are definitely aware of the uses and capabilities it has. Im saying this from experience, Torn-T is not a reliable answer to Keldeo at all on top of Specs, burns, and Icy Wind that's a pretty big leap to say this should be considered a Keldeo answer. Keldeo definitely fits under something you need to take into account for to a higher extent than the majority of A+ mons. Maybe that's just you but I definitely wouldn't go into team-building thinking that the foundation of my team can be made so that I don't have to account for specs, burns, and scarf Keldeo. I'm not exactly too concerned of its placement right now but it's being vastly underrated as to how Keldeo can function and dictate and or put a lot of role compression into one team that some have taken for granted here under the guise of, "its easy to check" when in reality taking into account what it can supplement and the cores surrounded by it, it's far from that.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I mean no affront to those who have been saying "Keldeo should stay in S", but Scald has been completely blown out of proportion. It is a 30% chance to burn, and yet a fair number of people are proclaiming burns as an absolutely guaranteed part of Keldeo's kit. The fact that Scald can burn is a little enough reason to keep Keldeo in S as it is for Tornadus-T to drop to A because Hurricane has a 30% chance to miss. It is true that Scald burns are more influential than Hurricane misses, but the sheer fact that I have seen something to the effect of "but the burns are too strong" in almost every post regarding Keldeo is getting out of hand! You can not rely on Scald to burn the Lati twins any more than you can on winning due to a Hurricane miss.
They are both possible, but asserting the burns as a guaranteed part of Keldeo is overblown.

 

[Galom]

While I definitely do agree with you that inflicting Burn should not be considered a "staple" of Keldeo itself, it is a staple of Scald, which is viewed as very powerful because those that resist the attack fear the Burn, while those that are immune to Burn fear the attack.

That said, I don't think the threat of a burn is one of the reasons that Keldeo is as good as it is. Keldeo is great because it has lots of cool sets that all have to be played around differently: both Choices, SubCM, etc.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

While I definitely do agree with you that inflicting Burn should not be considered a "staple" of Keldeo itself, it is a staple of Scald, which is viewed as very powerful because those that resist the attack fear the Burn, while those that are immune to Burn fear the attack.

That said, I don't think the threat of a burn is one of the reasons that Keldeo is as good as it is. Keldeo is great because it has lots of cool sets that all have to be played around differently: both Choices, SubCM, etc.

I'm aware that its sets are lethal even without burns, but the argument that has been pushed so hard recently is that a burn invalidates the threats that normally counter Keldeo, either by putting chip damage on the bulky mons that stop it or crippling the attack of its physically offensive checks. Though this is true, the reliance on a 30% effect to warrant a spot in S is just too iffy for me. To me it is similar to Torn-T being deranked because its Hurricane can miss.

 

[QueenOfHax]

I find it interesting that players using Keldeo in Smogon Tour matches only won 43.85% of the time, by far the lowest winning percentage of any top mon out there.

Irrelevant.
Not only is Smogon Tour an incredibly small sample size, but this thread is about the viability on the ladder.
Smogon Tour is all about counterteaming, so of course the biggest threats are overprepared for and may appear worse than they really are.

 

[Merritt]

To put it in perspective, it's a little more than a 30% chance in a countering situation. Unless the mon in question is faster than Keldeo (which things like Azumarill are not) then the Keldeo player can decide to stay in and hope for a burn. After two hits from scald, the chance that you burn once is 51%.

While that's not enough for a supermajority, I still like those odds, especially if you're asking to move up Tornadus-T to S. It's a better chance to burn over two turns than Tornadus to hit Hurricane twice in two turns (49%). Scald's still in a better spot even then, because if you fail to burn then at least you're still doing good damage off Keldeo's high SpA. If you miss Hurricane you're doing nothing except giving your opponent a free turn.

This isn't to say Keldeo is an S rank mon, I could see it in either S or A+

 

[p2]

I mean no affront to those who have been saying "Keldeo should stay in S", but Scald has been completely blown out of proportion. It is a 30% chance to burn, and yet a fair number of people are proclaiming burns as an absolutely guaranteed part of Keldeo's kit. The fact that Scald can burn is a little enough reason to keep Keldeo in S as it is for Tornadus-T to drop to A because Hurricane has a 30% chance to miss. It is true that Scald burns are more influential than Hurricane misses, but the sheer fact that I have seen something to the effect of "but the burns are too strong" in almost every post regarding Keldeo is getting out of hand! You can not rely on Scald to burn the Lati twins any more than you can on winning due to a Hurricane miss.
They are both possible, but asserting the burns as a guaranteed part of Keldeo is overblown.

People aren't really banking on Scald being a guaranteed first switch in burn every time thing. It's because Keldeos checks need to come in on Scalds so many times if it wants to force it out and slowly wear it down. I don't think anybody is trying to say "it burns its checks the first time they come in" because that's just false. Keldeo forces its checks to come in so many times in a game that it's just so likely to burn with Scald. It's just an almost guaranteed eventual burn that puts so much more pressure onto its checks and counters. Keldeo is definitely a lot harder to counter than most of the other A+ ranks because you just cannot just use 1 teamslot on it and call it a day, especially if its something like the Latis because they are both so easy to wear down and beat with Bisharp / TTar. I don't think it's broken at all, but considering you need to account for all of its effective sets and the guessing game of what Hidden Power its running, I think it's pretty annoying to teambuild around because you need to make sure you don't just autolose to it if it carries a specific Hidden Power.

It's a 30% chance, but over the course of longer games, it's just nearly guaranteed to burn considering how often Keldeo just spams Scald.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

People aren't really banking on Scald being a guaranteed first switch in burn every time thing. It's because Keldeos checks need to come in on Scalds so many times if it wants to force it out and slowly wear it down. I don't think anybody is trying to say "it burns its checks the first time they come in" because that's just false. Keldeo forces its checks to come in so many times in a game that it's just so likely to burn with Scald. It's just an almost guaranteed eventual burn that puts so much more pressure onto its checks and counters. Keldeo is definitely a lot harder to counter than most of the other A+ ranks because you just cannot just use 1 teamslot on it and call it a day, especially if its something like the Latis because they are both so easy to wear down and beat with Bisharp / TTar. I don't think it's broken at all, but considering you need to account for all of its effective sets and the guessing game of what Hidden Power its running, I think it's pretty annoying to teambuild around because you need to make sure you don't just autolose to it if it carries a specific Hidden Power.

It's a 30% chance, but over the course of longer games, it's just nearly guaranteed to burn considering how often Keldeo just spams Scald.

Granted. Though the pressure that will be applied while the poke is still healthy is something that must be covered by an amount of team support that seems uncharacteristic of an S rank Pokemon. Covering such a "meh" issue is not something any other S rank needs, and is why I believe that Keldeo should end as an A+ for now. I will never say that Keldeo is not good, because it is. But I hold it in similar standings to a number of A+ Pokemon. In A+ it would be one of the best, but in S it is certainly the worst (once again not saying it is bad but everything else in S [even the recently added Clefable] is so strong).

 

[AM]

Irrelevant.
Not only is Smogon Tour an incredibly small sample size, but this thread is about the viability on the ladder.
Smogon Tour is all about counterteaming, so of course the biggest threats are overprepared for and may appear worse than they really are.

Um no lol.

Rankings are to display viability for higher level play especially tournaments if not holds more weight than the viability in regards to ladder setting.

Also tornt is not S, plain and simple to those stating this.

 

[Vxy]

So Clone made a good post about Mega Garchomp going up, and I agree with that.

It's soooo hard to wall, the most people do for it is slap a Landorus-T or Hippowdon or Clefable onto their team which are probably some of the best "checks" for Mega Garchomp on balanced teams right now. I personally like the mixed set because most people send in their Lando or Hippo against this thing only to take a TON of damage from Draco Meteor. I made a quick team with all out attacker Mega Garchomp (fully physical) and got this replay where the opponent had nothing bar Landorus-T to take it on.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232629114

Now I know I won simply because he got greedy with the Double Dance Lando, thinking it could set-up on my Tyranitar but that's opponent's fault and nobody else's. Now the main arguments for Mega Garchomp that people will come up with to keep it down is it's slow, it "requires" sand (lol what garbage), and it's hard to fit on a team so I'll take the time to reply to those right now.

It's low speed is a problem, yes....but only against offense. And guess what? Mega Garchomp has fantastic natural bulk, allowing it to tank attacks like Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump, and HP Ice from Mega Manectric and Raikou. As a quick comparison, Mega Garchomp's uninvested special bulk is nearly as good as mixed defensive Hippowdon's. Chomp takes 48.7% from Modest Alakazam's Psychic and mixed defensive Hippo takes 45% (minimum rolls). Mega Garchomp's uninvested physical bulk is nearly as good as uninvested Hippowdon's bulk, too, as there's only a 1-2% difference. So yeah, Mega Garchomp's low speed DOES matter but only against offense where its great bulk allows it to tank powerful and super effective hits and hit back extremely hard.

The second argument that would come is that it needs sand to do its job of wallbreaking effectively. I'm going to say straight up that this is false. If people think LO Kyurem-B is powerful...well how about I just say Mega Garchomp hits just as hard with Draco Meteor and Earthquake? And EQ hits that hard with 4 Attack EVs and a positive nature. Without sand. Now if you think fully invested LO Kyurem-B is "weak", how about I say fully invested Mega Garchomp's EQ hits for only 2-3% less than mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice? I know this probably sounds like some advertisement but my point is Mega Garchomp does NOT need sand to hit hard and break walls. It 2HKOs defensive Clefable half the time with a fully invested Earthquake which is a neutral attack. That's pretty impressive if you ask me considering Clefable walls regular Garchomp (even if you have LO). Add on to this that these calcs and comparisons aren't even considering Sand Force or a Swords Dance boost yet. I think I've made my point now so I'll move to the next point.

Mega Garchomp is pretty hard to fit on a team, I agree. Most people will put it on a sand team because there is no better sand Mega. Sure, things like Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria may have good synergy with Tyranitar and Excadrill, but do they take advantage of the sand? No, if anything, they're hindered by it because they lose 6% of their health every turn sand is up. Mega Garchomp takes advantage of the sand Tyranitar provides and fits well with the sand duo. It wallbreaks early game so that Excadrill can take advantage of Mega Garchomp's great ability to weaken the opposing team and then cleans up. Sometimes you don't even need to use Excadrill to clean as Garchomp can do that by itself, like in the replay I gave. I think most people just get caught up with "Mega Garchomp has Sand Force so you need to give it sand" which is why they think it's hard to fit on a team, and this may be true as even I think like that, but the only way we'll know this for sure is if we use Mega Garchomp on a team that doesn't have sand.

Basically, Mega Garchomp should rise.

 

[Force Majeure]

Here's something:

I agree with -Clone- that Garchomp-Mega should rise to B/+. I think the point about M-Chomp's ability to go fully physical and beat things that would usually require special coverage from regular Garchomp (Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory) is quite nice. However, I think it still suffers a bit from the speed decrease, although you still do get one turn of Garchomp's speed and Mega Garchomp's attack power. The classic comparison is Kyurem-B, although I'm not sure this comparison holds up very well as Kyu-B has little hope of going fully physical (Banded sets run Ice Beam quite frequently) and M-Chomp has a SR resist and soft Paralysis immunity that Kyu-B lack.

Sergeant Spooky posted about Politoed and Kingdra a bit ago and it got a little buried by stuff about Keldeo. I think there's a pretty solid case for Kingdra to A-, or a reorganization such that Kingdra = Politoed. I've seen a few more rain cores + rain-friendly but non-rain mons.

 

[Eraxxer]

Mega Chomp is incredibly strong, with ridiculous bulk and mixed attaching presence, able to hit like a freaking truck even out of sand but once you're in sand you can say goodbye to your precious 'bulky' Pokemon as they all die - 92 Base Speed is still alright and Mega Chomp has a slight boost of being unexpected (not amazing but still a bonus) in that a lot of people will expect the currently extemely common bulky Chomp and avoid trying to hit it with physical contact moves.

102 Base Speed on the mega turn is also really helfpul. Just a good Polemon and I would argue that B+ is probably better for it than just B, but B would be a good start at least.

 

[monte73]

I don't normally post here, and I never made a nomination before, but I would like to nominate Poliwrath to the D Rank

Poliwrath may seem like an odd nominee in OU, but he does have some assets that I think are useful in OU. The biggest reason I see in using Poliwrath, is to completely counter Keldeo. With it's pretty good 90/95/90 bulk, Poliwrath can tank a Secret Sword, and phase it out with Circle Throw. With the ability Water Absorb, Poliwrath can switch into a potential Hydro Pump/Scald and receive a nice amount of HP back, and not have to worry about a Burn from Scald, which is really nice.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 154-183 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Poliwrath also won't just be a Keldeo Counter for a persons team (unless your team is really weak to Keldeo) but he can also Check/Coutner some pretty dangerous Pokemon. Equipped with Scald, and force switch, Poliwrath can pass Burns around a team. And if your team has entry hazards, Circle Throw can rack up some damage. However, this will usually be a one time only switch in for some Pokemon, as Poliwrath won't be able to tank many hits, unless he gets a Water Absorb or is able to use Rest to heal. Which isn't to bad, since Poliwrath will run Sleep Talk. But the nice part about Poliwrath is Circle Throw, which forces a Pokemon to switch. Not to mention, its typing is actually pretty good.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 213-252 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Switch in on the DD and phase it out with Circle Throw)
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 63-75 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 52-62 (13.5 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 153-180 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 163-193 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 254-302 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Can't switch in sadly, but can take a hit and phase it out with circle throw or OHKO it with Scald if rocks are up.)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 84-99 (21.8 - 25.7%) -- 2.8% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Some of these calcs may seem irrelevant since some of them are resisted hits. But I wanted to showcase how Poliwraths typing and stats can counter/check some of the higher ranking Pokemon in the meta and isn't always dead weight to a team, if Keldeo isn't present on the opposing team.

 

[Master B8s]

I don't normally post here, and I never made a nomination before, but I would like to nominate Poliwrath to the D Rank

Poliwrath may seem like an odd nominee in OU, but he does have some assets that I think are useful in OU. The biggest reason I see in using Poliwrath, is to completely counter Keldeo. With it's pretty good 90/95/90 bulk, Poliwrath can tank a Secret Sword, and phase it out with Circle Throw. With the ability Water Absorb, Poliwrath can switch into a potential Hydro Pump/Scald and receive a nice amount of HP back, and not have to worry about a Burn from Scald, which is really nice.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 154-183 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Poliwrath also won't just be a Keldeo Counter for a persons team (unless your team is really weak to Keldeo) but he can also Check/Coutner some pretty dangerous Pokemon. Equipped with Scald, and force switch, Poliwrath can pass Burns around a team. And if your team has entry hazards, Circle Throw can rack up some damage. However, this will usually be a one time only switch in for some Pokemon, as Poliwrath won't be able to tank many hits, unless he gets a Water Absorb or is able to use Rest to heal. Which isn't to bad, since Poliwrath will run Sleep Talk. But the nice part about Poliwrath is Circle Throw, which forces a Pokemon to switch. Not to mention, its typing is actually pretty good.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 213-252 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Switch in on the DD and phase it out with Circle Throw)
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 56.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 63-75 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 52-62 (13.5 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 153-180 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 163-193 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 254-302 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Can't switch in sadly, but can take a hit and phase it out with circle throw or OHKO it with Scald if rocks are up.)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 84-99 (21.8 - 25.7%) -- 2.8% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Some of these calcs may seem irrelevant since some of them are resisted hits. But I wanted to showcase how Poliwraths typing and stats can counter/check some of the higher ranking Pokemon in the meta and isn't always dead weight to a team, if Keldeo isn't present on the opposing team.

While this is nice, AM posted a physically based keldeo with roar in the creative sets thread and mentioned he was gonna use poliwrath, but keldeo shares similar bulk and accomplishes the same thing. Water absorb and circle throw are nice, but switching in on a water move is a prediction because your opponent can just go for a different move and wear poliwrath down until it's forced to rest/too weak to come in again. Circle throw has negative priority to, so wrath will have to take 2 hits before it can phase something out, which just forces it to rest next turn. The replay I watched, the physically defensive keldeo still had the offensive presence unboosted to threaten out what it wants, while poliwrath doesn't. The slightly less bulk is migitated by the fact keldeo has a far superior speed, meaning it can force out much more slower Pokemon and roar on the switch. I'm not gonna say I know how the sets worked, but this was from what I saw in the replay so you can have him testify, but I'm against poliwrath. Keep Poliwrath unranked.

 

[Radio_Active]

Being one of the best Choice users in the whole meta, I think Victini should move up to A-(more than that though is overkill.) Being able to 2HKO the (almost) entire metagame with V-Create is very good, as well as usually walling most M-Metagross(Those things mostly run Hammer Arm because of Ferro), having a very diverse movepool and being able to outspeed (with a Choice Scarf) the entire S section and OHKO or 2HKO it(with rocks) is awesome. Talking about diverse movepool it has Bolt Strike to KO waters and Final Gambit to kill whatever thing is walling it. In terms of natural diversity, Tini's best sets are Band and Scarf, though it can run LO, Expert Belt, Lefties successfully and also has a subpar special set. I understand this thing has flaws,(mediocre speed, average offenses) but what Landorus or Altaria doesn't have flaws? The very fact that almost nothing can switch safely on this thing repeatedly can guarantee its position in A-.

 

[North Gate]

Being one of the best Choice users in the whole meta, I think Victini should move up to A-(more than that though is overkill.) Being able to 2HKO the (almost) entire metagame with V-Create is very good, as well as usually walling most M-Metagross(Those things mostly run Hammer Arm because of Ferro), having a very diverse movepool and being able to outspeed (with a Choice Scarf) the entire S section and OHKO or 2HKO it(with rocks) is awesome. Talking about diverse movepool it has Bolt Strike to KO waters and Final Gambit to kill whatever thing is walling it. In terms of natural diversity, Tini's best sets are Band and Scarf, though it can run LO, Expert Belt, Lefties successfully and also has a subpar special set. I understand this thing has flaws,(mediocre speed, average offenses) but what Landorus or Altaria doesn't have flaws? The very fact that almost nothing can switch safely on this thing repeatedly can guarantee its position in A-.

...Subpar? That set lures everything trying to take a V-create! It's really good! Your Lando-T switch in? Meh, take a Glaciate.
My opinion aside, Victini's rise is something I've wanted to talk about for a decent period of time. It is able to 2HKO the whole tier with coverage and raw power but it's sub par speed lets is lose to a couple of other scarfers, but, the 2HKO argument isn't the best, if that was the case, then Rampardos should merit C rank right? Yeah, no. It's typing allows it to check Mega Gardevoir as well, and it's ability reduces more luck reliant moves to be less luck reliant (although still pretty luck reliant). It's good but literally every time it nukes something you can lose momentum because of the stat drops making you switch out unless you want to die.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

AM made this post in the old ranking thread, and I think it still applies now.

Yeah in all honesty I think Victini barely just made it to B+, let alone A- last slate with an argument of even dropping it down due to its rock and pursuit weaknesses. What pushed it to B+ in the first place was the band and mixed sets but A- is really just pushing it at this point and trying to force out these capabilities that is way easier said than done. Victini's ability to break all these archtypes necessitates that all the issues it has like SR and being Pursuit weak are removed out of the picture in order to function effectively. Then we get into the argument of "oh well hazard control is easy to come by". Like man, idk about you, but there isn't that many reliable hazard removers in the meta if we're just spit-balling a comparison in regards to the amount of hazard removers and what actually works with well with each other with regards to what appreciates this hazard control and is effective at the same time. Being one of the few good spinners in the tier is one of the traits that is being discussed for Starmie's placement in A+ because realistically you have that, Excadrill, and then a couple of lower ranked stuff to go off of with everything else being Defoggers that are mostly all prone to Defiant Thundurus and Bisharp.

That hazard removal that it needs is a pretty solid amount of support you're asking on for something that is being suggested for A-. Lati /Starmie + Victini adds on the pursuit weakness, Emp + Victini adds on Landorus weakness, Skarm + Victini adds on Keldeo weakness and these are just common occurrences or top tier aspects seen on like every team in some form or another. You could use the argument that Volcarona sort of adds on these same elements for a variety of these and needs the hazard removal even more making them equal but the difference that makes me feel like Volcarona is more viable is that its set up move is waaaay more easy to pull off and tears through way more meta-game trends in just one turn. A lot of Victini's success is, match up based is the word? Like it really doesn't just spam these moves as easily as people try to assume lol cause a lot of times it's popping off a V-Create making it easier to handle next turn due to speed drop (this kills a lot of momentum by the way, it's a double edged sword), trying to play around some prediction games on its choice sets which sort of kill the whole murdering all playstyles argument since it can't do so in one go like certain set up sweepers, and overall sort of has the issue with a lot of wall-breakers that they fall under this speed tier of being forced out by a bunch of dangerous stuff on offense and balance like Landorus and Keldeo.

Post is sort of all over the place but eh I think it's perfectly fine in B+ and A- is pushing it too far and has that case of hype that happens when a craze of something happens and people just assume it should go higher due to that craze, which Victini sort of has right now.

TL;DR I disagree with Victini going up to A-. While it's one of the greatest wallbreakers ever, you can't hide the fact that it's weak to both Stealth Rock AND Pursuit, and not the greatest match-up against the metagame when considering Pokemon such as Mega Altaria, Keldeo, and Landorus are quite commonplace.

 

[Reisuke]

Being one of the best Choice users in the whole meta, I think Victini should move up to A-(more than that though is overkill.) Being able to 2HKO the (almost) entire metagame with V-Create is very good, as well as usually walling most M-Metagross(Those things mostly run Hammer Arm because of Ferro), having a very diverse movepool and being able to outspeed (with a Choice Scarf) the entire S section and OHKO or 2HKO it(with rocks) is awesome. Talking about diverse movepool it has Bolt Strike to KO waters and Final Gambit to kill whatever thing is walling it. In terms of natural diversity, Tini's best sets are Band and Scarf, though it can run LO, Expert Belt, Lefties successfully and also has a subpar special set. I understand this thing has flaws,(mediocre speed, average offenses) but what Landorus or Altaria doesn't have flaws? The very fact that almost nothing can switch safely on this thing repeatedly can guarantee its position in A-.

Victini isn't A- material. Because of it's stealth rock weakness (wich is it's biggest nerf) it's gonna take 25% every time it switches in. And since V-create mechanics you will be switching in and out a lot. So that damage rakes up. Choice scarf is great but lacks power and choice band nukes through but when a persuit user/priority user comes in (tyranitar is reliable and bisharp plays mind games) victini dies or switches and when SR is up that 's a problem.

Bypassing this with a LO special set won't really help since it's coverage may be great but it really lacks speed (you'll be running modest most of time) and it's best special stab may not have those drawbacks as V-create but is far weaker.

 

[megabackingengar]

I think thundurus-t should drop.

C+ rank is curretly filling with pokemon such as cress and ezpecially mega pidgeot which are very cool and neat.Thundurus-t on the other hand is much less useful.Thundurus can do everything it can bar a stronger special attack and volt absorb.It can run some double dance set and scarf which are cool but the former is very difficult to set up in this meta and the latter is a decent revenge killer at best.Volt absorb is cool but electric types bar rotom-w beat it anyway and rotom-w has three other crippling moves to use.C is a better fit to it.

Edit:my description sucks so basically read thundy-t to c and nothing else

 

[North Gate]

I think thundurus-t should drop.

C+ rank is curretly filling with pokemon such as cress and ezpecially mega pidgeot which are very cool and neat.Thundurus-t on the other hand is much less useful.Thundurus can do everything it can bar a stronger special attack and volt absorb.It can run some double dance set and scarf which are cool but the former is very difficult to set up in this meta and the latter is a decent revenge killer at best.Volt absorb is cool but electric types bar rotom-w beat it anyway and rotom-w has three other crippling moves to use.C is a better fit to it.

Edit:my description sucks so basically read thundy-t to c and nothing else

Forgetting to mention that unlike Thundurus, it isn't that strapped and runs Volt Switch commonly to gain momentum, it can also wallbreak with Nasty plot + 145 base Sp.Atk. I wouldn't use Scarf, I prefer Specs, but it's just personal preference. Double Dance isn't that good lol, picking a boosting move is either A: Offense Killer or B: Stall Killer. I think it's fine in C+ but it could drop because of opportunity cost, but even then, that argument only stretches so far. It's very powerful and shouldn't be overlooked. It can wallbreak + stallbreak a lot easier than Thundurus, the difference between Thundy-T and Thundy is that Therian does better against stall and doesn't have as good of utility (but hits hard as fuck), Incarnate does better against offense but doesn't hit as hard, but due to offenses frailer nature it doesn't need to. Nasty Plot Thundurus is useful but doesn't hit nearly as hard as Therian does and still has problems against some special walls.

 

[AM]

thundurus t shouldnt drop agility set is great, which I think its the best set it has. Too busy to make longer comment.

 

[Force Majeure]

Poliwrath should stay unranked. I wish it worked a bit better in OU. Most people who try it use some type of physically defensive set which does deal with most dark types. The problem is that Keldeo does this much better, even if it lacks circle throw and doesn't have water absorb. IF it had +20 SpA (and maybe +10 speed) it would be an excellent Swift Swimmer: it has high-powered STABs, priority, and is moderately useful. This is my favorite way to use Wrath in lower tiers, where it's actually quite, quite good.

I'm fine with Thundurus-T dropping if it's dropping because most of its sets (Choice, NP, double dance) are somewhat outclassed, mainly by Raikou and T-I. I'm not impressed by choice sets in the least but I don't think many people are at this stage. Volt Switch is kind of a crappy attack on Thundy compared to M-Man or Raikou because of the stealth rock weakness. I don't think that thundy is quite as versatile as it has been made out to be in the past.

Victini doesn't need a rise; it's one of the "better B+" Mons but really requires hazard removal. Unfortunately, it stacks nasty weaknesses with offensive spinners (starmie + Excadrill), same with Latios and Latias and most defoggers (Mandy and toge). I get that V-create is fantastic and Vic has lures for days, but it's K where it is.

 

[SketchUp]

Thundurus-T doesn't need to be versatile, as any set outside of sets that use speed (Agility / Scarf) are outclassed by Thundurus. The difference between 125 SpA and 145 SpA is pretty big especially if you consider that pokemon such as Hippowdon use enough SpD to beat Thundurus. Agility sets can even run Modest.

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 190-224 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 154-182 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 204-242 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm fine with Thundurus-T droppingif it's dropping because most of its sets (Choice, NP, double dance) are somewhat outclassed,

What exactly outclases Agility? Nothing hits as hard as Thundurus-T and I can't think of a speed boosting electric type who is better than Thunudurus-T. Not much time to make a longer post but C+ is fine for thundy-t

 

[Force Majeure]

What exactly outclases Agility? Nothing hits as hard as Thundurus-T and I can't think of a speed boosting electric type who is better than Thunudurus-T.

I never suggested that Agility was outclassed, so I don't know where you're getting that. Otherwise, point taken.