Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[nizzyd18]

Smeargle --> Unranked: I agree with this. After the BP Clause, this thing is just really bad in general, and it's outclassed by pretty much every single hazard setter, and Dark Void isn't really that reliable with that 80% accuracy, and if it has spore, grass types shit on it, especially breloom as it just destroys it with mach punch.

Heatran --> A: I disagree. This is one of the most splashable pokemon in the tier. Offensive Fire Type? Heatran. A SpDef tank? Heatran. Offensive rocker? Heatran. Check to Talonflame and steels in general? Heatran. This thing can be used on any sort of playstyle, and it's a very good mon atm with mega scizor and ferrothorn being really common, and it doesn't require some pokemon to use HP Fire to lure them (such as manaphy or lati@s).

Weavile --> A+: I agree. This thing is so fast and it hits pretty hard. That Dual STAB is really nice in this meta. STAB Knock Off is really nice, with great priority in Ice Shard and a powerful Icicle Crash, so this really shits on psychics and dragons (especially tank chomp, which is on almost every team now lol). The last move can be what coverage your team needs. Poison Jab shits on fairies which get wrecked after knock off, Low Kick shits on steel types and rock types, and swords dance gives you a nice win-con with the cost of losing a coverage move.

Mega Gyarados --> A I haven't used this thing much, so I don't have much of a say for this.

Mega Altaria ---> A+: I'm unsure about this. The dragon dance set is easily walled by steels but mega altaria can run coverage such as earthquake and fire blast at the cost of using its great support moves such as heal bell, roost, and refresh. However it's still a huge threat and destroys unprepared teams, and it's one of if not the best dragon dancer in the tier atm.

Starmie --> A-: Again, unsure about this. Starmie is arguably better than excadrill as a rapid spinner, it's fast as a support mon, it can absorb status with natural cure, and it can burn its switch-ins with scald. The psychic typing is great for it as it can threaten stuff such as mega venusaur and keldeo, but it also sucks since Scarf Tar, bisharp, and weavile are all really common and really threatening towards it, and they pretty much guarantee a kill if they're running pursuit (or crunch if you end up sacking it).

Mega Alakazam --> A+: Agree with this. This thing nukes everything with Psychic (or psyshock, fuck you chansey), and it's really fast to go along with it. The thing gets a lot of good coverage moves, such as dazzling gleam, shadow ball, focus blast, drain punch, which really helps out (albeit focus blast is not reliable, it's still nice for stuff like bisharp and steels). It gets a nice support movepool as well, such as protect, taunt, thunder wave, dual screens, etc.

 

[Roxachronic]

If anything i think the most obvious one is smeargle to unranked, like seriously it lost its only reason for being in OU.

Now about M-Altaria going to A+ i disagree, aside from Clefable is the only mon who has 2 "S" rank sets, which talks about how versatile and adaptable it is, its weakness to steels is barely noticeable when it is killing them anyways, it lacks the power of CharX, but CharX lacks its versatility since its only useful set right now is DD, also in balance cores is very easy to build around M-Altaria since its type weaknesses can be patched with just one mon(Heatran for example resists 3 of its weaknesses x4, and is immune to one of them) giving our cotton candy dragon an edge in the defensive aspect, alongside being less concerned about SR because of it.

I think the reason M-Altaria seems to be losing its luster is because people prepare for it too well because is quite common, but that only reassures that without a proper check you can get screwed pretty easily by it, scouting her is more difficult since it can go physical or special, could be support, or a ddd set.

Until the moment the only viable set is DD i dont think is fair comparing it just for that role against CharX(tough it is still relevant just not the only thing that matters, especially when she has more sets, better defensive synergy, and a couple of nice support options which improves its overall versatility).

 

[Tele]

lol how can chansey, quagsire and gothitelle be ranked so low (they are all B) when they are on every stall team which is probably the most consistent playstyle right now? how can they be ranked lower than dragalde for example lol. there has to be something wrong with gothitelle being ranked as low as mega sceptile or mega beedril, considering that its having absurd usages on the ladder and is also being discussed as a potential suspect

anyway i support maltaria dropping, its about as usefull as caterpie against stall being unable to get past of skarm-quagsire(-among) cores, has too many checks against offense (scizor, weavile, twave thundurus, talonflame) and anyway it will struggle to set up against it.

 

[p2]

lol how can chansey, quagsire and gothitelle be ranked so low (they are all B) when they are on every stall team which is probably the most consistent playstyle right now? how can they be ranked lower than dragalde for example lol. there has to be something wrong with gothitelle being ranked as low as mega sceptile or mega beedril, considering that its having absurd usages on the ladder and is also being discussed as a potential suspect

anyway i support maltaria dropping, its about as usefull as caterpie against stall being unable to get past of skarm-quagsire(-among) cores, has too many checks against offense (scizor, weavile, twave thundurus, talonflame) and anyway it will struggle to set up against it.

How the fuck is Stall consistent in this meta with Manaphy, Hoopa-U, Torn-T and plenty other viable stallbreakers are running around?

 

[Tele]

How the fuck is Stall consistent in this meta with Manaphy, Hoopa-U, Torn-T and plenty other viable stallbreakers are running around?

the mons u mentioned affect more balanced playestyles rather than stall. in fact stall has an adeguate answer to almost all of them, like gothitelle for manaphy or cresselia for torn t, which like i said makes it the most consistent playstyle, and its no surprise its being used on the ladder even from some of the most quoted tournament players on the site

 

[Finchinator]

lol how can chansey, quagsire and gothitelle be ranked so low (they are all B) when they are on every stall team which is probably the most consistent playstyle right now? how can they be ranked lower than dragalde for example lol. there has to be something wrong with gothitelle being ranked as low as mega sceptile or mega beedril, considering that its having absurd usages on the ladder and is also being discussed as a potential suspect

Explain how stall is the most consistent playstyle, please. Stall is the most match-up reliant playstyle because it is simply incapable (or barely capable) of winning against certain teams that have too many breakers or forces against their team while offense or even balance can realistically combat opposing stall (if built properly), have a chance against opposing balance, and stand up to opposing offense (once again, if built properly, but that's a given at this point). Stall is the most risky, inconsistent playstyle, if anything.

I'd like to point out that you only see Chansey on these stall teams and it is almost always supported by the same case of pokemon - Quagsire, Skarmory, Gothitelle, Mega Sableye, etc. - which means that it doesn't have a widespread viability and while it can be effective on these fairly common stall teams, it isn't very good outside of them or in general (it just sits there, tanks hits, sets up rocks and seismic tosses...you'll never see a Chansey on a good offensive team, a good bulky-offensive team, a good balanced team, etc.). While being limited to being on one archetype isn't the only reason why something should be ranked low as there are many "offensive" pokemon ranked higher, Chansey's pretty one-dimensional and it's not like it has much going for it besides (as I said before) sitting there, tanking some hits, and seismic tossing.

My thoughts on a couple of the mons being discussed:
Mega Altaria S -> A+ - Agree. To be honest, Mega Altaria was probably good enough to be S up until a couple of months ago, but the metagame is shifting in a direction that simply makes it easier to be checked. If you look on offense, you're seeing a lot of Mega Scizor (handles DD sets easily), Talonflame (check in general), Weavile, Klefki, Heatran, etc...it's not often that you see a team unprepared for opposing Mega Altaria (most even have every variant checked in one way or another) now. Then if you look at "the most consistent playstyle" (stall, shoutout tele) there are a shitton of fat cores that often have Skarmory, Quagsire, Amoonguss, Talonflame, and even other checks like Heatran, so the metagame isn't too kind to Altaria as of late and I wouldn't mind seeing it dropping due to simply being less effective and checked my more common things than it was beforehand.

Mega Alakazam A -> A+ - Agree. Mega Alakazam is a premier balanced breaker and it can also do a number against just about any team without Chansey or Mega Scizor (add Mega Sableye into that list if it happens to lack Dazzling Gleam, which most forgo for Calm Mind or another move tbh). I know it's frail physically, but it doesn't struggle to get in as much as one would imagine when you look at it in practice and when it gets in, it generally does work if a focus blast or two can land. Sure, there are checks and counters as I referenced before and yes, it can be revenge killed by faster scarfers and strong priority, but in order for that to happen it generally is killing something first in order for the revenge killer to get a free turn in, so Mega Alakazam can realistically pick apart a couple pokes on offensive teams that are unprepared if played well and it can be an even better tool against balanced if it's passive or lacks something to outpace it or a Mega Scizor, so I certainly think Mega Alakazam is good enough to rise to A+.

Starmie A -> A- - Agree. With Tornadus-T being as common as ever and Weavile still on the rise, the spinning star isn't as easy to slap onto teams that need spin support now and it certainly isn't as effective when this happens. The standard defensive build also finds itself a bit too passive (yes, it has Scald, but that's about it in terms of offensive presence) considering that it grants Hoopa-B, Latios, Manaphy, and many others come in for, more or less, free bar the 30% burn chance which doesn't totally ruin any of these (although it's quite bothersome for each, especially physically oriented Hoopa-B, that's just the nature of Scald - the point about defensive Starmie being lackluster in terms of offensive presence still stands). I've also seen the LO offensive set quite a bit on the ladder during OLT (specifically on the sash offense team that I think Cosine built) and while it does a lot of damage with analytic and good coverage, it finds itself struggling to get in and if it has to spin, then it isn't going to be able to do much offensively at all due to it being quite fragile and incapable of getting free turns. A drop to A- seems appropriate given these circumstances.

 

[Vxy]

Just going to chime in on Starmie because that's the only Pokemon on this slate that I have a lot of experience with.

Starmie A -> A-: Agree.

Offensive sets aren't as good anymore as they were when Starmie originally moved up to A. Weavile is really common, which sucks for it considering it revenge kills easily or switches in on a Rapid Spin. The main problem I find with offensive Starmie is that it's just so easy to wear down with Life Orb recoil, and the hazards it switches into to remove. It's also (usually) a Keldeo check for offensive teams, so Starmie's taking damage there, further wearing it down. I think one of my biggest problems with offensive Starmie is that if it lacks Recover (which many do), then it's so prone to residual damage. Ferrothorn + Tankchomp is a popular and effective hazard stacking core that punishes Rapid Spin. I find it more underwhelming than Defog in most cases because Rapid Spin is, at the most basic level, an attack, which means Starmie is going to take an extra 9-10% Life Orb recoil, which wears it down even faster. I guess my main problem with it is that offensive Starmie is so easy to wear down, it often can't spin more than once. If it does, it's usually just going to get off a Rapid Spin, die to some form of contact damage and since it didn't survive it won't get rid of the hazards, so its pretty unreliable. Right now, I just stick to Lati@s and Excadrill in sand which I find is a lot better.

As for defensive Starmie...ugh, I've always hated that set. I used it once and I was so disappointed, I never used it again. Sure, it may be the most reliable spinner for balanced teams, and it gives a nice Keldeo check, but is that worth it for all the weaknesses it brings? I mean it's so passive it gives a free switch to so many dangerous Pokemon that you absolutely don't want to give a free switch to. Off the top of my head, there's Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, CM Clefable, Refresh/Heal Bell Mega Altaria, SubDD Mega Gyarados, Thundurus, Manaphy, Hoopa-U to an extent, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Suicune, CM (Mega) Slowbro...yeah I think you get my point. It usually just adds more things to cover than things it covers.

 

[Radio_Active]

OK, I'm only going to give a short answers on the others, but a big one on M-Zam:

M-Alt

NOOO, and I will say that again if necessary.This thing has around (counts) 8-9 viable sets, and each of these sets could be a lure. Yes it lacks the power of M-Zard but that does not mean it is outclassed. It literally needs 0 support, by virtue of its GREAT typing.

Heatran

Read above post. Now, Heatran is basically, has pretty much the same things as M-Alt, and the only thing it lacks in is speed and a water weakness. DO NOT DROP

Smearge

YES, please unrank it. Nuf said.

Starmie

I'm neutral to this, however I think people are over exaggerating the lowness of A-

HUGE M-ALA THING

OK, most people will disagree to this but... said people are really underestimating Encore. The best set, in MY opinion, is Signal Beam/Shadow Ball, Psyshock, Encore, Focus Blast because, this set hits pretty much everything. People say M-Sab counters it, but it cannot switch in as the following calcs suggest:

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 27.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 158-188 (61 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So picture the scenario:
M-Sab comes in, M-Ala uses Shadow Ball
M-Ala uses Shadow Ball, Sableye is forced to Recover
M-Ala uses Encore, Sableye Recovers again

Now, you get a free switch into your secondary win con, and M-Ala barely took any damage. Getting it in is not hard, since your probably going to use it in offense - meaning offensive pressure, meaning a good amount of opportunities to switch in. Also, it destroys Offense. Yes, it needs support, but guess what? everything else in A+ needs it as well. This Mon stands out in A, and it should move to A+. That said, if it doesn't go up, I won't mind.

EDIT: The example is flawed, but the basic idea still remains: you deal damage to a pokemon to force it to heal back, and then Encore does the rest.

 

[Kutscher]

You cant encore mega sableye, unless he comes against megazam in its regular form

OK, I'm only going to give a short answers on the others, but a big one on M-Zam:

M-Alt

NOOO, and I will say that again if necessary.This thing has around (counts) 8-9 viable sets, and each of these sets could be a lure. Yes it lacks the power of M-Zard but that does not mean it is outclassed. It literally needs 0 support, by virtue of its GREAT typing.

Heatran

Read above post. Now, Heatran is basically, has pretty much the same things as M-Alt, and the only thing it lacks in is speed and a water weakness. DO NOT DROP

Smearge

YES, please unrank it. Nuf said.

Starmie

I'm neutral to this, however I think people are over exaggerating the lowness of A-

HUGE M-ALA THING

OK, most people will disagree to this but... said people are really underestimating Encore. The best set, in MY opinion, is Signal Beam/Shadow Ball, Psyshock, Encore, Focus Blast because, this set hits pretty much everything. People say M-Sab counters it, but it cannot switch in as the following calcs suggest:

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 27.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 158-188 (61 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So picture the scenario:
M-Sab comes in, M-Ala uses Shadow Ball
M-Ala uses Shadow Ball, Sableye is forced to Recover
M-Ala uses Encore, Sableye Recovers again

Now, you get a free switch into your secondary win con, and M-Ala barely took any damage. Getting it in is not hard, since your probably going to use it in offense - meaning offensive pressure, meaning a good amount of opportunities to switch in. Also, it destroys Offense. Yes, it needs support, but guess what? everything else in A+ needs it as well. This Mon stands out in A, and it should move to A+. That said, if it doesn't go up, I won't mind.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Lanturn Unlisted -> D Now this might seem weird at first glance, but I assure you that Lanturn has a niche, if little, in OU. First, while it has mediocre 58/75 defenses, it's large 125 HP base stat compensates, making it a very bulky mon if invested. Volt Absorb allows you to completely wall those pesky Electric Types such as Thundurus or Raikou, but also to switch into Rotom-W's very predictable Volt Switch to heal 25%, also causing the opponent to lose a lot of momentum. Lanturn also takes on the role of a cleric through Heal Bell while crippling the Sweepers that might try to set-up on it with Thunder Wave or with Scald. Yes, Lanturn is outclassed as a wall by many other mons or supports such as Chansey, Clefable, and so on, but it fills the unique role of a Electric-Type wall while also bringing Heal Bell support to the table. In my opinion, it at least deserves to be D rank.

EDIT : Lanturn can also stop Charizard-Mega-X (provided it doesn't switch in on +1 DClaw) with Thunder Wave, even after one DD :

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 190-225 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 285-336 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT 2 : Lanturn also makes for a nice keldeo check.

 

[Analytic]

M-Ala uses Encore, Sableye Recovers again

Magic Bounce tho lol.

A<A+

The current metagame is really favored by M-Alakazam atm. With the introduction of Hoopa-U, the metagame has shifted slightly towards being more fast-paced, offensive minded. With its incredible speed tier, godly SpA Stat, and more than decent coverage, M-Alakazam thrives. Paired with Spikes users such as Klefki, M-Alakazam can pick off weakened mons with relative ease. It can put in a lot of work against balance teams too. It also has access to nice moves in Encore and Taunt, which allow it to function pretty well against balanced teams too. It's ability, Trace, comes in handy pretty often(tracing Swift Swim, Prankster, Sand Rush, Intimidate, Rough Skin, Multiscale, etc) and is a pretty nice ability to have. Definitely A+ worthy for me

 

[jbtc10]

Defensive Starmie is still good; you're probably using a mediocre and imo outdated EV spread. Forget speed, it needs to be physically defensive to be of any proper use as a bulky spinner in the current meta. The spread I use is 252 HP, 216+ Def, 40 Spd. The 40 Spd lets it outspeed Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill outside of sand.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Starmie: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Something that can take the strongest move from a fearsome balance breaker (and therefore wall the most common double prio set), spin against Heatran, Hippo, Garchomp, check a decent amount of other things and threaten scald burns is still very good in my book. And for any problems you have with it such as giving free switch-ins to [insert scary mon here], there's a good chance that Starmie has a weapon in its movepool that can easily slip into that 4th moveslot to deal with said issue. Things like Zard-X and Hoopa can be T-waved, Altaria can be bopped with an Ice Beam, Pursuit users are risking getting burned with Scald, etc.

That said, Starmie is fine to drop to A- if you so wish it to. It does have flaws (i.e. pursuit weakness) which could be used to justify that slight drop.

 

[serperioriscool]

Defensive Starmie is still good; you're probably using a mediocre and imo outdated EV spread. Forget speed, it needs to be physically defensive to be of any proper use as a bulky spinner in the current meta. The spread I use is 252 HP, 216+ Def, 40 Spd. The 40 Spd lets it outspeed Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill outside of sand.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Starmie: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Something that can take the strongest move from a fearsome balance breaker (and therefore wall the most common double prio set), spin against Heatran, Hippo, Garchomp, check a decent amount of other things and threaten scald burns is still very good in my book. And for any problems you have with it such as giving free switch-ins to [insert scary mon here], there's a good chance that Starmie has a weapon in its movepool that can easily slip into that 4th moveslot to deal with said issue. Things like Zard-X and Hoopa can be T-waved, Altaria can be bopped with an Ice Beam, Pursuit users are risking getting burned with Scald, etc.

That said, Starmie is fine to drop to A- if you so wish it to. It does have flaws (i.e. pursuit weakness) which could be used to justify that slight drop.

How does defensive starmie have a fourth slot?
It NEEDS Recover / Rapid Spin / Reflect type (sometimes) / Scald (or ice beam)

 

[jbtc10]

How does defensive starmie have a fourth slot?
It NEEDS Recover / Rapid Spin / Reflect type (sometimes) / Scald (or ice beam)

You just answered yourself. It only needs 3 moves; Scald, Recover and Rapid Spin. Reflect Type is indeed a cute and often useful move, but when you're playing balance and you can't afford to give [insert scary mon that you don't have a counter to here] a free turn, then other moves can be more attractive and useful to have than Reflect Type.

 

[Alfalfa]

I heard discussion about Starmie dropping, and I heavily disagree with this. Starmie, as a hazard remover, applies a lot more pressure than Latias, who is currently in the same rank as Starmie, can against opposing teams. All Latias can do is Draco and then encourage something to come in and take advantage of it; while Healing Wish sounds appealing, it is literally the only reason you would use Latias, as otherwise, Latias is very easy to take advantage of. While Starmie doesn't have the Draco nuke, Analytic + great coverage puts way more pressure on opposing teams, since Steels and Fairies are quite common. Starmie is not dropping below Latias right now, it is so much better and is much more difficult to take advantage of.

 

[thesecondbest]

Mega Altaria S -> A+ I can actually elaborate further on this one, drop. I'll post again if needed when not on mobile.
Mega Gyarados A+ -> A Drop I tried using it but it's just too weak. Defensive set is nice though.
Heatran A+ -> A No opinion I don't use this.
Mega Alakazam A -> A+ No opinion, I use the non mega a lot more.
Weavile A -> A+ rather see bisharp drop than this rise. Like I mean obviously this is at least as good as bish if not better but its usage is at the point where every team has something for it but it still puts in work so it can rise. Although I'd personally prefer dropping bish idc too much.
Starmie A -> A-A- Yes this thing is ass if defensive and offensive isn't even that strong it just punishes switches. Drop it.
Smeargle D -> Unranked Holy shit why does everybody hate this. "Oh shuckle is better at webs it has no niche" Hello? This thing gets spore, and to beat taunt, nuzzle, a BETTER twave- and twave is op. Like Azelf gets up rocks and almost kills something with boom (then again everybody hates that too), but Smeargle neutralizes something with spore and can get up multiple hazards. If Blissey and Jellicent can get ranked for imaginary niches on stall, then why can't Smeargle? Despite how much I'm typing out in defense pf the poor painter I don't really care so since everyone else hates it fine.

 

[TheyCallMeAdolf]

Defensive Starmie is still good; you're probably using a mediocre and imo outdated EV spread. Forget speed, it needs to be physically defensive to be of any proper use as a bulky spinner in the current meta. The spread I use is 252 HP, 216+ Def, 40 Spd. The 40 Spd lets it outspeed Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill outside of sand.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Starmie: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Something that can take the strongest move from a fearsome balance breaker (and therefore wall the most common double prio set), spin against Heatran, Hippo, Garchomp, check a decent amount of other things and threaten scald burns is still very good in my book. And for any problems you have with it such as giving free switch-ins to [insert scary mon here], there's a good chance that Starmie has a weapon in its movepool that can easily slip into that 4th moveslot to deal with said issue. Things like Zard-X and Hoopa can be T-waved, Altaria can be bopped with an Ice Beam, Pursuit users are risking getting burned with Scald, etc.

That said, Starmie is fine to drop to A- if you so wish it to. It does have flaws (i.e. pursuit weakness) which could be used to justify that slight drop.

Sorry, but somebody needs to explain to me why the fuck you would EVER run 0 speed starmie (0r 40 speed w/e). The spread you're using gets outsped and 2HKO'd by specs keldeo after rocks, and being able to check/counter keldeo is one of the main reasons to use defensive starmie. Anyways, I agree with the starmie drop. The defensive set is extremely ppassive, and the offensive set is very easy to wear down or pursuit trap with mons like weavile and scarf-tar being very common right now.

 

[bludz]

Weavile A -> A+
Yeah, it's time. This thing has one of those almost unmatched STAB combos with a blazing speed tier. I guess I'd just say that when building a team that Weavile is just about as big of a threat as anything in A+ and moreso than A. It's mostly pretty linear similar to Bisharp but it's one of those things that does its job even if you know what it's packing (and it does have some variety in the final moveslot).

Heatran A+ -> A
No. This thing is simply a behemoth and won't drop unless we have more fat waters running around than UU. It is ultra reliant on leftovers recovery but is immune to Sandstorm and BOTH types of status that inflict damage. Defensively it can be taken advantage of but still walls so much. Offensively it's pretty strong and has great sets like Choice Scarf - can still use bulk and typing to switch in on things but be still a threat to clean late game - and stallbreaker - gets a kill against just about any defensive team provided you hit Magma Storm. One of the premier rock setters in the metagame as well, this isn't due for a drop.

Mega Alakazam A -> A+
This is a very interesting one. I think Mega Alakazam has been underrated for a while and may very well be the best mon in A outside of Weavile. It's absurdly strong with good coverage and decent utility options, and it's super fast. Keeping in mind that a lot of offense gets dismantled by weather, Mega Zam is a very strong win condition that isn't walled by a lot and is primarily threatened by priority attacks. I personally believe it is worthy of A+ rank on the premise of a faster paced metagame combined with its common answers (Clef, Scizor) being heavily pressured these days. While priority is abundant, Zam still functions fairly well as a special wallbreaker too so it isn't solely reliant on cleaning late game.

Mega Gyarados A+ -> A
Yeah, I think this should drop. I kinda disagreed with the rise originally but Mega Dos kinda just flows with the tides. Basically when everyone forgot that it could run a DD + 3 attacks set it became good when you started bopping slightly weakened Keldeos at +1. Unfortunately it's still walled by a decent number of things and while it has great bulk, its moves are just low base power making it harder to sweep with. This is sort of a borderline case potentially but with Thundurus being really good again as well, I think it should drop.

 

[You...You...]

Mega Altaria S -> A+: With everyone carrying two to three checks on every team, and it having less and less set-up opportunities, Mega Altaria just isn't that effective anymore. It needs a lot of support to break its counters and checks which are quite common and easily fit on teams. All of this was true about MAlt several months ago (though I thought it should drop several months ago, but its final nail in the coffin has been the rise of Scizor, both Mega and Non-Mega. Drop to A+

Mega Gyarados A+ -> A: I haven't really used this recently so take this with a grain of salt but I'm against this dropping. The thing about Mega Gyarados is that it nearly always retains its usefulness even when not sweeping, something that not a lot of sweepers can boast, due to its excellent bulk and ability to switch between two typings that encompass different mons. When it is sweeping these traits also give Gyarados ample set-up opportunity and once set-up it can be hard to stop (which is true for most sweepers but more so for Gyarados due to substitute and aforementioned bulk).

Heatran A+ -> A: No. Heatran retains its usefulness and versatility now as much as ever with its unique tools and typing that make it one of the most splashable mons in the metagame. SpDef still is a useful 'mon that condenses a bunch of essential team roles due to its typing, bulk and utility, nothing has changed for Scarf, Magma Storm is on the rise, and so on. A lot has already been said about this so I won't say anymore except that pokemon like Heatran are useful in pretty much any form of OU and tbh I don't think its ever going to drop from A+ this generation unless something huge happens. Stay in A+

Mega Alakazam A -> A+: Definitely. Even with its low bulk, its speed tier is amazing now that Hoopa-U has made this into a fast, offensive metagame. Rise to A+

 

[jbtc10]

Sorry, but somebody needs to explain to me why the fuck you would EVER run 0 speed starmie (0r 40 speed w/e). The spread you're using gets outsped and 2HKO'd by specs keldeo after rocks, and being able to check/counter keldeo is one of the main reasons to use defensive starmie. Anyways, I agree with the starmie drop. The defensive set is extremely ppassive, and the offensive set is very easy to wear down or pursuit trap with mons like weavile and scarf-tar being very common right now.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You're not really meant to calc with rocks up with Starmie since it's usually going to be keeping them off your side itself. Also, just a few EV's in SpD can eliminate that already small 2HKO chance, which is compounded by the 80% Hydro Pump accuracy. Whether or not you run max speed Timid on Starmie has little to do with how good a Keldeo counter you are. In my experience, I've found bulk investment has made defensive Starmie a better and longer lasting asset overall.

 

[dice]

speed does matter lol.. u can never assume ur starmie finna be in pristine condition coupled with the fact that the calc already displayed it dies to some high rolls..... what??????? outspeeding thunderbro is pretty important at times too.... super fat starmie seems bad.

 

[trc]

also

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryYou're not really meant to calc with rocks up with Starmie since it's usually going to be keeping them off your side itself.

well starmie has to take rocks damage to spin them away .__.

 

[jbtc10]

There are a number of rock setters like Heatran and Hippo where you aren't taking any rocks damage, you're switching in as they go up. In any case, I'm saying the physically defensive spread is worth using and has different merits to the standard one. So what if you can't outspeed thunderbro and do a measly 35% with Scald before dying? That's not something I feel is worth sacrificing a ton of bulk to achieve. Another example:

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 297-351 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (guaranteed if Adamant)

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Starmie: 214-253 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Starmie: 144-169 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

T-wave Bold Starmie is essentially a Zard-X counter. It just has a lot of surprising utility applications going for it which are really appreciated by balance and bulky offense teams (and even stall as well).

Everyone has basically admitted that the standard defensive Starmie set is significantly less effective now than it used to be (which I completely agree with), hence other sets are being explored to adjust and this is one such set I've had good success with so far and one which people may agree could prevent Starmie from dropping (such that the offensive set isn't the only viable set it has).

 

[Delibird Heart]

defensive starmie vs Char X stuff

You know, this is also something Lanturn can do (which is part of the reasons I nommed it last page, even though I forgot to mention it, I guess I'll edit it in) while also having access to Heal Bell :

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 190-225 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 285-336 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So I don't see Starmie staying A just because it has a niche that any Bulky Water type can fill better when the Offensive sets should be the reason to play Starmie in the first place, would it be the LO or the CM one. Defensive Starmie isn't a good set with it's only OK bulk and it's disadvantageous type : it's extremely vulnerable to the ever common Knock Off and can easily get Pursuit trapped. If Zard X is preventing you from sleeping at night then run Slowbro or even Bulky Gyarados. I'm not saying that Starmie should drop because of this, but that it isn't a point you should be trying to use to justify Starmie staying A.

 

[jbtc10]

Neither Lanturn or Slowbro have the vital ability to remove hazards, and the former has no reliable recovery either so Zard-X only needs to Dragon Claw it once on the switch for it to no longer be able to counter it next time, so it's not a viable answer whatsoever. Starmie can provide a lot of support: removes hazards, counters Keldeo, Medicham, Zard-X, can cripple switch-ins and deter set-ups with burns and paralysis and is able to keep itself healthy (with both HP and status) throughout the match.

I already said that Starmie is fine to drop to A-, I just wanted to dispel the notion that any kind of defensive set on Starmie isn't good anymore. The standard one is indeed quite dodgey now, but there are viable alternatives.