Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Taliheim]

Okay, let's actually start some decent discussion here. (says the person who actively participated in the recent Volc discussion.)

A -> A-: Disagreed. While Gengar's a real pain to get onto the field, once it is on, something's dying. The fact that it has fantastic SE coverage in the current metagame along with the freedom to run a supporting move (or Icy Wind for even better SE coverage) means that it becomes a massive threat to both offense and defense. Stall has to be wary of Substitute and Taunt, Offense has to b wary of Will-O-Wisp if it does have a switch-in, and Garchomp, Landog, and Tornadus need to be wary wary of Icy Wind. In other words, the only real problem with Gengar is that it's very hard to switch in, as its bulk is only just enough to save itself from common priority. (I'd actually support a move back up to A+, but it just dropped a cycle or two ago, so I won't try and pursue it.)

A -> A-: Agreed. Simply put, M-Slowbro gets easily overwhelmed, even on the physical side. But that's only from my experience playing against it; I've never really used it myself, so take this with a grain of salt.

B+ -> A-: Agreed. it's a fantastic stallbreaker that deals with the common stall teams seen recently quite well, along with acting as a great support Pokemon with things like Heal Bell under its belt. If you decide to run Thunder Wave, Togekiss can also avoid getting Gothitelle'd if played right.

A- -> B+: Agreed. Not only are people starting to realize that Shaymin's not that different from it, but its typing is easily exploitable by the offense in the current metagame; it's still a good pick for balance teams, but it's starting to become more of a liability against offense until someone techs scarf celebi and I think a drop is needed to reflect that.

B+ -> B: Disagreed. I'll be honest, the only thing it really has over Megacham is an extra 10 base speed and higher Special Defense, but to me, that's enough to keep it from dropping. In a metagame where offense has gotten more popular, the ability to speed tie with Pokemon like the Latis and M-Diancie can be invaluable. It also still pulls its weight against bulkier builds very effectively, although megacham does outclass it in that respect.

B+ -> B-: Agreed. While I personally think that i should simply drop to B and not to B-, people finally seem to be coming around to the fact that despite its ability, it's not actually that good in Rain due to Mega Slot problems. Outside of rain, it's too slow to be much of an offensive threat and only threatening Stall teams, and as a defensive Pokemon the lack of Leftovers and reliable recovery wear it down really, really fast.

 

[Srn]

Yeah that's the problem with mlop. It can't simply break through its own checks like clefable can t-wave venu/tran/rest of the tier or how char-x just uses SD to steamroll anything slower.
Mlop has power-up punch at best, and its checks can still cripple, phaze, or kill it. It simply won't break through stuff like slowbro, clefable, and hippowdon on its own, and needs support from teammates to handle slower, bulkier builds. That's why it's fine where it is.

Another off-topic nom i'd like to make is Cobalion C+-->C

I really only see this thing used to counter bisharp and set rocks, a role which faces quite a bit of competition from bulky chomp and hippo.

As a steel-type, it can hardly check dragons. Garchomp is a hard check, and it can't do much back to dragons without a pissweak hp ice. Latios straight up does half with draco to cobalion, and cobalion is slower+the best it can do back is iron head or thunder wave. Char-x melts it and kyu-b earth power has an 81.3% to OHKO.
As a steel-type, it doesn't really check fairies either. Mega Diancie cleanly 2hko's with its stab, and Mega Gardevoir has a good shot at OHKO'ing with 1 spike. Cobalion's iron head also has a 25% chance to 2hko clefable, so clef can pretty much just t-wave and recover until para and proceed to set up or just switch out and break through when it comes in again. Mega Altaria also takes 60-70% from iron head and does 70%+ with a +1 jolly return, hardly qualifying cobalion as even a check. Special variants will blow straight through it of course. And last but not least cobalion is almost 2hko'd by AV azu play rough.
As a physical attacker, it has no reasonable chance of breaking through common walls such as lando-t, slowbro, quagsire, and mega-sableye, it'll be hard pressed to even make a dent in defensive skarmory or hippo. The most it can do is toxic or volt switch, and neither are surefire ways to even annoy physical walls.
As a fighting type it can counter bisharp but loses to weavile knock off+low kick most of the time. It does a good job checking some other less prominent dark types, like mega sharpedo or tyranitar, but others like m-gyara can just set up on it in regular form and be fine most of the time. And keldeo is an excellent check to all the above, as is any other fighting type with any bulk (hera, conk, fuck even defensive nape isn't bad)

Maybe it could be a cool pivot with volt switch but its hard-stopped by pretty much any ground.
Maybe it could use SD but it has way too many other things it wants to do. Thunder wave (which is kinda sad when every ground switches in on you for free), toxic, sd, close combat, iron head, volt switch, stealth rock, hp ice, etc. It has to pick 4 of all of those it wants to mess with, and without a certain move its just fodder for a different third of the tier that'll require around 2 mons to check/break.
Maybe it could make good use of its speed tier but its general lack of power (90 base attacking stats) and mediocre stabs don't carry you too far.
It's not as if offense is lacking options to get rid of it either. Lando-t, garchomp, gyarados, mega-manectric, mega scizor, starmie, thundurus, mega-hera, victini, volcorona, and char-y can all take a hit, set up on/kill/take another and kill it, and there countless things that can revenge kill it like psychic latios, specs keldeo, torn-t, etc etc etc.

It's an average fighting, a shit steel, a terrible pivot, and outclassed in its extremely specific roles. I really dislike cobalion and think it should move down :]

 

[thesecondbest]

So clefable is in S simply because T-Wave makes it so it theoretically has no counters, and because it's splashable? Then why not put Thundy-I in S? Prankster Twave though! IT has so many customizable sets, GKnot, Knock Off, HP flying, Nasty Plot, Taunt, and I'm sure I'm missing some.
And I'm serious about this, a lot of stuff gets twave, so I don't see the justification for Clef in S. Speaking of Twave, lop starts off with limber. Oh man the value. Sub PUP is a great sweeper, Lop is a fantastic revenge killer, and besides M-Zam and M-Aero no non scarfer can outrun and OHKO it. Plus it has healing wish to assist your team, while something like Manaphy provides little utility. I wouldn't mind Lop in S for these reasons, but when I play with it it always seems to fall just a bit short. So I think more discussion would be nice on this one. Healing Wish for a stall breaker to hit full health (like Taunt Tran) and a great matchup vs offense make bunny very easy to put on a team.
And drop Celebi and Gallade 110%, idc about the other noms. Also why the hell is Chesnaught higher than Wobb? If you don't want to raise Wobb, please drop Ches.

 

[Funbot28]

Clefable was not only put in S because of T-Wave, it can sweep with CM, set SR reliably, wall setup sweepers in Unaware and is an amazing glue mon for many teams. Thundurus-I has no way near as much flexibly and centralization as Clefable, so a comparison between them shouldn't be made.

 

[MrAldo]

So clefable is in S simply because T-Wave makes it so it theoretically has no counters, and because it's splashable? Then why not put Thundy-I in S? Prankster Twave though! IT has so many customizable sets, GKnot, Knock Off, HP flying, Nasty Plot, Taunt, and I'm sure I'm missing some.
And I'm serious about this, a lot of stuff gets twave, so I don't see the justification for Clef in S. Speaking of Twave, lop starts off with limber. Oh man the value. Sub PUP is a great sweeper, Lop is a fantastic revenge killer, and besides M-Zam and M-Aero no non scarfer can outrun and OHKO it. Plus it has healing wish to assist your team, while something like Manaphy provides little utility. I wouldn't mind Lop in S for these reasons, but when I play with it it always seems to fall just a bit short. So I think more discussion would be nice on this one. Healing Wish for a stall breaker to hit full health (like Taunt Tran) and a great matchup vs offense make bunny very easy to put on a team.
And drop Celebi and Gallade 110%, idc about the other noms. Also why the hell is Chesnaught higher than Wobb? If you don't want to raise Wobb, please drop Ches.

You failed to understand why clefable is far more splashable than thundurus-I?? First of all, thundurus-I isnt splashable at all. Splashable implies that it can be into pretty much any team with little to no trouble. Thundurus demands hazard removal support and sincerely it doesnt fit on teams outside heavy offense and some bulky offense due to the unviable utility of prankster t-wave.

Lol, t-wave. You think is because of that?? Amazing abilities, a moveset to dream of, just needed to run a single different move to get past its checks and counters. Moveset customizable to whatever the teams needs, doesnt need hazard removal, etc, etc. You just nitpicked the most dumb argument to drop clefable from the S rank it actually deserves.

Mega Lopunny isnt splashable at all, your argument falls apart when you consider the mega slot which already implies a huge opportunity cost. Is one of the better megas definitely, but splashable? No, not at all. Clefable has no opportunity cost, thats why it is so splashable. Period.

Mega Lopunny isnt S rank either. It will always eat through offense but tankchomp is more prevalent than ever, breloom making a comeback, shaky weavile check, mega alakazam on the rise etc etc.

 

[Flamer]

I think Henry's recent post really highlights a current issue of this thread. The fact of the matter is that the current council members rarely make any sort of effort to 1. actively engage with this thread to keep the place on topic and 2. Get involved with nominations to drive good discussion. Previous iterations of this thread, be it alexwolfs, trcs or AMs, have always had much more interaction between the council members and the thread. Heck, I remember the days when council members like Jukain, Gary2346, McMeghan, ben gay and others would constantly pop into the thread and comment on current posts and even discuss the councils intentions, while also responding to poor nominations in a way that didnt create arguments. They werent even the leaders of the thread and they were inputting far more. Heck, AM gave up being the council head because of too many commitments yet still makes more of an effort to deny nominations and put his thoughts down than any of the council members. Just to prove a point, lets look at how active our current council members are.

TDK: Last post, Aug 31, 2015
Henry: Last post: Oct 1, 2015
Tesung: Last post, Sept 1 2014
Sugarhigh: Last post, Aug 31, 2015
Destiny Device: Last post, Nov 9, 2014
TheEnder: Last post, Nov 17, 2014
dice: Last post, Sept 2, 2015

Now before you valiant keyboard warriors pull out your weapon of choice to defend yourselves note that I am in no way insinuating that these guys are not involved behind the scenes, I know many of them to be active members of many other areas in the community and I can say without a doubt that they discuss this stuff privately but looking at the activity of each of the council members inside this thread, its not hard to see why users like Moose get annoyed about a lack of responses. There may be a legitimate reason behind not responding to the nom but the lack of effort is truly astonishing for people who are considered to be the 'experts' on the topic and are supposed to be driving positive discussion. Ive often heard the statement that you guys are not obligated to respond to the thread and it should not be expected of any of you to explain your decisions. Thats completely correct, Im not paying you for any kind of service so I shouldnt feel obliged to get anything from you. But if that is the case, why are you even the leaders of this thread if you dont put in the hard yards and give your opinions on the matter? At best Ive seen the occasional sarcastic response to bad nominations but rarely will any of you actively put forth any sort of detailed opinion on the current nominations. The best way to garner good discussion has always been through high profile users making detailed posts about a particular mon or responding in a non-humiliatory manner to poor posts, while it may be tiresome to do stuff like this it really is part of the responsibility which you guys took on when you agreed to be a council member.

I have immense respect for the work you guys put in behind the scenes but all that work really means nothing if you cant translate it to some sort of visible product. Ill use the example of a particular political party who during their term did a many good things behind the scenes including keeping the nation out of recession, significantly decreasing unemployment and lowering education costs. They were ultimately voted out the next term simply because none of these actions were ever openly mentioned and hence the general public felt like nothing was being done (They realised soon afterwards though when the next party in office cut jobs, raised taxes and removed HEX fee caps but thats neither here nor there). If you want this place to be better please actively update us on current happenings, its not that much of a chore to do so.

 

[GH[O]ST]

I think Henry's recent post really highlights a current issue of this thread. The fact of the matter is that the current council members rarely make any sort of effort to 1. actively engage with this thread to keep the place on topic and 2. Get involved with nominations to drive good discussion. Previous iterations of this thread, be it alexwolfs, trcs or AMs, have always had much more interaction between the council members and the thread. Heck, I remember the days when council members like Jukain, Gary2346, McMeghan, ben gay and others would constantly pop into the thread and comment on current posts and even discuss the councils intentions, while also responding to poor nominations in a way that didnt create arguments. They werent even the leaders of the thread and they were inputting far more. Heck, AM gave up being the council head because of too many commitments yet still makes more of an effort to deny nominations and put his thoughts down than any of the council members. Just to prove a point, lets look at how active our current council members are.

TDK: Last post, Aug 31, 2015
Henry: Last post: Oct 1, 2015
Tesung: Last post, Sept 1 2014
Sugarhigh: Last post, Aug 31, 2015
Destiny Device: Last post, Nov 9, 2014
TheEnder: Last post, Nov 17, 2014
dice: Last post, Sept 2, 2015

Now before you valiant keyboard warriors pull out your weapon of choice to defend yourselves note that I am in no way insinuating that these guys are not involved behind the scenes, I know many of them to be active members of many other areas in the community and I can say without a doubt that they discuss this stuff privately but looking at the activity of each of the council members inside this thread, its not hard to see why users like Moose get annoyed about a lack of responses. There may be a legitimate reason behind not responding to the nom but the lack of effort is truly astonishing for people who are considered to be the 'experts' on the topic and are supposed to be driving positive discussion. Ive often heard the statement that you guys are not obligated to respond to the thread and it should not be expected of any of you to explain your decisions. Thats completely correct, Im not paying you for any kind of service so I shouldnt feel obliged to get anything from you. But if that is the case, why are you even the leaders of this thread if you dont put in the hard yards and give your opinions on the matter? At best Ive seen the occasional sarcastic response to bad nominations but rarely will any of you actively put forth any sort of detailed opinion on the current nominations. The best way to garner good discussion has always been through high profile users making detailed posts about a particular mon or responding in a non-humiliatory manner to poor posts, while it may be tiresome to do stuff like this it really is part of the responsibility which you guys took on when you agreed to be a council member.

I have immense respect for the work you guys put in behind the scenes but all that work really means nothing if you cant translate it to some sort of visible product. Ill use the example of a particular political party who during their term did a many good things behind the scenes including keeping the nation out of recession, significantly decreasing unemployment and lowering education costs. They were ultimately voted out the next term simply because none of these actions were ever openly mentioned and hence the general public felt like nothing was being done (They realised soon afterwards though when the next party in office cut jobs, raised taxes and removed HEX fee caps but thats neither here nor there). If you want this place to be better please actively update us on current happenings, its not that much of a chore to do so.

Did you read the opening post? It specifically says that this thread is merely a forum in which regular users can post their opinions - any opinions - regarding the rankings. The way this supposedly works is that the council members are the brain trust actively monitoring the metagame and adjusting the Rankings accordingly, regardless of whatever we post here. Our thoughts are potentially nothing. They are just here for the council members to sift through for good points. The council members don't have much reason to "point us in the right direction" or convince us. I stopped posting about Volcarona once I learned they weren't planning on moving it up. It's that simple.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think I am capable of holding my own discussion without anyone holding my hand. This is supposed to be at topic mainly for us, not the council members who I assume discuss this stuff somewhere else. The problem isn't the lack of council members' post. If there is any problem, it is the fact that people get butthurt and/or condescending

The visible product is the Ranking list we have on the first page lol.

 

[AM]

The ranking team already talked about getting more active in thread but many of us have irl priorities as well Flamer . This isn't some sort of revelation as it's being made out to be, Henry acknowledged this in a conversation we had.

Did you read the opening post? It specifically says that this thread is merely a forum in which regular users can post their opinions - any opinions - regarding the rankings. The way this supposedly works is that the council members are the brain trust actively monitoring the metagame and adjusting the Rankings accordingly, regardless of whatever we post here. Our thoughts are potentially nothing. They are just here for the council members to sift through for good points. The council members don't have much reason to "point us in the right direction" or convince us. I stopped posting about Volcarona once I learned they weren't planning on moving it up. It's that simple.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think I am capable of holding my own discussion without anyone holding my hand. This is supposed to be at topic mainly for us, not the council members who I assume discuss this stuff somewhere else. The problem isn't the lack of council members' post. If there is any problem, it is the fact that people get butthurt and/or condescending

The visible product is the Ranking list we have on the first page lol.

Your point is somewhat valid but you're way overrating the meaning of the OP where it's all a generalization that's more of a blanket statement across multiple ranking threads than really just a concrete rule. Sifting through good points I'll be blunt is almost impossible when you could look at last pages and see people trying to legitimately make arguments of Espeon, a guy saying Galvantula is more viable than Volcarona, and other stuff that literally makes me want to smash my head into a tree. Yeah this can be "partially" due to less ranking team involvement and the team involvement happens a lot through IRC and skype (skype in my case, the m-sableye point fostered in IRC). It's much more simple due to how fluid the interaction is there's not really wrong with that. Tbf though they, ranking team, should be addressing discussion in a relatively decent direction.

I agree with Flamer's post for the most part but the way Moose responded to his nom being rejected about Wobb is a huuuuuge reason why these guys don't like commenting on the thread, cause we get tons of things like that bitching about some pixels moving up or down ._. . Yes commitments was a factor but posts like those was a big reason why I dropped out as the leader when it's being made out to be such a thankless thing to do in the first place, still is and I believe it's more thankless as time goes on to the point I have even unwatched this thread and only pop in for the sake of moderating, as in now. Regardless of his idea of being ignored that's not the way you get a point across while calling this thread a pile of garbage. It makes everyone less willing to really give a shit and have the focus be more towards drama about absolutely nothing substantial in the long run. As Henry said if you have a point to make to that level where you're spewing out your frustration, not sure why you're frustrated lol it's mons and when you all realize that like I have in the long run maybe you can chill out, take it up with him. As sarcastic as he is, he's open to having a discussion instead of creating assumptions.

Not a whole lot else to say other than me just replying to another one of these comments.

 

[GH[O]ST]

That's what I'm saying. This thread is inconsequential enough for actual decisions that the council doesn't even have to sift through everything

At best, this thread is for them to sift through, not really converse with us. There is no reason for them to convince us or respond to various thoughts.

If they see good discussion or points, they can choose to consider it. But again -the onus us on is to discuss.

My post was in response to the idea that there is a problem with the fact that the brain trust doesn't engage much in this topic. There is, of course, nothing wrong with posting here , but its not a problem if they don't.

 

[AM]

I would rather have people part of the team post honestly but I have come to an understanding outside of irl stuff why most dont so I dont really sweat it seeing both sides of it all.

With that said lets stick to ranking discussions now and use some common sense when posting thanks.

 

[Bluemargay]

Here's the problem with Mega Lopunny. It is borderline useless against physical walls that aren't weak to fighting. Yes it's a fighting type that beats Mega Sableye, but what can it do to Clefable? Its only boosting move is Power-Up Punch. Not to mention unlike S ranks, it's weak to Priority. Talonflame is still a thing and Pinsir seems to be rising lately. Even Clefable can usually take a bullet punch from Scizor if it's at full health. As an offensive threat, it finds itself outclassed by Gallade, which can not only boost, but can run leaf blade to lure Quagsire. The only things it has going for it is speed and scrappy.

 

[Taliheim]

Here's the problem with Mega Lopunny. It is borderline useless against physical walls that aren't weak to fighting. Yes it's a fighting type that beats Mega Sableye, but what can it do to Clefable? Its only boosting move is Power-Up Punch. Not to mention unlike S ranks, it's weak to Priority. Talonflame is still a thing and Pinsir seems to be rising lately. Even Clefable can usually take a bullet punch from Scizor if it's at full health. As an offensive threat, it finds itself outclassed by Gallade, which can not only boost, but can run leaf blade to lure Quagsire. The only things it has going for it is speed and scrappy.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All Lopunny needs is a little bit of chip damage and it can safely 2HKO, meaning it can't switch in; the max/max spread is also only really seen on Unaware clef, which can be worn down much easier. Also, that speed you mentioned is a really big breaking point, since it means Offense can't just overwhelm it with fastmons; they need to either hit it with priority, safely switch in their Scarfer to simply scare it out, or switch in their bulky pivot to take a lot of damage it's probably not going to get back. Yes, its effectiveness can be lessened vs. bulkier builds, but it's still useful, and with the increase of offensive teams in the current metagame, Lopunny really shines.

 

[Clair]

Here's the problem with Mega Lopunny. It is borderline useless against physical walls that aren't weak to fighting. Yes it's a fighting type that beats Mega Sableye, but what can it do to Clefable? Its only boosting move is Power-Up Punch. Not to mention unlike S ranks, it's weak to Priority. Talonflame is still a thing and Pinsir seems to be rising lately. Even Clefable can usually take a bullet punch from Scizor if it's at full health. As an offensive threat, it finds itself outclassed by Gallade, which can not only boost, but can run leaf blade to lure Quagsire. The only things it has going for it is speed and scrappy.

So what you're saying is you want your physical attacker to be extremely fast, reasonably powerful with unresisted coverage, and effortlessly break through physical walls all at the same time?

M-Lopunny is primarily an anti-offense tool. You can use PuP or SubPass to pressure bulkier teams, or there are also these other things called teammates.

Anyway, a nom of my own:

B -> B-

Dot points cos I'm lazy:

Pros
-Stupidly strong Crunch
-Speed Boost in base form to give it a situationally easier time sweeping than certain comparable Dragon Dancers
-Being a physically offensive Dark means it partners well with Weavile, Bish etc

Cons
-Uses the Mega slot.
-Once it M-Evolves it loses Speed Boost, so it usually only gets one chance to sweep.
-Terrible defenses, poor defensive typing (especially for a physical attacker because it can't absorb Scald / Plume). Basically it has no defensive presence besides potentially Protect-countersweeping stuff like Latis.
-Not fast enough to pressure offense without Speed Boost, so it's often forced to Protect and potentially give a free turn.
-Stopped easily by Brave Bird / Mach Punch / increasingly common priority Thunder Waves
-STAB combo walled by common offensive threats
-Not powerful enough to break dedicated physical walls
-M-Gyarados is better 9 times out of 10.

Meta's got worse for it basically, since most of the prep for Zard-X, Dark spam, the increase in Rain, and increased offense in general hurts it.

 

[Jaroda]

The reason why feedback from the council is important because if their criteria is well defined it helps users tailor and structure their arguments for their nominations more effectively. Granted, shit posts are shit posts, people will always post without reading the rules, nobody expects this to change, and that's a digression. But how often have you seen people try using definitions of rankings in the OP to justify their nomination only to be battered by people saying that the definitions are not to be taken to literal extremes and far less emphasized? Or how about if users make a nomination for something that, may very well be suitable to the rank they're proposing, but their argument focuses on the pokemon in a vacuum with calcs and fails to acknowledge meta trends, provide replays, or define its verifiable niche compared to pokemon of similar roles?

Personally, I very much appreciated when rankings change and the council's rationale was posted for each change. It gave the entire forum an understanding of the basis for the changes and provided context of why things deserve to move up, down, or not at all. I love hearing when a nomination is a good one and one is bad. Now everyone knows that IRL is a thing and sucks and nobody should get on somebody's ass over it, but I also understand the yearning of greater cohesion and consensus because, when it comes down to it, everyone here wants good discussion. It's why we come here. And I think it's encouraging that there are users that care about the thread being run well because they care about the community, and we know the leaders do too, as this is strictly volunteer work for them outside of administrators. So everyone is privileged to have this tool to utilize and benefit from, so let's just ultimately remember that, be grateful, and return to making and critiquing nominations. :)

Mega Lopunny - Lopunny is not S caliber to me. Now it has some nice luxuries in terms of sufficient and powerful dual STABs, Fake Out for megavolving safely, a very safe speed tier to abuse, and a SR resistance. It doesn't need a whole lot of support, but it doesn't carry teams like Char X and, as somebody put nicely, it can't effectively handle its own checks like some others. It isn't an overwhelming force that can 6-0 teams by itself. It's one of those mon that you'll often have compensated for haphazardly by preparing for other threats, sort of like Bulk Up Talonflame, Scarf Keldeo, Tankchomp, Landorus-T, lots of things commonly seen on teams that check it. But it doesn't need dedicated answers to prevent being steamrolled.

Mega Swampert - I'm very ok with him dropping to B rank. People put it nicely in that Swampert isn't really required for a successful Rain team compared to not having at least Omastar/Kingdra/Kabutops. Its niche is certainly its Thunder Wave immunity and raw natural bulk and power. Its arguable the best Rain cleaner, having the raw stats to finish off most things in the 75% range and survive priority and many scarf attackers, but not the best Rain sweeper. It requires a lot of finesses to manage to find the time to megavolve Swampert and keep your Rain setter alive by end game without giving your opponent a long term advantage. If Kingdra gets in however it can 2HKO anything it wants to if it clicks the right move. And as some people said, you may really benefit more from having something like Mega Heracross to break through a Mega Slowbro or Ferrothorn. Simply put, I think there's too much cost for benefit to be among other B+ critters.

Mega Gallade - I think this and Swampert are indeed a tier below megas like Garchomp, Heracross and Medicham. I think Gallade is actually more comparable to Mega Metagross than anything, both offensive physical Psychic types in the 110 tier. I hear some people say that Gallade has some better bulk than Medicham, which is a bit irrelevant considering the roles they perform. But if that's something you're touting then Gallade is far outclassed by Metagross' bulk and typing. 68/95/115 Psychic/Fighting compared to 80/150/110 Psychic/Steel is night and day, not to mention Gallade's strongest STAB lowers its defenses anyway, so that's kind of a moot point really. Both have priority, but Metagross' is STAB and boosted by Tough Claws. But at the end of the day I think the big thing is that it needs to get a SD in to be worthwhile over other mega choices and it just fits better in B than B+. Sorry if my reasoning here isn't the best.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, it's very anti-offense similar to Mega Alakazam and Mega Alakazam saw a rise, why shouldn't Mega Lopunny? It's already been established that it's forth move slot is pretty much limited to what your team struggles with. Toxic, Encore, Thunder wave, PuP, Substitute, Baton pass. It's got a lot of utility options that'll help it push past balance/fat stuff. But mainly it should be used for breaking offence, when facing bulkier team it can use either its utility or teammates to eliminate the opposition. Mega Lopunny paired with Toxic Spikes is an amazing option as you'll weaken almost anything that you'd usually struggle with, Fat chomp, Hippo, Slowbro, MAltaria and Clefable. The PuP especially set especially will allow you to break past all of these mons with Toxic spikes up as the three with the largest defence lack the ability to get rid of the Poison forcing them to spam recover.

Assuming PuP on the switch

+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after poison damage <- you get hit by Rocky helmet + Rough Skin twice, unfortunately, but you do beat it before it'll even be able to attack, after PuP damage and Poison damage.

+1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 104 Def Mega Altaria: 216-255 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You're really, really cutting it short here. Between PuP, the initial poison and Return...

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage Clefable is still really pressured, especially if you've gotten up two layers.

Seems like a pretty solid S tier pokemon when it's so fucking anti meta right now, and balance has very few options to handle it, especially with a tiny bit of support.

 

[Albacore]

Lopunny can actually break through Hippowdon js. +1 HJK easily 2HKOs even the most phys def Hippowdon you will find, and it can't OHKO back. A lot of people are really underestimating Lopunny's ability to overwhelm its checks imo.

Not saying Lopunny should be S, although I could kinda see it there, reason being that a huge amount of teams rely on just one Pokemon, either Garchomp or Hippowdon usually, to deal with fast or prio-using physical attackers like Lopunny, Talonflame and Bisharp, to the point where it's very easy to ensure a Lopunny sweep by stacking these physical attackers on the same team and just watching stuff die.
However, the same applies to the aformentioned Bisharp and Talonflame (which have much less opportunity cost), so it's difficult for me to see Lopunny in S and these two still in A+.
And while Lopunny physical spam teams are very effective at the moment, it's not a complete necessity for those types of builds, unlike, say, Sableye teams, which almost completely rely on its support to properly function. Basically, Lopunny can be subsituted for something else much more easily than Sableye or even XZard can.

Lopunny is still a very influential part of the metagame, but it sorta has to share the throne with other stuff, and therefore isn't as uniquely defining as any S rank at the moment imo.

edit: kinda ninja'd by AllJokesAside on the Hippowdon front but my main point still stands.

 

[Goodra]

I think for people who know me know how much I love Mega Lopunny and how I almost always use it on my offensive and balance teams. It's no doubt I have a personal bias towards the kicking playboy bunny. That being said I think A+ is a fine spot for it as I believe it is just a little short of S rank. Like Albacore mention a few other Pokemon in the same rank can mostly fill it's role without taking up a mega slot and can still get walled hard by a few Pokemon. Though it can check several threats it is also a rather shaky check to many like Weavile. It does have a few unique moves in it's favor like Encore to force switches on setup sweepers and stall. PuP is a nice addition as well letting it break through some it's checks. Still I think it just falls short of S rank but there is no doubt in my opinion that it's one the best Pokemon in the A+ rank and will probably have itself cemented in that position for a long time.

 

[bludz]

I don't like the lop / zam comparison as offense killers because I find it pretty flawed. Lop is actually better against most offense (barring weather) despite being slower because of priority, more spammable stab and its ability to take hits slightly better. Zam on the other hand pressures bulkier builds more because of its superior power. Both can stallbreak to an extent (though Taunt is available to zam which is usually superior to encore) and both can boost to sweep (CM, pup). Then there are other obvious differences like special attacker (not bothered by rise in tank chomp) vs physical one

Both being fast sweepers doesn't mean that a zam rise should inherently mean a Lopunny rise; hell mega aero and Mega mane didn't rise along with zam and nobody is making the case that they should.

 

[Kibblecat]

Lopunny can actually break through Hippowdon js. +1 HJK easily 2HKOs even the most phys def Hippowdon you will find, and it can't OHKO back. A lot of people are really underestimating Lopunny's ability to overwhelm its checks imo.

Not saying Lopunny should be S, although I could kinda see it there, reason being that a huge amount of teams rely on just one Pokemon, either Garchomp or Hippowdon usually, to deal with fast or prio-using physical attackers like Lopunny, Talonflame and Bisharp, to the point where it's very easy to ensure a Lopunny sweep by stacking these physical attackers on the same team and just watching stuff die.
However, the same applies to the aformentioned Bisharp and Talonflame (which have much less opportunity cost), so it's difficult for me to see Lopunny in S and these two still in A+.
And while Lopunny physical spam teams are very effective at the moment, it's not a complete necessity for those types of builds, unlike, say, Sableye teams, which almost completely rely on its support to properly function. Basically, Lopunny can be subsituted for something else much more easily than Sableye or even XZard can.

Lopunny is still a very influential part of the metagame, but it sorta has to share the throne with other stuff, and therefore isn't as uniquely defining as any S rank at the moment imo.

edit: kinda ninja'd by AllJokesAside on the Hippowdon front but my main point still stands.

Apologies for something of an elaboration on someone else's argument but, for completeness' sake and for the sake of anyone too lazy to check anything other than Hippo now that Lop's ability to break it's checks has already been mentioned: after a PuP, M-Lop can do the same with HJK to Skarmory, Jirachi and physical Def Bronzong, as well as max-def variants of Mega-Scizor (to give a few more examples of physical defensive things that aren't weak or resistant to HJK). None of them can 1HKO back from full with the most common moves, although granted it's not asking much to have a little prior damage on it for Skarm to bop it with Brave Bird (and yes, without some attack investment on Skarm that does require some prior damage) or even for lop to be closer to 60 ish % to take a Gyro from Bronzong (to pick on my less common/viable but equally applicable example), but the fact that not everything's magically at 100% (as AM would put it) applies the other way too and if Skarm or Def M-Scizor with some chip damage on them switches into a PuP, they could easily be putting themselves into the HJK range before they can even get a chance to scare Lop out. I guess what I'm agreeing with here is that Lop's ability to muscle through her checks can't be stated enough when it comes to justifying her viability, because the fact is if a few more of the physical walls in OU were to become hard stops to her, she'd not even be anywhere near as viable as she as because while retaining her presence against offence, she'd become a matchup based dice-roll.

Regardless, I think A+ is still fine for Lop - of course, the above mentioned (and elaborated on) fact that Lop can very well muscle past her checks if allowed to set up a PuP is a very important point, and I can't stress enough how much I agree with that. However, I think the biggest issue here which is keeping her in A+ is that she still doesn't maintain the same metagame presence of the S ranks to the point where she's over prepared for, yet any well built team can still, in practice, comfortably check her while their checks remain healthy, and it comes down to a question of skill from that point onwards which is an awkward slant to put into a viability thread when we're discussing the ranking of the fairly straightforward Lopunny, NOT the ranking of her checks.

In fact, a good comparison in A+ to her check-muscling thing is SD Sand Rush Excadrill. He's not forced to run SD on every rush-sweeper set and won't always find a chance to set it up anyway because of how limited his sand turns can be, but when he gets an SD up most of his checks can be broken down and ultimately become non issues if they have any prior damage (which, as late in the game as Exca should be setting up, is pretty likely). Heck, at +2, even SpD Skarm is 2HKO'd by Adamant LO Rock Slide, and Phys Def comes close too, which is made even more effective by the chance of a flinch hax. Similarly, Lop isn't always going to get a chance to set up PuP as against anything that's not either switching, weak to it, or extremely near death, it's an almost dead turn and doesn't allow it to blow through whole teams in the same way that Manaphy can after finding a turn to TG (or ZardX finding a turn to DD). When Lop isn't forced to run it and it's really just there to fill a last slot as a variant of it's standard set, while maintaining equal effectiveness on the non-PuP sets, I don't really think it's ability to beat it's checks using PuP is enough to base a ranking rise on.

I suppose what I'm saying is that despite the apparent focus on PuP sets here, I don't think anyone's making the case for it being a whole sub rank more viable than any of it's other sets (and if they are, great, make a case, I'll probably disagree with it. Speaking strictly as someone who does use PuP quite a lot). And sets without PuP are, by elimination of the arguments based on it being made, pretty fine in A+.

 

[Vert]

mega lopunny is basically what i call a "trade" pokemon. if you are using fake out + quick attack, you can send heavy offense packing. power up punch is some good stuff turning hippowdon into cheese and using stuff like bisharp and weakened fodders as set-up bait. i never use ice punch because i personally find it a crappy option. mega lopunny isn't really a centralizing 'mon. you have to take account of it in teambuilding, but it isn't something comparable to manaphy, charizard x, and clefable which can completely dismantle you despite you having a counter which puts much more emphasis. mega lopunny is fine where it is.

mega sharpedo is much better than the stuff simply based off the fact that its checks are really easy to wear down such as keldeo for example. the ones with recovery can be dealt with a simple change in movesets. skarmory will lose to hydro pump, clefable will lose to poison jab with some prior damage, garchomp and chesnaught die to ice beam, and then you have normal stuff like mega scizor and ferrothorn in which you can be hipster hidden power [fire]. the last thing that pisses me off is seeing the mega gyara - mega sharpedo comparison. mega gyarados is pretty much asking for prior damage while setting up making it unable to beat priority users. in addition to this, it sits at a mediocre base 81 speed tier which kind of sucks. running dd taunt for stall is what differentiates it imo, but then you necessitate more team support against offensive builds.

 

[Gary]

Yeah Lop to me is like a perfect A+ Pokemon. It has all the right qualities to be very influential in the metagame, has the potential to completely tear apart certain builds depending on what set it runs, and just provides a lot of overall amazing offensive utility. What keeps it from S, at least in my opinion, as most people have said, its moveset determines what playstyle its going to be successful against. Sets lacking PuP are almost always going to lose to bulkier builds, as it will fail to Hippo, Slowbro, more phys variants of Clef, Skarm, Mew, defensive Mega Venu, and even Mega Scizor to an extent. Without Sub or Quick Attack, offense will have more effective answers to it in Mega Zam, Talon, and Scarfers/priority. BP and Encore are nice utility moves but are more team dependant (Encore can be nice for Pursuit trapping Bro as u can Encore it into Slack Off, while BP can help accomplish much the same). I also agree with Vertex on how Ice Punch is a pretty subpar option. It's really only useful for Rocky Helm Chomp and Lando-T, while everything else even Gliscor is usually dealt with PuP + Return. PuP just lets Lop break through balance so much more effectively, while Ice Punch doesn't really do anything for it outside of nailing the aftermentioned threats. To be honest I'm not even THAT impressed with Quick Attack either as it already has a very good matchup against offense regardless, and once again, QA leaves Lop hard walled by a lot of shit on bulky offense/balance.

Lop just doesn't have all the tools to be an S rank Pokemon. Zard-X has the potential to sweep through practically any archetype with the right support, and yet it barely needs much support to be effective. Manaphy is troubled a bit by offense and some variants of stall, yet it's bulky enough to eat up hits, has a great defensive typing which lets it set up on a lot of shit, and with one turn of set up, it is practically OHKOing anything that doesn't resist its coverage moves or isn't fat as fuck like Chansey, Ferro or KyuB. And Clef is just extremely splashable + has a relatively great matchup against any playstyle thanks to its versatility and bulk. Lop isn't that splashable, nor does it have the traits that Zard-X or Manaphy posses as an offensive Pokemon to be considered an S tier threat. It's definitely one of the best mons in A+ no doubt other than like Chomp and maybe Keldeo, but it just doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as the other S ranks in most situations.

 

[Arik]

Mega Swampert - As much as I love this thing I still think it should drop to B. The fact that ability activates the second turn after evolving is a huge drawback. Kabutops does a great job too anyway. Besides , Mega-Hera , Mega Scizor seem better choices for Rain teams anyway imo.

Mega Gallade - This thing should drop too, It's like a middle ground between Medicham and Lopunny but really struggles to do either of their jobs as well as them since it needs an SD up in order to be a threat , Definitely warrants for a drop.

 

[Flamer]

I dont really have the time atm for a long post but Gothitelle should probably rise again. The fact its almost singlehandedly keeping an entire playstyle viable alone warrants a rise but considering it fits on a range of other teams as well pushes it just over the edge imo. If it should be anywhere it should be 1 rank above the rest of the prominent stall mons who reside in B.

Somebody pick up the slack here for me please :)

 

[Ruffles]

I don't really have that much time for a lengthy post either, but to add to Flamer's post, Gothitelle definitely should go to B+ rank.

Tbh, Gothitelle and Shadow Tag are extremely bizarre things. Gothitelle is not a Pokemon who can easily exert pressure on the opponent as soon as its on the field, or take at least 1-2 Pokemons each game such as Charizard X, but its humongous support that it gives to the team is unparalleled. Gothitelle doesn't even have to do anything, against anything except HO, the simple fact that Gothitelle is in the back of your team, gives you a huge advantage. And it's not that it gives support to specific Pokemon, its range is limitless. For example, the mere fact that you have Gothitelle means that Clefable, Manaphy, or Chansey cannot really stay in more than a single turn without risking the Gothitelle entering the field, trapping, crippling, and most likely eliminating. Pair this thing up with something that Stall only has Chansey to check, such as Kyurem-B, and you are already profiting.

While Gothitelle can easily break through the core of the opposing Balanced/Semi-Stall/Stall, it also supports these very playstyles. With Pokemon such as Manaphy, which invalidate anything slower with a single turn (except Unaware Clefable and Chansey if not RD), bulky teams really have almost no chance, except with the help of a handful of Pokemon, and Gothitelle is the most reliable of all. The almost unstoppable CM+RD Manaphy, is only stopped through Gothitelle, or a gimmick such as Seismitoed/Shedinja. And although NP Togekiss now carries Shed Shell, literally nothing on Stall can stop it bar Gothitelle.

Finally, Gothitelle's viability lies in the size of its scope. Bulky Poison-types such as Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur are eliminated through Psychic STAB, Clefable & Chansey are eliminated through Trick+Rest, Quagsire is eliminated through the same technique, but you need to invest in Def to avoid 3HKO, Heatran can be eliminated through Specs+HP Ground (not that bad actually), Ferrothorn through HP Fire, while many other Pokemons can be severely crippled, such as Manaphy, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Zapdos, Gliscor, simply by trading Items through Trick. And don't even get me started about how Gothitelle is literally the one Pokemon that has the easiest time setting up CMs and potentially sweeping.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

I want to nominate Thundurus-T from B- to B. As I'm aware Tornadus-I is in general a better mon, I bring a "new" set that is likely similar to his cousin, Tornadus-T

Thundurus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch/U-turn
- Focus Blast/Superpower
- Thunderbolt/Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]/[Flying]

As Torn-T is a much better mon in general with higher speed to thread HO, Hurricane spam, and Regenerator, it also adds electric weakness, while Thundurus gets a way to recover some HP and inmunnity to T-wave. This combined with 145 Sp Attack and modest nature makes him a good choice to manage stally teams, specially T-wave users like Klefki, Clefable, Ferrothorn, or Thundurus-I (I know this last one is not defensive but whatever). Electric type add no additional weakness, while Flyng and Steel resistances make him able to switch in vs some pokes Tornadus-T can't.

Mandatory calcs:

+2 0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 123-145 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 105-124 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Thundurus-T: 146-172 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[EDIT] Forgot to post the site i took this set sorry :P http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-v3-hoopa-unbound.3549842/page-3#post-6449232