Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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I never like arguments which use low accuracy as their basis tbh because on any move with 51% accuracy or more (i.e. most moves) you're more likely to hit than you are to not anyway. While if the move is close to 50% it probably isnt that good (the only slightly common one i can think of is Hypnosis), a move that has 70% accuracy is pretty reliable in the great scheme of things. Sure, misses suck, but honestly your ability to remedy the damage that those misses cause is a big part of what makes a player good. People act as if Hurricane, Focus Blast and Stone Edge never hit, and it just baffles me because i can honestly be reasonably comfortable clicking them most of the time anyway. Additionally, people seem to be forgetting that Torn usually clicks U-turn anyway, with it maybe luring something with its coverage options every now and again, to the point that you only really click Hurricane when the risk is low due to your opponent dying when it does hit (e.g. v.s. Keld) - leaving them forced out. Before I start my next sentence, I'm just gonna say thatI don't mean to pick on you in particular, but you are the most recent one and a perfect example of someone doing this. DoABarrelRoll's post shows exactly the kind of thing that I am talking about, using Hurricane's accuracy as the entire basis of his argument and saying that it makes it inconsistent despite the fact that the moves it normslly clicks are very consistent anyway, in addition to the fact that it achieves its goal in basically every game it plays in, and honestly if that isn't consistency then there is no such thing as consistency.

I personally agree with Bludz and co that it should be S rank in the current meta on the basis that it is more consistently effective at achieving its goal than than anything else in A+ imo.

The thing is that Torn-T, be it AV or LO, usually needs to revenge kill once per match. While I know Keldeo isn't really an issue due to Knock Off and enhanced special bulk, I wanna point at stuff like Mega Medicham or Heracross, which offense and balanced teams really struggle to switch into, and need them gone and fast. You can't just U-turn against them and hope they go to Raikou or Tyranitar.

Or (for LO variants) shit like Mega Slowbro which gets 2HKOed by LO Hurrimiss after rocks, but you actually have a 49% chance to land both hits and, well, if you don't... CM variants can roflstomp you. There's also DDD Mega Altaria which gets 2HKOed no matter the set, and Torn-T still outspeeds at +1... but again, Hurricane has 70% acc, and depending on the matchup, you may as well say GG if Alt gets to +2.

You can use Air Slash, but that move is pathetically weak (70 BP lmao) and for the lulz of it still has imperfect accuracy. Tornadus-T's U-turn capabilities, combined with its ability to outlast its opponents and luring some of its counters via Heat Wave or Superpower/Focus Miss makes it worthy of A+, but I'm not convinced at all that it's S rank.
 
I agree with your point. However, realize that there are three threats in OU that can set Weather and decrease Hurricane's accuracy to 50%. And all three of those threats are actually capable of dealing moderate damage to Tornadus-Therian.
Hurricanes accuracy is only decreased in the sun.

But on to the point of accuracy, it is definitely worth mentioning that torn-t does have that element of inconsistency that is uncharacteristic of the "S" rank. I think at the end of the day it may seem like torn is just really tough to take down and durable, lasting the whole game, but it never seems to be more than a nuisance that falls once it can no longer u-turn out. Its a very good pivot and has nice utility but I just see nothing that puts it into S rank. If anything did put it there, it would be its LO set which is admittedly very hard to switch into, but we come back to hurricane usually having to hit at least twice in a row for that to be a threat which is hardly reliable. I know accuracy seems like a weird reason to keep a mon out of S rank, but hurricane is what makes torn threatening offensively beyond just utility, and if you want to praise it as an offensive threat we need to deal with the reality that its inconsistent.
 
I never like arguments which use low accuracy as their basis tbh because on any move with 51% accuracy or more (i.e. most moves) you're more likely to hit than you are to not anyway. While if the move is close to 50% it probably isnt that good (the only slightly common one i can think of is Hypnosis), a move that has 70% accuracy is pretty reliable in the great scheme of things. Sure, misses suck, but honestly your ability to remedy the damage that those misses cause is a big part of what makes a player good. People act as if Hurricane, Focus Blast and Stone Edge never hit, and it just baffles me because i can honestly be reasonably comfortable clicking them most of the time anyway. Additionally, people seem to be forgetting that Torn usually clicks U-turn anyway, with it maybe luring something with its coverage options every now and again, to the point that you only really click Hurricane when the risk is low due to your opponent dying when it does hit (e.g. v.s. Keld) - leaving them forced out. Before I start my next sentence, I'm just gonna say thatI don't mean to pick on you in particular, but you are the most recent one and a perfect example of someone doing this. DoABarrelRoll's post shows exactly the kind of thing that I am talking about, using Hurricane's accuracy as the entire basis of his argument and saying that it makes it inconsistent despite the fact that the moves it normslly clicks are very consistent anyway, in addition to the fact that it achieves its goal in basically every game it plays in, and honestly if that isn't consistency then there is no such thing as consistency.

I personally agree with Bludz and co that it should be S rank in the current meta on the basis that it is more consistently effective at achieving its goal than than anything else in A+ imo.
Just because something "usually" hits does not mean it's reliable. It is also more likely than not that you won't get burned by scald: that doesn't mean you should freely switch azumarill in on it. While 30% is not as likely as 70% it is still fairly likely and you are going to miss hurricane pretty consistently, especially when you go for multiple hurricanes throughout the match. And using that logic of "anything >50% is more likely in your favour", tornadus only has a 49% chance of hitting two hurricanes in a row, meaning if you go for two hurricanes it is more than likely that you are going to miss at least one of them. This is a huge inconsistency; the fact that tornadus cannot reliably use its STAB is definitely a legitimate point, and I'm not sure how you can dismiss it on the basis of "it will usually hit". All of this means that tornadus cannot reliably output damage, and it is often relegated to using knock off/u turn.

As far as torn-t rarely using hurricane and just clicking u-turn most of the time, I'm gonna just quote Albacores post sicne he summed it up really nicely:
And people know this. Most Torn-T users rarely use Hurricane, instead favoring U-Turn. And you can play around that. If your opponent assumes Hurricane will miss, why should you assume it would hit? Seriously, keep Keldeo in on Torn-T and see what happens, from experience, they usually U-Turn. You can say that this is just relying on luck to beat it, but this isn't luck, this is risk assesement based on luck, which is a skill-based thing, one which helps playing with and against stuff like Torn-T. And besides luck is still a very important element which plays a huge role in viability. If Fissure were legal, woul Dugtrio be S rank? Probably not, since it would be very unreliable, and this goes for Torn-T too. So what you basically end up with is a Pokemon which rarely uses its only STAB, and I think it's pretty obvious why this is a problem.
Yes, the moves it clicks are usually consistent, but this is in part due to the unreliability of hurricane in the first place. The fact that tornadus-t cannot reliably use its STAB and only source of high damage output is a legitimate point that needs to be considered. Torn is an amazing 'mon (I would argue it's one of the best in A+), but a 'mon that needs to rely partially on luck to do consistent damage and to fulfill its role is antithetical to what an S rank mon is: Zard-X, Clef, Manaphy, and Sableye all perform their role extremely consistently, and tornadus simply cannot say the same thing.
 

Heatmor

Banned deucer.
Tornadus-Therian is durable, but I wouldn't say that Tornadus-Therian is very durable. It has 79/80/90 bulk, which is decent, but it isn't groundbreaking. It actually needs an Assault Vest for the most part if it is going to actually be able to really take special beatings. It can't deal lots of damage without LO, either.

Hurricane, Superpower, Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, Air Slash, Psychic, Iron Tail


Knock Off, U-Turn, Icy Wind


Taunt, Toxic, Rain Dance, Tailwind


From these, I would say that it's movepool is decent. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Tornadus-Therian has a slight case of Four-Moveslot Syndrome, which is why over half of these moves you will never see Tornadus-Therian use, and that other Pokemon do that job better.

TheyCallMeAdolf has a point about unreliability. All of the Pokemon currently in the S Rank as of now usually do not have to worry about any kind of accuracy issues, besides Sableye, albeit very rarely. However, all but one of Tornadus-Therian's most common offensive moves have an accuracy check of 90 or less. And Tornadus-Therian's only STAB is seldom used because of it's moderate chance to miss, which is why you'll have someone switch out a fully setup pokemon with an inaccurate move against a slower Pokemon who will die to said inaccurate move but can KO.
 
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Gonna post some thoughts on the nom so far.

Torn-t --> S Not Agree
Probably everyone just pointed out why it should stay in A+ and that's because the unreliability of its stab move. Let's look at every mon in S and look how consistent they are. Pick Clefable and doesn't matter how good you are playing your game, that mon is a god and can win alone even if your opponent is on the back. Zard X needs literally hazard support, then prey that you manage to play your entire game without letting it setup, because probably, your have 0 switchins :O. And so on for the other 2 guys named Msableye and Manaphy. Tornadus is just not that good, no matter what, but you will be always in the situation with the risky play and that is not an argument for every other S mon.

Azumarill ---> S Agree
This thing is a monster right now. It's such a wonderful mon. Let's build offense and no matter what , if you give your opponent a free switchin, something die to this thing. There are literally 0 safe switchin to the Band set right now (bar Mscizor) and it is so easy for it to find opportunity to fire a huge shot. It's not hard for this thing to actually put in work just because it is very bulky and can do massive damage back. You can keep it alive, even if low, to eventually clean with banded AJ. The defensive utility it has on an offensive team is also huge right now. It checks Zard X and Weavile, and both are a pain to deal with. It can also revenge kill Sand rush exca, Malakazam and Mlopunny, all huge huge threat to every offensive team. Seeing how common such threat are right now and seeing how hard is for an offensive team to switch into Azu and finally, seeing how Offense is a common playstyle right now, i feel like this thing deserve a rise.

Keldeo --> S Not Agree
I feel like it's not the time for a Keldeo rise right now. Looking back Azumarill and looking Keldeo i just think the former is more performing. The Keldeo switchins are so common right now and while I think it's one of the best A+, it just is checked on every game by the like of the Lati of Torn-t that you see on basically every team. Yes it can fish for burns and yes specs hydro does massive damage, but it is too easy checked and it sit on a just ok speed tier right now.

Hoopa --> S Agree
Not that sure on this, but i can see this happen. I feel the reason why hoopa should rise is because you actually need only the dark stab (special of phis is not important) and then choose what you want it to kill. It pairs incredibly well with every win condition just because every win condition is walled by something and with hoopa you can remove that something. Need Hippo away for you Lop or MMeta? Just pick Grass knot. Need the chomper away? Pick Hp Ice. The versatility it has let this thing be a great partner for basically everything and that's why i can see the rise happen. The defensive utility is not bad at all either. Yes, it has no resistances and shitty phis def, but when your team is weak to something like Malakazam or alakazam (threats that are difficult to switch into), you can just throw your Hoopa.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I think that mega-sab should drop back to A+. See suspect thread for reasons. Even pro-ban side argued that it is bannable on the basis of being unhealthy as opposed to actually being an incredible Mon.

tl;dr: Goth gone, so it isn't as good. Was already in the As prior to goth, etc.
 
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Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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Honestly most people realised that 4MSS was a garbage argument when Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick... it doesn't exist because you should be tailoring its set for the team anyway. Honestly, having that many options (not to mention that you forgot options like Icy Wind, Iron Tail and Tailwind - all of which have seen consistent use) is a point in its favor if anything because it makes it unpredictable as hell. The LO set is so stupidly difficult to scout for due to it being so freaking hard for anything to switch in on in conjunction with how much it is U-turning around and gaining momentum, regaining HP with Regen etc. that you will often not find out what its third and fourth moves until their targets bite the dust switching in on them. I think the key thing about Torny-T is that it is very easy for it to force its opponent into becoming predictable. You are often forced to predict a lot more when facing an LO Torny than you are as the user, putting the user at an inherent advantage every time they can bring it in, as a misprediction or miscalculation on the person facing Torny can often be forced into a predictable scenario. This ability to condition your opponent is something that very few other Pokemon in the metagame are capable of doing, and being able to easily bluff and condition your opponent to identify patterns which they don't know are there is a very powerful characteristic to have.

A scenario that I often play out as a Torny user is one where I face off against a team with Mega Diancie. If I am carrying Iron Tail (one of my favorite sets on this thing), Tornadus' ability to condition its opponent to a point where it feels comfortable consistently switching to Diancie to tackle it makes up a big part of my gameplan in these kinds of matches. By concealing my fourth move and sometimes deliberately not using it when the Diancie switch is obvious, I am able to reach a point where I am confident that any uncertainty is lost and KO the switch-in with Iron Tail in the space of between three and five U-turns.

Its consistency doesn't come from its ability to pivot, its ability to check threats X, Y and Z or anything like that. Tornadus is consistent in that it is the only Pokemon which can condition its target on a game-by-game basis to the extent that it does. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of its STAB or its supposed "4MSS" or anything like that, but rather on the sheer versatility that it has as a threat and its ability to achieve its goal in a match. While I respect why people have brought it up as a point, the fact is that what you will be using Hurrcane against things which either don't typically have much that it can do back to you or are threatening to other teammates when you don't Hurricane - meaning that in the vast majority of situations you are pretty safe just clicking it and basing your next turn on the result of that turn. I have a policy with Tornadus; if its weak to Hurricane, do not U-turn in around 95% of scenarios. This is a policy which has served me well in the past, and it is one which I will probably not drop in the near future simply because of how little "opportunity cost" (idk if you can really call anything opportunity cost in a world where even something as restrictive as mega evolution cannot be fully called opportunity cost) it has attatched to it. People have said "leave your Keldeo in on the Tornadus and watch the latter U-turn", but honestly if the Tornadus user U-turns in that scenario then they are most likely not making the optimal play because there is no cost to risking a Hurricane.

To address certain issues people have taken with my previous post, let me elaborate that I understand that accuracy does need to be considered. When something can lose games, it clearly needs to be taken into account. However, the reason I talked about it was because the way people have brought it up has blown the issue disgustingly out of proportion. When people use it as the staple for their argument it just makes me question how seriously I can take them in this kind of thread. While not everyone has been doing so, there are a handful of posts which demonstrate this to a tee. Quite frankly my post was more to demonstrate it being blown out of proportion with basic mathematics when I started writing it and it sort of spread out from there, with me referencing the post that I did in order to ensure that I got the point of scale across. Quite frankly I understand the frustration that people face with Hurricane, Focus Blast and Stone Edge, but I think the fact that I have only missed around six hurricanes and witnessed around eight missing on solo alts across the space of around four months (including any time spent "on tilt") is testimony to the point that I made in my post and is a big part of why I am able to put so much trust into the 70% chance that it will hit, and really a lot of what comes into playing this game well is this ability to trust your instincts regardless of if the balance is not in your favor. If I didn't and just posted that Tornadus isn't an S rank because I can't trust its STAB, I probably have to develop my battling mindset a little before posting in this thread. For fear of going off-topic, I'll just finish by saying to not misjudge the scale of the problem, because when weighed against all of Tornadus-T's other points it is really just a fraction of what should be considered and is not enough to push it down an entire sub-rank.

This will be my final post on the matter. Feel free to reply to this all you want but do not expect a response from me. My standpoint is that I view Tornadus-T as an S rank and I will not be shifted on that opinion without very good reasoning.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
gamer boy There are a few reasons as to why this isn't an instance where hax is being blown out of proportion:

1) None of its best moves have even decent accuracy. Hurricane and Focus Blast are both 70%, and Iron Tail is close behind. Even Heat Wave suffers from the 10% miss-rate. People have been arguing that this doesn't matter, because you don't need to use your attacks ever, but that is completely ridiculous. The biggest draw of Tornadus is that it can check everything by outspeeding + being strong. It cannot reliably check most of these things. fleggumfl 's assertion that you don't actually need to attack is ridiculous. We are not talking about losing tornadus in the "early game" to a hurricane miss; we are talking late game, where tornadus has to eliminate the starmie/keldeo/gengar/etc. that the opponent preserved to sweep your weakened team. How exactly is u-turning around going to help here? Good luck checking manaphy with that avest when you can't even land the hit to ko. It's unfortunate when you predict the keldeo to stay in, but your hurricane misses </3 The fact of the matter is that 30% of the time, you are going to lose the game, because tornadus is blind. This number gets even higher (51%) if they have more than one mon that you have to hit. It's hilarious that it is a viable strategy to preserve a mon that tornadus checks on the basis that you will win anyway half the time. "You should have set up a better end game plan" is not a legitimate claim given how difficult it is to pack on more than one fast, frail, late-game mon (alongside tornadus). Even if you do, chances are that you will still will need to rely on Tornadus to secure at least one KO during the battle, and it just can't do that. The problem even exists against slower teams when you would like to KO that +1 slowbro that you just sacked something to weaken, but you miss the hurricane and it recovers in your face and proceeds to sweep your team. Tornadus is cripple by its low-accuracy movepool, and the reason for that is because its primary role desperately craves reliability. Saying that it will "most likely" hit (and this isn't even true for 2+ uses) is silly, and you know it.

2) Tornadus allows the opposing team to play risky, because that risk is inherently lowered when facing tornadus. Against any other pokemon, staying in against something that can outspeed+ko you is a very risky play in most scenarios. If we were to stick an arbitrary train-of-thought number on it: let's say that keldeo v tornadus, the keldeo user thinks that there is a 60% chance that it will u-turn instead of hurricane. 40% of the time, staying in will be a misplay and will result in a dead keldeo. However, let's factor in hurricane's (or fblast, or iron tail, or etc.) accuracy. In reality, tornadus has a 28% chance of using and connecting with the hurricane. Even better is that the 12% is out of the opponent's control. This is more than enough to turn an objectively poor play into a not-so-bad one for the keldeo user, especially since tornadus' existence on a team (as a keldeo "check") implies that the opponent won't be too loaded up on other switchins.

3) Perhaps the biggest point: we are arguing about S-rank. If you are trying to say that tornadus is one of the absolute best, most consistent mons in the metagame, then a flaw as large as this absolutely deserves the scrutiny that it is receiving. It is nowhere near one of the most consistent mons in the metagame. It loses/hinders games in practice on a relatively regular basis, and even the best playing and teambuilding can't fully relieve you of that fact. Accuracy is the main focal point of the arguments against tornadus because without its unfortunate moveset, it would be S no-problem. If accuracy is its biggest flaw, I don't see why that shouldn't be the focus of an argument against it, so I don't really get your "I can't take you all seriously" comments :/
 
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Shrug

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MikeDawg said:
1) None of its best moves have even decent accuracy. Hurricane and Focus Blast are both 70%, and Iron Tail is close behind. Even Heat Wave suffers from the 10% miss-rate. People have been arguing that this doesn't matter, because you don't need to use your attacks ever, but that is completely ridiculous. The biggest draw of Tornadus is that it can check everything by outspeeding + being strong. It cannot reliably check most of these things. fleggumfl 's assertion that you don't actually need to attack is ridiculous. We are not talking about losing tornadus in the "early game" to a hurricane miss; we are talking late game, where tornadus has to eliminate the starmie/keldeo/gengar/etc. that the opponent preserved to sweep your weakened team. How exactly is u-turning around going to help here? Good luck checking manaphy with that avest when you can't even land the hit to ko. It's unfortunate when you predict the keldeo to stay in, but your hurricane misses </3 The fact of the matter is that 30% of the time, you are going to lose the game, because tornadus is blind. This number gets even higher (51%) if they have more than one mon that you have to hit. It's hilarious that it is a viable strategy to preserve a mon that tornadus checks on the basis that you will win anyway half the time. "You should have set up a better end game plan" is not a legitimate claim given how difficult it is to pack on more than one fast, frail, late-game mon (alongside tornadus). Even if you do, chances are that you will still will need to rely on Tornadus to secure at least one KO during the battle, and it just can't do that. The problem even exists against slower teams when you would like to KO that +1 slowbro that you just sacked something to weaken, but you miss the hurricane and it recovers in your face and proceeds to sweep your team. Tornadus is cripple by its low-accuracy movepool, and the reason for that is because its primary role desperately craves reliability.

2) Tornadus allows the opposing team to play risky, because that risk is inherently lowered when facing tornadus. Against any other pokemon, staying in against something that can outspeed+ko you is a very risky play in most scenarios. If we were to stick an arbitrary train-of-thought number on it: let's say that keldeo v tornadus, the keldeo user thinks that there is a 60% chance that it will u-turn instead of hurricane. 40% of the time, staying in will be a misplay and will result in a dead keldeo. However, let's factor in hurricane's (or fblast, or iron tail, or etc.) accuracy. In reality, tornadus has a 28% chance of using and connecting with the hurricane. Even better is that the 12% is out of the opponent's control. This is more than enough to turn an objectively poor play into a not-so-bad one for the keldeo user, especially since tornadus' existence on a team (as a keldeo "check") implies that the opponent won't be too loaded up on other switchins.
this is sort of curious to me. i was reading through some old threads and saw a crux one on "identifying a design philosphy". he had some strong opinions in that obviously but the main issue he was attacking was strategy vs tactics - teambuilding w/ strategy in mind vs. ingame tactical moves, specifically w/r/t their import on our metagame design. this seems like an example of that. no one plans startegically for a torn-t miss as a "check" to something, at least i hope not. perhaps as a risk-minimizalization method (id rather be weak to torn-t hurricanes which are dicey than more consistent mon y) but i rlly doubt ppl are factoring hax as a good method of beating torn-t from a build standpoint. but ur post cites the tactical side of torn-t almost in its entirety - sometimes, u argue, hoping for a miss is a stronger tactical move, and thus it should be lower. idk if that's good or bad - feels more personal. but can we agree that this is a case of a mon stronger sttrategically than tactically? and this debate is a debate between the two paradigms? how do u feel about strategy v tactics w/r/t other things, like scald?
 

this isn't the first time this nom has been made, and last time i really didn't agree with the idea that this thing's an S rank pokemon. however, recently i've been warming up to that idea. tornadus-t is just such an insanely versatile pokemon. its AV set has the perfect balance of offensive capabilities (speed + offenses), and bulk (av + it being not frail + nice typing). it has a multitude of coverage moves it can run like icy wind, heat wave, grass knot, sludge wave, iron tail, etc.. on both the av set and the more offensive life orb set. on the topic of life orb, having solid mixed offenses, a great movepool, nice speed, and longevity makes this thing a nearly perfect offensive pokemon. it has that unpredictability aspect with the potential to some of the aforementioned moves + the common stuff, as well as taunt to mess with its few "counters". oh yea, that's another thing worth mentioning...

this thing doesn't have that many counters; you're usually relying on beating it offensively. the main things that counter it are electric types like AV raikou, rotom-w, zapdos (which nobody uses anymore), manec, etc.. if you're a decent teambuilder, you're gonna have more than enough to beat these things lol; ik that isn't a great argument with a vr nom, but my point here is that this thing is capable of putting soooo much pressure on slow shit, and unlike other pokemon that do this, this thing isn't super frail and it gets regenerator, giving it insane longevity. fleggumfl did a great job describing this longevity on an offensive pokemon, so there isn't much of a reason for me to go on.

finally, this isn't stuff that has changed since last time torn-t was brought up, but i just think that both last time and this time so many people are against this due to hurricane being at 70% accuracy. i discussed this with bludz the other day, and we both came to the conclusion that this isn't much of a big deal because while 70% isn't perfect, it isn't shit. also (our main point), you don't even use hurricane as much as some of your other moves, specifically u-turn. with regenerator + nice speed + nice offenses, there are just so many nice opportunities for you to make an offensive switch out with no cost and the nice rewards of healing yourself + dealing damage to whatever your opponent has out on the field. hurricane isn't your main with torn-t; your main move is u-turn, so people should stop whining about hurricane being 70% accuracy.

i don't feel like discussing the other S rank noms, but on hoopa-u: it hasn't been that long since it moved from S to A+, so i think it'd be best to wait a bit before making this nom again... especially when the "nom" itself didn't really say anything that convincing while also lacking the stuff and content that the VR team has said they want in noms (unless something changed recently)~
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
this is sort of curious to me. i was reading through some old threads and saw a crux one on "identifying a design philosphy". he had some strong opinions in that obviously but the main issue he was attacking was strategy vs tactics - teambuilding w/ strategy in mind vs. ingame tactical moves, specifically w/r/t their import on our metagame design. this seems like an example of that. no one plans startegically for a torn-t miss as a "check" to something, at least i hope not. perhaps as a risk-minimizalization method (id rather be weak to torn-t hurricanes which are dicey than more consistent mon y) but i rlly doubt ppl are factoring hax as a good method of beating torn-t from a build standpoint. but ur post cites the tactical side of torn-t almost in its entirety - sometimes, u argue, hoping for a miss is a stronger tactical move, and thus it should be lower. idk if that's good or bad - feels more personal. but can we agree that this is a case of a mon stronger sttrategically than tactically? and this debate is a debate between the two paradigms? how do u feel about strategy v tactics w/r/t other things, like scald?
I don't really understand what you are saying here? I'll try to reply in the context that I think you are asking about, but let me know if I am a bit off-base.

I don't know that the separation between the two paradigms is relevant here. In the teambuilder, one function of tornadus is to provide a check to whatever set of mons, and that strategy is applied in battle. Tornadus is reliant on moves with poor accuracy (to check these mons). As a result, its ability to perform that strategy is hindered in both the teambuilder and in the game. In the teambuilder, you need to stack checks to many of the things that tornadus is supposed to be checking. In battle, you find yourself avoiding sending out tornadus at times because that accuracy can bite you. Limiting your tornadus use helps alleviate that poor accuracy (I hope that we know what is wrong with that premise), but no matter how much you click u-turn, you will need to go for the hurricane at some point, and that point is typically at the most crucial part of the battle in the later game. Stacking checks in the teambuilder helps to avoid this moment (still kind of funny that we should try to avoid attacking with tornadus), but it doesn't matter in that moment when you are faced with a keldeo that you need to score the ko on. As a result, tornadus is compromised in the tactical sense as well. Predicting a miss here is nothing more than an extra (positive) factor to add to the risk-reward play associated with tornadus to begin with (will it u-turn or hurricane?). There is a tangible feeling of angst when tornadus is your best mon to revenge something with, and you know that the best play (which will only come to fruition 70% of the time) is to go for the hurricane.

I don't see how scald is relevant at all.
 
If hurricane hit every time Torn-T would easily be S (or banned). But it doesn't. A+ is where he belongs. (Btw focus blast is fucking retarded. Use superpower on Torn-T...)

Keldeo and Azu are better in A+ than S. Manaphy is just more of a threat right now than both of them. It's good to have a rank separating them to show who is the most dominant water type in the tier.

Hoopa-U is similar to KyuB in my eyes. Incredibly powerful and almost singlehandedly prevents defensive teams from existing (IMO worthy of a suspect because of this) but not S rank because the metagame is too fast for it.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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Welp i'm very bored so i guess its time to share my opinion on the current S noms.

Torn-t to S
Absolutely no.
I think its being underestimated how stupid it is for your main way of dealing damage to be 70 accuracy. In case it wasn't clear enough from the discussion already; it's absolutely retarded. I can't believe how you could possible call this bird consistent when its only stab has the same accuracy as fucking focus blast. You might be impressed when you see all those pretty 2hkos Lo torn-t gets on paper, but then you step back and realize that many of those 2hko's dont occur HALF the time because hurricane is so fucking garbage.
Some people may argue: Hey you don't even use hurricane that much, u-turn is the move you use most anyways!!
Well isn't that special! the move I use the most is an unSTAB'd bug move with 70 base power that I run with a timid nature!
That aside, it just makes the game a lot more prediction based. The "threat" of the super consistent and accurate hurricane is supposed to force shit out for you to effectively u-turn, but it really doesn't because of how darn accurate it is. Hurricane is just so risky that u-turn is the better play in 7/10 situations, making torn-t somewhat predictable and somewhat of a shitty u-turner (compounded with the fact that its u-turns are weak as shit)
AV doesn't do much damage and LO is incredibly frail, and while its speed tier is super nice, and it has "longevity" and all that, it doesnt mean much if you stick around when you can't do damage 30% of the time anyway.
S ranked mons are supposed to be consistent threats that define the meta, but every playstyle can pack checks to this and its really not good at dealing damage; A+ is fine.

Keldeo to S
Nah
it's a fine mon in A+. Its very bulky for an offensive mon, and its typing is highly valued to check bish, weavile, scizor, etc but its just really well prepared for. That's really the only thing against it: there are an endless number of options to check keldeo no matter what kind of team you choose to build. Tangrowth, amoong, celebi, slowbro, slowking, starmie, lati twins, gyarados, azu, m.venu, mega alt, av torn-t, tentacruel, dragalge, i'm sure i'm missing a few too. I get that scald burns can annoy a great number of these mons, but its pretty tough to bring keldeo enough times early game to get the burns (which is luck-based btw...super reliable) needed and then wear those checks down enough to the point where keldeo finally breaks through them. It's a pretty rare occurrence in a battle for that to happen; from my experiences anyway.
Keld in general is pretty predictable too. Water/fight stab are dead obvious and it really doesnt do much more; the only other way it can be versatile is icy wind/some hidden power, which doesn't account to much.
It can be prepared for by any kind of build in a very easily, despite its power and defensive perks its really not an S rank threat.

Azu to S
Hmmm
On one hand, water/fairy is awesome typing, and its resistances and power are awesome to put in any kind of team. CB is insanely strong, AV checks tons of shit, and BD can blast through many of Azu's checks with a +6 knock off, leaving mega venu as the only real counter. Its strong, its bulky, and its only big flaw i'd argue is its speed. It's predictable, but it doesn't matter much when its STABs alone are enough to keep 80% of teams on their toes.
On the other hand, its effectiveness is overblown on paper. You'll see teams with lando-T and latios; both can 2hko with stabs and both can stomach one of your stabs, and you have to predict which one will come in. The fact that Azu's stabs cover completely different targets is both a blessing and a curse because its fine and dandy on paper but in practice, you have to correctly use every stab at the right time to get the full usage out of azu. Also, play rough misses :<
I'm on the fence for this one basically.

Hoopa to S
It really fucking pressures slower teams unlike any other; it's pretty scary how it does this. there really isn't much to say about it: insane movepool, insane base stats, super reliable and powerful stabs; hoopa has a lot going for it. Life orb and CB sets destroy balance teams of any kind, and despite teh fact that hyperspace alone 2hko's 95% of the meta, it can even run coverage to OHKO certain shit if they bother you enough. And then choice scarf sets have no switch-ins on offensive teams, and late game cleaning is a very valid prospect. My only gripe about it is that it provides no defensive backbone to a team unlike manaphy, which can check exca, talon, garchomp (if ice beam), heatran, and other shit while also breaking balance. But manaphy has no way to fix its speed problems because scarf manaphy is not and will never be a thing. You can tailor hoopa to shit on whatever you want it to, and that's worthy of S.

EDIT: regarding torn-t
LOL. idk how anybody can be playing the "it's not bad, u dont even hurricane that often" card given the high-stakes contexts that you will be hurricaning, and the fact that the only reason that you arent using hurricane more often is because of its accuracy.
This x10000
 
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Shrug

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MikeDawg said:
I don't really understand what you are saying here? I'll try to reply in the context that I think you are asking about, but let me know if I am a bit off-base.

I don't know that the separation between the two paradigms is relevant here. In the teambuilder, one function of tornadus is to provide a check to whatever set of mons, and that strategy is applied in battle. Tornadus is reliant on moves with poor accuracy (to check these mons). As a result, its ability to perform that strategy is hindered in both the teambuilder and in the game. In the teambuilder, you need to stack checks to many of the things that tornadus is supposed to be checking. In battle, you find yourself avoiding sending out tornadus at times because that accuracy can bite you. Limiting your tornadus use helps alleviate that poor accuracy (I hope that we know what is wrong with that premise), but no matter how much you click u-turn, you will need to go for the hurricane at some point, and that point is typically at the most crucial part of the battle in the later game. Stacking checks in the teambuilder helps to avoid this moment (still kind of funny that we should try to avoid attacking with tornadus), but it doesn't matter in that moment when you are faced with a keldeo that you need to score the ko on. As a result, tornadus is compromised in the tactical sense as well. Predicting a miss here is nothing more than an extra (positive) factor to add to the risk-reward play associated with tornadus to begin with (will it u-turn or hurricane?). There is a tangible feeling of angst when tornadus is your best mon to revenge something with, and you know that the best play (which will only come to fruition 70% of the time) is to go for the hurricane.

I don't see how scald is relevant at all.
you kinda hit on what i was saying, which might be my fault since i could have articulated it poorly. i was more refering to the strength of what tornadus can do in a strategy sense vs. the reality of what happens during games.

from a teambuilding perspective, torn-t can do a ton: it checks a bunch of mons, hits hard with hurricane, has bountiful coverage. u dont "need" to stack checks - that's just accounting for risk, which is indeed high - but the potential rewards are worth it in a lot of cases. on the obvious reverse side of the coin, torn-t is a very hard threat to deal with when you are building your team - you dont really know what it's going to run, it gains momentum easily vs a lot of teams, it checks a lot, it hits hard. when u build, ur gonna need several checks to this thing; most players will never account for hurricane misses when constructing a team. thus, they are stratgeically irrelevant (for this discussion).

your point, which is valid, focuses on how the tactical reality of torn is entirely different from the strategic sense. in battle, there are times where hurricane misses are a good play to wait for. this means torn-t is tactically worse in this situ. as u said, sometimes you dont bring in torn-t (even when the situ is such torn-t would serve its strategic purpose) because of tactical concerns - if this misses im done, etc. u cant play as aggressively with either torn-t or its partners because of miss concerns.

i guess the point i should have been clearer on: when you are examining torn-t in a sense "what this mon does to my team", u cannot assume hurricane misses are going to happen. if he hits three and your check was "pray for misses" you're entirely boned. this assumption of torn always hitting hurricanes (which most good players are going to make i think - i might be wrong) needs to be accounted for in your team. tactically, this doesnt hold true. a good player will account for hurricane misses on either side. that makes torn-t worse in battle than the (very real) teambuilder threat. so when ranking its viability we must choose if we're picking "how well it performs in battle" and "how scary of a threat is it to build around or with" which are (i feel obviously) different.

scald was something i was curious about bc it feels similar to me. i wasnt calling u out during any part of my post, i was just curious as to your thoughts. anyway scald is similar in the sense accounting in teambuilder for scald burns is super hard. if u want to strategically account for scald, your water-type switchin needs to have natural cure, or not care much about burns at all, or u need a heal bell-type user and a team which gives u enough time to use it. so u either take large contortions to do so (usually weakening or making more predicatble your team to account for a luck-based effect) or dont strategically account for it. but in battle, you have to tactically - sometimes it's best to sac a mon so your true counter doesnt get hit with the burn, or any such example where u gotta consider scald in your thinking. idk it just reminded me of the torn-t situ and i wanted your opinion ?_?
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
you kinda hit on what i was saying, which might be my fault since i could have articulated it poorly. i was more refering to the strength of what tornadus can do in a strategy sense vs. the reality of what happens during games.

from a teambuilding perspective, torn-t can do a ton: it checks a bunch of mons, hits hard with hurricane, has bountiful coverage. u dont "need" to stack checks - that's just accounting for risk, which is indeed high - but the potential rewards are worth it in a lot of cases. on the obvious reverse side of the coin, torn-t is a very hard threat to deal with when you are building your team - you dont really know what it's going to run, it gains momentum easily vs a lot of teams, it checks a lot, it hits hard. when u build, ur gonna need several checks to this thing; most players will never account for hurricane misses when constructing a team. thus, they are stratgeically irrelevant (for this discussion).

your point, which is valid, focuses on how the tactical reality of torn is entirely different from the strategic sense. in battle, there are times where hurricane misses are a good play to wait for. this means torn-t is tactically worse in this situ. as u said, sometimes you dont bring in torn-t (even when the situ is such torn-t would serve its strategic purpose) because of tactical concerns - if this misses im done, etc. u cant play as aggressively with either torn-t or its partners because of miss concerns.

i guess the point i should have been clearer on: when you are examining torn-t in a sense "what this mon does to my team", u cannot assume hurricane misses are going to happen. if he hits three and your check was "pray for misses" you're entirely boned. this assumption of torn always hitting hurricanes (which most good players are going to make i think - i might be wrong) needs to be accounted for in your team. tactically, this doesnt hold true. a good player will account for hurricane misses on either side. that makes torn-t worse in battle than the (very real) teambuilder threat. so when ranking its viability we must choose if we're picking "how well it performs in battle" and "how scary of a threat is it to build around or with" which are (i feel obviously) different.

scald was something i was curious about bc it feels similar to me. i wasnt calling u out during any part of my post, i was just curious as to your thoughts. anyway scald is similar in the sense accounting in teambuilder for scald burns is super hard. if u want to strategically account for scald, your water-type switchin needs to have natural cure, or not care much about burns at all, or u need a heal bell-type user and a team which gives u enough time to use it. so u either take large contortions to do so (usually weakening or making more predicatble your team to account for a luck-based effect) or dont strategically account for it. but in battle, you have to tactically - sometimes it's best to sac a mon so your true counter doesnt get hit with the burn, or any such example where u gotta consider scald in your thinking. idk it just reminded me of the torn-t situ and i wanted your opinion ?_?
Ah, I see. My main perspective was actually from the tornadus player, not the person hoping for the misses. Tornadus is indeed scary in the teambuilder from the opponent's viewpoint. It's hard to tack on mons that can tank multiple hurricanes+coverage+u-turns+taunt/etc. The opponent is somewhat boxed into thinking worst-case-scenario.

On the other hand, the tornadus player faces a lot of pressure because of tornadus' unreliability. It's impossible to think that av torn can be your main keldeo check when you know that has such a high chance of turning against you. So, you have to add on another strong keldeo check, which often ends up stacking weaknesses, etc. You can't prepare for the ideal situation in the teambuilder; you have to prepare for (close to) the worst, and tornadus' worst happens much more often than any other S and many a-ranked threats.

In battle, the opposing player has the luxury of alleviating some of their risk management by factoring in that 30% miss. Pokemon is mostly risk-management, so that is a pretty big deal against such an ubiquitous mon. Nobody likes to play around it regardless, but that's why it's in A+ rank. The tornadus player, though faces a larger burden, and I'm sure we can all relate. For example, a few battles ago, I faced a cm mega slowbro. Since it is indeed a 2-sided pokemon match where tornadus won't always find itself in the best position, it came down to the only "optimal" (quotes because, funny enough, risking an actual attack is rarely the best play with tornadus) play being switching in tornadus to revenge it at +1. Opponent took advantage of the fact that he would have an easier time pressuring one of my checks than both of them, so he chose to effectively leave tornadus alone, since it would force me to rely on it to beat slowbro. Sure enough, that 70% chance to hit fell through, and he recovered and swept (hurricane confuse hax was a 10% factoring in miss and crit 4% even if no shell armor, so there really wasnt any bouncing back).

Is this going to happen all of the time? Of course not. Is the 30% chance negligible? LOL. idk how anybody can be playing the "it's not bad, u dont even hurricane that often" card given the high-stakes contexts that you will be hurricaning, and the fact that the only reason that you arent using hurricane more often is because of its accuracy.
 
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Iron Tail Tornadus-T? What does that thing hit, Mega Aero? (Tyranitar is OHKOed by Superpower)

Torn-T is only a S rank threat on rain teams... but you can't use a B+ ranked mon to justify another for S, that'd be ridiculous. You can't hope they go to Raikou while you U-turn or Knock Off its item! It can't stop CM abusers reliably, it can't revenge kill Heracross and Medicham reliably and it can't switch into physical attacks. AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough, since Hurrimiss comes off 296 SpA I believe, which frankly, is laughable.
 
Iron Tail Tornadus-T? What does that thing hit, Mega Aero? (Tyranitar is OHKOed by Superpower)

Torn-T is only a S rank threat on rain teams... but you can't use a B+ ranked mon to justify another for S, that'd be ridiculous. You can't hope they go to Raikou while you U-turn or Knock Off its item! It can't stop CM abusers reliably, it can't revenge kill Heracross and Medicham reliably and it can't switch into physical attacks. AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough, since Hurrimiss comes off 296 SpA I believe, which frankly, is laughable.
Mega Diancie is what I assume Iron Tail would hit.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Holy shit this torn discussion is actually giving me a headache. First thing I want to bring up is that any reason it should move to S is purely based on its offensive sets, not AV. Torn-T is most definitely not only an S rank threat on rain teams, its one of the most annoying things to account for in the teambuilder especially with bulkier builds because you're forced to run garbage like Zapdos if you really want a consistent answer, if you don't have zapdos, your other electrics like raikou/rotom/manec all get worn down quickly and outlasted because Regenerator is a dumb ability.

And as I said, you do not need to use Hurricane (nor should you actually try to) until Torn has done its job. The unreliability of Hurricane just forces you to play Torn differently until its chipped down the entire opposing team and use Hurricane when you can afford the miss. This seems to be a key point people are missing. Yeah, we all get stuck with lastmon situations where relying on a low accuracy move screws us over (thanks Lando-i and thanks Megazam) but is this really why one of the most dominating mons in the meta right now should be denied s rank?
 
Holy shit this torn discussion is actually giving me a headache. First thing I want to bring up is that any reason it should move to S is purely based on its offensive sets, not AV. Torn-T is most definitely not only an S rank threat on rain teams, its one of the most annoying things to account for in the teambuilder especially with bulkier builds because you're forced to run garbage like Zapdos if you really want a consistent answer, if you don't have zapdos, your other electrics like raikou/rotom/manec all get worn down quickly and outlasted because Regenerator is a dumb ability.

And as I said, you do not need to use Hurricane (nor should you actually try to) until Torn has done its job. The unreliability of Hurricane just forces you to play Torn differently until its chipped down the entire opposing team and use Hurricane when you can afford the miss. This seems to be a key point people are missing. Yeah, we all get stuck with lastmon situations where relying on a low accuracy move screws us over (thanks Lando-i and thanks Megazam) but is this really why one of the most dominating mons in the meta right now should be denied s rank?
Yes. Without rain, a lot of the things that you should 2hko with hurricane are not 2hkos 51% of the time thanks to the miss chance. Mega Altaria, CharX, Manaphy, Clefable, Mega Sableye: that's literally every S-rank and a few top tier A ranks that you should be beating, but you will actually lose to 51% of the time because of the miss chance. Then you have things like CharY which saps your accuracy even more and Diancie which can't be beaten without another low accuracy move.

LO Torn has always been the biggest threat for me on rain teams (even more than Kingdra) and on teams with a rain dance Manaphy. But without that rain he's too unreliable.
 
-> A

So I know this isn't on the list of discussion points but neither is Torn-T so sue me. Pinsir deserves a rise at this point, if only because it hits as stupidly hard as Gard and Medicham while also being as effective against offense as the former two. In a lot of matches you can pretty much just click Return until the point that most checks won't be able to come in again, due to some common checks like Rotom and Lando lacking reliable recovery. While QA can be a little weak at times it can still pick off weakened targets quite well, especially now that Adamant has become a trendy nature to run. Pinsir can also run a few different coverage moves to work around its checks, such as running Earthquake to hit Metagross and Diancie. It really only needs Return to be threatening as Flying STAB has such good coverage to being with. I think the meta is favorable enough to it that it can take its almost overdue place alongside the other wallbreaking Megas in A rank.
 
Torn is A.

Its pretty good, not sure why people are talking about Meme-teams (rain-teams) since they're so ass rn.

AV Torn is such a solid check to a lot of things right now, and it forms a beastly core with rotom-w. Both of these heavily support Medicham, which is a rising Mega.


I personally think Rotom-Heat should rise, it cant be will-o'd nor para'd (normally) and given how insanely popular t-wave clef and Will-o-wisp Mega Sabel its probably one of the best pivots, only drawback being stealth rocks shitting on it.


Torn is not S. At all. "Durr it does go0d in rain" is not an argument.
 
In what world is Rain "ass"? I don't agree with Torn being S entirely, but c'mon man. . . Rain is far from "ass". I'm not going to argue semantics or subjectivity but that statement is pretty "ass".

Also, your arrogance isn't helping you buddy. No one can argue Torn is a HUGE problem in OU right now, it can do so freaking much it's insane. Yes, the accuracy of its moves suck, but I'm not entirely sure if that should be a deciding factor. With that said, compared to the other S Pokemon, I don't feel it is quite on par with them. Though, it is most certainly shining among its A+ peers. It's a toughy I'll admit.
 
Salamence: D ---> C+

HOLY SHIT WHY IS MENCE D RANK ROFL

If crap like Kyurem can be C+, I don't see why Mence wouldn't be. Mence is frankly outclassed at many things, but it can perform mixed, DD, lure and defensive sets with unique qualities. Mixed sets would be outclassed by Cube for example, but the latter doesn't have Fire Blast or Hydro Pump and thus no way to reliably OHKO Ferrothorn or Scizor. Mence is also faster and thus ties with base 100s, and is immune to Earthquake. It also can't be easily revenged by Bullet Punch or ExtremeSpeed, due to Intimidate.

DD would be outclassed by Zard and Alt, but Intimidate means it can set up on stuff like Lando-T and Excadrill, tank a hit, and go to town with Outrage. You have a few options here, besides the obvious Life Orb, such as Lum or even Roseli Berry to cure status or tank a Moonblast, respectively. Make sure to run Adamant (or Lonely w/ Fire Blast).

Lure sets (DD + Draco Meteor or Hydro Pump over Fire Blast) seem outclassed by CM Latios, but at least you can severely weaken Hippo in the early-game thinking it's the DD set, while it wouldn't even dare to switch into Latios lol. Hydro Pump makes this job easier and it also OHKOes Lando-T and the rare Rhyperior, though without DM you're in trouble against stuff such as Slowbro and Mega Sab.

And finally, bulky Defog sets seem outclassed by Lati@s and Zapdos, but Salamence is, well, bulky, meaning it can tank far more hits than Lati@s can even dream of (e.g.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 180 Def Salamence: 164-192 (41.7 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)

(btw scarf sets suck)

So yeah. Mence is versatile as hell. I get this thing is fairly outclassed, but so is Infernape, and yet it sits decently at C+. I don't see Salamence as a worse mon than 'Nape tbh. Fairies are jerks to it, but Iron Tail can get past them (75% acc? psshhh, torn-T has a 70% main stab move and you guys are nominating it for S rank)... really, Mence's problem is that it can't really fit both Iron Tail and Fire Blast on the same moveset... but still, how is this thing only D rank? It really should rise. Stuff like Kyurem can be C+ and Mence can't?

as for Torn-T to S:

rain isn't ass, but certainly not enough to bring Torn-T to S ...

One more thing: remember Weavile in gen 5? Remember Weavile syndrome? Remember when Weavile had to use 70-75 BP moves to hit its targets?

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 152-179 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO

Basically, AV Torn-T has the exact same problem. It doesn't hit hard enough. While it's not always supposed to OHKO its targets, if Gen5 Weavile hits harder than Torn-T... that kinda speaks out. Not to mention Torn can't even boost.

Yeah, AV Torn-T isn't really a hyper-offensive pokemon, but we're arguing for S rank here, not for B- or whatever rank Weavile was. Not only is AV Torn-T unreliable, it also doesn't hit hard enough. If it goes LO, then we're back to Hurricane's 70% acc, but this time if you don't KO you're likely gonna get KOed, due to subpar bulk.
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Hurricane has a 21% chance of confusing, which, on average, loses your opponent 1.25 turns (if they switch out it is 1 turn and you get switch initiative with u-turn) and missing loses you one turn (30%). That's a 3.75% net turn loss when going for hurricane. Dragon Tail with garchomp has a 10% chance to miss and no good hax side effect, so Chomp will get haxed more often than Torn-T. So if the hurrimiss is the only argument, to keep it out of S, then you should look at the scald effect that hurricane brings to the table - a 21% chance to confuse your opponent. This is like Piloted Shredder in Hearthstone. You guys can say "oh doomsayer, captain's parrot, this card sucks" but it's in practically every deck because it can get stuff like millhouse too.
Quoting myself since this still is true. Tornt is s worthy imo. If u say hax is the only thing keeping it out, do the math first.
 
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