Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Martin]

The only reason Mence is listed in the first place is because of its fat Defog set. Trying to get it to do anything else is quite frankly a bad decision on any team, and if you are being forced to run offensive Mence there are probably bigger problems with your team than 'mons x, y and z. Its DD set is directly outclassed by Dragonite, who has a better ability for its job in Multiscale, higher bulk and access to ExtremeSpeed to beat priority; as a mixed attacker there is literally no reason to use it over either Kyu-B or Hydreigon or even Garchomp who can achieve all the goals that you hope to achieve with Salamence.

Your comparison to Nape has one major flaw: unlike Salamence, Nape is not outclassed. Infernape's mixed attacker and PhysDef sets all carve very unique niches on teams due to its stellar typing, access to powerful offensive and supportive options in STAB Fire Blast, STAB CC, exemplary coverage, Mach Punch, Slack Off and Wisp etc. have allowed it to avoid being completely eclipsed like Mence is.

As for your Kyurem comparison, you have obviously never either used or faced a competent user of Kyurem because its niche comes from its SubRoost set which is actually surprisingly good due to it having what approaches Ferrothorn-level bulk, unique typing, reliable recovery and Pressure to easily PP stall moves like Gyro Ball, Fire Blast etc. out of PP. If you are trying to compare it to Salamence you have bigger issues - because the only way they are remotely similar is in their Dragon typing, and Kyurem's niche is significantly more defined than Mence's is.

Also idk where this idea that rain is the only argument that is being used for Torn being S has come from and it is just proving that there is a surge of people not actually reading the thread lol. Please read before you assume, as rain hasn't even been a major argument for it once so far from the discussion i've seen rofl

 

[Karxrida]

Hurricane has a 21% chance of confusing, which, on average, loses your opponent 1.25 turns (if they switch out it is 1 turn and you get switch initiative with u-turn) and missing loses you one turn (30%). That's a 3.75% net turn loss when going for hurricane. Dragon Tail with garchomp has a 10% chance to miss and no good hax side effect, so Chomp will get haxed more often than Torn-T. So if the hurrimiss is the only argument, to keep it out of S, then you should look at the scald effect that hurricane brings to the table - a 21% chance to confuse your opponent. This is like Piloted Shredder in Hearthstone. You guys can say "oh doomsayer, captain's parrot, this card sucks" but it's in practically every deck because it can get stuff like millhouse too.
Quoting myself since this still is true. Tornt is s worthy imo. If u say hax is the only thing keeping it out, do the math first.

Except Hurricane misses are complete ass and they make Tornadus-T inconsistent. An S-Rank shouldn't fail you 30% of the time with its money maker attack.

Tornadus-T is fine where it's at. It's definitely a solid pick, but the misses are too much of a drawback.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

The only reason Mence is listed in the first place is because of its fat Defog set. Trying to get it to do anything else is quite frankly a bad decision on any team, and if you are being forced to run offensive Mence there are probably bigger problems with your team than 'mons x, y and z. Its DD set is directly outclassed by Dragonite, who has a better ability for its job in Multiscale, higher bulk and access to ExtremeSpeed to beat priority; as a mixed attacker there is literally no reason to use it over either Kyu-B or Hydreigon or even Garchomp who can achieve all the goals that you hope to achieve with Salamence.

Your comparison to Nape has one major flaw: unlike Salamence, Nape is not outclassed. Infernape's mixed attacker and PhysDef sets all carve very unique niches on teams due to its stellar typing, access to powerful offensive and supportive options in STAB Fire Blast, STAB CC, exemplary coverage, Mach Punch, Slack Off and Wisp etc. have allowed it to avoid being completely eclipsed like Mence is.

As for your Kyurem comparison, you have obviously never either used or faced a competent user of Kyurem because its niche comes from its SubRoost set which is actually surprisingly good due to it having what approaches Ferrothorn-level bulk, unique typing, reliable recovery and Pressure to easily PP stall moves like Gyro Ball, Fire Blast etc. out of PP. If you are trying to compare it to Salamence you have bigger issues - because the only way they are remotely similar is in their Dragon typing, and Kyurem's niche is significantly more defined than Mence's is.

Also idk where this idea that rain is the only argument that is being used for Torn being S has come from and it is just proving that there is a surge of people not actually reading the thread lol. Please read before you assume, as rain hasn't even been a major argument for it once so far from the discussion i've seen rofl

Dragonite needs rocks out of the way, period, it can't afford to run LO and thus is weaker overall than Mence, it doesn't work on sand teams and is outsped by MegaLop and MegaZam even after one Dragon Dance. Cube has no reliable way to beat Ferrothorn or Scizor, Hydreigon has problems against Chansey and fairies (to a much larger degree than Mence) and LO ChainChomp can't get past Hippo easily...

Nape isn't outclassed? There aren't too many reasons to use it over Keldeo or Terrak tbh since they offer much better defensive utility and hit harder... Nape is very versatile though, and brings severe pain to fat cores if mixed or after a sd/np. Same with Mence, except after one DD it can break balanced teams pretty well.

I did use Kyurem once and I've been deeply dissappointed, it gives free switch-ins to Mega Garde and Hoopa-U, doesn't hit that hard without Draco Meteor and with it it becomes setup fodder.

Rain is probably the only archetype where Torn-T has the potential to be a S rank mon b/c Hurricane becomes, well, Hurricane, and is actually very scary to switch into. Other than that, quoting MikeDawg, you're probably not using Hurricane more often because of its accuracy.

 

[Albacore]

I don't think Pinsir should move up simply because I just don't find it as effective as Medicham, which is already one of the weaker A ranks. Obviously, this is mostly due to the SR weakness, which is really crippling for a wallbreaker (also the reason Kyurem-B be should remain A rank), but also because Medicham's higher raw power enabling it to deal a lot more damage to stuff it hits neutrally like Hippo, Garchomp, Scizor, etc. As a result, it can't guarantee as much damage and just can't force out as many things as it wants to, stuff like Ferro can just stay in on it and smack it. Admittedly, Flying is more spammable than Fighting, and Pinsir as a whole is harder to wall than Medicham since the latter can't touch bulky Psychics, however those aren't too hard to remove or take advantage of, and teams that aren't prepared for Medicham usually have a harder time dealing with it than those weak to Pinsir. Medicham also has more variance in its sets, with the potential to mess over would-be checks and counters with Ice Punch, Bullet Punch or Thunder Punch, whereas Pinsir only really has one set, and is therefore much simpler to respond to. Yes, it does have SD, but I find it hard to set up due to its typing. And though Pinsir's priority is stronger, I find Fake Out to be way more useful, chipping at faster threats and doing a better job at handling sweepers. There's nothing more annoying than getting swept by the last mon despite having most of your own Pokemon alive, and Medicham prevents that by letting you Fake Out, sack, and repeat, while Pinsir cannot. Overall, I find Medicham to be more viable than Pinsir to the extent where it deserves to be ranked higher.

Hoopa-U is simply not splashable enough to be S rank. It's just not something you really put on teams easily, even when you think "oh i need a wallbreaker i'll just run Hoopa" you often end up having to choose another because you're weak to a certain thing Hoopa-U doesn't help against. This is what seperates it from Manaphy really, the fact that it isn't necessarily an obvious pick for teams prevents it from being S rank in my eyes.

Salamence is terrible and I'm not even sure it should be ranked at all. No matter what it does there's always something else that'll do it way better regardless of what minor advantages it may bring. DD is done far better by Dragonite due to ESpeed meaning you don't get revenge killed by priority (particularly from Weavile, and it's not like DD Dragonite is amazing in the first place. Salamence suffers the same problems as it does (prevalence of checks due to the presence of other, better DDers having to choose between the relatively weak DClaw and the downright suicidal Outrage as your only STAB), only gaining more speed (mostly irrelevant due to DNite's access to ESpeed) and Intimidate which is only superior to Multiscale if Rocks are up, in which case Mence is hardly taking hits anyway. Mixed is even worse and has no merit over Garchomp at all. Bulky Defog is the only set that's not complete garbage, and even then it has only minor advantages over Latias and Starmie, also it's weak to rocks and therefore not exactly a good hazard remover. Honestly I'd rather use Flygon, at least it doesn't lose a quarter of its health from what it's supposed to remove in the first place. It should absolutely not move to C- let alone C+ lol.

btw Gengar and Starmie should probably share the same rank tbh

 

[AM]

Are you talking about starmie in A or gengar in A-? Cause if it is the latter then lol....

 

[MikeDawg]

Hurricane has a 21% chance of confusing, which, on average, loses your opponent 1.25 turns (if they switch out it is 1 turn and you get switch initiative with u-turn) and missing loses you one turn (30%). That's a 3.75% net turn loss when going for hurricane. Dragon Tail with garchomp has a 10% chance to miss and no good hax side effect, so Chomp will get haxed more often than Torn-T. So if the hurrimiss is the only argument, to keep it out of S, then you should look at the scald effect that hurricane brings to the table - a 21% chance to confuse your opponent. This is like Piloted Shredder in Hearthstone. You guys can say "oh doomsayer, captain's parrot, this card sucks" but it's in practically every deck because it can get stuff like millhouse too.
Quoting myself since this still is true. Tornt is s worthy imo. If u say hax is the only thing keeping it out, do the math first.

That's not how math works. You are missing approximately 50 variables.

 

[gobln]

Rain is subpar. Rain teams are about as viable as full-stall in this meta; they work if the opponent is complete trash at building.

My arrogance doesnt exist. I simply know how the game works, its not difficult, the game isnt deep or confusing.

Its not S, its A (or A+, really doesnt matter)

Accuracy isnt its biggest issue, in fact it doesnt have a "Big issue" its just really good with a few things holding it back.

 

[Vinc608]

-> A

So I know this isn't on the list of discussion points but neither is Torn-T so sue me. Pinsir deserves a rise at this point, if only because it hits as stupidly hard as Gard and Medicham while also being as effective against offense as the former two. In a lot of matches you can pretty much just click Return until the point that most checks won't be able to come in again, due to some common checks like Rotom and Lando lacking reliable recovery. While QA can be a little weak at times it can still pick off weakened targets quite well, especially now that Adamant has become a trendy nature to run. Pinsir can also run a few different coverage moves to work around its checks, such as running Earthquake to hit Metagross and Diancie. It really only needs Return to be threatening as Flying STAB has such good coverage to being with. I think the meta is favorable enough to it that it can take its almost overdue place alongside the other wallbreaking Megas in A rank.

To be honest, this is an interesting nomination. I played like 75 games with Pinsir-Mega (thanks Nedor for the team!), and in each game it does some work. It is really unrated at the moment, but I don't think this is sufficent to be A Rank. It needs so much support to be succesfull. Firstly, he has SR weakness and this is so crippling because with its decent bulk, it can take some physical hits like Icicle Crash from Weavile when not mega-evolved. It cannot lure his counters just because it has one set : SD. For example, Skarmory always wall Mega Pinsir, when physical sweepers like Mega-Gyarados can lure Skarmory with Taunt. Thundurus is a huge pain to it, and Pinsir-Mega speed tier is not excellent in this offensive metagame. In my eyes, it is one of the best Pokemon in A- Rank, and not in A Rank.

 

[MikeDawg]

fleggumfl unless I and everyone that I've ever seen use tornadus are mistaken, half of the point of life orb tornadus is to kill scary things with hurricane given its uniquely fast speed tier, power, etc. sincere question (like, actually wondering if im missing something practical): in how many situations is u-turning all battle going to be super duper beneficial (in terms of being one of the 4 best things in the metagame)? When is a good chunk of its "job" not going to be going for important kos? I think that you are overstating the longevity of life orb tornadus. Most of the taunt-bait mons can take a large chunk out of it (between rocks, lo, and uninvested bulk, it's easy to force a substantial net hp loss). Obviously it has the perk of pivoting in and out to heal up (though that is kind of hindered by rocks as well), but that's not particularly extra-stellar of a role... Its job is never done when the opposing team has scary fast mons in the late/mid game that you have to hurricane on because u only have so many slots on a tornadus team to tank a keldeo, etc. Nobody would bring up the accuracy if it wasnt a big deal. Important: The only reason that you don't have to (read: don't want to) use hurricane in the first place is because it is a liability. I don't think anybody could argue that tornadus would be doing the same thing if hurricane had better accuracy (and it would be a significantly better pokemon). Obviously it is really good, but i and many others think that you are downplaying the frequency of times when hurricane really matters because of teambuilding constraints, matchup, opponent didnt play like poop, etc.

 

[bludz]

Medicham is A rank friend it moved up in one of the last slates

I am inclined to agree that Pinsir has gotten slightly better lately but not enough to merit a rise. The plethora of fast threats in this metagame relegates it to revenge killing with priority or wallbreaking primarily. Although it can take most hits from full and retaliate this is not always plausible due to its Rocks weakness. In fairness the SR weakness is overplayed in some aspects, primarily the fact that Pinsir only takes 25% in pre Mega form, however it is prevalent enough that Pinsir often is only able to come out once a match.

 

[TPP]

I really like Keldeo and find it to be extremely splashable due to being able to checking Bisharp, Weavile, and Dark types overall (which are everywhere) and having Scald is just plain annoying when dealing with an opposing Keldeo. It's good, but there's a ton of ways to currently deal with it, and that list is pretty large with Latios/Latias, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Celebi, Slowbro and with the meta getting faster, that base 108 speed isn't as nice anymore. It's good, but definetely not good enough for S Rank right now. Stay in A+

On the other hand Azumarill is slower, but it packs a punch no one wants to take. Granted when dealing with a Choice Banded Azumarill, you can hope on predicting what it'll go for and either switch in accordingly or sack something and then force Azu to switch out, but either way, it's getting a kill every game or at least taking out a good chunk of multiple mons on the opposing team. Offensive teams hate switching into it, and it's able to put in a lot of work. There's not much left to be said that hasn't already been mentioned, but here's a replay where I actually ran Body Slam on Azumarill to lure and paralyze Mega Venusaur. It's on Turn 19 and Body Slam is meant to help with slowing down threats so Azu's speed problem is fixed or at least helped so it can outspeed/force out more stuff. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-273422383 Go to S Rank

Edit: Choice Banded Azu literally took out this guy's entire team http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-304817846

Most of what's said about Torn-T (with it's accuracy being it's liability causing it to be inconsistent) has already been pointed out, so I'll try to skip that. If you're using LO Tornadus outside of rain, which does happen since people like to run it with Taunt, then not being able to rely on your strongest move in the form of stab seems a bit redundant. The one problem with accuracy is that it can turn a good prediction into a wasted opportunity, and with the other S Rank mons, each one can capitalize on a good prediction (Zard X with Dragon Dance, Manaphy with Tail Glow, Clefable with T-wave, Calm Mind or Stealth Rocks, Mega Sableye with Knock Off, Recover, or Will-O-Wisp). Those mons carry a lot less risk than Torn-T does, which is the main issue I see in putting it in S Rank. Using U-turn and Knock Off is fine throughout the game, but it can make Torn-T look way more passive then it should be. There's also the fact that late game, if Torn-T is your last mon, U-turn won't do you much good unless you're facing Hoopa-Unbound, Knock Off won't do much unless you're facing a psychic type, and that leaves you with Hurricane or whatever you have in the 4th slot (it could be Taunt, so that leaves you with just Hurricane, and everyone's already summed up the problem with that). Also, for the LO set, using U-turn and coming back out while Stealth Rocks are on the field basically cancels out the Regenerator healing. You're losing 34-35% (9-10% from LO and 25% from rocks) and you're gaining 33% from Regenerator, so while using U-turn with this thing is really good, you also gotta consider the fact it loses a quarter of its health from rocks each time, meaning you usually gain about 8% if you're running AV, unless of course you remove rocks. The reason for mentioning the rocks damage was just a point that one of it's unique traits in Regenerator can be canceled out or lessen the benefit it normally provides. Sending it in to miss a Hurricane can really blow, especially when you're also sending it to check something like Keldeo. One point I really liked that MikeDawg touched upon was the fact that Torn-T can technically switch into something like Keldeo, but because of it's accuracy issues, occasionally not be able to do anything back. It's more of a take a hit and hope for a hit kind of situation and there's too much risk involved when Torn-T is your only option left against a threat like Keldeo or whatever the opposing threat is. It's a great mon no doubt, but inconsistency kills it, so it's not necessarily S Rank. Stay in A+

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Salamence is terrible and I'm not even sure it should be ranked at all. No matter what it does there's always something else that'll do it way better regardless of what minor advantages it may bring. DD is done far better by Dragonite due to ESpeed meaning you don't get revenge killed by priority (particularly from Weavile, and it's not like DD Dragonite is amazing in the first place. Salamence suffers the same problems as it does (prevalence of checks due to the presence of other, better DDers having to choose between the relatively weak DClaw and the downright suicidal Outrage as your only STAB), only gaining more speed (mostly irrelevant due to DNite's access to ESpeed) and Intimidate which is only superior to Multiscale if Rocks are up, in which case Mence is hardly taking hits anyway. Mixed is even worse and has no merit over Garchomp at all. Bulky Defog is the only set that's not complete garbage, and even then it has only minor advantages over Latias and Starmie, also it's weak to rocks and therefore not exactly a good hazard remover. Honestly I'd rather use Flygon, at least it doesn't lose a quarter of its health from what it's supposed to remove in the first place. It should absolutely not move to C- let alone C+ lol.

ExtremeSpeed on DD Dragonite is honestly very overrated and I'd rather just use Fire Punch to not get walled by Ferrothorn or Skarmory. ExtremeSpeed can't even OHKO most of the faster threats even at +1. Thus I don't see how is Mence's higher speed irrelevant. And as I said, Mence can afford to run LO, Nite can't.

Mence has a much higher special attack than Chomp (110 vs 80) and gets Hydro Pump. I already covered this set tho as well as fat defog.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

ExtremeSpeed on DD Dragonite is honestly very overrated and I'd rather just use Fire Punch to not get walled by Ferrothorn or Skarmory. ExtremeSpeed can't even OHKO most of the faster threats even at +1. Thus I don't see how is Mence's higher speed irrelevant. And as I said, Mence can afford to run LO, Nite can't.

Mence has a much higher special attack than Chomp (110 vs 80) and gets Hydro Pump. I already covered this set tho as well as fat defog.

Hide

These things both exist. Gyarados also gets Intimidate, isn't hard-walled by Fairy-types like Mence is, and doesn't get fucked over by Ice Shard. And if you really want it to be a Dragon-type and not Dragonite, use... Uhh.... Haxorus, or something, which at least has Mold Breaker to set it apart from Nite (and non-Mega to set it apart from M-Gyarados). Anything but Salamence.

 

[bludz]

+1 ESpeed KOs Weavile after Rocks which is absolutely huge. Sure it doesn't outright OHKO Mane or Lop. But after some chip damage +1 Dnite is doing a far better job of cleaning with ESpeed than a +1 Mence simply due to how common priority attacks are with Weavile being the main concern for the Dragon Flying types. Multiscale is a much better setup tool than Intimidate and if Rocks are up I'd say even if Mence can setup (which is tough), it will just be revenged by priority which DNite can't be so easily

DD Mence is also walled by Clefable etc just as badly as Dragonite while LO mix while stronger than Chomp isn't really that good since Chomp is still 2HKOing Skarm and Ferro etc

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Hide

These things both exist. Gyarados also gets Intimidate, isn't hard-walled by Fairy-types like Mence is, and doesn't get fucked over by Ice Shard. And if you really want it to be a Dragon-type and not Dragonite, use... Uhh.... Haxorus, or something, which at least has Mold Breaker to set it apart from Nite (and non-Mega to set it apart from M-Gyarados). Anything but Salamence.

Mence isn't exactly hard-walled by fairies either, as Iron Tail can threaten to 2HKO most of them bar Azu. Though I find Fire Blast with Mega Venu or Exca support a lot better since this way Mence can sweep fairly easily at +1 once Clef and other fairies are gone. And Mega Gyara has a lot of trouble against stuff like Tangrowth, Venu, Ferro, Skarm and Keldeo, which Mence can beat at +1 (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 360-425 (100.2 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

Haxorus I believe should rise as well, though only to C-. It fucks over stall teams with SD+Mold Breaker. Taking care of Quagsire and Clef while ignoring Unaware is something most set-up sweepers can only dream of. Skarm is annoying though.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Mence isn't exactly hard-walled by fairies either, as Iron Tail can threaten to 2HKO most of them bar Azu. Though I find Fire Blast with Mega Venu or Exca support a lot better since this way Mence can sweep fairly easily at +1 once Clef and other fairies are gone. And Gyarados has a lot of trouble against stuff like Tangrowth, Venu, Ferro, Skarm and Keldeo, which Mence can beat at +1 (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 360-425 (100.2 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

Haxorus I believe should rise as well, though only to C-. It fucks over stall teams with SD+Mold Breaker. Taking care of Quagsire and Clef while ignoring Unaware is something most set-up sweepers can only dream of. Skarm is annoying though.

I wasn't aware that Bounce stopped existing.

Whatever. This conversation is pointless. Mence is only here for its fat Defog set and shouldn't rise. Haxorus might have an argument for rising, but definitely not Salamence.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I wasn't aware that Bounce stopped existing.

Whatever. This conversation is pointless. Mence is only here for its fat Defog set and shouldn't rise. Haxorus might have an argument for rising, but definitely not Salamence.

Meant Mega Gyara, oops.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Rain is subpar. Rain teams are about as viable as full-stall in this meta; they work if the opponent is complete trash at building.

My arrogance doesnt exist. I simply know how the game works, its not difficult, the game isnt deep or confusing.

Its not S, its A (or A+, really doesnt matter)

Accuracy isnt its biggest issue, in fact it doesnt have a "Big issue" its just really good with a few things holding it back.

Rain is far more viable right now than Full Stall, but Like I said, I'm not going to argue Subjectivity.

Whatever helps you sleep at night Home Skillet.

I agree, I'm not too keen on it being S, I was simply pointing out your statement was. . . not a good one. I'd just recommend putting actual thought into your arguments, and expressing those thoughts. Arrogance and shit posting only works for a select few of us. :]

 

[Heatmor]

As for Salamence, I think it should stay in D Rank as of now. First of all, in my opinion it's the worst pseudo-legendary. In fact, almost anything it can do, there is another dragon - particularly in OU- that can do that job better. It's Defensive set is outclassed by TankChomp, DD Set by Dragonite, and though I guess it is versatile, many of its uncommon sets are just straight univable. Everything it can do, another Dragon can do better, and said Dragon is more competitively relevant. C- is a stretch, but C+ is definitely out of the question.

 

[Yugi]

As for Salamence, I think it should stay in D Rank as of now. First of all, in my opinion it's the worst pseudo-legendary. In fact, almost anything it can do, there is another dragon - particularly in OU- that can do that job better. It's Defensive set is outclassed by TankChomp, DD Set by Dragonite, and though I guess it is versatile, many of its uncommon sets are just straight univable. Everything it can do, another Dragon can do better, and said Dragon is more competitively relevant. C- is a stretch, but C+ is definitely out of the question.

I agree with all what you said but one thing.Fatmence isnt outclassed by TankChomp.TankChomp sets up rocks while Fatmence removes them,and serves as a better fighting check due to intimidate.Other than that i agree with everything.

 

[Srn]

Mega pinsir is def A quality.
The rocks weakness is definitely a problem, but given the current anti-meta qualities it posses in being an unorthodox and honestly not well prepared for balance-breaker with powerful priority, it's worth it.
STAB flying goes a long way, especially when it's strong (cough talonflame cough) and doesn't miss (cough torn-t cough). Because of this, mega pinsir doesn't even need to set up to be a massive threat with its raw power, which isn't something that can be said of much wallbreakers, especially not manaphy (S ranked).
Ofc, these comparisons are iffy because mega pinsir's survivability in comparison to the mons i called out is much much lower. It's bulk actually isn't terrible, but its typing is shit.
Despite this, the rise in bulky chomp>bulky lando-t and sdef skarm>def skarm are very favourable to mega pinsir, as is the rise of slower, bulkier talonflame that tend to wisp/sd/acro/roost instead of sd/bb/blitz/filler with max speed, meaning you can QA some badly ev'd talons :D

In response to the comparison to medicham, it's much easier to set up than you make it out to be. 65/120/90 bulk isn't THAT bad considering the typing, and you can definitely set up on shit like non-cb Azu and -2 latios and offensive chomp and all that jazz. The difference between mega pinsir and mega medicham is that one can wallbreak, and the other can wallbreak AND clean. You just simply won't see mega medicham cleaning up offensive teams, but it's not uncommon to see a mega pinsir clicking +2 QA and OHKO'ing latios, torn-t, zam, gengar, hoopa, offensive starmie, and the like after rox. Granted that mega medi doesn't need hazard support and fake out is fake out but u get what i'm tryna say.
Meanwhile, shit like msab and slowbro are as popular as ever, both of which are hard stops to medi :< it's also still ez to revenge kill.

TL; DR yes it needs hazard support but its power+cleaning ability+anti-meta qualities definitely deserve A rank.

 

[gobln]

Rain is far more viable right now than Full Stall, but Like I said, I'm not going to argue Subjectivity.

Whatever helps you sleep at night Home Skillet.

I agree, I'm not too keen on it being S, I was simply pointing out your statement was. . . not a good one. I'd just recommend putting actual thought into your arguments, and expressing those thoughts. Arrogance and shit posting only works for a select few of us. :]

my statement was perfect, think critically before you attempt at critiquing my argument.

Rain only works because people are shit and cant counter it. That is the only reason. If people were even half-decent at building then i assure you, we would be in agreement.

And im not arrogant or shitposting, im simply stating facts. Weather is subpar at best. deal with it.

 

[bludz]

Sorta chose to not moderate the thread primarily in the form of one liners as thread was getting more active with mods being less hands on and I'm ok with that

Cool it with the one liners though, sheesh. Not gonna go back and delete them all but the most recent "lol" isnt acceptable

 

[pika pal]

my statement was perfect, think critically before you attempt at critiquing my argument.

Rain only works because people are shit and cant counter it. That is the only reason. If people were even half-decent at building then i assure you, we would be in agreement.

And im not arrogant or shitposting, im simply stating facts. Weather is subpar at best. deal with it.

Could you please elaborate on what traits of Rain make it so easy to counter, whether that be stacked Water types, dependence on Politoed, or some other factor?

As is, Rain is a powerful playstyle thanks to the high speed tiers of Swift Swimmers against offense, strong unboosted power thanks to Rain Boosted Water STABs for decent Sweepers, Wallbreakers, and Cleaners, Good synergy with mons like Ferrothorn or Mega Scizor, and immediate power of their attackers with Weather compared to a need to Boost.

As is, the rise of Bulky Chomp, which Rain isn't the most troubled by, and the popularity of mons that use Rain well such as Azumarill, Manaphy, Keldeo, and the (hotly discussed) Tornadus-T could be points in its favor.

I don't want to immediately dismiss your points, as they may have some valid basing, but simply stating "Weather is subpar" and blaming it on people not being "half-decent at building" without presenting the objective flaws and how they hurt the playstyle against current Meta Trends doesn't make people receptive to your arguments, right or wrong.

 

[4daptability]

I really like Keldeo and find it to be extremely splashable due to being able to checking Bisharp, Weavile, and Dark types overall (which are everywhere) and having Scald is just plain annoying when dealing with an opposing Keldeo. It's good, but there's a ton of ways to currently deal with it, and that list is pretty large with Latios/Latias, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Celebi, Slowbro and with the meta getting faster, that base 108 speed isn't as nice anymore. It's good, but definetely not good enough for S Rank right now. Stay in A+

On the other hand Azumarill is slower, but it packs a punch no one wants to take. Granted when dealing with a Choice Banded Azumarill, you can hope on predicting what it'll go for and either switch in accordingly or sack something and then force Azu to switch out, but either way, it's getting a kill every game or at least taking out a good chunk of multiple mons on the opposing team. Offensive teams hate switching into it, and it's able to put in a lot of work. There's not much left to be said that hasn't already been mentioned, but here's a replay where I actually ran Body Slam on Azumarill to lure and paralyze Mega Venusaur. It's on Turn 19 and Body Slam is meant to help with slowing down threats so Azu's speed problem is fixed or at least helped so it can outspeed/force out more stuff. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-273422383 Go to S Rank

Edit: Choice Banded Azu literally took out this guy's entire team http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-304817846

With all due respect, I don't believe that Body Slam is worth a moveslot on CB Azu, mainly because it's redundant coverage. In your first replay, you had a boosted M-Zor, which could have been used to accumulate more attack boosts against the Ferrothorn (+5 0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 270-318 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and greatly weaken your opponent's Mega Venusaur, to a point where Azumarill may have been able to clean with CB Aqua Jet. Instead, you opted to preserve it by pivoting into AV Torn (which is not a bad play in itself, but considering that Terrakion and Hoopa-U aren't KO'd from stock Bullet Punch, it was definitely questionable given that finding an opportunity to Roost was near impossible at that point). On Turn 20, you opt to abuse the choice-locked Terrakion by going for Body Slam on Mega Venusaur (which failed to 2HKO), but paralyzed it. At that point in the game you still had AV Torn to reliably switch into Mega Venu, meaning that the paralysis was unneeded for you to win the game. I think it's fair to say that your first replay did not support your claim being that CB Azumarill is capable of tearing apart most teams due to its limited switch-ins because Mega Scizor did most of the work that would open holes for the rest of the team.

Had you shown Azumarill punish Ferrothorn by removing its item or 2HKOing with Superpower (or even the unconventional Ice Punch to lure Mega Venusaur prior to Mega evolution) to generate momentum and create a free switch to Mega Scizor/ Torn-T, respectively, I might have been convinced by your argument that Azumarill is a potent threat to prepare for, and is worthy of S Rank.

Regarding my opinion on Azumarill, I believe it's certainly one of the best 'mons in A+ due to its ability to apply offensive pressure on the opponent, and also take the role as a solid pivot with AV, but I need to try the Defensive Sap Sipper set before I form an opinion.