Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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back to the slate i guess

Tangrowth to B+: Agree
Tangrowth, despite being RU, has maintained pretty solid usage at high ladder for the past few months, as well as in smogon tour. with an assault vest and 252 HP/252 SpD, its raw bulk exceeds heatran's. While its obviously held back in comparison due to it's typing, inability to use non-attacks, and lack of a fire immunity, it does have some pretty effective walling capabilities, providing a solid check to electrics, waters, grounds, and grasses, as well as being able to solidly tank pretty much any neutral hit. here are some fun feats:

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 283-335 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 156-186 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 322-381 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 291-346 (72 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 289-343 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you get the idea. obviously it cant consistently wall all of these, but with regenerator and solid coverage options it can definitely help to rack up damage and function as a solid pivot without throwing away all of its health. tangrowth has respectable 100/110 and a shitload of great moves that allow it to pose a threat despite a lack of investment. Between a good grass stabs in Leaf storm/giga drain, utility in knock off, and coverage in earthquake, sludge bomb, hidden power, and rock slide, tang can threaten or lure mons that would otherwise use it as setup bait.

he can still function without an assault vest, if only to make use of things like sleep powder, synthesis, or toxic, but its probably not that great. abr and flamingvictini both utilized him without an assault vest, and in the latter case managed to get a sleep on hoopa, but they didnt really shine.

tangrowth for president
 
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Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
back to the slate i guess
Tangrowth to B+: Agree
Tangrowth, despite being RU, has maintained pretty solid usage at high ladder for the past few months, as well as in OST. with an assault vest and 252 HP/252 SpD, its raw bulk exceeds heatran's. While its obviously held back in comparison due to it's typing, inability to use non-attacks, and lack of a fire immunity, it does have some pretty effective walling capabilities, providing a solid check to electrics, waters, grounds, and grasses, as well as being able to solidly tank pretty much any neutral hit. here are some fun feats:

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 283-335 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 156-186 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 322-381 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 291-346 (72 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 289-343 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you get the idea. obviously it cant consistently wall all of these, but with regenerator and solid coverage options it can definitely help to rack up damage and function as a solid pivot without throwing away all of its health. tangrowth has respectable 100/110 and a shitload of great moves that allow it to pose a threat despite a lack of investment. Between a good grass stabs in Leaf storm/giga drain, utility in knock off, and coverage in earthquake, sludge bomb, hidden power, and rock slide, tang can threaten or lure mons that would otherwise use it as setup bait.

he can still function without an assault vest, if only to make use of things like sleep powder, synthesis, or toxic, but its probably not that great. abr and flamingvictini both utilized him without an assault vest, and in the latter case managed to get a sleep on hoopa, but they didnt really shine.

tangrowth for president
I would have to disagree. Tangrowth is pretty underrated, don't get me wrong, but B+ is definitely a stretch. It's outclassed by many other bulky Grasses that don't mind status as much, and can take special hits better. Tangrowth needs to rely on AV most of the time to get special bulk sufficient to stomach hits. Tangrowth is slow, hates all forms of status, and when it uses an AV, it misses out on Recovery and Sleep Powder. Tangrowth is a good Pokemon, however I feel that it has too many flaws keeping it from B+.
 
I would have to disagree. Tangrowth is pretty underrated, don't get me wrong, but B+ is definitely a stretch. It's outclassed by many other bulky Grasses that don't mind status as much, and can take special hits better. Tangrowth needs to rely on AV most of the time to get special bulk sufficient to stomach hits. Tangrowth is slow, hates all forms of status, and when it uses an AV, it misses out on Recovery and Sleep Powder. Tangrowth is a good Pokemon, however I feel that it has too many flaws keeping it from B+.
 
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I would have to disagree. Tangrowth is pretty underrated, don't get me wrong, but B+ is definitely a stretch. It's outclassed by many other bulky Grasses that don't mind status as much, and can take special hits better. Tangrowth needs to rely on AV most of the time to get special bulk sufficient to stomach hits. Tangrowth is slow, hates all forms of status, and when it uses an AV, it misses out on Recovery and Sleep Powder. Tangrowth is a good Pokemon, however I feel that it has too many flaws keeping it from B+.
i mean the only other bulky grasses in all of ou are ferro, venu, amoongus, and celebi. ferro and venu are definitely better all around but are deservingly A/A+. amoongus is in the same tier as tang right now and personally i feel it deserves a rise too but i didnt mention it. celebi is often held back defensively by its psychic typing (especially on the special side) as well as having worse overall bulk (though it does get lefties).

i dont think status is a huge issue for it. every bulky grass is going to be switching into scalds and eating burns and besides celebi none of them particularly enjoy it. tangrowth and amoongus at least have the benefit of not having to use turns to heal off the residual damage unlike ferro/venu though. its rarely in for more than a few turns at a time since most of its damage comes from lures or just naturally threatening something like waters, so toxic isnt a huge problem (granted the other four are basically immune so whatever). para isnt really a big deal either since it really only adds dice to its ability to lure stuff and check cm sweepers; its still a hard check/counter to a number of things that its picked to cover and can compensate for lost turns with regen to an extent.
 
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Tornadus to S : Disagree
This thing is overrated imo , it's pretty fast I know but I mean it doesn't have "good" offensive stats and pretty frail on the physical side just hurricane hit hard and it's like Focus blast , you can't really know when it's going to miss and it's dangerous in a 1VS1 situation against things that can set up like CharX / Altaria or in a 1V1 situation.

Mega Gyarados A to A- : Agree
I know it's still pretty good but in this agressive metagame , a set up sweeper without heal is pretty bad , if I use this thing i will prefer use regular Gyara with Leftovers and sub which is actually better imo , don't really know why use it over others DDancer in OU except for the bulk (and even U-turn and volswitch / Fighting / Fairy / Grass resists is bad) but if you have the bulk but not the heal you can't do your job well to set up or checking things (look at M-Aggron or AV Goodra) and the popularity of Azumarill and Keldeo don't help him , I think it's time to drop.

Crawdaunt B- to B : Agree
With only 2 counters in the tier (Bulky Alt and Venusaur) Crawdaunt is very scary , no one want to switch to this thing , even Keld or Azu hates lost their item and take like 40% to an Adaptibility boosted Knock off , this thing eats stall for breakfast (except Alt and Venu stall obviously) and has priority to Revenge kill Excadrill or Volcarona
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 166-198 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 234-278 (59.5 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-182 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie A- to A : Agree
One of the best spinner in the tier , good speed , good defensive sets which can beat Heatran and huge utility with fast Thunder wave (underrated set imo) , offensive sets with Analytic hits hard on the switchin , it can lure ferro and scizor with HP Fire , and beat dragons type with Ice beam , or Slowbro with Tbolt thanks to the amazing movepool , it need a rise.

Other stuff i'm agree with : Latios A+ never S please it's the same Latios even with the metagame changes / Mega Aerodactyl to B+ / Mega Heracross to B.
 
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I'm not really able to give an informed opinion on whether Tornadus-T should be S rank or not, but I will say this. Every team I have built as of late has Tornadus-T. The man just does so much, he outspeeds Latios, Gengar, Starmie, Serperior and provides as a good check to them thanks to his great bulk with AV, has plenty of hitting power with a strong STAB with a great offensive typing like Hurricane, and incredibly nice utility with tools like Knock Off and U-Turn to provide nice opportunities for a Pokemon to switch-in incase they do send in a Pokemon Tornadus-T can't handle like Mega Charizard X. To top it all off, he can heal with Regenerator so his bulk is exemplified even further.
 

Subjugator

Banned deucer.
I'm gonna disagree with Kyurem-Black to A- Rank. It's a really awesome wallbreaker with tons of uncovered potential, and has pros that strongly outweigh the cons. The first thing that comes to mind when looking at Kyurem-Black is that it has the highest BST in OU. To recap, it has the highest BST, at a staggering 700, in all of normal competitive play besides Ubers and AG. Unfortunately, this a little misleading, as Kyurem-Black has a lot of drawbacks keeping the cover-legendary from ascending to Ubers. It has a Base 95 Speed, which is decent, but kind of slow following the Gen 6 Power Creep leaving lots of room to improve. Because of its rather average speed, Kube's Speed Tier leaves something to be desired, leaving it outsped by many Pokemon that would be able to defeat it in the right conditions such as Mega Pinsir, for example. Next, you would find its terrible defensive typing. This gives it a plethora of weaknesses, while also having a few key resists, such as Water and Electric. For the cherry on top, we see that it has a pretty darn bad offensive movepool (which is part of the reason Kyuwhite went to Ubers and Kube stayed), forcing it to go Mixed most of the time to get both STABs.

However, when you look past that, you see many good qualities that keep it a strong threat today. It is definitely one of the most bulky offensive Pokemon in the entire game, it's massive 125/100/90 bulk allowing it to survive super-effective hits such as a HJK from Hawlucha, and sometimes a SE from Tyranitar. It has epic offensive stats, running mixed and dedicated sets very well, breaking through numerous walls such as Mega Sableye, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, as well as making TankChomp and Landorus-Therian run for their lives. It has 170/120 offenses, which is perfect for a mixed attacker, as almost nothing can switch into it in OU. It's ability, Teravolt, is essentially a Mold Breaker that allows Kyurem-Black to destroy things like Mega Venusaur. Sporting the strongest Outrage in the game, it has physical moves such as Outrage, Fusion Bolt, and Iron Head for coverage and smashing through fairies, bulky waters, and sweeping with a STAB 170 Attack Outrage. Something that has decent bulk, unmatched power, and ability that turns it into a scary wallbreaker should definitely remain in A Rank in my opinion.
 

WhiteQueen

i’m the prettiest
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
Can I nominate Excadill for S rank? It's one of those Pokemon that can be effective both offensively and defensively.

Offensive: With sand support and a Life Orb, Excadrill is powerful enough to hit most everything hard with its dual STABs and Rock Slide without a need for setting up. The fourth move can be either Rapid Spin / Swords Dance / Magnet Rise / Substitute. It can also run a more study Swords Dance set by equipping Leftovers or Air Balloon.

Defensive: With Mold Breaker and very minimal EVs investment in Speed, Excadrill can play mind games with standard Rotom-W. It also stops Raikou cold and can help slow down VoltTurn teams with smart plays. It's the only viable Pokemon in existence that can set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye. On top of that, it's the best counter to all Clefables. Clefable can't paralyze it and even a Flamethrower does less than 35% to Specially Defensive Excadrill. Excadrill can also switch into most Latios and Latias with ease.

A Pokemon as versatile as Excadrill with the ability to play both offense, defense, set up Stealth Rocks, and hazard control is too good to not be S-ranked.
 
Can I nominate Excadill for S rank? It's one of those Pokemon that can be effective both offensively and defensively.

Offensive: With sand support and a Life Orb, Excadrill is powerful enough to hit most everything hard with its dual STABs and Rock Slide without a need for setting up. The fourth move can be either Rapid Spin / Swords Dance / Magnet Rise / Substitute. It can also run a more study Swords Dance set by equipping Leftovers or Air Balloon.

Defensive: With Mold Breaker and very minimal EVs investment in Speed, Excadrill can play mind games with standard Rotom-W. It also stops Raikou cold and can help slow down VoltTurn teams with smart plays. It's the only viable Pokemon in existence that can set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye. On top of that, it's the best counter to all Clefables. Clefable can't paralyze it and even a Flamethrower does less than 35% to Specially Defensive Excadrill. Excadrill can also switch into most Latios and Latias with ease.

A Pokemon as versatile as Excadrill with the ability to play both offense, defense, set up Stealth Rocks, and hazard control is too good to not be S-ranked.
Gotta disagree with some of your points. Substitute Exca has no real purpose besides avoiding a bisharp sucker punch and there's no real reason to run leftovers on it.
It can only switch in on volt switch on Rotom which really isn't that big of a deal. The other points in that paragraph are true but not enough for it to go to S imo. Excadrill is a mediocre stealth rock user and not a very sturdy one compared to mons such as hippowdown,and can't get tons of chip damage against spinners such as garchomp does. It's a terrible spinner and loses to most common rockers such as chomp,ferro,lando,hippowdown, and skarmory. Stay in A+
 
Tangrowth to B+ easily.
This thing is seriously underutilized on bulky builds atm. Think of it as a sort of more offensive amoonguss, because it largely fills the same role minus the fairy counter (to which it still doesn't even do badly with, but that is not my point) Its bulk naturally is fantastic with a huge 100 hp, and 125 defence. Adding in assault vest to make up for its lackluster spdef it comes out as this monster of a tank, able to take insane attacks like +3 manaphy ice beam (+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) His weakness is that it is very item dependent, but having a teammate to absorb knock offs is not difficult. The main draw to differentiate itself from Amoonguss who is consistently argued to just be better is its versatility in its offensive presence. Amoonguss might be more reliable, have access to recovery AND regenerator but, tangrowth can pump out damage and utility while filling a very similar role. It has but not limited to: Leaf storm, giga drain, knock off, rock slide, earthquake, hidden power, focus blast, poison jab, and power whip. It also has support moves to use outside of assault vest but there is no reason to use that sort of set at all when amoonguss does it better.

Thats it for my rant on tangrowth, I've recently fallen in love with the thing and created a team based on the regen core of tangrowth and cm slowbro. Which looks like this:
Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
 

Subjugator

Banned deucer.
Can I nominate Excadill for S rank? It's one of those Pokemon that can be effective both offensively and defensively.

Offensive: With sand support and a Life Orb, Excadrill is powerful enough to hit most everything hard with its dual STABs and Rock Slide without a need for setting up. The fourth move can be either Rapid Spin / Swords Dance / Magnet Rise / Substitute. It can also run a more study Swords Dance set by equipping Leftovers or Air Balloon.

Defensive: With Mold Breaker and very minimal EVs investment in Speed, Excadrill can play mind games with standard Rotom-W. It also stops Raikou cold and can help slow down VoltTurn teams with smart plays. It's the only viable Pokemon in existence that can set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye. On top of that, it's the best counter to all Clefables. Clefable can't paralyze it and even a Flamethrower does less than 35% to Specially Defensive Excadrill. Excadrill can also switch into most Latios and Latias with ease.

A Pokemon as versatile as Excadrill with the ability to play both offense, defense, set up Stealth Rocks, and hazard control is too good to not be S-ranked.
I wouldn't agree. Excadrill is far from being an S Rank Pokemon. First of all, I would like to point out how Sand-Dependent it is, implying that it needs another Pokemon to really sweep. Base 88 Speed is good, but it isn't really usable for a sweeper without the sand boost. I am not sure why you would say that Excadrill can set up rocks against Mega Sableye, because what will actually happen is that it will just be burned, and Mega Sableye scores a free switch. Excadrill cannot really switch into Latios as a Life-Orb Boosted Draco Meteor will 2HKO offensive variants, as well as HP Fire decently hurting Excadrill. Excadrill isn't very bulky, with 110/60/65 borderline, so it comes up short in taking attacks well. Specially Defensive Variants, while surprisingly bulky, still do not take hits exceptionally well, especially physically.

The fact that Excadrill relies so much on sand to get sweeping done, and how it is rather lackluster defensively speaks that it definitely should not rise to S Rank. It is weak to status and requires more support than other Pokemon in S Rank would, and it has a shallow offensive movepool letting it be walled by things like Slowbro and Skarmory.
 

Sun

Who cares if one more light goes out? Well I do...
is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I propose to bring Meloetta in C-
I think it's a great pokemon, has an excellent ability, relic song is amazing with 20% probability to numb the opponent, also changing the form, which has a decent bulk, attack and incredible speed

here is an example of the potential and strength of Meloetta

252 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 272-324 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think he needs a raise, it's a great mon does not deserve the D rank :]
 

Subjugator

Banned deucer.
I propose to bring Meloetta in C-
I think it's a great pokemon, has an excellent ability, relic song is amazing with 20% probability to numb the opponent, also changing the form, which has a decent bulk, attack and incredible speed

here is an example of the potential and strength of Meloetta

252 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 272-324 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think he needs a raise, it's a great mon does not deserve the D rank :]
No offense, but nothing you said truly dictates whether it should rise from D Rank. Meloetta-Piroeutte isn't a good Pokemon, not that it is unviable itself, but that it needs a move to transform. Relic Song is a move that doesn't work against Ghost Type, and Meloetta-Pirouette has to always be mixed to get a decent kick out of Relic Song. It's Pirouette movepool is rather shallow because of its necessity to transform, and to top it off, Pirouette isn't really bulky altogether. Meloetta-Aria is a decent mon, but Piroeutte requires a lot of support to transform successfully, and in the end it is outclassed by Mega Lopunny, who is faster, hits harder, and has a better movepool. It should stay in D Rank.
 

Mannat

is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Won SPL Predictions
No offense, but nothing you said truly dictates whether it should rise from D Rank. Meloetta-Piroeutte isn't a good Pokemon, not that it is unviable itself, but that it needs a move to transform. Relic Song is a move that doesn't work against Ghost Type, and Meloetta-Pirouette has to always be mixed to get a decent kick out of Relic Song. It's Pirouette movepool is rather shallow because of its necessity to transform, and to top it off, Pirouette isn't really bulky altogether. Meloetta-Aria is a decent mon, but Piroeutte requires a lot of support to transform successfully, and in the end it is outclassed by Mega Lopunny, who is faster, hits harder, and has a better movepool. It should stay in D Rank.
Mega Lopunny is also a mega so being outclassed by a mega shouldn't be a reason to rank a mon lowly. Melo-P can do a lot of the stuff that mlop can do without mega evolving, but it needs a turn of setup to do this.
 
I propose to bring Meloetta in C-
I think it's a great pokemon, has an excellent ability, relic song is amazing with 20% probability to numb the opponent, also changing the form, which has a decent bulk, attack and incredible speed

here is an example of the potential and strength of Meloetta

252 Atk Life Orb Meloetta-P Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 343-406 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 272-324 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think he needs a raise, it's a great mon does not deserve the D rank :]
Not sold on this nomination. Outdamaging Mega-Lopunny isn't that impressive, considering Mega-Lop can't hold an item to boost its damage. Not only does Meloetta-P require a turn to transform with Relic Song, but that also eats into a moveslot. Also, M-Lop has Scrappy, which lets it run completely unresisted coverage in its dual-STABs. Meloetta-P also is susceptible to a lot of forms of priority, which is kind of everywhere in this offensive meta. Lop has Fake Out to lessen the priority weakness, but it can also act as an emergency check to offense and get chip damage, which is a really nice perk that Melo doesn't have.

I'm probably not doing a great job articulating my points, but basically, I'm not a fan of ranking Meloetta-P.
 

Martin

gamer boy
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
People are going on about how melo needs a turn of setup to be effective before considering that it is most effective when utilising both formes in combination. While I understand the Lopunny comparison, it doesn't hold much ground when you consider Meloetta as a whole. I mean, sure you could go Relic Song+3 physical moves and compare it to MLop, but the reliance on Melo-P makes this an extremely suboptimal setup - although the difference in strength is definitely very noticable regardless due to the abilityto carry LO, meaning that calling it outclassed is a stretch even then. In addition, the comparison kinda falls apart when you consider that Melo-P functions as a wallbreaker much more than it does an offense breaker (although its ability to do both without even needing to fully invest due to losing no major speed ties with just 236 evs is quite a feat). As a mixed atracker, it is both more efficient at wallbreaking /and/ it is able to capitalise on the kinds of plays that its presence forces, being capable of forcing a 50:50 every time it comes in; if you go to your Melo-A answer and it uses Relic Song, you are forced out and something is probably gonna die. However, going to a Melo-P answer on a Psychic or even a potential Hyper Voice or Dazzling Gleam (elaborated more in my next point, although imo the best mixmelo set has gleam anyway) is gonna leave you out of a Melo-P answer. And this is under the assumption that they are using the Relic Song set in the first place.

The thing that people seem to gloss over is that Meloetta's versatility rivals that of UU Jirachi; between its mixed Relic Song set, its CM (and SubCM) set, its Specs set, its AV set and its special LO set (I guess I could count the physical wallbreaker set too...), it is capable of filling a huge number of roles on a team. This gives it a large amount of surprise value when being used and should also be something to consider with its rank. While, yes, its mixed set is definitely its best set, its stat spread, ability to change formes and amazing pool of options are merely points in its favor when you consider it. Quite frankly it is currently the best thing in D by a long shot. Honestly I'm surprised that its taken until now for someone to nom it (I was always too lazy to tho) and as a regular Melo user I wholeheartedly agree with the rise.

Edit: the offense shift helps it too due to meloetta p thriving v.s. Offense anyway, and the p set is still its best set regardless of its versatility.
 
If Meloetta should be ranked at all, I think Unranked is the best place for it. The positive points it has just aren't enough of a niche, as mixed sets need Relic Song, which leaves you with only three moveslots to work with, as well as being depressingly weak with only 75 base power. Also, as people have said, Mega Lopunny has Scrappy, which means two free slots for it, so M-Lop is even better against offense. Also, both forms of Meloetta are very weak to priority, especially Sucker Punch from Bisharp, so Meloetta can be Pursuit-trapped by it. Unrank Meloetta... it kind of deserves it.
 
If Meloetta should be ranked at all, I think Unranked is the best place for it. The positive points it has just aren't enough of a niche, as mixed sets need Relic Song, which leaves you with only three moveslots to work with, as well as being depressingly weak with only 75 base power. Also, as people have said, Mega Lopunny has Scrappy, which means two free slots for it, so M-Lop is even better against offense. Also, both forms of Meloetta are very weak to priority, especially Sucker Punch from Bisharp, so Meloetta can be Pursuit-trapped by it. Unrank Meloetta... it kind of deserves it.
Relic Song may not be a powerful STAB, but does possess a certain level of kick with investment and a Life Orb boost. Additionally, I've found that mixed sets most optimally contain Psychic and only Close Combat and Knock Off for the P form, which creates so many guessing games its ridiculous. It might not break everything in either form but it's pretty damn difficult to find something outside of a fat fairy. Also, it's not that weak to priority, and while all its forms have three weaknesses to priority in total, it can stomach neutral priority without much of an issue and Meloetta-P doesn't even get OHKO'd by Jolly LO Breloom's Mach Punch.

It's already been said before, but Lopunny is a Mega, and while it's still versatile and can run many sets, it can't go mixed, or change type. Bisharp may be able to Pursuit trap its other sets or a mixed one under certain circumstances, but it still will go scrambling once it's getting threatened by a transformed Melo - or Aria could just go for a Close Combat right off, either on the switch or in the 50/50. I don't see how being able to be Pursuit trapped is that big of an issue for it when other some other Psychics like Latis can barely do anything about it.
 
Can I nominate Excadill for S rank? It's one of those Pokemon that can be effective both offensively and defensively.

Offensive: With sand support and a Life Orb, Excadrill is powerful enough to hit most everything hard with its dual STABs and Rock Slide without a need for setting up. The fourth move can be either Rapid Spin / Swords Dance / Magnet Rise / Substitute. It can also run a more study Swords Dance set by equipping Leftovers or Air Balloon.

Defensive: With Mold Breaker and very minimal EVs investment in Speed, Excadrill can play mind games with standard Rotom-W. It also stops Raikou cold and can help slow down VoltTurn teams with smart plays. It's the only viable Pokemon in existence that can set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye. On top of that, it's the best counter to all Clefables. Clefable can't paralyze it and even a Flamethrower does less than 35% to Specially Defensive Excadrill. Excadrill can also switch into most Latios and Latias with ease.

A Pokemon as versatile as Excadrill with the ability to play both offense, defense, set up Stealth Rocks, and hazard control is too good to not be S-ranked.
Excadrill is a large threat, but I don't believe it is worthy of S-ranking. Excadrill can sweep, but only once its abundant checks have been weakened. It seems like every team these days runs Tank Chomp or Lando-T or even both, and those are very solid answers to Excadrill. Excadrill isn't as splashable as Clefable or Zard-X (or Torn-T which is being discussed for S iirc). Offensive sets require a sand-setter and have a large weakness to priority, the threat of which requires Excadrill to switch and waste sand turns. Really going for the sweep almost requires Smooth Rock on a sand-setter, or aggressive switching that can be easily punished. The 50/50s with Iron Head and Earthquake as opponents switch between their inevitable Ground immunity/Steel resist are also a detriment to Excadrill's sweeping ability. I feel the SpDef set is outclassed by Ferrothorn, which still 2HKOs standard Clefable with Gyro Ball and has recovery options in Leech Seed, plus hazard-setting abilities. Maybe in the one case where the Clef runs Flamethrower Excadrill comes out on top, but Clefable generally has better options for moves than Flamethrower, e.g. Thunder Wave.

In all, I think Excadrill is where it belongs in A+.
 
Can I nominate Excadill for S rank? It's one of those Pokemon that can be effective both offensively and defensively.

Offensive: With sand support and a Life Orb, Excadrill is powerful enough to hit most everything hard with its dual STABs and Rock Slide without a need for setting up. The fourth move can be either Rapid Spin / Swords Dance / Magnet Rise / Substitute. It can also run a more study Swords Dance set by equipping Leftovers or Air Balloon.

Defensive: With Mold Breaker and very minimal EVs investment in Speed, Excadrill can play mind games with standard Rotom-W. It also stops Raikou cold and can help slow down VoltTurn teams with smart plays. It's the only viable Pokemon in existence that can set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye. On top of that, it's the best counter to all Clefables. Clefable can't paralyze it and even a Flamethrower does less than 35% to Specially Defensive Excadrill. Excadrill can also switch into most Latios and Latias with ease.

A Pokemon as versatile as Excadrill with the ability to play both offense, defense, set up Stealth Rocks, and hazard control is too good to not be S-ranked.


really the only rocker that beats mega sableye 1v1 is clefable, tankchomp can beat it to a certain extent with dtail but of course mega sableye can swap back in but tankchomp will out speed and dtail again but it can miss so really it doesnt... Subjugator has already explained how excadrill cant beat mega sableye so i wont talk about that but excadrill's defensive spinner set is terrible it doesnt have the physical or special bulk to really live anything. Even the sets viability rankings only rate it as a b+ set. The only really good thing excadrill can do is sweep. Tbh it should be a rank its only good at sweeping but even then certain things wall it like breloom in particular and mega sableye.
 

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Tbh it should be a rank its only good at sweeping but even then certain things wall it like breloom in particular and mega sableye.
How do Breloom and Mega Sab wall exca when it does a metric fuckton to both with iron head, and it can eq sab while putting immense pressure on both not to switch in?

Calcs in case you don't believe me:

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 231-273 (88.5 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Mega Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
How do Breloom and Mega Sab wall exca when it does a metric fuckton to both with iron head, and it can eq sab while putting immense pressure on both not to switch in?

Calcs in case you don't believe me:

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 231-273 (88.5 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Mega Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

while your calcs may be true if one poke is sacked for either of these pokemon they can shut down exca easy. Sableye can burn it live the earthquake and recover then foul play and obviously breloom can spore or double mach punch

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah... see what i mean sorry i said wall i meant more like shut down granted a poke is sacked.
 
One thing out of the discussion points I'd definetely disagree with is MegaHeracross dropping to B.

I've started using it again recently (the first time ever since X/Y so this is not just someone defending his fav mon lol) and it performed really solid so far.
I guess I don't need to emphasize on what M-Hera does to more defensive and slower builds but even its match-up against offensive teams is better than some make it out to be thanks to its good bulk. Quite a few of the A+ and A ranks can't OHKO Hera and but get OHKO'd back, like Lopunny even with Fake Out + Rocks damage or LO Excadrill to name some of the threats to offensive teams. It can't really switch in against offense but whenever it comes in on something that can't kill it, Hera basically gets a kill because nothing wants to switch in against it.

An other thing which M-Hera benefits from is the current prevelance of TankChomp and defensive Lando-T as rockers and go-to checks for physical attackers, which are basically setup-fodder for Hera and forcing these two in and wearing them down or killing them without much effort is definetely useful for any offensive team. Chomp is always 2HKO'd from Pin Missile and Lando-T's Intimidate can easily be migiated with SD since Lando can't do much back (Stone Edge has a very small chance to 3HKO Hera from full) and +1 Rock Blast easily 2HKOs as well, so getting up rocks on Hera ususally results in a dead Chomp and at least a very weakened Lando-T.

Clefable is also a mon whose presence should stand in Hera's way but standard CM Clef can actually be lured out and killed by Hera with a +2 Rock Blast if it SDs on the Clef-switch-in as you can see in the following replay of a room tour semi where Hera put in a lot of work: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-315600027

So, overall I would not say that the metagame is developing in an unfavourable direction for Hera, it's rather anti-meta and underrated atm imo.
M-Hera definetely has some issues, especially with all the Talons, Pinsirs, Torns, Latis and Zards running rampant but it's still a really solid pick for teams in need of wallbreaking potential and an other dark resist/Bisharp check, so B+ is still fine for it imo.
 
while your calcs may be true if one poke is sacked for either of these pokemon they can shut down exca easy. Sableye can burn it live the earthquake and recover then foul play and obviously breloom can spore or double mach punch

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah... see what i mean sorry i said wall i meant more like shut down granted a poke is sacked.
These aren't really mons without answers themselves, and something being sacked entails Excadrill's already put in some noteworthy work for the team since he's an offensive mon. Generally relying on a sack to get in isn't a good point for the match up unless it's a mon like Dragonite or something that can exert Game changing pressure with that single turn. Excadrill is best played with Sand Support, and a Sand team unprepared for Breloom is probably a low ladder team.

Don't think Excadrill is anywhere near S, but he's pretty solid as one of the tier's two Spinners, and while Starmie hits like a ton of bricks with LO and sometimes Analytic, Excadrill with just the Life Orb hits like a truck carrying a ton of bricks. If he drops to A somehow, Breloom and Sableye aren't new or primary reasons to consider.
 

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Sorry about not having posted here for a while, I've been busy riding the rollercoaster of joy and relief and betrayal and dissapoitement that is using Tornadus-T a lot of times.

So, I kinda agree with what Giagantic and a bunch of other people said a while back about having to change standards for S rank, or rather, the way we think about S ranks. To me at least, up until pretty recently, a Pokemon being S rank meant that it would, on a consistent basis, have no trouble doing its job. That’s why I didn’t see Torn-T as S rank : despite being really good in general, it does have issues that pop up very regularly, and there are certain battles where it struggles. Putting Torn-T in S rank sets a new precedent, we’ve never really had anything as unreliable in S rank.

But setting a new precedent isn’t a bad thing. With the notable exception of Clefable, every S rank at the moment has pretty noticeable issues. XZard, while still being really, really potent, has difficulty setting up in this fast-paced metagame. Sableye is prone to all kinds of wallbreakers and has a hard time switching into anything if weakened. And I don’t think these flaws are too different from Torn-T’s accuracy problems, Latios’s prevalence of checks, Azumarill’s low speed, Manaphy’s need to set up to be threatening, and possibly even more. But despite that, none of these Pokemon feel like S ranks to me, probably because I’m still in the old mindset.

S rank status is much less intimidating than it used to be, and more intimidating than it should be if you really look closely at what’s in that rank. And as the metagame continues to evolve, I can only see them getting worse, heck even Clefable due to the fact that balanced teams are losing popularity. S ranks just keep getting closer and closer to A+ as the metagame progresses and vice-versa, and that’s the sign of a balanced metagame. So yeah, although at one point in time, we reserved S rank for not necessarily flawless Pokemon, but Pokemon whose flaws could actually be ignored, that’s not something we can do anymore, unless we have a mono-Clefable S rank, which is a bad idea because it would worsen our already pretty bad A+ rank inflation.

Consistency is still the most important factor though imo, and though I won’t expect an S rank to put in work in every battle anymore, it’s still important to me for an S rank to be effective a majority of the time. Of course, there are factors like splashability and threat level and whatnot, but more than anything, I consider how often a Pokemon does what it’s supposed to do. After my extensive use of Torn-T these past two weeks, it did perform very well most of the time, so I’m fine with it being S rank (although the times it failed it really failed). Latios I was very sceptical about at first, but it is undoubtedly one of the most defining threats, and despite the fact that its checks are everywhere it’s still capable of a lot : any team with less than 2 dragon resists usually gets completely crushed by it.

Also, just because we lower the standards for S ranks doesn’t mean we need to lower the standards for A+ ranks, in fact, I’d much rather move stuff from A+ to A than the other way round, we just have too many A+ ranks at the moment. Oh yeah, speaking of which, my thoughts on part of the slate/some other stuff discussed :
Mega Metagross is fine in A+. Yes, its checks are pretty common, but it’s still an excellent glue for offensive teams which handles a lot of scary stuff while hitting super hard. The shift towards offense is a great thiong for it since it performs really well vs that playstyle, it can pretty much 1v1 anything on offense especailly if running Bullet Punch (which I personally would never use Metagross without nowadays), and switches in on a handful of offensive threats too. Plus, I’ve been seeing less Garchomp and more Lando-T recently, which definitely benefits Metagross a lot.

I honestly haven’t seen Mega Gyarados in a while, and while it can be really threatening to teams that don’t prepare for it (for instance, teams whose check to Gyarados is a Specs Keldeo), I’m not sure it’s on par with stuff like Manectric and especially Altaria. It’s got great bulk and can set up easily vs any playstyle, but it’s not really *that* powerful even at +1, and unlike Altaria it can’t really come out until lategame due to its lack of recovery which is a problem. Not sure about this one, could go either way, probably leaning towards a drop because I’m more inclined to move stuff down than up generally speaking.

Jirachi is a solid mon, but A seems like a stretch to me. Obviously, this nom is mostly based off the Scarf set, which is a pretty good blanket check/emergency hax button if it’s your only way to prevent getting swept by a Talonflame or something. And while it’s good, there are still a bunch of other steels that are availible on offense, so its niche isn’t exactly unique or anything, and I don’t think it’s better than Klefki in terms of what it checks+the type of support it provides. It also relies a bit too much on hax to check stuff, the odds are in your favor usually but if you need more than 3 Iron Heads to kill something, (which given that Jirachi is pretty weak happens quite often), then you’re unlikely to succeed There’s also the fact that it really sucks vs bulkier teams in general. You have other sets like subtoxic and mix but those suffer from a lot of different problems and have even more competition in their roles (what with being bulky steels for balance teams and everything), so even with those taken into account I don’t think it’s A rank material.

Aero should definitely drop, it’s not on par with any of the A- ranks, it doesn’t hit nearly as hard as it wants to, has pretty bad 4MSS and its meh bulk, is hard to fit on teams, and SR weakness really doesn’t help it switch into all the stuff it’s supposed to. Don't really understand why people hype this up when i've barely ever seen it do much.

Togekiss and Heracross are kind of in the same boat, in the sense that they just annihilate slow, passive teams. And yeah, you can argue that these teams are bad and have problems vs a ton of stuff and shouldn’t be used and whatever, but these teams still exist and are still seen pretty frequently, and being almost guaranteed to smash these builds to pieces is certainly worth B+ rank to me

Amoonguss is pretty good. Nice resists, amazing ability, checks a bunch of big threats, Spore is really good, fits well on a handful of balance and stall teams, just a solid mon overall. Seems about on par with Celebi to me, not much else to say.

Tangrowth I was really sceptical about at first, but man this thing surpassed my expectations, I’d argue it’s even better than Amoonguss due to Knock Off being fantastic utility, good coverage which makes it surprisingly hard to switch into (you don't even need EQ that much ouside of 3HKOing Metagross since Knock Off already cripples Tran a lot, which means you can run Leaf Storm or Giga Drain / Knock Off / HP Fire / Rock Slide and cover a most of the metagame), and the fact that it can 1v1 a pretty large number of threats and then just switch out whenever it’s weakened and do it all again. B+ rank seems appropriate for it.

I'd say Crawdaunt is about as good as Hydreigon, if not better. Good wallbreaker with some defensive applications like swicthing into Psychics and checking Bisharp and stuff. Priority is really important nowadays and gives it a huge edge over other wallbreakers. Move it up.

Manectric is an interesting case. This thing is a massive threat to offense, possibly even more than Excadrill or Lopunny or Zam, but I still don’t think it’s A+ rank because when you compare it to these three, it’s just not as effective againts other playstyles. It struggles a lot against balance and especially stall, and while you can run Toxic to cripple all the stuff that annoys it on those playstyles, you’re going to miss Thunderbolt a lot since you can’t actually break through much, you’re forced to Volt Switch out. That’s another problem with Manectric : as good as Volt switch is, it's a double-edged sword since Manectric can't really stay in and just cut through stuff as easily as stuff like Lopunny can, so it's much more prone to chip damage from hazards, and much more reliant on pivot support, since it can only switch in on stuff a handful of times. Then, there's the fact that it can struggle to find an opportunity to Mega Evolve against offense since most of you see on there has over 105 speed, and running protect once again leads to the problem of not having Tbolt. I think it's one of the better A ranks, but it's not A+.

Starmie can probably move to A rank, although I’m slightly torn on this one since, as I mentioned before, I’d rather drop stuff than raise stuff. But Starmie is a really strong attacker which a lot of offensive teams just cannot handle, especially if they don’t know what coverage it’s running, and access to Rapid Spin makes it a very easy pick on a lot of HO teams. Rapin Spin isn’t its main selling point though imo, heck it can even run a 4 Attacks set which has very limited switchins and is great at luring stuff. It does struggle a bit vs balanced teams though, due to the prevalence of Clefable and Torn-T on them, but as I’ve mentioned beofre, the metagame is getting more offensive, which benefits it. As an offensive threat, I don’t think it’s a stretch to put it on the same level as Gengar or Kyu-B, and access to Rapid Spin just makes it better

I have no opinion on Gastrodon, but if we move it up we should consider move Seismitoad up too; it’s seen a rise in popularity on stall teams as an alternative to Gastrodon with access to SR and Knock Off, as well as a better ability for a defensive Pokemon.

Also, Breloom can possibly rise to A. I’ve used this thing a lot recently and i’m constantly impressed by how much work it puts in. Yes, Amoonguss and Tangrowth rising in popularity counts against it, but those two really aren’t that common. Despite the fact that certain Pokemon can stop it cold, Breloom puts in work pretty consistently. Not only does it check huge threats to offense like Excadrill and Lopunny, it’s also very good against offense, partly due to said threats to offense requiring some kind of slow, bulky glue like Lando-T or Rotom-W. Breloom does a great job on preying on these kinds of Pokemon, first of all by getting off a free Spore, and then by dealing a ton of damage to whatever else comes in afterwards. And it can keep doing this every time the bulky thing comes in. There's a ton of teams it can seriously damage that way. It’s very anti-meta, what with being a threat to offense that beats stuff that’s used to handle common threats to offense in the first place, and the metagame is getting more offensive which benefits it etc etc you’ve heard this before.
It's still pretty good against balanced teams, especially those lacking a Grass-type, and the combination of Spore and Rock Tomb’s speed-lowering makes it much less prediction-reliant than you’d think. Generally speaking, it’s either very effective or complete deadweight, but the instances of the former far outnumber those of the latter, at least from my experience. I can totally see it in A rank, it’s just a very good Pokemon in the current metagame.
 
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