Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

Status
Not open for further replies.


I propose Mamo A- rank, this pokemon is really good in this metagame, where many run fast electric and many bulky ground as raikou, mega mane, lando-T, hippo, chomp, mamo can easily do extensive damage to these only with stab , plus it has access to ice shard, I think is really good for example against scarf lando-t, or however it is useful to eliminate his opponents pokemon with low life, another very good move is freeze dry, remove easily pokemon as gyarados, seismitoad, rotom-w and other bulky water, for example freeze dry by life orb mamo 2hko reg slowbro.

12 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 174-211 (44.1 - 53.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

mamo is also excellent with scarf, he can easily kill mega lop with superpower, combining the scarf at a great 130 atk really become a threat to the offensive team :)
I'm a bit skeptical about this. While mamoswine isn't a bad choice for a team by any stretch, you need to be absolutely sure you want to use it over the likes of other ground and ice type attackers such as Garchomp, Lando-T, and most importantly, Weavile. Weavile is probably what you should be using over scarfed mamo. While mamo can Outspeed Mlop with a scarf, it's weaker due to having no item to hold and is forced to be locked into a move, which can be ugly if you're forced to use EQ. Also, the scarf set is pretty bad. You have options that are both faster and more powerful, like scarfed excadrill, scarfed terrakion, or scarfed Lando-T. Moving on from that. The lead off set is kinda cool, being able set up rocks and cripple a wall with endeavor, but it's shot down by Mlop with fake out or Mega Sableye. I'd also like to note that it actually fails to OHKO defensive Lando-T after intimidate with IC. The life orb set is cool, I suppose, but it has reletively poor defensive typing and is pretty slow. Furthermore, you have to choose between ice shard, Icicle Crash, and freeze dry on its sets. If you choose all of them, you're left with only EQ. While that's not the worst thing in the world factoring in Mamo's solid neutral coverage, but you miss out on superpower, stone edge, and knock off. I don't really wanna hate on mamo and it is somewhat anti-meta, but it still struggles due to low speed and special bulk. I don't really want to ramble and I'm just trying to be an obligatory devil's advocate against your reasoning for a rise. Have a good day!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sun

charizard-x is a pokemon that has been just plain great since being added in x/y. it has amazing typing for handling a bunch of annoying stuff, great coverage, a great ability, and the movepool and stats to abuse these things. it's really as simple as that. some of the things zard-x checks like certain steels & speedy electrics are things that have been around for a long time as well. my main point here is that it's consistently done the same stuff (for the most part) for awhile now... not much has changed.

i know we got rid of the definitions for an S rank pokemon, but i think this nom is more focused on if zard-x ever fit that standard than meta changes. of course, some things like the rise in usage of ground types that can counter / check zard is noteworthy, but these things have been around... we're just seeing a bit more of them now. mega sableye's kinda on the verge of dropping due in part to the STAG (goth) ban, and that kinda lowers the relevancy of zard a teeny bit, but it's not a point worth arguing. other than that, the main big change as of recently is the decline in usage of mega altaria, something that totally counters all of zard's sets except iron tail if you're running heal bell / refresh / specially offensive. my point is, there haven't been any drastic changes to necessarily warrant a drop, and the negative changes that have happened are balanced out by the positive ones.

with that said, i want to go back to my first point in the above paragraph: does zard fit the S rank standards regardless of positive / negative metagame standards or not? i'm not trying to bring a definition into the argument here, but objectively speaking, an S rank pokemon should be a dominant pokemon that is doing something in every game you take it to... even if you take it to a game where the person has 6 deliberate counters, that just proves it pressured them during teambuilding. zard-x is definitely doing quite a bit each game, and it's capable of pressuring teambuilding for sure, but all of this is at the cost of major required team support. regular charizard is one of the worst pre-megas in the tier. it's frail and 4x weak to rocks, making it kinda difficult to bring in. someone's gonna try to argue that this can be applied to any pokemon 4x weak to rocks (focusing on talonflame here), but talon, for example, doesn't have a hard time switching into stuff, and it doesn't take up a mega slot, opening up your mega slot to allow more freedom when building & leading to you having an easier way of mitigating that rocks weakness. i only use talonflame here because it's in A+ and has the same typing as pre-mega zard.

so basically, zard-x is this super powerful and threatening pokemon that has been a consistently great force in the meta for god knows how long now, but at the same time, it requires a lot of team support in mandatory hazard removal (that you have to keep safe for zard) & means of bringing it in. couldn't you say that any pokemon that can set up and sweep like this would be super powerful and threatening with a bunch of team support? a good way to put it is that i've never found myself putting zard-x on a team after i already have what i'm building around and all that, but with every other S rank (and torn-t), i'm not just building my team around them... zard-x almost has to be built around; the few times i've added it in after have been happy coincidences where the stars just aligned. i'm not saying that an S rank pokemon has to be a "glue" pokemon, but rather, they're something that can fit on a wide variety of teams, and at the same time put in major work each game without much support.

i touched on the question of if S rank standards should be changed or not, and there was some commentary on that (Albacore mentioned it in his post iirc). if the council decides to change the standards of S rank, i definitely think zard-x should stay, but ignoring that hypothetical, it should drop to A+.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Mega Sableye S -> A+
So let's rewind a while back. Sableye was firmly entrenched in S rank about a year ago along with Mega Metagross as the best megas. Then we started experiencing some more offensive shifts with people realizing how good Landorus-I is, and Sableye dropped because typical builds were susceptible to strong wallbreakers. A few months ago, people realized how much of a threat it was - in concert with Shadow Tag Gothitelle which could remove almost all of the relevant wall or stallbreakers that would threaten the stall build. Sableye was key to this equation for keeping hazards off so that Gothitelle didn't get worn down and could switch into threats such as +3 Manaphy etc. Sableye stall became just about the biggest threat in OU during that time with a really powerful archetype that for the most part was being counter teamed in order to beat. We then had the suspect test and deemed Shadow Tag uncompetitive, so Sableye lost a partner in crime - and the key component - in this archetype.

These days Sableye remains a big threat in OU however most of the builds containing it are very slow and bulky. This means that once again these builds are susceptible to powerful wallbreakers such as Mega Gardevoir, Manaphy, LO Torn-T and even pokemon less known as wallbreakers that can use offensive pressure to overload similar checks and counters. In a tier filled with offense, these bulky builds just don't thrive like they did without the support of Shadow Tag, and simply have a number of bad matchups. This isn't an indictment of Sableye's utility, but rather the type of teams it fits on. Unlike fellow S rank Clefable (the most apt comparison, because they are bulky utility pokemon), Sableye doesn't put on as much pressure to the other team, primarily because its CM set is generally not as powerful as its utility set and it also doesn't have access to that yellow color. It also does not fit as well onto balance teams and isn't as splashable because it takes up a Mega slot. Simply put, Sableye is still a threat but it's just not what it was when it rose to S rank and I would certainly not call it a bigger threat than Keldeo or Mega Diancie in the current metagame.
 

eldes

Banned deucer.
i think by this point all s rank mons are gonna drop to a+ rank
the metagame just seems more balanced enough to warrent it it seems
 

Subjugator

Banned deucer.
i think by this point all s rank mons are gonna drop to a+ rank
the metagame just seems more balanced enough to warrent it it seems
I wouldn't agree wholly.
Clefable should stay in S Rank. I feel that it's the only bona fide Pokemon in S-Rank that deserves to stay there. Really all of them are okay, but Clefable definitely is a great example of a good S-Rank Pokemon. Mega Charizard X is also worthy of staying there. However, I wouldn't be really sure about Mega Sableye, as it has experienced an unfavorable metagame shift.
 
so basically, zard-x is this super powerful and threatening pokemon that has been a consistently great force in the meta for god knows how long now, but at the same time, it requires a lot of team support in mandatory hazard removal (that you have to keep safe for zard) & means of bringing it in. couldn't you say that any pokemon that can set up and sweep like this would be super powerful and threatening with a bunch of team support? a good way to put it is that i've never found myself putting zard-x on a team after i already have what i'm building around and all that, but with every other S rank (and torn-t), i'm not just building my team around them... zard-x almost has to be built around; the few times i've added it in after have been happy coincidences where the stars just aligned. i'm not saying that an S rank pokemon has to be a "glue" pokemon, but rather, they're something that can fit on a wide variety of teams, and at the same time put in major work each game without much support.
I have no intention of disputing your point (though most Zard X partners do not possess Pokemon with overloading opportunity costs), but I do have a question: I do not see it as impossible that Zard X has more difficulties setting up and has some teambuilding restrictions issues, but wasn't the fact that Zard X could also burn most of its checks with a bulky Will-O-Wisp set a major factor into letting it into S Rank to begin with (which does not possess the same issues with being team-built around)? Usually when I see "drop this mon because one of its sets faces more pressure than it did a few weeks ago", I usually ask: "is this mon in general face more pressure than a few weeks ago? Or does how it can do to circumvent such pressure (ie screw over checks by burning them) still make using this mon as worth it?" Don't look at me for this answer, as you would be more knowledgeable to answer this type of question. I have barely played a lick of competitive Pokemon over the past 5 months, even if I still understand most of the meta works, and you have a greater understanding of how mons come out in practice.
 
Moving for
->A+

MSableye was at one point metagame defining enough to be put up for a suspect test, but now the metagame has once again shifted in favour of more offensive teams that perhaps don't give Meye the breathing room it needs; MEye excels against teams that rely on stuff like Ferrothorn to rack up passive damage via hazards, it perhaps struggles vs the teams that rely on stuff like Rocky Helm Chomp for their Rocks because they can continually chip away at Mega Eye with EQ or force a phaze with DTail. Also the fact that Fairy+Zone offense is experiencing a resurgence, also makes it even harder for MEye to do its job properly. THats not to say its bad its just that certain mons that are extremely popular make its life harder than it was before. MEye still excels vs stuff like Hippo balance or the extremely common teams that solely rely on Ferrothorn for their hazards. It is also getting harder for MEye to the spin blocking job for stall with people using stuff like LO Spin Exca and LO mie more, which extremely pressures the stall team, trying to keep its hazards down on the field. Also I just wanna say that the set that usually puts in the most work imo atm is probably Foul Play/WoW/Toxic/Recover, if only because otherwise MEye loses to Sp.Def BU TFlame :)
 
I have no intention of disputing your point (though most Zard X partners do not possess Pokemon with overloading opportunity costs), but I do have a question: I do not see it as impossible that Zard X has more difficulties setting up and has some teambuilding restrictions issues, but wasn't the fact that Zard X could also burn most of its checks with a bulky Will-O-Wisp set a major factor into letting it into S Rank to begin with (which does not possess the same issues with being team-built around)? Usually when I see "drop this mon because one of its sets faces more pressure than it did a few weeks ago", I usually ask: "is this mon in general face more pressure than a few weeks ago? Or does how it can do to circumvent such pressure (ie screw over checks by burning them) still make using this mon as worth it?" Don't look at me for this answer, as you would be more knowledgeable to answer this type of question. I have barely played a lick of competitive Pokemon over the past 5 months, even if I still understand most of the meta works, and you have a greater understanding of how mons come out in practice.
sorry i took awhile to reply to this... totally forgot. anyways, in my post i explained that i wasn't necessarily discussing the nom on the grounds of metagame trends / shifts / w.e, but rather the whole idea of an S rank. the standards / qualifications for something to rise or drop are subjective & different for every pokemon, and the definitions were removed to enforce this. however, there still has to be a bit of broad, general standard for this type of thing that isn't based on some silly definition. charizard is a one-sided pokemon in the sense that it's super powerful and capable of doing a lot in a battle, but it requires quite a bit of support to actually get to the point, unlike any of the other S ranks (or potential S rank torn-t).

the will-o set is definitely good at taking on checks to zard-x, but that doesn't really negate that main point i made.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
scizor-mega.jpg


Mega Scizor (Alias Red power ranger) too S!

As the metagame has adapted, through the rise and fall of Manaphy, Goth stall and Charizard-X, the Red Ranger has been a staple in the OU metagame. From it's dominate spot in XY, too its stable spot in A+ throughout ORAS Mega Scizor has always been an excellent pokemon. And you know what keeps it there? Consistency. This pokemon is the definition of consistency. It doesn't need support in a metagame where a fire resist is necessary already, and the recent metagame trends and suggestions should validate a rise.

Consistency. The ability to preform ones function without much hindrance is something truly to be cherished. Mega Scizor is one of the most consistent pokemon in the metagame. You just know when facing Scizor that shit, do I have a stop to this? And no, Garchomp doesn't counter. However, you're also certain that unless you're facing mono-fire Mega Scizor is going to be putting in work. The large variation of sets this pokemon has is something, but it's not like other unpredictable mons, the counter mostly overlap. Zapdos, Talonflame, Infernal and Charizard-X are pretty surefire regardless of what set you're running. However, this also means that by sheer typing and defence Mega Scizor provides some of the best defensive capabilities that you can find on an offensive team.


But this is something that it's always done, it's fact that Mega Scizor does the following:

  • Provides very powerful priority, of an uncommon type.
  • Provides offensive checks to a lot of very powerful offensive threats, who will usually absolutely slay common offensive teams, this includes: Scizor, Weavile, Diancie, Mega-Altaria, Mega Metagross, Azumarill, Gengar and Latios. Yes, there's more things Mega Scizor handles, but these are mostly things that offence/bulky offence usually struggles heavily with, so I mentioned them specifically.
  • Versatility and splash-ability across all playstyles. You can find Mega Scizor on a large variation of playstyle, it's bulky defog set can be found on stall. It's Bulky SD, U-turn SD set can be found on Bulky offence/Balance and Hyper offence really appreciates. The hyper offensive one being its newest, and one that really shines in the metagame, here's an archived team with Mega Scizor
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/without-a-fight-hyper-offense.3522480/

  • The current metagame has truly been shifting towards Mega Scizors favour. TankChomp has fallen in usage, its no longer number one in usage in the 1815s, surpassed by Landorus-therian. Next, both Azumarill and Tornadus-T have been nominated and discussed for S rank, truly something that would indicate a rise in their viability and usage? And a Tornados lacking heat wave, you know what we call that? Red ranger food. The drop of Manaphy and the potential drop of Charizard-X. Both of these mons bothered Scizor, Charizard-X countering and Manaphy being an annoyance with scald burns. Clefable is still a very dominate threat.


But... Let's talk about some negatives about Mega Scizor, probably the biggest ones being that it's got some really-really hard counters. Pokemon that can consistently come in on Mega Scizor and prevent it from sweeping, these pokemon aren't always easy to deal with. However, aside from Mega Charizard-X these pokemon have all been dropping in viability. And in truth, I feel the metagame has shifted towards Mega Scizors favour. It's time for Red ranger to rise too S
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Garchomp sorta being overtaken by Lando-T isn't all good news for Mega Scizor as a good number defensive Landos run SD now to prevent stuff like Scizor/Clefable from being a problem. Not like Chomp's died out entirely either. Fast Heatran is a lot more popular than SpDef too, meaning that it checks all variants of Mega Scizor even max speed Jolly. Then we have Keldeo - one of the best Scizor checks - which is quite frankly amazing right now. Dark types everywhere - so Keldeo enjoys both checking them and partnering with them.

I find the bulky SD set is no longer that amazing either. It's forced to Roost a fair amount and at +2 it still isn't powerful enough to defeat most of its checks unless they've been severely weakened. I prefer offensive SD which is certainly a better cleaner but can't be thought of as a reliable counter to things like Mega Metagross, Gardevoir, and so on.

Manaphy dropping and Zard potentially dropping speaks more to the parity of the tier than their downfall as threats (k maybe not as much in Mana's case), so I don't think that's a very strong argument for Scizor to rise. Guess Diancie being insane right now is something but many of them run HP Fire making Scizor not a safe switchin.

Keep it in A+ rank, it still suffers from problems like having terrible coverage, low speed (not always mitigated by BP) and being easily lured. Checks are abundant too.
 
Last edited:
Now I have been watching how things develop (all according to my prediction) and have seen no small degree of skepticism towards the notion of dropping either Mega-Sableye or Mega-Charizard X (though primarily in concerns to ZardX). I am hoping that by reading this those that are against this proposed dropping of what have been 2 firmly regarded S rank Pokemon will be able to see why I and many others view them as A+ Pokemon over S.

The Metagame: Let me just make it clear, the metagame is an absolutely massive reason as to why these pokemon, are not, in my opinion S rank. The Meta is extraordinarily offensive with hard hitters abound such as Soft-Sand Lando, Hoopa etc, or Speed devils such as Weavile, Talon etc and more. Offense is clearly king at the moment and that is not good for either Charizard X or Mega Sableye as I argue:

-where for Charizard X it usually wants to sweep and hit things hard but is unable to do so because of Stealth rocks and hazards, fast threats, Bulky Ground types and so much more. A major point that many pro-ZardX fans (or haters) is the damage output of Flare Blitz Zard X omitting the fact that in order to do said damage it has to deal with the recoil that further limits its survivability on top of SR. Yes, its dual stab coverage is amazing but it is not leagues above the rest in such a manner that befits S rank (S rank being those that are efficient, powerful, pros outweighing cons, and most importantly can do its job without relying on team support but also able to support said team).

-where for Mega-Sableye similar issues pop up in that it has a hard time taking hits on the switch in due to the damage output of such things as Lando-t or Latios (just examples there are plenty more) especially if it has yet to mega which it is often unable to do immediately nor is it always desired to mega right off the bat due to the power of priority Will-O-Wisp. Priority Wisp is amazing but its pre-mega bulk is terrible and its mega-bulk is illusory due to its 50 hp and its real bulk stems from a combination of its typing + ability + access to recover.

I think my biggest point is the simple fact that if you compare Charizard X to any of the other power houses of OU, it does not stand above them in terms of power, speed, utility, and so on. Mega-Sableye though great at influencing the opponents decision to hazard/status/etc is inhibited by its inability to take hard hits and in such an aggressive environment this limits its benefits in my opinion. Neither are on the same level as Clefable who is able to perform a myriad of roles, blanket check no small number of prominent Pokemon all while being able to operate both by itself and as a cohesive element of your team.

These are my reasons why I personally feel that neither Zard x nor Mega-Sab are worthy of S rank. Feel free to disagree though, ultimately though I attempted to present an unbiased argument much of my opinion is still based on my perspective.
 
Last edited:

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Guess I'll take this time to make a clarification before anything happens regarding this. Sooo I know I had a post regarding how I disagreed with a re-imagining of S rank yada yada lol. But we may see something of the sort happen. Not in the sense that the strict definition of S rank (best in the meta) changes but moreso what it means to be S in the current meta. I mean if you think about it it would be kind of silly to have Clefable all alone in S rank like its head and shoulders above everything in A+ cuz that's just not true. On that note it's not so much that S would be looser but moreso that metagame defining traits have less to do with dominance currently and more with consistency, since in this current metagame nothing is all that dominant, even Clefable.

Anyway this is just another reason I feel it is best that we don't have strict definitions on rankings. Actually had a brief argument with AJ about it where he suggested potential criteria i.e. to be S rank a mon has to be at least top 3 at its classification such as utility or something and I think this is just too rigid.

So yeah on that note don't be too surprised with upcoming changes when they do happen. Most of the major moves that I anticipate to happen will likely have been hinted at or discussed in the thread.
 

p2

MONEYMOVESBU$INE$$
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
time for a controversial opinion:

I don't like the thought of dropping Sab because in terms of restricting teams, it's still one of the biggest restraints in the tier. The amount of builds it completely invalidates by existing is pretty big, any Spiker against Sab that isn't a specific Klefki set is turns the game into 5-6 in the Sab users favour every single time. It's also one of the few mons that can actually consistently switch into Gengar on fatter builds as well and its existence is a god send for bulky teams because it forces a more specific kind of stallbreaking which makes it a pain in the ass to deal with in games and in the builder because in a realistic scenario, all of its weaknesses are easily accounted for by teammates and when they have this barrier against "normal" stallbreaking, it lets these teams function so much more effectively.

If anything, Sab should remain S rank purely because it's up there with the biggest building restraints in the entire tier, its ability to render many common Pokemon useless, while providing possibly the best defensive utility in the entire game and it does this consistently. I'd say consistency is a pretty big part of this because the amount of builds it improves by just being on them is ridiculous. And common stallbreakers that beat Sab are kinda falling off a little, Manaphy is less common, BU Talon is less common etc

s rank should be sab clef torn-t and maybe keld, in no particular order tbh
 
Last edited:

Vertex

my beautiful dark twisted curry
going to comment on something i was planning to do a long time ago, but i guess i should do it right now before the metagame becomes unfavorable towards zygarde.
fsr 'vertex' in replays isn't popping up so you can look at them. peaked 1 before the reset with dd zygarde so if replays are needed please search them up for me since i can't access them right now
people might be like oh man it won't be good until 10% zygarde form and complete form zygarde is released in the future, but this thing is already a threat to behold. i remember my boy Professional2341 peaking with subcoil zygarde which is cool and stuff, but its viability really rests in its dd set.

8 hp / 248 atk / 252 spe with a life orb (or earth plate) consisting of eq / edge / espeed / dd. outrage is fine over edge but being able to hit togekiss is too good to pass up and being locked makes me realize i'd rather nuke stuff with outrage zardx and scarf kyurem-b. basically, espeed just prevents yourself from being revenge killed by weavile and talonflame while taking out weakened kingdra's on opposing rain teams. it also beats faster scarfers when they are in +1 lo espeed range such as scarf keldeo. avoiding priority is super good and +1 earthquake with the items i mentioned is just ridiculously powerful. we have all been saying garchomp with dd would be broken and zygarde is the origin of these beliefs. while i ain't comparing these two, they share similar strong af moves and zygarde's natural bulk makes it super easy to set up with. it isn't a c- rank threat
 

i agree with p2 on mega sableye. i'm gonna keep it short because he's pretty much covered everything in his post. while i agree that shadow tag (gothstall) being gone made sableye a bit less of a metagame defining force, it didn't nerf the thing enough for it to drop to A+. while those gothitelle + sableye stall builds were a big issue, sableye still contributes greatly to other bulky builds... specifically balance which didn't really benefit from gothitelle as much as the stall builds did. while there's been a rise in usage of sableye checks like torn-t, for example, there are also some checks that have fallen out of style a bit (like manaphy). overall, i think the meta has shifted in a way where people aren't running noticeably more or fewer sableye checks, but rather, there's just a rise in different checks and a decline in some of the older checks; it kinda equals out.

also, sableye is definitely a pokemon that puts a ton of pressure during both teambuilding and battling. like fleg said, it puts a ton of pressure on virtually every spiker thanks to magic bounce, but it also puts a ton of pressure on stuff with will-o. sableye simply having will-o really limits potential checks for it; non-fire type physical attackers that would normally check sab don't. this isn't something new, but i think people need to be reminded of this...

i agree that the meta has seen a shift towards more offensive stuff, and we haven't seen too many "popular" mega sableye builds as of late afaik, but sab is still a huge force in the meta. it puts a crazy amount of strain on building (even with gothstall gone), and it can shut down a ton of stuff in battle. it should definitely remain S for a little while.
 

Mega Sableye S -> A+
I know that this has been said a few times already above but with Goth gone, it lost an extremely valuable partner in crime. If I remember correctly, Mega Sableye rose to S when Goth stall builds were super common and now that it is gone, I feel it could drop. With offense being dominant and stall, Sableye's play-style, being hurt from the loss of Goth, I could see Mega Sableye in A+.


Mew A- -> B+
This is something that I don't feel as strongly about but I think a drop might be warranted. On the Sets viability rankings, mew's Utility (Defog) set is ranked B+ with its Stallbreaker set ranked A-. With Stall being less prevalent since the Goth ban, stallbreakers, in my experience, are not as effective. I have been using this a lot lately and while it can still useful against offense for spreading burns, it does struggle against it with all the dark spam, Xards, and Talonflames running around. Overall, I feel this could drop because its supposed best set is, in my experience, is less effective now that stall is not as common since the Goth ban, and because I don't think that the stalbreaker set outclasses the Utility set anymore, which is currently ranked B+.
 

Sun

Who cares if one more light goes out? Well I do...
is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

Mega Sableye S -> A+
I know that this has been said a few times already above but with Goth gone, it lost an extremely valuable partner in crime. If I remember correctly, Mega Sableye rose to S when Goth stall builds were super common and now that it is gone, I feel it could drop. With offense being dominant and stall, Sableye's play-style, being hurt from the loss of Goth, I could see Mega Sableye in A+.


Mew A- -> B+
This is something that I don't feel as strongly about but I think a drop might be warranted. On the Sets viability rankings, mew's Utility (Defog) set is ranked B+ with its Stallbreaker set ranked A-. With Stall being less prevalent since the Goth ban, stallbreakers, in my experience, are not as effective. I have been using this a lot lately and while it can still useful against offense for spreading burns, it does struggle against it with all the dark spam, Xards, and Talonflames running around. Overall, I feel this could drop because its supposed best set is, in my experience, is less effective now that stall is not as common since the Goth ban, and because I don't think that the stalbreaker set outclasses the Utility set anymore, which is currently ranked B+.
About mega Sableye, I disagree with you.
This Pokemon is a very versatile, is very good in the team balanced, also it provides a really good skill, and a great bulk, I think it should remain Sableye S rank.

I disagree about mew, because despite his best set (stallbreaker) is little used for the low usage of stall at this time, is still a very good Pokemon, has a lot of utility with wow, taunt, knock off, also can running moves as ice beam, volt switch (very common now)
I think it will always remain one of the most used just because it can be used as you wish and can be scaled to any team
I think it deserves to remain in A -
 
Last edited:
going to comment on something i was planning to do a long time ago, but i guess i should do it right now before the metagame becomes unfavorable towards zygarde.
fsr 'vertex' in replays isn't popping up so you can look at them. peaked 1 before the reset with dd zygarde so if replays are needed please search them up for me since i can't access them right now
people might be like oh man it won't be good until 10% zygarde form and complete form zygarde is released in the future, but this thing is already a threat to behold. i remember my boy Professional2341 peaking with subcoil zygarde which is cool and stuff, but its viability really rests in its dd set.

8 hp / 248 atk / 252 spe with a life orb (or earth plate) consisting of eq / edge / espeed / dd. outrage is fine over edge but being able to hit togekiss is too good to pass up and being locked makes me realize i'd rather nuke stuff with outrage zardx and scarf kyurem-b. basically, espeed just prevents yourself from being revenge killed by weavile and talonflame while taking out weakened kingdra's on opposing rain teams. it also beats faster scarfers when they are in +1 lo espeed range such as scarf keldeo. avoiding priority is super good and +1 earthquake with the items i mentioned is just ridiculously powerful. we have all been saying garchomp with dd would be broken and zygarde is the origin of these beliefs. while i ain't comparing these two, they share similar strong af moves and zygarde's natural bulk makes it super easy to set up with. it isn't a c- rank threat
I personally prefer the Sub Coil Zygarde set, with just enough speed to outspeed skarm and the rest dumped in HP and SpDef it becomes an monster that can beat a lot of stall teams as well as offensive teams (especially ones without whirlwind/roar) after a few coils. As you said prior it can function really well as a late game sweeper, by merit of its impressive bulk, passable offensive stats that can be boosted with ddance and its movepool that gives it more or less all it needs to deal with the majority of things that can cause problems for offensive teams, not to mention it can stall out things like defensive Mvenu. its not amazing as it's still weak to common types like ice and fairy and is completely shut down by status (bar the ever present twave) and of course aura break being useless in OU. Still Zygarde definitely has potential to move up.
 
Mega Sabel should stay in S.

If people are using a bulky team there is absolutely no downside to using this mon. Even without Goth (which btw, should have stayed) it just fucks shit up on the daily. Only one weakness forces teams to use a limited amount of mons, and easily teambuilders can slap checks and counters around their sabel.

Sabel just dunks medicham and all other attackers for that matter, however its untouchability comes when it is paired with a wish user. Like, wow why do people not just spam this shit more. Here is an easy strat for using sabel

1. Get a phwatt special wall
2. burn physica attackers on switch in
3. stealth rock for talonflame
4. free win if you're not retarded when switching

Mega Sabel is a beast on earth, im sad it wasnt banned.

Now Mew, there isnt even a discussion here. it is so versatile its not even funny, if you cannot realize why it should stay in its current tier, you do not know how to play pokemon.



if there are any disagreements hit me up with that quick challenge on showdown.
 
Mega Sabel should stay in S.

If people are using a bulky team there is absolutely no downside to using this mon. Even without Goth (which btw, should have stayed) it just fucks shit up on the daily. Only one weakness forces teams to use a limited amount of mons, and easily teambuilders can slap checks and counters around their sabel.

Sabel just dunks medicham and all other attackers for that matter, however its untouchability comes when it is paired with a wish user. Like, wow why do people not just spam this shit more. Here is an easy strat for using sabel

1. Get a phwatt special wall
2. burn physica attackers on switch in
3. stealth rock for talonflame
4. free win if you're not retarded when switching

Mega Sabel is a beast on earth, im sad it wasnt banned.

Now Mew, there isnt even a discussion here. it is so versatile its not even funny, if you cannot realize why it should stay in its current tier, you do not know how to play pokemon.



if there are any disagreements hit me up with that quick challenge on showdown.


Well I can list a couple of offensive pokemon that beat it. Magic guard Clefable can take any hit from it and hit it back extremely hard or use it as set up fodder. What about a poke like Manaphy? it can heal its status with rain dance and set up on mega Sableye. Mega Charizard x doesn't fear a burn and can set up on any non utility mega Sableye. Mega Charizard Y just outright kills it... did you think about any attackers when you were typing?

calcs on Charizard y

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye in Sun: 247-292 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye in Sun: 279-328 (91.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

First one is utility set second is calm mind.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Zzz discussion topics are old so here's some stuff ranking team has been talking about it you want an "official direction" of discussion

ZardX S -> A+
MSab S -> A+
Keldeo A+ -> S
Latios A+ -> S
Torn-T A+ -> S
Lando-T A+ -> S

These have all been discussed to some degree in the thread except Lando rising. If you want basic reasoning its just a dope glue - checks Exca/Talon/Lop which may just be 3 of the biggest threats to offense. Yeah Chomp does too but it doesn't force mind games against Exca which can EQ switchins and take no recoil. It's also weak to ZardX which is a nice thing Lando has going for it as well as U-turn which is sexy for offense. Honestly clearly overtaken Chomp at this point imo and one of the most consistent and annoying mons in the tier. Double Dance and offensive sets are pretty fresh as well, esp DD luring in other Landos and setting up on them.

Personally of these moves I am most convinced that Keldeo should rise. Loves the abundance of dark types in the meta by checking them and partnering with them (Keld + pursuit is lethal, see xray vs ABR recent tour match as an example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519).

Also may be time to consider dropping Thundurus to A. It's seen a steady decline in viability for a while now. Even the fact that it annoys offense with Twave is offset by longevity issues coupled with the abundance of priority (especially Weavile and Fake Out users) in the tier. It also is threatened heavily by Excadrill under sand and most variants of Ttar (Scarf and Chople) both of which are quite common and powerful these days.
 
Last edited:
I was about to nom Lando-T to s so imma talk about that!

Lando-T is a previous s ranker and something i feel deserves to be s. With so many viable sets under his belt its hard to tell what set a Lando-T is running and sometimes until it reveals a key move (stealth rocks, knock off etc.) impossible. Most of his supposed ice type checks can't swap in on him due to the fear of a stonedge. I also think its worth mentioning he can 1v1 the all popular weavile granted he is sent out at the same time or after weavile is so intimidate can activate.

The scarf set makes him so fast and deals a TON of damage with earthquake and can swap in on a lot more then he should be able to thanks to intimidate. He has a vary workable offensive move pool and as i mentioned before a stellar attacking stat that just makes him so good. This poke forces so many switches its unreal.

I think the only big problem Lando-T has is his weakness to most grass types and rotom wash. I've seen people say keldeo checks him but thats not true for his scarf set anyway...

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 193-228 (59.7 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery keldeo cant swap in on him in fact a lot of his checks can't.

thanks to intimidate his defensive potential more specifically as a physical wall soars.

Something a lot of people forget to mention is that earthplate Lando-T can lure in mega sableye (an s ranker rn) and u-turn out.

This poke can be so much and do so much I have to agree with him going to s.
 
Lando's probably earned it at this point.

he's got multiple good defensive and offensive sets and can take on any role so long as it doesnt require recovery. has a very good physical movepool and attack stat that lets him put out good damage even with no investment, as well as having a ton of utility with knock off and uturn. smack down, swords dance, explosion, and toxic let him break things that could otherwise take free turns off of him. his spatk is good enough to lure things using hp-ice as well as some other things in his special movepool. the popularity of ice coverage also makes yache a good lure item as well.
 
Gdi i just told someone that landot wouldn't be s rank because its not metagame defining. Gotta pay more attention to this thread lol.

Landorus-T To s rank


Right so after reading that s ranks or at least what takes to be one is gonna be changed to what im guessing is the most consistent mons in the tier Landot for s rank sounds pretty good to me. Recently Double dance landot has been pretty hot and scarf landot has been making a return as well and honestly the offensive and even the defensive rocky helmet landot are really good at doing their jobs. DD landot is such a huge threat like the moment this thing grabs a sd+rp boost nothing aside from priority and maybe a few checks here and there stand in its way. Ive seen this thing effectively take out entire squads alone you dont even need to boost both stats for this thing to put in work. Just boost a stat to fit the situation. when combined with Edge quake this things a pretty consistent win con. Then you have scarf landot which has been seeing more use recently which makes for a nice RK and cleaner honestly. Rocky Helmet has always been nice because of its ability to punish lop+exca+talon which are huge threats for offense and getting that extra chip damage is really nice. I remember someone above (i think bludz?) that these things have started to run SD in order to combat mega scizor and Clefable both of which tend to use Defensive landots for Set up which is pretty helpful. Landot's consistently in terms of these three sets alone is pretty good and almost always can put work in. Hell even rotom-w becomes a shaky check vs DD landot. Also ive seen this thing pull off a mixed set with Grass knot/hp ice a few times to lure in stuff like hippo/slowbro/fatchomp/landot which despite not being as good as the other sets makes for a nice lure. This thing deserves S rank solid momentum gainer,rocks setter,win con. DD Sets are godly.

Tornadus-T To S rank


Personally i like using Torn-t. The Av set is a nice cushion for offense teams due to most having a hard time switching into keldeo,latis,gengar which is really nice to have around. Not to mention its got a way around its rocks weakness with regen. Been using LO a bit recently and enjoy using it a lot because of how hard it hits. Hell torn-t can even get around how diancie uses it to get a free mega by running iron tail on AV sets w 8atk evs to ohko diancie. Its a solid and diverse pivot/wallbreaker overall. However one of the biggest issues i always tend to have with Torn-t is how you most times have to risk getting a kill or dieing because you must rely on using torn-t's Stab attack which is really annoying at times where i know hurricane will KO but do i really want to risk it missing and torn-t taking a ton of damage if i miss? Thats one of the biggest factors with torn-t in my eyes as it allows torn-t to be taken advantage of most times due to how you must rely on a fairly inaccurate stab attack. Of course lets not get distracted by the bigger picture here. Av torn can check the threats i mentioned rather well and its wallbreaker set is fairly hard to switch into. This things without a doubt THE BEST AV user in the tier for a very good reason. Its consistent hurricane aside. Im kinda borderline however if Torn-t should rise or not but im not opposed to torn-t rising because of how good it is at its job.

Keldeo to S rank


idk i kind of think keldeo deserves s rank. specs and lo keldeo are pretty good and REALLY strong wallbreakers. While cm keldeo has lost its luster these two sets are pretty good rn. Keldeo hits so damn hard denting all of its resists. Yes latios is Really common currently but its not like keldeos hydro pump does like 40% to latios on switch in. Most of keldeos checks are worn down rather quick thanks to scalds burn chance, this allows keldeo to burn its check switch out then come back in later. Now your latios/latios needs to deal with burn damage+specs hydro pump which really pressures these mons. Hell even defensive starmie gets pressured pretty badly by specs Hp electric. on top of this Keldeo absolutely loves all these dark types currently running amok in the tier which allows keldeo to switch in quite often and force them out. Solid mon overall. Definitely deserves s rank

Latios to S rank
i swear im not bias on this.

Latios deserves s rank. This things without a doubt the best offensive deffoger in the tier and is a fantastic wallbreaker. Cm latios is great at breaking a ton of its checks like heatran which is awesome while 3 atks roost set is also really nice because its a nice check to keldeo while also keeping up offensive pressure with something along the lines of: Draco/psyshock/ hp fire,t bolt,surf,eq Etc. You even got weird options like energy ball and shadow ball which make latios pretty diverse in terms of coverage options. The defog sets are also really nice for the same reason as roost 3 atks good at applying offensive pressure. With keldeo being at his peak once again latios definitely likes how it wards off all these dark types. I agree with latios rising to S rank.

with all the s ranks talked about im just gonna say a little bit about zard n sable.

Zard-x to A+ and sableye-mega to A+


Honestly sables kinda no longer in its prime. without goth sableye stalls not even close to being as good as it previously was and most builds now cant handle all the wall breakers such as manaphy with s tag gone from the tier.

As for zard-x as much as i like this thing it should drop. Landot is really annoying for zard-x and landot is now starting to overthrow chomp which is giving zard-x a hard time overall. Its a great sweeper and wall breaker dont get me wrong but, i feel like its not as good anymore.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Scarf Lando-T is sort of dunking on everything right now. Invalidates a ton of offensive threats and counters win-cons by simply being alive. Aside from hazard removal becoming less relevant, Lando-T's stupidly high tournament and ladder usage is probably one of the main reasons Charizard-X is no longer the top offensive threat.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top