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I haven't been keeping up with metagame trends all that much as of late, so I was wondering if anyone can explain why Zard is being considered to drop? In my eyes it is by far the biggest threat in the game, while not the most reliable or supporting, as that belongs to clefable, if this thing gets to +1 then most teams just drop. This thing is extremely hard to check because this thing has NO COUNTERS. It has everything it needs to beat is "Checks" whether that be SD Flare Blitz, DD Ourtage, Earthquake, getting chip damage on thinks like Lando, wisp, or even things like tailwind for speedy teams. The only thing that hinders it is the rock weakness. It provides utility as it checks electric types, grass types, fire types, bug types, steel types, and can even play mind games with its two mega forms. It doesn't need to set up because it has the power to blow shit up. IMO, if Torn-t is being nominated up then Zard X shouldn't be considered to move down.
Also as a side note, Lando-T should defiantly be S rank. Its role compression is insane and combined with its utility it lets be one of the most consistent pokemon in OU. Not to mention the variety of VIABLE sets it can run.
To be frank, Shedinja really sucks in OU. Sure, it has Wonder Guard, but that just isn't enough of a niche for it to do anything useful in the tier. It pretty much requires a whole team built around it to even switch in. It cannot even stop Pokemon such as Kyurem-B or Mega Gyarados due to their access to Mold Breaker. It's also very vulnerable to super-effective coverage from anything, which means that a lot of Pokemon outclass it in being a pivot. It is also susceptible to random status moves, as it has 1 HP, and if entry hazards are up, it can't even switch in. Combine all this, and Shedinja is just trash in the OU tier.
Disregard everything I said, Shedinja apparently has a niche.
ZardX S -> A+: No
I personally think that it is still a S-tier thread, even when people prepare for it. It still exerts a massive influence on teambuilding, and can smash straight through most of its checks after a DD or two. also, its typing resists or is neutral to most priority, which makes revenge killing it harder. I doubt that the meta has changed enough since it was S-ranked to justify the change.
Keldeo A+ -> S: Yes
Everyone knows what keldeo can do, and that's just about anything. Scarf, specs, LO, CM, etc. Really the only moves that he's guaranteed to have is scald and secret sword: the rest is talorable to your team's needs. With Gothellia and wobbuffet banned, the scarf and specs sets have much less to fear. I feel that he belongs in the s ranks.
Latios A+ -> S Yes
I explained why I supported this a few pages back, but powerful special attackers are quite good right now, and despite his pursuit weakness, he's still phenomenal.
Lando-T A+ -> S
once again, another mon who deserves to be S-ranked not because of just one set but because he can do anything. I know scarf-t may be out of date, but it still makes a great lead and pivot. intimidate really helps him slow down powerful physical attackers.
wait mega latias isn't A-? i agree w/ AM; it should definitely rise lol.
i don't think this one really needs much explanation... just seems like something the VR team glanced over / forgot about if anything. of course, only the people on the VR team could tell us the reasoning, but that's just what it seems.
anyways, for a bit of explanation: it's really just as simple as it being higher in viability than things like mega heracross, celebi, diggersby, dragonite, togekiss, etc..
anyways, for some more "intelligent" posting:
i definitely disagree with thundurus-i dropping. while it is true that things like weavile & fake out users annoy it and sand is definitely a thing, these aren't big enough reasons to warrant a drop. thundurus is still one of the most versatile pokemon in the tier, capable of running a few different sets & variations of those sets, while maintaining consistency among them (other than mixed). with the thunder wave + 3 attacks set, it can seriously cripple & put holes in offensive builds, while at the same time putting a big strain on teambuilding. you almost have to have something to absorb that thunder wave & force thundurus out, especially if your team is already the slightest bit weak to the thing. like i previously mentioned, this seriously limits and puts a huge strain on teambuilding. on top of this, it's still fast enough where it can outspeed and kill quite a few things on offense, making it a huge pain to deal with. with it's nastyplot set, it can still take on offense, but it's now much more capable against fatter builds. this is pretty self explanatory, but it moves on to another thing generally good about thundurus: it's ample coverage options. things like grass knot, knock off, psychic, and the lesser-used iron tail make it capable to hit many of the things that normally counter it.
on top of all of this, people still aren't bringing reliable checks / counters for the thing. on offense, things that look like they can check it + switch in on paper (such as latios) get crippled by thunder wave, or they get hit by a coverage option. the things that purely check it offensively (like weavile) can't switch in, so you're probably sacking something or taking a major hit just to gain momentum off of it. on fatter playstyles, things that check it on paper get hit by its coverage options that are rising in popularity (grass knot for hippo).
thundurus-i should definitely stay A+.
i don't really understand why this is being brought up again. i mean, i get that the VR team is discussing it, but why? discussion on it in the thread stopped pretty quickly when henry basically questioned why the nom was coming up in the first place, and i think that stuff still stands. i get that you don't have to have metagame changes & whatnot to support every nom, but for something that's gonna be rising to S rank, i feel that there has to be some substance in that regard. while henry's post and the original nomination of this thing wasn't super recent in VR terms, it was still fairly recent lol.
i agree that it's a super good pokemon in general, but nothing's really changed to warrant a rise. the main metagame trend that pertains to lati (that i can think of) is the rise in pursuit trappers, especially on balance due to hoopa-u and others. obviously, this is something that is most certainly not favorable for lati, and it allows me to segue into my next one (oh btw stay A+)...
i think i saw this one get brought up earlier in the thread; if not, i saw it get brought up somewhere lol. anyways, tyranitar should rise to A+. tyranitar is one of these driving & defining forces in the meta right now. a huge chunk of balance teams we're seeing carry (scarf or chople) tyranitar to dispose of CM lati, hoopa-u, and other psychic type annoyances to balance. not only that, but it checks the always-present speedy electrics that put a lot of pressure on both offensive and balanced teams, depending on the sets being ran. tyranitar is also the pokemon fueling sand & it's current viability; that isn't to disregard hippowdon, but tyranitar gives you more freedom in building, starting at the simplest thing: playstyles to choose from (it isn't limited to fatter ones like hippo). this isn't to compare hippowdon to tyranitar, just to prevent someone from saying that if ttar should rise (due to sand), so should hippo rofl.
Landorus-Therian to S: Agree
When I first saw this nomination introduced, I was skeptical at first. Sure, Lando-T may function as a great defensive pivot due to Intimidate + U-Turn and has a good defensive typing, but said typing gives it weaknesses to water and ice, two very common attacking types in the tier. It also is easy to wear down through rocks and status and the like. However, I think you all understand my mistake: I only brought into question the defensive set. What Landorus-Theiran has going for it is not only incredible splashability and utility, but versatility. I can think of four viable sets: the aforementioned defensive pivot, the choice scarf set, the offensive EP set, and the double dance set. And Lando has a versatile movepool for these sets to work with. What makes Lando S-tier material alongside its utility and splashability is the fact that it's unpredictable, and for the most part consistent at what it does.
Charizard-X to A+: Agree
The main argument against Zard-X is that the meta has developed around it and that it's not nearly as consistent at getting up a DD and sweeping as it once was. I agree with this much, as someone who's utilized Zard-X on multiple teams, there are numerous checks/counters to it that make it hard to successfully pull off a sweep. The popularity of Sand is a boon to Zard, as T-Tar can stomach even a +2 d-claw from a max attack Zard and do anywhere from 85 to 100% with Edge, while Drill checks it under sand. Zard also finds issue with 4MSS; it would love to be able to run roost in order to minimize damage from Flare Blitz recoil and rocks and the like, but it would also want EQ for OHKOing T-Tar after rocks and OHKOing Heatran in general. Zard is still a monster, no doubt about it, but it just isn't the destroyer of worlds it once was.
Latios to S: Disagree
Latios has many traits going for it. It has a complete nuke in Draco Meteor, a good typing that gives it several key resistances (Keldeo), and good splashability and expansive movepool, offering utility in Defog and good coverage for what its team demands, such as EQ, HP Fire, thunderbolt and surf. With that being said, Latios has issues that I feel keep it from S-rank. Firstly, its nuke and most spammed move, Draco Meteor, come at a great cost: halving Latios's attack. This makes it easy to force out/revenge kill, and the opponent can easily take advantage of it. Secondly, while it has access to roost, Latios can easily be worn down, as it has to deal with LO (really, who runs anything else?), rocks, and potential scald burns (Keldeo.) Lastly, it can suffer from 4MSS, as while it would like do run say defog and roost, it may have to forego one in order to check a threat to its team no other mon could. With all of these in mind, Latios just doesn't make the cut for me. Perhaps if we were gonna go the route of S+/S- ranking, it could squeeze onto S-, but I can't see that happening.
Mega Sableye to A+: Agree
Without Goth, Sableye just isn't as unbeatable as it was before. Fairy types just destroy this guy, as they always have, and now Stallbreakers such as Manaphy can easily use Sableye as set-up fodder, no longer fearing being tricked by Goth. Sableye's loss of its partner-in-crime has seriously humbled it, and while it still does its job quite well, killing it has been easier than ever before.
Keldeo to S: Agree
This makes enough sense. Great typing, powerful attacks, good stat distribution and Scald makes it a tricky foe to deal with. It acts as a good check to Bisharp and Weavile, which is highly valuable, and while you could say that it can't repeatedly switch in, hell that's what the RestTalk set is for. Keldeo's power, coverage, and consistency makes it a top threat in the game, and while the metagame has found ways to deal with Keldeo, "Scald." ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
On Thundurus: I agree with the above posts that Thundurus should not drop. It may not be a true staple of offense but it's versatility and offensive pressure cannot be ignored. It can run special and mixed sets with equal efficiency. This is in addition to it's excellent support movepool containing T-wave and Taunt (which has just come into popularity on other mons). The fact that it has 4 viable movesets in its OU profile attests to its versatility (yes, Volt-Switch and Defiant are great and very underrated). It can break with mixed and sweep with Nasty Plot. It's longevity is an issue when checking things with T-wave but if it has to do this it is being used as an emergency check anyway which just adds to its usefulness. Keep Thundy A+
Starmie: I saw this earlier in the thread and I agree with the consensus that this should be A rank. For my teamslot this is the best hazard remover an offensive team could ask for (yes, even better than Latios at dedicated spinning). It's speed is great and its special attack is ok but its true strength lies in its movepool and ability (Analytic, I never found Natural Cure to be really threatening). Its extensive movepool allows you to tailor Starmie to fit your team in order to support sweepers by luring and removing threats (HP Fire and Thunderbolt hits Ferro and Slowbro respectively) or by patching up your team's weaknesses. It also beats most traditional Rock setters (even Celebi and Clefable don't want to switch into it) AND all spin blockers on the switch (Sab doesn't switch into Analytic Hydro Pump). It's weaknesses are the same as Latios' who is being considered for S rank and Latios removes your own hazards. Starmie for A
Yeah Zard should definitely drop, for me it has too many negative points to be an S Rank mon, in it's opportunity cost, dependence for hazard removal, limited splashability and need to set up. This would all be kinda forgivable if it was utterly unstoppable after one DD but it still needs things like Slowbro / Hippo / Defensive Lando-T weakened to an appropriate degree, as well as stuff like Scarf Keld and sand removed first. This should defo drop to A+
Why is Latios to S being brought up again, the points that henry in particular made in the last discussion still hold true, nothing has changed to make it better, and while it is a fkin threat that is a big part of the reason why Steel types are so useful in the teambuilder, it's not meta defining in the sense an S Rank pkmn should be.
Torn to S I'm not rly gonna discuss because the same does a 70% STAB mean it's S argument will circulate again with much repeated arguments and flawed logic. Ranking team should just decide this one and stick with it.
Keld to S is something I'm very much behind, it's been so good for a long time now an Keld+Pursuit+Spikes is a ridiculously easy combination to use that has p good matchups vs most playstyles. It has a really nice blend of both offensive and defensive characteristics that make it one of the most defining mons in the tier so yeah this is definitely warranting a slot in S Rank.
Lando I'm not sure should be S, I disagree with ppl saying it's a great sand check due to a combination of how it tends to get beaten long term by Exca especially if it's not full fat def(or Exca could be balloon)+the prep sand should be making for it however it really does glue together offensive teams and you never know quite what set you'll be up against. My other concern is the lack of longevity it has at times and how some of the mons you'd really like it to be able to check have ways around it, Lop and Mgross being good examples with their Ice Punch.
To be frank, Shedinja really sucks in OU. Sure, it has Wonder Guard, but that just isn't enough of a niche for it to do anything useful in the tier. It pretty much requires a whole team built around it to even switch in. It cannot even stop Pokemon such as Kyurem-B or Mega Gyarados due to their access to Mold Breaker. It's also very vulnerable to super-effective coverage from anything, which means that a lot of Pokemon outclass it in being a pivot. It is also susceptible to random status moves, as it has 1 HP, and if entry hazards are up, it can't even switch in. Combine all this, and Shedinja is just trash in the OU tier.
To truly understand why Shedinja is a good pokemon you have to change your outlook on competitive pokemon. Time is very important in life, we have all heard the term "time is money" well the same thing applies with the pokey mon.
Take a look at a GOOD shedinja set (aka not one with focus sash) shed needs one thing
1. hazard control (easy as fug)
now, this isnt to say shed is really good, in fact its kind of shitty. But with the right set and back up it can carve a niche spot.
However, i know my intellectual outlook on pokemon is hard to garner if you are not of my caliber, so i will display it to you.
In OST i'll bring shedinja
To truly understand why Shedinja is a good pokemon you have to change your outlook on competitive pokemon. Time is very important in life, we have all heard the term "time is money" well the same thing applies with the pokey mon.
Take a look at a GOOD shedinja set (aka not one with focus sash) shed needs one thing
1. hazard control (easy as fug)
now, this isnt to say shed is really good, in fact its kind of shitty. But with the right set and back up it can carve a niche spot.
However, i know my intellectual outlook on pokemon is hard to garner if you are not of my caliber, so i will display it to you.
In OST i'll bring shedinja
no reason to be such a douchebag to the guy, i dont agree with what he said but you could have at least explained why he was wrong
shed is d because with proper team support it's a hard stop to some dangerous pokemon such has non hp fire manaphy, lop, medicham, non toxic slowbro, suicune, latias, non hp fire latios, and more.
Welcome to Smogon.
tbqh I think zard x has gotten worse these past few months.
Lando-t usage has hit an all time-high, and more scarf tar on balance usually means more excadrill as well. Frankly, it's just getting tougher and tougher to sweep with zard-x these days with azu, exca under sand, heatran, lando-t, tyranitar, and mega diancie on offense to check and slowbro, hippo, and quaggy on balance and stall as strong checks, it has its work cut out for it.
A quick glance at OLT usage stats shows Lando-t at #1, Tyranitar at #4, hippowdon at #6, exca at #8, heatran at #11, and azu at #14 (and zard, combined x and y usage, at #18). Its checks are common and good, and are going to keep seeing more use in the foreseeable future.
DD is still amazingly strong, we can't deny that, and most of these checks will lose little prior damage after a boost, but it's still being checked; what I'm referring to is only ideal scenario. Offense has plenty of ways to keep up the pressure to prevent set up and keep its checks healthy.
Of course, increased lando-t and azu usage is actually kind of good for bulky wisp char-x, meaning that it will do its job more often (burning relevant shit), but the decreased effectiveness of the DD set is good enough reason for it to drop to A+
It's still the best dragon dancer in the tier, meta trends are just against dragon dancers in general rn.
msab I've never thought of as S rank but meh. Clef is S rank for sure tho.
Latios stays A+ for sure, also mentioned my reasoning before:
Latios A+ --> S nah
While it's quite meta-defining, it's way too easy to check by any playstyle, it does have hard counters (like sdef rachi), and pursuit from not just ttar, but also stuff like av meta and weavile can just take latios out of the game. It's a consistent and good mon, and it gets an incredible amount of usage for these reasons (#5 on OLT usage stats). It's also just really bad at defogging. Depending on its coverage, it loses to ferro/skarm or tran, and it loses to tar, rachi, clef, celebi, klefki, and chansey in terms of hazards. It's far too easy to check and shutdown, and its forced to drop defog or roost to not be total fodder to every steel type, but it's good enough to stay where it is because of its power, bulk, typing, etc.
Also, specs latios is definitely not bad, 2hko'ing clefable with psyshock is literally all the information you need to justify using it lol.
That and nothing has rly changed for it to suddenly make it better.
Torn-t stays A+ because hurricane is ass; most of the community definitely has its disagreements on this one but the discussion was deemed over
Keld stays A+ simply because its way too easy to check. Mvenu, amoong, slowbro, slowking, celebi, lati twins, av torn-t, azu, mega alt, starmie etc there are an enormous amount of keldeo checks that can be fit onto any playstyle. Sure, keldeo breaks through some of them with disgusting ease with scald burns or pursuit trapping, but you will simply never see a team without a keld check. Maybe some teams out there are unprepared for cm raikou, or mmeta, or mzam, but every single fucking goddam team will have some way to deal with keldeo; that+its very predictable means it shouldn't be A+
Yes i realize that its bulk, stabs, speed, etc is all great but that much carries it to A+. S is a whole other issue.
Mega Sab to A+
Imo this should have never been S rank; its bulk is overrated and its forced to recover very often thanks to this+super low speed. It's also very prone to Sub from the likes of SubSD lando-t, SUb mhera, Sub mgyara, and others. It's frightening how well it can shut down spikestacking teams and stallbreakers alike, and its truly a blessing for stall, but it lost its partner in crime and its still blown away by strong special attackers or fairies like manaphy, mgarde, mdiancie, clef, specs keld (before knock off), and much more. Hell even heatran can will-o msab to bounce it back and boost its own fire moves to 2hko from there lol. It's a very cool mon, but its also very easy to pressure and prepare for.
Lando-t to S
I think it should've gone to S a long time back, but that nom was killed long ago as well. Well now that people realize how fantastic it is, it should be rising. Double dance is a fearsome set that can set up on opposing lando-t, defensive serves as an excellent pivot checking tons of relevant offense breakers, scarf is one of the best scarfers out there, Offensive SR with SD+eplate can toss balance squads like ragdolls, and even more niche sets like SubSD+salac or RP+3 attacks are amazing in their own ways. This thing can do it all, and while the checks to all of these sets are relatively similar (slowbro,skarm,kyu-b, mana, glisc, azu, weavile), they can all be overwhelmed or worked around. Its been borderline S for a while now, it might as well move up considering its burst in popularity.
Thundurus to A
Lol this thing is ferocious, i can't imagine why people would ever want to drop this beast. Quite simply put, this thing has almost no switch-ins. Knock+super beats chansey, hp flying or psychic hits amoong/venu, gknot destroys hippo+quag+gastro+seismitoad, hp ice smacks garchomp+lando-t+gliscor, Superpower drops ttar, heatran, ferro, knock off can ohko latios after rocks; the only immediate hard counter i can think of is mega ampharos, and even then it has to stay healthy with no recovery outside of restalk. On top of all its unmatched versatility, it has prio t-wave, which can save offense's ass against some of the most dangerous threats to offense like mlop, mzam, char-x, malt, mgyara, etc etc. And lets not forget nasty plot tearing a hole open in every balance out there. The ability to tailor this beast to whatever your team needs while keeping any kind of opposing playstyle on its toes is honestly amazing.
One of the greatest parts about it is that just by having thundurus alive, any kind of set up sweeper that can be stopped by t-wave (anything bar exca, DD lando-t, and priority) is highly discouraged. Sure its rocks weak but Thundurus can carry its weight on almost any offense you can fit it in. Keep the monster A+
I'd actually want some reasoning for why mlati should rise to A- AM . I get that boltbeam/roost/t-wave is disgusting and all that but I want some clearer reasons :]
If people are using a bulky team there is absolutely no downside to using this mon. Even without Goth (which btw, should have stayed) it just fucks shit up on the daily. Only one weakness forces teams to use a limited amount of mons, and easily teambuilders can slap checks and counters around their sabel.
Sabel just dunks medicham and all other attackers for that matter, however its untouchability comes when it is paired with a wish user. Like, wow why do people not just spam this shit more. Here is an easy strat for using sabel
1. Get a phwatt special wall
2. burn physica attackers on switch in
3. stealth rock for talonflame
4. free win if you're not retarded when switching
Mega Sabel is a beast on earth, im sad it wasnt banned.
Now Mew, there isnt even a discussion here. it is so versatile its not even funny, if you cannot realize why it should stay in its current tier, you do not know how to play pokemon.
You said that Mew wasn't even a discussion because it is so versatile but just because it can do just about everything does not mean that it is best at everything. Smogon acknowledges it in Mew's gen 6 analysis "Despite Mew's incredibly huge movepool, it only has a few viable sets that aren't outclassed by other Pokemon in the tier." Its only true viable sets are defog (B+ rank atm) and stalbreaker (A-). Now I was on the fence about it moving down hence why I said it COULD drop but when actually using it, I found that its best set is not as good as it was when stall was more common. Since the ban, I have seen basically all offense which is not what STALLBREAKER mew is best suited for. I feel Mew could drop to B+ for this reason (and the fact that the stallbreaker set really doesn't outclass the defog set and thus should be on the same level, B+).
Also, I would like to point out to you and other posters that your arguments for a mon staying at its current placement, moving up a sub rank, or moving down a sub rank should not reflect what the mon does in general, but instead how its viable sets are benefited by or hurt by current metagame trends. Decisions the community makes as whether or not they ban something is irrelevant to discussion as well.
On topic
Torn-t
A+ -> S (Maybe)
I have not used this too much so I cannot attest too much to its effectiveness, however; from what I have gathered from using it, I can see it moving to S. The AV set is great at pivoting around against special attackers that offensive teams would struggle switching into otherwise and can act as a glue for said teams while severely crippling opposition with knock off and gaining momentum with u-turn. While AV is a good glue for offense, LO is great to threaten offense as well. Still, hurricane is kinda weak in the grand scheme of things, as well as being super unreliable. I guess I could see this going to S but I think A+ is a more suitable rank (Still, I have not used it that extensively so what I am saying could be complete shit).
Mega Charizard-X
S -> A+ (disagree)
With Lando-T becoming super prominent again (I believe that is back at #1 for usage), Zard-X only gets hurt. Still, if Jolly Xard sets up a DD when scarf Lando comes in, it has a solid chance to kill after rocks at neutral attack 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-319 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Will-O-Wisp Xard cripples all variants of Lando, Hippo, and Azu, and Zard is not weak to any priority so it is just as hard to revenge kill. I just don't think the meta has adapted enough to warrant Zard dropping as it still has very effective ways to cripple its checks.
Mega Sableye
S -> A+ (Agree)
This thing is still a staple on stall and is great at threatening most hazard users bar things like clefable. Still, this things bulk was overrated in the first place and now it is hurt further now that goth is gone. While it still is one of the best support mons in the tier, the goth ban shifted the metagame in a way that only hurts Mega Sableye. It really should drop.
Keldeo
A+ -> S (Agree)
Dark spam is everywhere which is amazing for the pony for two reasons. Darks threaten the latis which give it problems and keldeo itself naturally threatens the dark types. I can easily see this in S.
Latios
A+ -> S (Disagree)
As I mentioned with Keldeo, Dark is super common and I don't think that there is reason enough for it to rise. While it is still amazing at what it does, I cannot see it in S ATM. A+ is fine.
Lando-T
A+ -> S (Agree)
This is one of the most consistent mons in the tier and while not that much has changed, I think the ability to pivot on physical attackers and threaten offensive teams with its scarf set is worthy of S. Plus, many landos are running SD and that is very good right now.
Mega Latias
B+ -> A-
Sure, move it up. Bolt beam+t-wave is good enough for me.
no reason to be such a douchebag to the guy, i dont agree with what he said but you could have at least explained why he was wrong
shed is d because with proper team support it's a hard stop to some dangerous pokemon such has non hp fire manaphy, lop, medicham, non toxic slowbro, suicune, latias, non hp fire latios, and more.
The thing is, you bring up a good point, HOWEVER, it just requires too much team support to be effective. Shedinja can also be taken down by random coverage-moves such as HP Fire, elemental punches, and is just very susceptible to Pursuit trapping, as well as untimely secondary effects such as a Scald burn.
As Shedinja is immune to Scald, the only secondary that really worries it is a Fire Blast burn, and Sheddy shouldn't be in on a Fire move if it can help it.
Anyway, Sheddy should stay ranked. It does require a lot to be out of play to utilize it effectively: no rocks, no (Toxic) Spikes, no sand, no hail, no random HP Fire meant for Ferrothorn, no Knock Off, no Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, no other Dark/Fire/Flying/Ghost/Rock coverage. But, the basic Wonder Trio core--Sheddy plus Dugtrio to remove Pursuit trappers (who with the exception of Scizor tend to be Ground- or Fighting-weak) and Mega Sableye to control the hazard game--has proven incredibly effective, topping the ladder several times, with Shedinja itself providing a crucial switchin to things such as Lopunny and non-HP Fire Manaphy. And while the example of a single (variant of) team may be relatively weak evidence, especially given what is said concerning the quality of the ladder, let's remember we have a single team, ABR's notorious Gothstall team, that played a large part in getting Shadow Tag banned.
"Too much team support required" has been the argument against Shedinja. And the Wonder Trio core is a specific stall variant in an offense-oriented metagame, which still requires a degree of skill to effectively utilize (for starters, not impulsively sending Sheddy into everything). Nevertheless, the fact that the tools exist to enable Shedinja not only to function, but to actually effectively utilize Wonder Guard and contribute to teams, make it worthy of remaining ranked.
i've been lurking through this viability ranking thread to the point where i feel this is a relatively safe proposal; multiple people (am as well as m00ns) have mentioned that the following 'mon should definitely rise, but i'd like to make a justification on this.
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nominating mega latias to A-
i was just casually scrolling through the vr's looking for something to build with, and recognized mega latias in B+ for some reason alongside relatively uncommon or ineffective 'mons such as celebi, dragonite, feraligatr, togekiss, etc. i'll cut right to the chase with this, there has been a lot of solid examples of mega latias as of late, especially in tour play. in olt, thisteam as well as variations of it were spammed due to the fact that it was proven to be consistent, with mega latias playing an imperative role both offensively and defensively. just looking at its stats alone, it is secure to say that it is incredible overall; unlike many defensive glues, it is not forced to run a tremendous amount of bulk to be considered a blanket check to a large portion of the tier. with it's most effective set definitely being calm mind / thunder wave + boltbeam coverage in the current metagame, it is not passive in any way which is sort of mandatory in oras ou's current state. with calm mind, it functions as a bulky win condition that can use a large majority of the tier as fodder, while common checks like tyranitar, bisharp, ferro, klefki, etc. are pressured through thunderbolt damage as well as hazards (will go more in-depth on this later). there's honestly not much to say about thunder wave, it easily cripples opposing bulky set-up win conditions which makes them easier to handle, threatening offensive set-up sweepers, wallbreakers that can potentially cause issues, and making it much easier to pull of your own win condition with the opposition being crippled. also, for those wondering, thunderbolt + ice beam is specifically commonly chosen because it allows mega latias to put 'mons like spdef skarmory, spdef talonflame, all variants of gliscor, tg manaphy, sd lando-t / chomper (ground types in general), as well as steel types which are staples on a lot of playstyles on the backfoot, meaning you have momentum. as mega latias is typically found on more balanced builds, i precisely mentioning sd lando-t, tg manaphy, and sd gliscor due to the fact that all of these apply pressure to that exact archetype; having something that can immediately switch-in and force the opponent to switch out, potentially racking up hazard damage is just fantastic. now, going more on the topic of what teams mega latias functions well on and general usage of it. mega latias performs well on hazard stacking builds with backbones such as rocks tran + spikes ferro to avoid passivity as well as wear down the already mentioned common switch-ins to it. scarf / chople tyranitar will also frequently be seen on these builds to deter hazard removal options like lati@s and starmie, enabling you to either get a free kill or keep hazards on the field and continue to pressure the opponent. furthermore, with its tremendous bulk, mega latias is capable of blanket checking half the metagame; it provides a countermeasure | check | counter to the following: life orb thundurus and offensive electrics in general, mega zam / lo zam, mega lopunny, mega charizard-y, specs keldeo, breloom, gliscor, manaphy, tornadus-t, and so on.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Mega Latias: 117-138 (32.2 - 38%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Mega Latias: 161-192 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Mega Latias: 144-172 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (prevents manaphy from efficiently setting up)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Mega Latias: 124-148 (34.1 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
mega latias is definitely an A- rank 'mon, but i can potentially see it rising to A as the metagame evolves, especially with ost coming up.
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as for my opinion on some of the current discussion topics:
• tornadus-t a+ -> s: there's been a lot of discussion on this previously and many points brought up, but i 100% agree with it rising. tornadus-t is a really splashable 'mon on pretty much every playstyle / archetype excluding stall, effectively utilizing either assault vest or life orb variants. this 'mon has a great speed tier as well as good bulk overall, making it a fantastic choice on balance that struggles with stallbreakers / wallbreakers such as cm latios, life orb alakazam, lo gengar, tg manaphy, hoopa-u, serperior, etc. to put it quickly, tornadus-t effectively generates momentum which is key in oras, cripples the opponent consistently throughout the game with knock off, meaning stuff like rotom-w and clefable have far less longevity, immediately pressure teams with a powerful (albeit inaccurate) inaccurate hurricane, preventing recovery | status | set-up | hazards through taunt, which may make the opponent's goal of way of winning simply not possible, while life orb + taunt or life orb + 4 attacks provides an overall solid match-up against all playstyles, and making assault vest a reliable check to a multitude of threats, especially with regenerator. not much to say that hasn't already been mentioned, tornadus-t is definitely s rank material.
• landorus-t a+ -> s: this is a 'mon that has been outshining the bulky grounds of the tier as of late for good reasons. there are many effective landorus-t sets that can be ran, but i'll only be talking about a few of them- double dance, scarf, defensive, and offensive rocks. for one, with many physical threats like talonflame, mega lopunny, excadrill, zardx, and offensive sd mega scizor running around, defensive leftovers / rocky helmet landorus-t provides reliable counterplay if you don't let it get overwhelmed or weakened easily. also, defensive forces switches from most of these threats, allowing you to get the upperhand through u-turn or 'free' rocks. double dance is a really good cleaner in the current metagame, through its natural bulk + intimidate, its capable of finding a plethora of set-up opportunities (especially on more passive 'mons and forcing scarfers to lock themselves into a certain move), while immediately having a solid match-up against offense and more defensive playstyles; not to mention, its common checks are easily lured or put in range. scarf is also fairly splashable on offense to act as a pseudo-check to the mentioned threats (all of them threaten common offensive builds), momentum generator to provide free switch-ins to breakers or sweepers, a revenge killer for fast 'mons like mega alakazam, or a late-game cleaner once the opponent's checks have been removed or worn down- not much else to say about that. as for offensive rocks, it can either run sd + rocks to break down passive mons' like hippowdon by itself while still checking the mentioned threats, or rocks + 3 attacks (typically w/ earth plate) to fire off consistent strong attacks or gain momentum, it can also effectively run smack down + eq as a lure to stuff like skarmory and rotom-w. definitely agree with it rising to s.
• keldeo a+ -> s: agree with this. keldeo is a 'mon in the metagame that is easily splashed on balance or more offensive playstyles as a wallbreaker (specs) or revenge killer / speed control (scarf), as well as few team dependent sets like resttalk or taunt for multiple reasons. dark types like weavile and bisharp, along with mega scizor are prominent offensive threats, and keldeo is capable of checking them reliably. starting with specs keldeo, this is one of the tier's best wallbreakers with people slapping on bulky grounds / steels on every build due to metagame standards and auto-losing to certain threats is simply unacceptable. its most common checks on offense being electric types, flying types, and lati@s or starmie are ALL susceptible to pursuit support from tyranitar, meaning keldeo applies even more pressure knowing the opponent has a high chance of doubling, giving you momentum. not to mention, scald can be spammed early on to fish for burns. scarf keld is a really solid revenge killer due to it's nice spatk stat as well as solid speed tier, being capable of revenging stuff like +1 dd zard-x and everything below or near that speed tier. since offensive checks easily get worn down, its fantastic in the late-game as well. move it to s.
• latios a+ -> s: latios is a 'mon that i had to think about a bit and read more throughout the vr to make a final judgement on it, but i don't think it should rise. there's the argument of it 'restricting teambuilding,' but while this is true in a way, it is also incorrect. just like in previous gens, there are threatening offensive typings that simply have to be checked, oras ou standards make it that multiple fairy / dragon checks are required, hence the abundance of tornadus-t, bulky steels that are staples even on offense (seeing stuff like scarf jirachi rise), as well as prominent fairies, mainly referring to clefable. its a 'mon thats typically splashed on more offensive based teams as a keldeo / electric check (offensive glue), while having utility in defog, or something along the lines of cm if it is not mandatory. even with the many checks latios does have, it can also be 'easily' dealt with through offensive pressure from the likes of tornadus-t, weavile, bisharp, alakazam, mega diancie, variants of excadrill, mega lopunny, common scarfers, mega metagross, etc. latios is definitely a prominent threat in the metagame, but in my eyes, does not particularly stand out for s material.
• thundurus moving down: not exactly sure who brought up this proposal, but i heavily disagree. thundurus is one of the faces and dominant forces of offense / hyper offense in the current metagame for a ton of reasons. i'll be going through most of its best sets to me personally, starting at t-wave + 3 attacks- this 'mon is recognized to be extremely threatening to opposing offense due to its limited switch-ins, especially if hazards can be kept up on the field, and prankster thunder wave functioning as a sweeper check in case your revenge killer isn't capable of doing its job, or simply slowing down an offensive threat like mega lopunny. it's most common coverage would be thunderbolt | hp ice | focus blast, which really troubles bulkier builds (especially considering hippo's usage is getting lower), meaning thundurus is mainly dealt through offensive pressure and wearing it down, which isn't always consistent / reliable. not to mention, thundurus has a wide movepool, being capable of using coverage moves like knock off, grass knot, psychic, or hp flying which may pave a sweep for one of your members. secondly, personally being one of my favourite sets to use, nasty plot + twave | 2 attacks functions similarly to the previously mentioned set, but nasty plot enables you to break early game or sweep late-game when checks to it get put in range, while still being capable of crippling stuff easily. a great point m00ns brought up in her post above is that people aren't efficiently preparing for it, and the fact that its checks on paper easily get put in range of an attack, or simply crippled through thunder wave. keep it a+ lol.
• charizard-x s -> a+: after reading through multiple posts, i have recognized that there are a lot of different opinions on this proposal, but i personally mixed feelings. starting with the negatives, when building around it or utilizing it on any playstyle, whether that is dd on offense or wisp on balance, it forces two things in most cases, hazard removal as well as a way of pressuring common rockers. not only does this restrict the team quite a bit as well as making it relatively obvious for the opponent to guess your sets and play around it accordingly. also, with the offensively inclined meta, charizard-x struggles to efficiently clean with revenge killers like sand rush excadrill, scarf keldeo, scarftran (defensive variants work well too), t-wave thundurus, azumarill, etc., running around. as for the positive side of things, i personally find wisp zard-x to be fantastic, it spreads status relatively well as it lures in common ground types like hippowdon and landorus-t that would otherwise check it, offensive threats like banded azumarill, while also blanket checking a good portion of the metagame if you manage to keep rocks off the field.
• i'm abstaining from making a decision on mega sableye as both sides bring up good points, but i'd lean towards it staying s.
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Yeah Zard should definitely drop, for me it has too many negative points to be an S Rank mon, in it's opportunity cost, dependence for hazard removal, limited splashability and need to set up. This would all be kinda forgivable if it was utterly unstoppable after one DD but it still needs things like Slowbro / Hippo / Defensive Lando-T weakened to an appropriate degree, as well as stuff like Scarf Keld and sand removed first. This should defo drop to A+
Why is Latios to S being brought up again, the points that henry in particular made in the last discussion still hold true, nothing has changed to make it better, and while it is a fkin threat that is a big part of the reason why Steel types are so useful in the teambuilder, it's not meta defining in the sense an S Rank pkmn should be.
Torn to S I'm not rly gonna discuss because the same does a 70% STAB mean it's S argument will circulate again with much repeated arguments and flawed logic. Ranking team should just decide this one and stick with it.
Keld to S is something I'm very much behind, it's been so good for a long time now an Keld+Pursuit+Spikes is a ridiculously easy combination to use that has p good matchups vs most playstyles. It has a really nice blend of both offensive and defensive characteristics that make it one of the most defining mons in the tier so yeah this is definitely warranting a slot in S Rank.
Lando I'm not sure should be S, I disagree with ppl saying it's a great sand check due to a combination of how it tends to get beaten long term by Exca especially if it's not full fat def(or Exca could be balloon)+the prep sand should be making for it however it really does glue together offensive teams and you never know quite what set you'll be up against. My other concern is the lack of longevity it has at times and how some of the mons you'd really like it to be able to check have ways around it, Lop and Mgross being good examples with their Ice Punch.
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I understand that scarf lando-t cannot swap in but in a 1v1 situation lando-t wins if ur running super power. I dont understand why so many people forget about this the only way Lopunny can win if its running fakeout and gets at least close to max damage on ice punch but the odds aren't in its favour lets just say.
However mega Metagross can beat it at -1
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 332-392 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO but metagross can't really swap in on him due to earthquake fear.
Virtually all Pokemon (although most notably cleaners/sweepers) need their checks and counters eliminated. I don't really know what point you are trying to get across by saying that it needs them removed...
Honestly, Shedinja is ranked due to just how infamous Wonder Trio squads have become since their introduction to the ladder. Shedinja is what makes them so infamous, because its ability to singlehandedly decide the entire matchup of a match on team preview (be it in Shed's favor or against it) is a huge asset for a Pokemon to have - especially given the generally defensive (and, as such, heavily matchup-inclined) teams that it is used on. I think that what will decide whether Shedinja should stay ranked is not due to the pokemon itself, but rather whether Shedinja squads are capable of adapting to fit with the metagame. Personally, I think that they have the capacity to and that it is only a matter of time until someone is able to create an effective wonder trio squad which is able to stand up to the heavily offensive metagame, assuming that noone has already. Besides this, I think its ability to take on non-HP Fire (/Shadow Ball I guess...) is pretty insane utility for defensive teams on its own, while its ability to combat other stall/balance breakers and semistall wincons like non-Flamethrower Clefable, CM+Roost Latios, CM Raikou, CM+BoltBeam Blissey, CM+BoltBeam/CM+STAB+utility Mega Latias etc. while also providing a way to actually gain momentum (or at the very least halt your opponent's momentum) v.s. VoltTurners with its sweet AF immunity (which, when combined with the shift from AV/Specs to CM on Raikou - meaning less Shadow Balls to deal with) is incredibly valuable utility for a defensively-oriented team to have before considering the effect that it has on team preview matchup. Its BP+Will-O+Sneak+X-Scissor set is honestly really good at doing what it does (creating/nullifying momentum, creating repeated 50:50s v.s. mons, acting as a way to absorb team weaknesses+scalds etc.) when it has the right support behind it.
Yeah Zard should definitely drop, for me it has too many negative points to be an S Rank mon, in it's opportunity cost, dependence for hazard removal, limited splashability and need to set up. This would all be kinda forgivable if it was utterly unstoppable after one DD but it still needs things like Slowbro / Hippo / Defensive Lando-T weakened to an appropriate degree, as well as stuff like Scarf Keld and sand removed first. This should defo drop to A+
Just saying, you, as well as a shitton of others have completely that zardx was not only brought into S rank because of the merrit of its dd set, but also the defensive utility of the wisp set, being able to lure in and cripple many of its counters/checks in ttar, sand exca, lando, hippo, azu, quag, etc. The fact that it can lure in so many mons and basically make them useless for the rest of the match is such a huge merit since it paves a way for teammates to do their jobs more effectively, and it can allow zardx to deal with the opposing team pretty well, since it still hits hard as all hell at +0, especially for a defensive mon. Additionally, It can also run a pseudo double dance set with SD tail wind so that it can choose whether it wants to shit on defensive teams or offensive ones. Yet another option on zardx is running outrage so that it can 2hko quag, and so that it can avoid the recoil vs hippo that puts it in KO range of eq.(and don't even get me started on belly drum flame charge lol) All in all, the crazy versatility of zardx should be more than enough to keep it in S rank imo. TLDR: Keep
I don't deny the wisp set is decent but it's not what makes it S Rank(if I'm mistaken pull me up on it). Wisp also has a lot of the flaws I mentioned in my post and you conveniently skated over in yours. Opportunity cost plus it's absolute dependence on hazard removal are flaws that will be on every char set whatever you run. I don't really count SD tailwind or or shit belly drum stuff because let's be honest when was that used on a consistent build. I'm pretty willing to bet out of the zard x we see used in SPL, 70% are DD, 30% are Wisp and nothing else. Also when has wisp ever lured a fucking exca lol, if exca is my best means of checking Zard at that point I'm never going directly to it to Zard unless I'm in such a bad spot I have to pray my opp choke on balls. All of the stuff you bring up sounds very nice in theory but you're only considering the benefits without the flaws, for example with Outrage yeah it's cute that it 2hkoes quag but over the long run which is more consistent between Claw and Outrage? Versatility only really counts if people actually run these options, but they don't because they're not consistent enough to warrant use over the other sets.
I support Landorus-T for S Rank
because it is perhaps the best Pokemon of the moment, it is very versatile, it is a very good pivot, a couple of months ago there was talk of a possible s rank for Garchomp, comparing them lando are very similar, (also of weaknesses xD) both play exceptionally their roles in a team.
lando enjoys the possibility of having Sd and rock polish, allow him to devastate entire team, in a goal-oriented offensive there is no better a nice DD lando to apply the team to win, I would speak even of the possibility of using smack down, hell, beats rotom-w and skarm easily through it.
Also the set is very good defensively, check threats as zard x, mega Scizor (using SD), Excadrill, ttar even MG clef
then please let Lando put in S rank, he deserves it :D
I don't deny the wisp set is decent but it's not what makes it S Rank(if I'm mistaken pull me up on it). Wisp also has a lot of the flaws I mentioned in my post and you conveniently skated over in yours. Opportunity cost plus it's absolute dependence on hazard removal are flaws that will be on every char set whatever you run. I don't really count SD tailwind or or shit belly drum stuff because let's be honest when was that used on a consistent build. I'm pretty willing to bet out of the zard x we see used in SPL, 70% are DD, 30% are Wisp and nothing else. Also when has wisp ever lured a fucking exca lol, if exca is my best means of checking Zard at that point I'm never going directly to it to Zard unless I'm in such a bad spot I have to pray my opp choke on balls. All of the stuff you bring up sounds very nice in theory but you're only considering the benefits without the flaws, for example with Outrage yeah it's cute that it 2hkoes quag but over the long run which is more consistent between Claw and Outrage? Versatility only really counts if people actually run these options, but they don't because they're not consistent enough to warrant use over the other sets.
DD is obviously the best set, but the ability of wisp to compliment it with the defensive utility on stall teams. Opportunity cost is a valid excuse for every single mega, so it really shouldn't be used as an argument for something dropping from S rank, and relying on hazard removal isn't too big a flaw since hazard control is pretty much a must on most OU teams anyways bar like mega diancie HO squads anyways. I glossed over those 2 problems because they weren't too big a deal. Also, yeah exca isn't a reliable zardx switch in, but it still lures hippo, lando, etc. and cripples with wisp pretty easily. Double Dance actually has some really good merit, similarly to double dance lando, because you can decide which move to use based on what type of team you are facing, sd for slower teams, tw for frailer offense. Outrage may not be more consistent than dragon claw, and that's why it isn't the main moveslot on the analysis lol, but charizard's ability to invalidate its main answer on stall with a single moveslot is really good and shows how versatile it is. Granted it does suffer some flaws like being worn down quickly by misc damage and prevalence of some checks, but that's what keeps it in S rank instead of "ascending" to S+.
Personally i think zard-x should drop because of the rise of landot. This thing is just such a massive threat to zard-x in the current meta and is on almost every team. If you look at recent tour play Scarf landot has become really common again and its one of the better offensive checks to zard-x. Not to mention rocky landot as well. Wisp sets pretty good in that regard however because it cripples landot which is zard-x's most common switch in currently.
Personally i think zard-x should drop because of the rise of landot. This thing is just such a massive threat to zard-x in the current meta and is on almost every team. If you look at recent tour play Scarf landot has become really common again and its one of the better offensive checks to zard-x. Not to mention rocky landot as well. Wisp sets pretty good in that regard however because it cripples landot which is zard-x's most common switch in currently.
Just saying, zardx outspeeds scarf landot at +1 and threatens to OHKO after rocks, so it's not really a good offensive check to zardx, however defensive lando is kinda annoying, so teammates that lure that in and weaken it like ice beam ttar are really appreciated. Not only that, but SD TW sets can sd vs a mon that it threatens on the switch in, and they can do a ton of damage to even defensive landot.
Zardx calcs if u didn't believe me btw:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-319 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (pretty sure it runs max/max anyways)
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 327-385 (85.6 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Swords Dance Tailwind is a terrible set in all honesty. SD 2 atks roost is better but even so is a pretty niche option. Basing arguments on the ability of Zard X to SD is like saying that Mega Latias wasn't a counter to Landorus-I because it learns Outrage (granted this is an extreme example). That argument doesn't matter because nobody uses it. DD and Wisp are the only sets really worth considering in terms of why it may or may not be S rank
Scarf Lando-T hasn't been considered a good ZardX switchin in a long time btw, its only a check prior to DD
Swords Dance Tailwind is a terrible set in all honesty. SD 2 atks roost is better but even so is a pretty niche option. Basing arguments on the ability of Zard X to SD is like saying that Mega Latias wasn't a counter to Landorus-I because it learns Outrage (granted this is an extreme example). That argument doesn't matter because nobody uses it. DD and Wisp are the only sets really worth considering.
Scarf Lando-T hasn't been considered a good ZardX check in a long time btw
Ok, makes sense, but the only reason why I brought up scarf landot is because Blazelatias brought it up as a check lol, and zardx being able to lure in and cripple offense's main way of dealing with it is really cool, especially since it paves the way for teammates that dont rly like lando to put in work as well.
