Disregard everything I said, Shedinja apparently has a niche.
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This is a falsehood to a great degree.Shedinja to Unranked
To be frank, Shedinja really sucks in OU. Sure, it has Wonder Guard, but that just isn't enough of a niche for it to do anything useful in the tier. It pretty much requires a whole team built around it to even switch in. It cannot even stop Pokemon such as Kyurem-B or Mega Gyarados due to their access to Mold Breaker. It's also very vulnerable to super-effective coverage from anything, which means that a lot of Pokemon outclass it in being a pivot. It is also susceptible to random status moves, as it has 1 HP, and if entry hazards are up, it can't even switch in. Combine all this, and Shedinja is just trash in the OU tier.
no reason to be such a douchebag to the guy, i dont agree with what he said but you could have at least explained why he was wrongThis is a falsehood to a great degree.
To truly understand why Shedinja is a good pokemon you have to change your outlook on competitive pokemon. Time is very important in life, we have all heard the term "time is money" well the same thing applies with the pokey mon.
Take a look at a GOOD shedinja set (aka not one with focus sash) shed needs one thing
1. hazard control (easy as fug)
now, this isnt to say shed is really good, in fact its kind of shitty. But with the right set and back up it can carve a niche spot.
However, i know my intellectual outlook on pokemon is hard to garner if you are not of my caliber, so i will display it to you.
In OST i'll bring shedinja
Latios stays A+ for sure, also mentioned my reasoning before:Welcome to Smogon.
tbqh I think zard x has gotten worse these past few months.
Lando-t usage has hit an all time-high, and more scarf tar on balance usually means more excadrill as well. Frankly, it's just getting tougher and tougher to sweep with zard-x these days with azu, exca under sand, heatran, lando-t, tyranitar, and mega diancie on offense to check and slowbro, hippo, and quaggy on balance and stall as strong checks, it has its work cut out for it.
A quick glance at OLT usage stats shows Lando-t at #1, Tyranitar at #4, hippowdon at #6, exca at #8, heatran at #11, and azu at #14 (and zard, combined x and y usage, at #18). Its checks are common and good, and are going to keep seeing more use in the foreseeable future.
DD is still amazingly strong, we can't deny that, and most of these checks will lose little prior damage after a boost, but it's still being checked; what I'm referring to is only ideal scenario. Offense has plenty of ways to keep up the pressure to prevent set up and keep its checks healthy.
Of course, increased lando-t and azu usage is actually kind of good for bulky wisp char-x, meaning that it will do its job more often (burning relevant shit), but the decreased effectiveness of the DD set is good enough reason for it to drop to A+
It's still the best dragon dancer in the tier, meta trends are just against dragon dancers in general rn.
msab I've never thought of as S rank but meh. Clef is S rank for sure tho.
That and nothing has rly changed for it to suddenly make it better.Latios A+ --> S nah
While it's quite meta-defining, it's way too easy to check by any playstyle, it does have hard counters (like sdef rachi), and pursuit from not just ttar, but also stuff like av meta and weavile can just take latios out of the game. It's a consistent and good mon, and it gets an incredible amount of usage for these reasons (#5 on OLT usage stats). It's also just really bad at defogging. Depending on its coverage, it loses to ferro/skarm or tran, and it loses to tar, rachi, clef, celebi, klefki, and chansey in terms of hazards. It's far too easy to check and shutdown, and its forced to drop defog or roost to not be total fodder to every steel type, but it's good enough to stay where it is because of its power, bulk, typing, etc.
Also, specs latios is definitely not bad, 2hko'ing clefable with psyshock is literally all the information you need to justify using it lol.
You said that Mew wasn't even a discussion because it is so versatile but just because it can do just about everything does not mean that it is best at everything. Smogon acknowledges it in Mew's gen 6 analysis "Despite Mew's incredibly huge movepool, it only has a few viable sets that aren't outclassed by other Pokemon in the tier." Its only true viable sets are defog (B+ rank atm) and stalbreaker (A-). Now I was on the fence about it moving down hence why I said it COULD drop but when actually using it, I found that its best set is not as good as it was when stall was more common. Since the ban, I have seen basically all offense which is not what STALLBREAKER mew is best suited for. I feel Mew could drop to B+ for this reason (and the fact that the stallbreaker set really doesn't outclass the defog set and thus should be on the same level, B+).Mega Sabel should stay in S.
If people are using a bulky team there is absolutely no downside to using this mon. Even without Goth (which btw, should have stayed) it just fucks shit up on the daily. Only one weakness forces teams to use a limited amount of mons, and easily teambuilders can slap checks and counters around their sabel.
Sabel just dunks medicham and all other attackers for that matter, however its untouchability comes when it is paired with a wish user. Like, wow why do people not just spam this shit more. Here is an easy strat for using sabel
1. Get a phwatt special wall
2. burn physica attackers on switch in
3. stealth rock for talonflame
4. free win if you're not retarded when switching
Mega Sabel is a beast on earth, im sad it wasnt banned.
Now Mew, there isnt even a discussion here. it is so versatile its not even funny, if you cannot realize why it should stay in its current tier, you do not know how to play pokemon.
The thing is, you bring up a good point, HOWEVER, it just requires too much team support to be effective. Shedinja can also be taken down by random coverage-moves such as HP Fire, elemental punches, and is just very susceptible to Pursuit trapping, as well as untimely secondary effects such as a Scald burn.no reason to be such a douchebag to the guy, i dont agree with what he said but you could have at least explained why he was wrong
shed is d because with proper team support it's a hard stop to some dangerous pokemon such has non hp fire manaphy, lop, medicham, non toxic slowbro, suicune, latias, non hp fire latios, and more.
As Shedinja is immune to Scald, the only secondary that really worries it is a Fire Blast burn, and Sheddy shouldn't be in on a Fire move if it can help it.as well as untimely secondary effects such as a Scald burn.
Yeah Zard should definitely drop, for me it has too many negative points to be an S Rank mon, in it's opportunity cost, dependence for hazard removal, limited splashability and need to set up. This would all be kinda forgivable if it was utterly unstoppable after one DD but it still needs things like Slowbro / Hippo / Defensive Lando-T weakened to an appropriate degree, as well as stuff like Scarf Keld and sand removed first. This should defo drop to A+
Why is Latios to S being brought up again, the points that henry in particular made in the last discussion still hold true, nothing has changed to make it better, and while it is a fkin threat that is a big part of the reason why Steel types are so useful in the teambuilder, it's not meta defining in the sense an S Rank pkmn should be.
Torn to S I'm not rly gonna discuss because the same does a 70% STAB mean it's S argument will circulate again with much repeated arguments and flawed logic. Ranking team should just decide this one and stick with it.
Keld to S is something I'm very much behind, it's been so good for a long time now an Keld+Pursuit+Spikes is a ridiculously easy combination to use that has p good matchups vs most playstyles. It has a really nice blend of both offensive and defensive characteristics that make it one of the most defining mons in the tier so yeah this is definitely warranting a slot in S Rank.
Lando I'm not sure should be S, I disagree with ppl saying it's a great sand check due to a combination of how it tends to get beaten long term by Exca especially if it's not full fat def(or Exca could be balloon)+the prep sand should be making for it however it really does glue together offensive teams and you never know quite what set you'll be up against. My other concern is the lack of longevity it has at times and how some of the mons you'd really like it to be able to check have ways around it, Lop and Mgross being good examples with their Ice Punch.
Just saying, you, as well as a shitton of others have completely that zardx was not only brought into S rank because of the merrit of its dd set, but also the defensive utility of the wisp set, being able to lure in and cripple many of its counters/checks in ttar, sand exca, lando, hippo, azu, quag, etc. The fact that it can lure in so many mons and basically make them useless for the rest of the match is such a huge merit since it paves a way for teammates to do their jobs more effectively, and it can allow zardx to deal with the opposing team pretty well, since it still hits hard as all hell at +0, especially for a defensive mon. Additionally, It can also run a pseudo double dance set with SD tail wind so that it can choose whether it wants to shit on defensive teams or offensive ones. Yet another option on zardx is running outrage so that it can 2hko quag, and so that it can avoid the recoil vs hippo that puts it in KO range of eq.(and don't even get me started on belly drum flame charge lol) All in all, the crazy versatility of zardx should be more than enough to keep it in S rank imo.Yeah Zard should definitely drop, for me it has too many negative points to be an S Rank mon, in it's opportunity cost, dependence for hazard removal, limited splashability and need to set up. This would all be kinda forgivable if it was utterly unstoppable after one DD but it still needs things like Slowbro / Hippo / Defensive Lando-T weakened to an appropriate degree, as well as stuff like Scarf Keld and sand removed first. This should defo drop to A+
DD is obviously the best set, but the ability of wisp to compliment it with the defensive utility on stall teams. Opportunity cost is a valid excuse for every single mega, so it really shouldn't be used as an argument for something dropping from S rank, and relying on hazard removal isn't too big a flaw since hazard control is pretty much a must on most OU teams anyways bar like mega diancie HO squads anyways. I glossed over those 2 problems because they weren't too big a deal. Also, yeah exca isn't a reliable zardx switch in, but it still lures hippo, lando, etc. and cripples with wisp pretty easily. Double Dance actually has some really good merit, similarly to double dance lando, because you can decide which move to use based on what type of team you are facing, sd for slower teams, tw for frailer offense. Outrage may not be more consistent than dragon claw, and that's why it isn't the main moveslot on the analysis lol, but charizard's ability to invalidate its main answer on stall with a single moveslot is really good and shows how versatile it is. Granted it does suffer some flaws like being worn down quickly by misc damage and prevalence of some checks, but that's what keeps it in S rank instead of "ascending" to S+.I don't deny the wisp set is decent but it's not what makes it S Rank(if I'm mistaken pull me up on it). Wisp also has a lot of the flaws I mentioned in my post and you conveniently skated over in yours. Opportunity cost plus it's absolute dependence on hazard removal are flaws that will be on every char set whatever you run. I don't really count SD tailwind or or shit belly drum stuff because let's be honest when was that used on a consistent build. I'm pretty willing to bet out of the zard x we see used in SPL, 70% are DD, 30% are Wisp and nothing else. Also when has wisp ever lured a fucking exca lol, if exca is my best means of checking Zard at that point I'm never going directly to it to Zard unless I'm in such a bad spot I have to pray my opp choke on balls. All of the stuff you bring up sounds very nice in theory but you're only considering the benefits without the flaws, for example with Outrage yeah it's cute that it 2hkoes quag but over the long run which is more consistent between Claw and Outrage? Versatility only really counts if people actually run these options, but they don't because they're not consistent enough to warrant use over the other sets.
Just saying, zardx outspeeds scarf landot at +1 and threatens to OHKO after rocks, so it's not really a good offensive check to zardx, however defensive lando is kinda annoying, so teammates that lure that in and weaken it like ice beam ttar are really appreciated. Not only that, but SD TW sets can sd vs a mon that it threatens on the switch in, and they can do a ton of damage to even defensive landot.Personally i think zard-x should drop because of the rise of landot. This thing is just such a massive threat to zard-x in the current meta and is on almost every team. If you look at recent tour play Scarf landot has become really common again and its one of the better offensive checks to zard-x. Not to mention rocky landot as well. Wisp sets pretty good in that regard however because it cripples landot which is zard-x's most common switch in currently.
Ok, makes sense, but the only reason why I brought up scarf landot is because Blazelatias brought it up as a check lol, and zardx being able to lure in and cripple offense's main way of dealing with it is really cool, especially since it paves the way for teammates that dont rly like lando to put in work as well.Swords Dance Tailwind is a terrible set in all honesty. SD 2 atks roost is better but even so is a pretty niche option. Basing arguments on the ability of Zard X to SD is like saying that Mega Latias wasn't a counter to Landorus-I because it learns Outrage (granted this is an extreme example). That argument doesn't matter because nobody uses it. DD and Wisp are the only sets really worth considering.
Scarf Lando-T hasn't been considered a good ZardX check in a long time btw