Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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I'll touch on a few of these drops/raises from the front page

Hippowdon A+ -> A: Meh
On one hand, this thing is outright beat one-on-one or cannot switch into several prominent attacking threats.

M-Meta
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 312-368 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 212-250 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(EQ only does 61.7 - 73.7% back)
Manaphy- no calc needed
M-Zard X- 2HKO's SpDef variants without boosts, needs +1 to 2HKO others. Hippo wins one on one, but can't switch in.
Clefable- Can switch in and set up, but will have to use Wish often, as EQ does ~30%

On the other hand... can't argue with 108/118/72(adequate if invested fully and sand is up) bulk and still can wall most Scarfers, Lando-T, ,etc. On top of that it gets slack off, rocks, decent offense, and sand (which I should be praising more). So consensus is meh.

Serperior A- -> A: Yes

Things that consistently wall it/switch in: Amoongus, Venusaur, Skarm
Things that inconsistently wall it: Pink Blobs, Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Heatran, M-Aggron,
Things that usually kill it: M-Altaria, Talonflame, Powerful Scarfers/Megas
Things that die: Pretty much everything else

Latias A -> A-: No

Still not enough hazard removers and clerics that are as fast and bulky, while not offensively useless out there. The reason I could still see a drop is because of this speedy, powerful, fairy prevelant meta, but ultimately it does its job well enough.
 
Durant Unranked -> C-/C

Can fill a large amount of roles that Scizor can and cannot.



First of all it outspeeds Hoopa-U making it a more effective at Revenge killing it than Scizor (Variants that run fire moves cannot be revenge killed by Scizor 252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 343-406 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO but with durant it naturally outspeeds and can defeat Hoopa-U as long as it is not a Scarf Variant.
Outspeeds Celebi, protecting it from variants running Hidden Power Fire, Scizor can do the same but it is way less effective because it sacrifices a large portion of it's HP. Durant also can run Stone Edge or Thunder Wave making it able to defeat pokemon like Charizard, Volcanora, Non-Scarf Victini or Heatran because of it's higher speed or/and new coverage compared to scizor. Durant is also more splashable against Mega-Pinsir as it doesn't have to take a huge hit from Return and deals a OHKO with it's rock moves.

Capabilities as a wall breaker (Calcs)
(If it needs Jolly to Outspeed Jolly Variants it will be listed if it OHKO's W/o Adamant and will be in italics)
Underlined calcs mean it didn't need the band
Zard X cant setup on durant

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 390-462 (98.9 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 756-890 (117.7 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 540-636 (167.1 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*Scizor Has To Take A Hit
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 285-336 (105.1 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 149-177 (57.9 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) Only does not need band via Superpower
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 384-452 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 714-840 (257.7 - 303.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 860-1014 (202.8 - 239.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*Scizor Has To Take A Hit
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 1056-1244 (355.5 - 418.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO*Scizor cannot OHKO and has to take a hit
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 396-466 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Scizor cannot OHKO and has to take a hit

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 1228-1448 (373.2 - 440.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Scizor Has To Take A Hit and Cannot OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 740-872 (273 - 321.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO * More Splashable, Scizor has to take a hit, so does Durant but Scizor cannot OHKO and has to take a hit from return rather than quick attack
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 430-508 (126 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Scizor has to take a hit and has difficulty KO'ing
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 471-556 (119.5 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 386-456 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 416-491 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Durant is an extremely powerful cleaner that teams often do not know how to handle. Durant may not be a great choice as it lacks special defense however it can often perform roles similar to Scizor, however due to it's higher speed and lower bulk more on the offensive side.

Some Replays


- These show off the way it works.

It can beat other pokemon not listed including Altaria if correct predicts
 
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Here's the thing with Durant: The thing's power output is phenomenal, it can take some physical hits alongside its excellent typing, and it's speedy. Three issues that I see:
  1. Base 109 speed. Trolly, trolly tier. Considering how much lies in that crucial 110 tier, you do not want to be crept, and you'll probably have to run Jolly, especially considering how many special hitters are in that 110 tier and its absolute shit SpDef (as in, normal Sharpedo is technically bulkier).
  2. Having Scizor's typing means you have to deal with Scizor's extreme weakness to Fire, and there's a lot of Fire moves being slung around at this point.
  3. The opposing [Whatever] avoided the attack! Running a Band, as you've opted to do, means you can't run Hone Claws and rectify that accuracy issue, which leaves the potential for your sweep to be gutted by whiffing a Superpower or some such. A tad embarrassing, if you ask me. (Don't forget Life Orb Hone Claws is a thing!)
Further, while I hate to be that guy, let's take a look at your replays:
  • First guy forfeits after not too long, but Durant did get a lead kill and weaken a Ferrothorn.
  • Second guy has Volbeat, Espeon, Porygon-Z, Aqua Tail Serperior, and Poison Jab Garchomp (Iron Tail being the Fairy lure of choice, by the way) and uses that move on Klefki--with three Steels on your team, no less. Durant does at least clean up when not much else could have. Not to mention the stupid team almost won by Volbeat passing Serp +6 and a Sub.
  • Third guy only allows one kill before Durant breaks itself on Tankchomp.
  • Fourth guy had no hazard removal, allowing you to keep three layers of Spikes. Durant puts in some work, at least.
  • Fifth guy...damn, that Gliscor. Durant picks up two, but this isn't exactly the strongest team it's facing.
  • Sixth guy...okay, why am I seeing Espeon everywhere? Oh, and nice triple-flinch with Excadrill there. Durant does put in a ton of work, but it's ultimately in a losing effort.
  • Seventh guy forfeits after Durant nabs two kills.
  • Last guy let his Heatran get Encored into a Fire move on a Flash Fire MegaZam (how do you not switch out after that?).
  • Also, I'm sure somebody's going to invoke the low-ladder argument--your final replay puts this account at only 1200, meaning you've started from the very bottom of the ladder, and even certified n00bs such as myself know what lies at the bottom of the ladder.
I'm personally not opposed to Durant being ranked, and I think we can appreciate the work you put in just to present this argument, but I would daresay there's no way this convinces anybody Durant is more viable than Jellicent, Haxorus, or Meloetta, and it'll likely be an uphill battle to get it ranked period.

So that's my two cents.
 
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Lol....

The replay card is more or less a moderator / ranking team thing please chill out about mini-modding with that I'm positive the mods can handle it and not to sound like...eh no, to sound like a dick, most people aren't really entitled to be throwing that out there everytime these come up. I saw one comment stating "we've finished discussing this we're gonna discuss other stuff now" or something similar, that falls under the same boat of "the moderators got this leave it alone". Im gonna use the comment above as a reference point seeing how this isn't a new thing. I get that people like to critique replays to establish the validity of them in terms of ranking unranked stuff (my lord or whatever higher being there, it's D rank stuff most people barely use stuff below B- anyways who cares) but it's, again, normally better to just ignore it entirely focus on a better discussion point, and let the ranking team make that decision.

Was busy cringing on some of these deleted posts so figured I'd state my two cents on that considering it's a recurring theme that I know from experience :/

I'm fine with M-Aggron moving up like Albacore stated in page 7 but C+ is a big push for something you're arguing about capabilities more so than relevancy. It's not relevant in the slightest a bunch of the C+ stuff like Entei exert more presence than M-Aggron ever would from a team-building / threat control perspective.
 
I don't think Mega Metagross with Grass Knot is good for the argument against Hippowdon. It's a lure at best and most of the time, you'll wish you were running something else like Bullet Punch. Now Thundurus with Grass Knot is semi-viable in that it stops rain.
 
I don't think Mega Metagross with Grass Knot is good for the argument against Hippowdon. It's a lure at best and most of the time, you'll wish you were running something else like Bullet Punch. Now Thundurus with Grass Knot is semi-viable in that it stops rain.
Actually, Megagross with GK can lure in and 2HKO a ton of its normal "counters" due to the boost that it gets from tough claws and OHKOs certain rain sweepers that can seriously threaten Megagross's team while still having three physical moves to attack opponents from its stronger attacking stat and generally being a super hard hitting wallbreaker. Here are some calcs further proving my point:
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 360-424 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 264-312 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 316-372 (121 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
... with many others
 
Metagross's best draw is the fact that it does well against offensive teams with its massive bulk. Grass Knot doesn't help against them offensive teams unless they're rain teams. Not to mention you're lowering own of your defenses so you don't lose power on Grass Knot, which could back to bite you. While it seems like a good idea on paper, the slot is better dedicated to someone like Bullet Punch or Ice Punch.

So yes, Hippowdon is usually good to stay in against Metagross. It should probably still drop though because it's just as versatile as Tyranitar.
 
Here's the thing with Durant: The thing's power output is phenomenal, it can take some physical hits alongside its excellent typing, and it's speedy. Three issues that I see:
  1. Base 109 speed. Trolly, trolly tier. Considering how much lies in that crucial 110 tier, you do not want to be crept, and you'll probably have to run Jolly, especially considering how many special hitters are in that 110 tier and its absolute shit SpDef (as in, normal Sharpedo is technically bulkier).
  2. Having Scizor's typing means you have to deal with Scizor's extreme weakness to Fire, and there's a lot of Fire moves being slung around at this point.
  3. The opposing [Whatever] avoided the attack! Running a Band, as you've opted to do, means you can't run Hone Claws and rectify that accuracy issue, which leaves the potential for your sweep to be gutted by whiffing a Superpower or some such. A tad embarrassing, if you ask me. (Don't forget Life Orb Hone Claws is a thing!)
Further, while I hate to be that guy, let's take a look at your replays:
  • First guy forfeits after not too long, but Durant did get a lead kill and weaken a Ferrothorn.
  • Second guy has Volbeat, Espeon, Porygon-Z, Aqua Tail Serperior, and Poison Jab Garchomp (Iron Tail being the Fairy lure of choice, by the way) and uses that move on Klefki--with three Steels on your team, no less. Durant does at least clean up when not much else could have. Not to mention the stupid team almost won by Volbeat passing Serp +6 and a Sub.
  • Third guy only allows one kill before Durant breaks itself on Tankchomp.
  • Fourth guy had no hazard removal, allowing you to keep three layers of Spikes. Durant puts in some work, at least.
  • Fifth guy...damn, that Gliscor. Durant picks up two, but this isn't exactly the strongest team it's facing.
  • Sixth guy...okay, why am I seeing Espeon everywhere? Oh, and nice triple-flinch with Excadrill there. Durant does put in a ton of work, but it's ultimately in a losing effort.
  • Seventh guy forfeits after Durant nabs two kills.
  • Last guy let his Heatran get Encored into a Fire move on a Flash Fire MegaZam (how do you not switch out after that?).
  • Also, I'm sure somebody's going to invoke the low-ladder argument--your final replay puts this account at only 1200, meaning you've started from the very bottom of the ladder, and even certified n00bs such as myself know what lies at the bottom of the ladder.
I'm personally not opposed to Durant being ranked, and I think we can appreciate the work you put in just to present this argument, but I would daresay there's no way this convinces anybody Durant is more viable than Jellicent, Haxorus, or Meloetta, and it'll likely be an uphill battle to get it ranked period.

So that's my two cents.
I can absolutely understand your concerns. I noticed the same thing about it's abysmal special defense. The disregard to Hone Claws is helpful against threats like Clefable, Charizard, Celebi or Ferrothorn that only take heavy enough damage by one of four of Durant's moves. Hone claws is just another set Durant is capable of using.
Also i'd be absolutely fine with Durant being D ranked too.
 
On the contrary, I believe M-Gross' biggest draw is how well it fares against Balanced teams, due to its sheer power (Life Orb Landorus-Therian power) allowing it to break through defensive Pokemon with relatively little chip damage, its important Speed tier allowing it to outspeed most Balance Pokemon and some offensive threats, and decent bulk allowing it to go head-to-head with faster offensive Pokemon and come out on top. Its bulk is good, but lack of recovery of any kind, even Leftovers, means it's relegated to allowing it to switch in on resisted moves and 1v1ing faster Pokemon. I say 1v1ing since the bulk frankly isn't good enough to get away with that more than once or twice. Against balanced teams, that's usually all it needs, while it gets easily overwhelmed against Offense. Grass Knot is a prefectly viable option if you find your team needs a lure for one the the Pokemon it beats, or if you find the other coverage options are more redundant.
 

DennisEG

Civil Engineer
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Manaphy S -> A+

Not fast enough to sweep most teams, and balance commonly runs Ferrothorn. Definitely suffers from 4MSS, and it has a problem tailglowing vs offense. Attacking Manaphy on the Tail Glow + revenge with priority is always enough to kill, or revenge with Thundurus-I. Safe bet it doesn't have HP Fire if its used with a Breloom or Charizard-X making it free Spike fodder for Ferrothorn.

Volcarona A- -> B+

Tried using this on ladder because I wanted to use it in POCL finals, simply required too much support to be A-. Always gives Talonflame a free WoW or SD and has to spin. Cannot break through any good fire-type without a teammates help. While it can 6-0 bad teams, it is not self-sufficient and can't break through common pokemon like Chomp, Heatran, Dragonite, Zard-X, or Talonflame without random Hidden Power. Also if it has this random Hidden Power, Volcarona loses a way to hit Keldeo and recover HP (Giga Drain0.
I am agree with both nomination that Laurel's made, my thought behind that is:<br />
Manaphy: As the post said, latelly people are running more offense build or fast balance ones like Torn-T + Latios for example of a fast balance build where opposing manaphy struggle a lot or just get one kill at least also really struggles against offense not a the point of being dead weight but it need like a Wacan Berry or Salac berry to do something against Offense and still is only able to get one kill or none because every offense run Priority t-wave/fast strong Mega/priority/scarf which as laurel mentioned tail glow on the switch then get weaken by the mon you kill so manaphy is easy to revenge it, so Manaphy is like REALLY good against fat team/ stalls without unaware (people are crazy) so the RD set easily sweeps team like this or even TG 3Attacks is enough to sweep them, but i think the metagame isnt that slow this days so manaphy doesnt shine like it did before.

Volcarona: i think i talk bout this in the last ranking thread but is just required a LOT of support to make this work, First if u see Volc in the opposing side should be a spinner/defogger mandatory, then something to check/lure heatran/talon/Torn-t/MegaZard both form which are the common check to Volc so u cannot set up freely if the opponent had one of those mons so u alredy have 3 spots in your team only to support Volc, which leave u only three spots to check the majority of the metagame which is imposible only with 3 spots free, so in term of building around it is really hard to do it. Laurel said only can break teams unprepared or bad and im really agree with him.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Politoed: A- -> B+
No, Rain is still really effective right now and with all teams running around that have Keldeo as their only water resist, they kinda get owned. Rain is really underprepared for right now and it has its way around threats like Mega Zam, Sand and Zard Y. It's eefinitely more effective now than it was earlier in oras when Venu got a lot of hype and when there were more bulkier teams that could decently switch into rain attackers. I'd rather see Kingdra in A-
Amoonguss B- -> B
This thing is insanely annoying. It consistently manages to pivot into most water types, electrics, grass types, and fairies outside of mega gardevoir and pretty much gets a free spore off and just screws momentum on offense because the only good spore absorbers on offense also get screwed by Amoonguss's poison stab. Even though Torn-T, KyuB, Weavile etc are really good right now, Amoonguss is still a huge pain in the ass.

Dragalge B+ -> B
This thing is pretty bad now and was hyped up a ton. B is a pretty good place considering its one of the most solid tspikers in the tier and hits really hard too. It's piss weak outside of its stabs which aren't exactly hard to wall though and faster Ground types are the most dominant pokemon right now so yeah.

Sylveon B- -> C+
it's an ok mon but C+ is justified. It's almost outclassed as a cleric but is actually more capable of handling Thundy and given the recent trend of teams that are literally 6-0'd by NP Thundy, this thing can find its place on bulkier teams. Specs is still the better set, but it's pretty bad too considering physical bulk and speed issues, it's insanely prediction reliant and it wants more Hidden Powers than just one.

Breloom B+ -> A-
Already brought up this mon in my last post here

ok, now for my own nom:

Rotom-H to C+
This mon is actually such a great offensive check to Electrics, Serperior, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Torn-T, Mega Pinsir and other flying types in general. With a Twave set, Rotom can cripple ZardX, Volcarona, and Latis that try to switch into it. The SR weakness sucks but this thing works on teams w/o hazard removal and it helps you steal more HP with Pain Split which is cool too, but despite that, hazard removal is common in Starmie and Latis (which you should be running with Rotom-H if you wanna cover Keldeo easily). A lot of teams are pretty weak to the combination of Electric/Fire and a lot of people seem to bank on relying on Raikou (because of megaman) or winning the 50/50 between Overheat and Volt Switch but anyway, Raikou isn't even a good check to it either because non AV variants lose up to 60% on switching in with rocks up and if Raikou threatens a setup w/ CM or Substitute, you've got the slower Volt Switch so you can play accordingly around it. This mon is awesome, move it up to C+
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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Done, forgot about that lol.

BTW gonna officially add Mew A -> A- as a discussion point as of now since I sorta forgot to and Albacore reminded me.

As for Manaphy lol no I strongly oppose it dropping. It's matchup against "offense" is exaggerated when you realize the offense people are referring to is only Hyper offense. Manaphy is capable of doing a number on bulky offense. Also Latios is kind of a crap check really it can't even switch in and win if Manaphy carries Ice Beam, while most other offensive checks like Serperior and Raikou also hate Ice Beam or Scald burns.

Volcarona I think is kind of a strange case because it does need a fair amount of team support, being hard stopped by several common pokemon and hindered by hazards. Yet as a setup sweeper its kinda more deadly than Dragonite I find and possibly even regular Gyarados which occupies the same rank. I see it as on the border of B+ and A- but im inclined for it to stay as I see it as a bigger threat than most anything in B+ bar Breloom which will most likely rise.
 
hello guys

I propose to bring mega Pinsir in A+, has a great offensive power, more can increase the attack tremendously with Swords Dance.

Removes easily chomp, slowbro, hippo after a dance, he has access to a priority increased thanks to the skill, with this feature can easily eliminate threats as mega lop, Hoopa, Keldeo, Pinsir in this metagame is working really well, I think I need be in the A or A + rank

some calculations against various walls:

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 379-447 (90.2 - 106.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 438-516 (104.2 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 255-301 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now the power of quick attack against some offensive pokemon:

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 256-303 (85.6 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 141-167 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

good evening :)
I don't support the A+ nomination, and vote for Pinsir to stay in A- for the time being.

Random Pinsir Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-286943298
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-286747537

Although Pinsir is one of the luckiest mons in the game and rewards good prediction and can really capitalize on an opponent's mistake.
I honestly can't tell myself that Pinsir is A+ material even though I would love for him to return to his former glory spot. Although I could fight for an A rank nomination, I truthfully believe that Pinsir is the top of A- but not quite A rank material. The reason I can't nominate Pinsir beyond A- is because the meta is still overrun with fast electric types and rocky helm mons like chomp/skarm/lando. In addition, Torn-T and Weavile are still super-common, and the most annoying things in the world if you're not at +2. Now don't get me wrong, Pinsir is a great mon (and he's totally slept on in the meta), but he's got a lot of enemies right now. And no matter how you slice it, a 2x and 4x weakness to SR adds to the challenge of playing Pinsir while a large portion of the meta can revenge kill him (forcing him out if he's not at +2)

To put it simply, Pinsir is amazing if you know how he works. He seems like an A rank mon to me (because I've used him 99% of the time since the first day of XY and can plan a Pinsir strategy in my sleep) but in reality he's solid A-. And there's nothing wrong with that.

***

Now the true question is why the hell is medical ham medicham in A rank?
 
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I am agree with both nomination that Laurel's made, my thought behind that is:<br />
Manaphy: As the post said, latelly people are running more offense build or fast balance ones like Torn-T + Latios for example of a fast balance build where opposing manaphy struggle a lot or just get one kill at least also really struggles against offense not a the point of being dead weight but it need like a Wacan Berry or Salac berry to do something against Offense and still is only able to get one kill or none because every offense run Priority t-wave/fast strong Mega/priority/scarf which as laurel mentioned tail glow on the switch then get weaken by the mon you kill so manaphy is easy to revenge it, so Manaphy is like REALLY good against fat team/ stalls without unaware (people are crazy) so the RD set easily sweeps team like this or even TG 3Attacks is enough to sweep them, but i think the metagame isnt that slow this days so manaphy doesnt shine like it did before.

Volcarona: i think i talk bout this in the last ranking thread but is just required a LOT of support to make this work, First if u see Volc in the opposing side should be a spinner/defogger mandatory, then something to check/lure heatran/talon/Torn-t/MegaZard both form which are the common check to Volc so u cannot set up freely if the opponent had one of those mons so u alredy have 3 spots in your team only to support Volc, which leave u only three spots to check the majority of the metagame which is imposible only with 3 spots free, so in term of building around it is really hard to do it. Laurel said only can break teams unprepared or bad and im really agree with him.
Manaphy really is a great pokemon in Overused and the optimal Stall breaker and it really is much better than an A ranked pokemon. Manaphy is really a special case to me. I agree It doesn't quite fit what I would call an S rank. It has too much that can revenge it, and because it does not have the speed to sweep offensive teams it often can be forced to switch on Raikou, Manectric or Victini because of the Bolt Strike + Scarf combo. Manaphy really is a pokemon I feel needs to be an S- of sorts
 

AD impish john

Consumed by Darkness...

B- -> B
I was thinking of making a post of Amoonguss rising to B Rank, but now it's a discussion, cool. Amoonguss is a great Pokemon on Stall, Semi-Stall, Balance, and even Bulky Offense, since it can tank hits very well against Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Breloom, and etc; however Amoonguss has very slow Speed making some faster Pokemon use it as setup fodder being an issue if it doesn't run Clear Smog. The most annoying thing about Amoonguss is that it get Spore, which has 100% Accuracy making sure to put opponents to Sleep, this is a huge pain for offensive teams or those that don't have Grass types like Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and opposing Amoonguss; or Taunt, or Heal Bell to resist the Status, as this can help the user use the Sleeping Pokemon as setup fodder. Its Ability, Regenerator is the best Recovery for Amoonguss as every time it switches out it recovers back 30% of its health, this doesn't sound like much, but it actually is a lot. Amoonguss also can be paired with other Regen users like Slowbro,or Tornadus-Therian making an annoying Core helping balance each other while regaining back health. Amoonguss can be used as a lure too if it runs HP Fire which is helpful against Scizor, and Ferrothorn which mainly use it as setup fodder. Besides Spore, Clear Smog is one the best move it gets as it purely removes Stat Boost making it somewhat easier to deal with DD Mega Altaria, Belly Drum Azumarill, Calm Mind Clefable, and Contrary Serperior. In this metagame full of Keldeo, Rotom-Wash, and Clefable, Amoonguss is no doubt one the most underrated Pokemon in the tier.​
 
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Politoed to B- Totally disagree, the support this thing provides for rain teams is way beyond just bringing rain and before I played my rain team I had no idea the extenet to which this was true. Not only is it's bulk pretty great, it can cripples a lot of potential threats with scald, it can lock in setup sweepers/hazard setters/status users with encores allowing free swift swimmer switches, as well as toxic support. Rest gives it a little more longevity in order to keep rain a little longer as well. It does so much to help ensure that rain sweepers get their chance to do their job, making it a pretty safe option to use in tons of situations. I think A- is perfect for it.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Politoed to B- Totally disagree, the support this thing provides for rain teams is way beyond just bringing rain and before I played my rain team I had no idea the extenet to which this was true. Not only is it's bulk pretty great, it can cripples a lot of potential threats with scald, it can lock in setup sweepers/hazard setters/status users with encores allowing free swift swimmer switches, as well as toxic support. Rest gives it a little more longevity in order to keep rain a little longer as well. It does so much to help ensure that rain sweepers get their chance to do their job, making it a pretty safe option to use in tons of situations. I think A- is perfect for it.
Let's face it. Drizzle is all Politoed has and it is what solely makes it viable. Politoed is the only Pokemon in standard competitive play that can bring rain on the field immediately, and this was solely why it was OU in Gen 5. It suffers the same kind of problem as Ninetales, and many other Pokemon that aren't very competitively viable and are only used for it's ability. Politoed's 90/75/100 bulk is not pretty great, but slightly underwhelming at best and it sports a measly Base 90 Special Attack. Yes, it's Specs Hydro Pump in Rain can deal quite a bit of damage but there are too many threats in OU that are capable of living its attack and are capable of dealing damage or even a KO back, like Mega Venusaur, Latias, Hoopa-Unbound, Garchomp, and even Assault Vest Tyranitar, to a much lesser extent. Generally, people with either be using the Support set or they will be using a more offensively-oriented Politoed on their rain teams, taking advantage of the rain to use STAB attacks.

In conclusion, B- is a very fitting rank for Politoed, considering that it's one of those Pokemon that are only used altogether because of it's ability. It's bulk leaves it to being pummeled by heavy physical beatings, and it's Special Attack isn't very good. I'm sorry but in a world of shark dragons, lava monsters, washing machines and Indian Djinni Gods, a cute little toad just can't keep up with the times.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
B- is way too low for something that is the backbone for a threatening playstyle, and it's actually pretty splashable (Politoed + Kingdra + 4 fillers = profit). It's definitely kind of meh on its own in damage output, but it's not supposed to be nuking things (and even then, Rain-boosted Scalds still do decent damage uninvested) when it's a supporter. It provides unique and invaluable support and is B+ at worst (which I don't agree with anyway).
 
Let's face it. Drizzle is all Politoed has and it is what solely makes it viable. Politoed is the only Pokemon in standard competitive play that can bring rain on the field immediately, and this was solely why it was OU in Gen 5. It suffers the same kind of problem as Ninetales, and many other Pokemon that aren't very competitively viable and are only used for it's ability. Politoed's 90/75/100 bulk is not pretty great, but slightly underwhelming at best and it sports a measly Base 90 Special Attack. Yes, it's Specs Hydro Pump in Rain can deal quite a bit of damage but there are too many threats in OU that are capable of living its attack and are capable of dealing damage or even a KO back, like Mega Venusaur, Latias, Hoopa-Unbound, Garchomp, and even Assault Vest Tyranitar, to a much lesser extent. Generally, people with either be using the Support set or they will be using a more offensively-oriented Politoed on their rain teams, taking advantage of the rain to use STAB attacks.

In conclusion, B- is a very fitting rank for Politoed, considering that it's one of those Pokemon that are only used altogether because of it's ability. It's bulk leaves it to being pummeled by heavy physical beatings, and it's Special Attack isn't very good. I'm sorry but in a world of shark dragons, lava monsters, washing machines and Indian Djinni Gods, a cute little toad just can't keep up with the times.
You clearly underestimate the Rain playstyle. Politoed is a must on Rain teams : it defines this playstyle. It is also a good support considering its good movepool (Toxic, Encore, etc...). B- Rank is very harsh for Politoed. If it should remain A-, I don't know. But B- Rank is clearly not a good rank for Politoed.

EDIT: ninja'ed :'(
 

Celticpride

To Elysium
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I really hope the idea of Politoed to B- was started by a typo. That's a huge undersell of the potential that Rain teams possess. The thought that Politoed being "only used for its ability" is also kinda laughable because statement also extends to Sableye and that's sitting in S rank right now. If something's got a really fucking good ability then that should also be represented in the rankings as such.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
B- is way too low for something that is the backbone for a threatening playstyle, and it's actually pretty splashable (Politoed + Kingdra = profit). It's definitely kind of meh on its own in damage output, but it's not supposed to be nuking things (and even then Rain-boosted Scalds still do decent damage uninvested) when it's a supported. It provides invaluable support and shouldn't drop past B+ (which I don't agree with anyway).
Agreed. The reason I said B- because in context with the person I was replying with.
You clearly underestimate the Rain playstyle. Politoed is a must on Rain teams : it defines this playstyle. It is also a good support considering its good movepool (Toxic, Encore, etc...). B- Rank is very harsh for Politoed. If it should remain A-, I don't know. But B- Rank is clearly not a good rank for Politoed.

EDIT: ninja'ed :'(
I never said that Politoed shouldn't be on Rain Teams. Yes, it does define the playstyle.

Sorry, I accidentally posted twice, so I'm combining the posts. Mega Sableye is not just used for it's ability, but it's defensive typing, three immunities, and only one weakness. It also has good bulk and an awesome movepool allowing it to use a utility and a CM set very effectively.
 
Let's face it. Drizzle is all Politoed has and it is what solely makes it viable. Politoed is the only Pokemon in standard competitive play that can bring rain on the field immediately, and this was solely why it was OU in Gen 5. It suffers the same kind of problem as Ninetales, and many other Pokemon that aren't very competitively viable and are only used for it's ability. Politoed's 90/75/100 bulk is not pretty great, but slightly underwhelming at best and it sports a measly Base 90 Special Attack. Yes, it's Specs Hydro Pump in Rain can deal quite a bit of damage but there are too many threats in OU that are capable of living its attack and are capable of dealing damage or even a KO back, like Mega Venusaur, Latias, Hoopa-Unbound, Garchomp, and even Assault Vest Tyranitar, to a much lesser extent. Generally, people with either be using the Support set or they will be using a more offensively-oriented Politoed on their rain teams, taking advantage of the rain to use STAB attacks.

In conclusion, B- is a very fitting rank for Politoed, considering that it's one of those Pokemon that are only used altogether because of it's ability. It's bulk leaves it to being pummeled by heavy physical beatings, and it's Special Attack isn't very good. I'm sorry but in a world of shark dragons, lava monsters, washing machines and Indian Djinni Gods, a cute little toad just can't keep up with the times.
Honestly I'm really sure that you are underselling it's value, and I'm going to be honest up until very recently I was too. I respect your opinion though and understand it, since I used to share it. After playing a rain team for the first time though, I just don't see any reason this thing should be below A rank. I can post up some replays if need be to show it off, just need a bit of time to get available to play showdown lol.
 
While outside of Drizzle Politoed would never see the light of OU, it's far from being garbage. 90/100 is above average for special bulk, and 90/75 when invested with Scald burns and good Water typing isn't bad either. It's certainly serviceable. It's mediocre yet balanced stats coupled with its ability means its flexible enough to not be a one trick pony, as with auto weather it can function offensively or defensively for team purposes and it isn't always safe to guess what it might be packing. Scald and Encore are bad for offense, and Toxic and Perish Song are great for Stall and Baton Pass. It doesn't excel in any of these roles, but it certainly isn't a liability like Ninetails is, but also not on the level of Hippowdon or Tyranitar when it cones to Sand either. But I think B+ is better suited for Politoed than A-. You don't send in Politoed to "handle" something. Your goal is to keep it alive to set Rain as needed, and the fact that it can't have Damp Rock and Leftovers at the same time hampers its longevity. While the support that it provides to its team is undeniable, it's utterly dependent on said team mates in the first place and it doesn't really excel in any role but merely functions. This lack of "consistent autonomous reliability" lets call it, makes me feel it is ill-suited for the A ranks.
 
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I think the big thing with Politoed is that while it provides an enormous amount of support to its teammates, it's much less "give and take" the way most cores tend to be. Politoed is more a springboard for the other mons, because there aren't many situations where, say, Kingdra just has to beat a few things and Politoed can handle the rest.

I guess that makes me more hesitant to put Politoed above other rain mons like Kingdra, whether or not that means putting it in A-. With other cores, even weather like T-Tar + Excadrill, there's more of an even split of work between the two that can be put in. If you took away the core relation, the two mons still have different levels of viability that would distinguish them. With Rain cores, neither Politoed nor Kingdra could function well in OU without the other. As opposed to being two gloves for a boxing match, they're more like two tires on a bike: Rather than punching in and supporting the other to build on what they already do, neither goes anywhere if the other isn't working.

Politoed is simply an odd case where it provides very good support, but is inhibited by the fact that it only supports a few things and only puts in work by having something specific to support. Something like Klefki or Sableye (which are higher ranked yes, but my first support ideas) provides support that almost anything are going to appreciate in the form of defensive synergy (Politoed stacks some Water typing on rain often), Hazard help (Klefki's Spikes or Sableye's Magic Bounce) and reliable and effective status (Klefki's Speed control for Offense and Sableye's Burns for Stall/Balance, compared to Politoed's helpful but less than reliable Scalds, or Toxic on a team that's already playing heavy offense). Kingdra may be more specific in that it requires Politoed on the team for Support, but Politoed is only slightly more varied in that it needs some Rain abuser to support to justify it over another Support, Bulky Water, etc.
 
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