Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[EraiMHFU]

What the heck are you talking about? Did you even read what I said? Politoed is obviously a must on Rain Teams, and it defines it's playstyle. I never said that it isn't in the first place.


I can see what you mean, but Politoed is PU for a reason. It's support can't be that good, otherwise it would be in a higher tier. Picture it like this: if Politoed got a useless ability- say, Illuminate or something- it would be PU, but here it has Drizzle, so it kinda is used for its ability.

Wut?? Poli is PU because Drizzle is banned on the lower tiers, no offense but all here sound like theorymon.(specially because of the way you wrote that post)

About Sylveon, yeah, it's getting really underselled on the previous posts, unlike Special M-Altaria it can hold a Pixie Plate or Specs, sure, its speed is horrible and it's movepool is small, but it's still a good mon to work with, and what it has over Garde is that it doesnt needs the mega slot, and Garde is basically just a speedy version of offensive sylveon with Focus miss.(or taunt but most Gardevoirs I saw ran CM)

Sylveon should stay, its niches are relevant enough to pick it over Clefable or the other fairies.

 

[Pat Labor]

sup

A- --> B+
I really believe this had it coming for a while. People see Mega Aero as this awesome offensive killer, but it often times falls flat on it's face against offensive and more balanced teams alike. Our Metagame trends have been unfavorable for it for a while. It fails against Clefable, Slowbro, Mega Manectric, TankChomp, Metagross, and hella more.

Earthquake, Iron tail, Ice Fang, Crunch.
M-Aero had tools. In fact "standard" set is a lame (FireFang/Aquatail/DualStab). You can chose his counters, lure Garchomp/Landorus-t, RK M-Lopunny, M-Manetric, you can traps tornadus-t and talonflame, etc. Except for fat walls (Sableye, Skarmory, Quagsire, ...) no one is a safe switch in.
He did not deserve A nor B+, A- is fine.

 

[Srn]

I can see what you mean, but Politoed is PU for a reason. It's support can't be that good, otherwise it would be in a higher tier. Picture it like this: if Politoed got a useless ability- say, Illuminate or something- it would be PU, but here it has Drizzle, so it kinda is used for its ability.

I think this was said before, but i'll reiterate:

there's nothing wrong with a mon being used solely for its powerful ability. Think of mega sableye, which is S ranked. Think of every aerilate, pixilate, and refrigerate user, all of them would be pretty garbage without it. Excadrill, gliscor, serperior; there are plenty of other mons that are very reliant on their abilities to be viable, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Besides, you could probably extend that kind of "if this mon didn't have this, it'd be bad, so it should drop" logic to just about anything. What if serp didn't have leaf storm? What if bisharp didn't get sucker punch? What if mega aerodactyl's speed wasn't base 150? Should any of these drop because of how bad they'd be without these things? Hell no

 

[Celticpride]

Any more posts about Politoed with/without Drizzle will be met with deletions. Move on.

 

[Freeroamer]

Is Manaphy really still S Rank? For me the way the metagame is shifting towards offense detracts from me wanting to use Manaphy, as in many cases I would rather utilise the immediate damage output and secondary typing of either Keldeo or Azumarill as my Water on offense, and both perform better against it also. Thanks to their secondary typing both also offer more role compression, in that Keldeo somewhat handles Bish / Weavile better while Azu has that prio plus checks stuff like Zard X better. Granted neither have the ability to break bulkier teams like Manaohy does provided it has the right set, but that's the issue: If you have the right set. No HP Fire? Gl getting past Ferro. No Psychic? Gl breaking Venu. No Energy Ball? Hl getting past waters before they cripple you and end your sweep. Look, I still find Manaphy really good, but I just don't feel it defines the tier at this stage.

 

[EraiMHFU]

I agree with Freeroamer's post, Mana is still a good wallbreaker, but it's offensive stats are just subpar, it is also a huge taunt bait, since it heavily relies on boosting, it is also prone to get trapped by Goth, because it usually cant afford to run shed shell because it needs berries to set up safely, we already know about 4MSS so I wont mention it, and last it is easy to revenge kill, to get things worse its a huge bait to Serperior and then it would just start snowballing after revenge kill it.

 

[AM]

I mean the logic being used by both of those posts barring...

For me the way the metagame is shifting towards offense detracts from me wanting to use Manaphy, as in many cases I would rather utilise the immediate damage output and secondary typing of either Keldeo or Azumarill as my Water on offense

by Freeroamer is so nitpicky those can't even be considered legitimate reasons lol. If anything the quote there is the only relevant thing about a debate on Manaphys placement. Serp KOs Manaphy with Leaf Storm, not exactly detective work here.

Erai14 your post is really just a generic overblown assumption of Manaphy downplaying a teams implementation of it and literally doesn't say a whole lot :/

Edit: General fyi kind of don't care after this post seeing as how this is gonna be another one of those bandwagon debates where everyone assumes they're right like the beautiful Sylveon debate up above lol ._.

 

[Master B8s]

In regards to manaphy, yes the meta game shifting towards offense is a negative for it, but the shift to offense is mostly because of manaphy. Obviously stall/semi stall has other threats to deal with, like hoopa-U and Mega heracross/ gardevior, but without gothitelle (who can be pursuit trapped, and stall teams can be predictable with it considering it's their only means of defense against manaphy), stall pretty much gets 6-0ed unless it's that shedninja cancer. My point is yes the metagame is becoming more offensive, but that is just showing manaphys influence on the metagame. It's quite a paradox when you think about it, but I'm not sure if that's a point for or against manaphy staying S.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

I really don't understand the assumption that manaphy is deadweight against offense. Yeah it kind of blows against hardcore HO, but bulky offense and balance-like offense tend to utilize mons that are slower than base-100 speed which manaphy just smashes through. The majority of teams would have at most 2-3 mons that outspeed, which gives manaphy free reign against half the team (completely hypothetical but whatever). Manaphy's job is to wreck a team's bulky core, not eliminate the offensive threats.

Also to anyone saying that ferro or venu gives manaphy issues, I would like to add that the cm set is a thing and can beat both with scald burns.

 

[Kav]

Manaphy doesnt get destoryed by offense. It just has way more trouble setting up. It still gets to spam scald, and has solid defenses that let it tank pretty much any unboosted neutral hit. Its still more than useful.

Even so i dont really get this notion that a mon would have to cover all archtypes to be in S rank. If it could do that then itd be in ubers. When something destroys 9/10 walls in OU then you can use your other five slots to beat offense. Its not exactly a brain teaser to find switch ins to serperior or raikou.

 

[LMay]

New request.

A+ -------> S (or maybe in the future ?)

Since I am in the top 300 in the ladder I think Mega Altaria is probably the most underrated mon in OU actually , the defensive set is probably the best atm , he has some flaws like the speed (but Hoopa and Manaphy and Sableye don't really have a really good speed , right ?) but he has fantastic typing with so much usefull resists (Scald resists , Knock off resist , Volt switch resist , U-turn resists , Heal bell support , He beat Mega Sableye the S rank , both forms of Charizard in many situations one is in the S rank) , the defensive DD set counters so many threat and can set up on anything that are not Steel / Venu , just see :

252 SpA Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 100-118 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no need to say that Lando is always bulky now)

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 121-144 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 130-154 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 253-298 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 126-149 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (and you can run more defensive investment to take +4 Flare blitz after SR)

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 127-151 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (so it is a Lop' counter)

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 226-268 (64 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


He can even check some creapy mon for him

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 252-299 (71.3 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 244-291 (69.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 283-338 (80.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 144-170 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (you can even run more spedef to survive +3 Ice beam)

With a Mangezone / Lure HP fire and something to deal with Mega Venu and Tran (if you don't have EQ) this thing is a big threat.

He can even lure Scizor / Ferrothorn / Skarmory / Metagross on a offensive set with Fire blast.
He can even run cotton guard to be the real first counter to CharX and sweep offense
He can run a bulky set with Perish song / Roar with Entry hazards support
Agility + 2 attack is a pretty underrated set.
He can run max spedef to counter CharY with HP Rock , Dragon claw or something


I know you will probably disagree with me but it's just a thing that i think in OU they are so many underrated threat like it and Amoongus or Pinsir.
A little replay to explain my idea (i know the opponent doesn't have so much OU 'mon but it's still high ladder) : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-295662413
Some other things I support : Metagross for B- , Gallade Mega to B+ , Sylveon to C.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

If Mega Altaria moves to S so should Hoopa-U, as neither is better than the other imo.

Manaphy probably should drop, it has a lot of trouble against offense teams, since it needs to boost to OHKO stuff and with all the electric-types and hard-hitting stuff it just can't be the menace it used to be.

 

[Finchinator]

Sorta just been lurking for a while, but I think Alt isn't getting any better over time (slightly worse if anything), so I guess I'll voice my opinion.

New request.

A+ -------> S (or maybe in the future ?)

Since I am in the top 300 in the ladder I think Mega Altaria is probably the most underrated mon in OU actually

Hate to break it to ya, but that accomplishment isn't exactly indicative of too much.

the defensive set is probably the best atm , he has some flaws like the speed (but Hoopa and Manaphy and Sableye don't really have a really good speed , right ?) but he has fantastic typing with so much usefull resists (Scald resists , Knock off resist , Volt switch resist , U-turn resists , Heal bell support , He beat Mega Sableye the S rank , both forms of Charizard in many situations one is in the S rank) , the defensive DD set counters so many threat and can set up on anything that are not Steel / Venu , just see :

252 SpA Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 100-118 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no need to say that Lando is always bulky now)

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 121-144 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 130-154 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 253-298 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 126-149 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (and you can run more defensive investment to take +4 Flare blitz after SR)

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 127-151 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (so it is a Lop' counter)

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 226-268 (64 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


He can even check some creapy mon for him

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 252-299 (71.3 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 244-291 (69.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 283-338 (80.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 144-170 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (you can even run more spedef to survive +3 Ice beam)

The speed factor isn't exactly doing it many favors and comparing it to faster things like Manaphy doesn't make much sense to me, either.

Resisting scald and knock off and volt switch and Uturn and a lot of other moves is nice, sure, but you've also got to consider it's wasting a turn to HB/switch out with natural cure if not mega'D/refresh (if it has HB/refresh) each time it gets scald burnt, resisting VoltTurn isn't too big as when those moves are used on your, the opponent gets initiative to something to beat Altaria, etc...I mean Altaria's typing is unique and can be a major upside, but you're over-selling it imo.

ps: posting a bunch of calcs consecutively doesn't really say much, especially given that you're using a fully defensive spread which compromises a lot of offensive potential and allows a lot of things to have some leeway against it, too - saying a bulky mega can wall things that are significant in the metagame is valid to some extent, but there's really not much more to it and it still doesn't provide much of a reason as for why it has improved from when it was dropped to A+ making it worthy of being S rank.

With a Mangezone / Lure HP fire and something to deal with Mega Venu and Tran (if you don't have EQ) this thing is a big threat.

I mean yea that's true, but a LOT of things are big threats if you have direct support, so I don't see how this point improves your case much at all. The AltMag archetype is noteworthy, but really it doesn't sell Altaria as an S rank threat.

He can even lure Scizor / Ferrothorn / Skarmory / Metagross on a offensive set with Fire blast.
He can even run cotton guard to be the real first counter to CharX and sweep offense
He can run a bulky set with Perish song / Roar with Entry hazards support
Agility + 2 attack is a pretty underrated set.
He can run max spedef to counter CharY with HP Rock , Dragon claw or something

That's great and all, but if can only do one of these at a time. You've gotta look at it more practically. If you lay out literally everything something can do and don't look at the downsides, then of course it'll look really good.

TL;DR: Alt is far from S rank rn

 

[bludz]

Just so you guys know Manaphy is not really poised for a drop. Aero was something I myself thought about personally because I'm not a huge fan of it but I think A- is fine, it's better than everything in B+. Altaria's placement is also fine.

BTW this isn't official or whatever and only been briefly discussed by the guys but I think Freeroamer's nomination of Heatran to A (yeah its kinda old, sue me) has been starting to hold weight for me. Just about every team has a ground type and a water type, it doesn't even counter Clefable now that T-Wave is standard and there are better dragon and fairy checks out there these days. I think its offensive sets are better than spdef, and that speaks to its effectiveness overall because Heatran's best attributes are its access to Stealth Rock and its defensive typing (imo) - so while it still has these traits while running offensive sets it's not really maximizing its defensive capabilities which I feel like aren't as good right now as they have been.

 

[p2]

Heatran definitely isn't A

It's still one of the best SR setters in the tier along with being an incredible stallbreaker and blanket check for meta threats. Teams having Ground and Water types in every team isn't exactly a new trend either, it's been a thing since XY so I'm not sure why this is a factor in dropping Heatran. Heatran's main niche in being a bulky piece of shit checking everything has just shifted to Stallbreaking and breaking defensive cores while still retaining the ability to check key threats purely by virtue of typing and ability. It's also got like 5, if not more, viable sets so it's really unpredictable too which means it's not exactly easy to play around when you don't know its set, and if you rely on like Starmie to beat it, you're kinda fucked when it takes a power herb solarbeam, specs dark pulse, or 2 scarfed fire blasts with a little prior damage. It's still got ridiculous usage which means that it is still one of the more dominant mons in OU right now and despite its disadvantages in typing, it's made up for in every other aspect. It's main use has changed, but it's still very effective otherwise, keep it in A+

 

[pika pal]

Is the increased presence of Water and Ground types something that only now is leading Heatran to drop? It's not exactly like those have ever been uncommon Mon/Move types to work into a team of any archetype, and Heatran certainly wouldn't be the only mon affected by that.

Heatran's most effective role has changed, but I don't think that's the result of an overall drop in viability so much as the meta game simply favoring his offensive sets more. 3 of the four S Ranks are pressured by Heatran on all but a few variations of their sets (Clef needs to have Thunder Wave, Zard needs to have Earthquake, and Sableye's just not gonna have a good time against any Heatran), and this thing's still an all around Fat SoB. Look at how many mons have a move slashed or Other Option mentioned on their sets that is mostly for Heatran and perhaps one other mon: Scizor's Superpower (Tran and Ferro), EQ on Altaria (even Special sets), EQ/Surf Latios, EQ Mega Venusaur, HP Ground Serperior, to say nothing of several mons that are just outright screwed to do anything besides maybe Voltturn until Heatran's removed (non-HP Ground Volcarona, Talonflame, Manectric).

While Heatran's offensive sets are becoming better than his defensive sets, I don't think that fully undermines the benefit of his typing. Fire/Steel is fairly decent coverage, and while not dedicated to walling things anymore, an offensive mon still appreciates the ability to switch/stay in against things to throw off a good move, and that typing still makes it immune to 3 common forms of passive damage (Sand, Poison, Burn), which is a boon for its Stallbreaker sets. Maybe the ability to lay rocks becomes a bit less effective in that role, but offensive SR users are still a thing, and the number of mons Heatran can force out or sit in front of give him ample time to set them: in fact, more offensive SR sets then force a bit more prediction, since there's the risk of switching into a Fire Blast/Magma Storm with a check that needs to avoid getting hit hard to win. Meanwhile, Mega Sableye isn't a sure way to keep rocks off the field, since defensive sets can fish for Lava Plume burns, while Stall Breaker can threaten with Magma Storm

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

38.4 * 2 = 76.8% + 12.5% = 89.3% (Mega'd already)

57.2 - 50 + 38.4 +12.5 = 58.1% + 38.4 = 96.5% (Un Mega'd, Recovers with the Prankster turn)

If Sableye switches into Magma Storm, it needs to be extremely health and have already Mega Evolved to avoid the 2HKO after Trapping damage on anything but very low rolls. Very few other Rock Setters (some Clefable sets, maybe some other stuff that's a bit less standard) can properly threaten Sableye consistently to either eliminate it or prevent it from coming in so they can lay SR: Garchomp and Lando-T fear Burns, and even with a Lum Berry the former needs to SD on the switch to guarantee the 2HKO; Ferrothorn is passive and hard stopped; Excadrill needs MB when Sand Rush is probably its best set right now, and even then faces a Burn; Hippowdon can't break it, Tyranitar needs to get lucky and would still compromise coverage

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

I could go on, but my main point is that Offensive or Defensive, Heatran doesn't fear one of the best Hazard Control mons on Stall/Balance right now in any common situation, which is a big deal for a mon commonly seen as a SR setter and/or Stallbreaker. Probably can't do all of that at once effectively, but in each role Heatran is effective and he has 5 equally viable sets, so it's a mon that requires scouting to play around for anything except balls-to-the-walls HO teams, which generally rip apart all but the fattest mons anyway.


But that's mainly concerning Heatran as his own mon. He also fits fairly well onto a number of cores an supporting mons: he eats a lot of Fire and Flying types for Breloom (who smacks Bulky waters and grounds well), stomps on Grass types for Azumarill, Steel Types for things like Altaria or Scizor, and is one of the most consistent Talonflame answers in the Metagame. Granted, I can build good teams without Heatran, but on any team where I do include him, Heatran is as easy to build around as to slot in reactively, and he's almost always a linchpin for any team where I include him. While I could argue his vaibility within the sub-rank fluctuates, Heatran is a mon that always feels most at home in A+ when I think about the Metagame.

Keep Heatran A+

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Thing is Mega Aero has 4MSS. Just the fact you said he doesn't have to run dual STAB severely inhibits what it can even revenge kill. And being able to choose counters even isn't a rarity. Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, all of them choose what can counter them depending upon the moveset. MMeta can run Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, HP Fire, Earthquake, w/e in it's last slot to pick what can dare come in on it. Mega Lop can run PuP to fuck over bulkier teams, and Mega Sciz can run Superpower to hit other Steels.

Pursuit Trapping Torn-T is basically a lost cause since it does 36% max, which is easily remedied by Regenerator. You'd be better off smacking what comes in with Aerial Ace or Stone Edge or some of the coverage moves it has. It's a no brainer that shit like Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Breloom are so much more better than what Mega Aero can accomplish. They might no have that speed Stat but at least they can threaten hella more things than Mega Aero and a lot of the time if you want something that can revenge kill Mega Lop / MMan Mega Alakazam is nearly always a better choice.

Mega Aero really deserves a drop. It's just not on par with other A- threats and more fitting in B+

I thought 4MSS stopped being an argument since Greninja's ban.

Mega Aero if anything should move up. You guys are severely underrating it, it can revenge kill like 70% of the metagame. Sure it doesn't hit that hard, but it doesn't even need to tbh, it's a revenge killer first and foremost. #AeroToA

As for Tran, he should stay A+. The Magma Storm + Solar Beam lure set is what keeps him in this rank imo, since he can destroy Keldeo, Rotom-W and Manaphy on the switch while shutting down shit like goth stall, DDD Mega Alt (which usually doesn't carry EQ) and Clefable. Depending on his 4th slot, he can also beat Talonflame/Zard-Y or Zard-X and opposing Heatran. More defensive sets are still possibilties but tbh they are becoming setup bait with shit like Manaphy and Zard X. So yeah Tran is fine in A+.

 

[Martin]

The difference between Greninja and Aero is that Aero still loses to a lot of what its aiming to beat with the coverage options. The key problem with Aero is that it wins against offense... sometimes. You see, unlike Mega Alakazam who only has maybe one or two variations in its attacking moves (yes im ommitting its utility moves sue me), Aero has about seven or eight different variations. Lets say that it opted to run, say, Ice Fang over Aerial Ace to lure Garchomp. It now just flat out loses to Keldeo and Breloom. This is where the problem with Aero lies: an offense breaker that doesn't always beat offense is counterproductive. When I compare this back to Mega Alakazam, who beats pretty much all elements of offense with Sub/Encore/T-Wave+3 attacks (assuming that the standard psychic+focus blast+shadow ball is run, the only thing on offense that it doesn't at least 2HKO after rocks (assuming no CM boosts or whatever on either side) is bulky Mega Scizor), it is very clear that Aerodactyl is inferior as an offense breaker. It doesn't help that it just dies to Weave's Ice Shard either (although you can't really say that Zam is innocent there either >:D).

However, I personally agree with Bludz that it shouldn't move down. The fact is that it is better than everything in B+ (barring Breloom, but that's probably gonna move up anyway), leaving no warrant for it to move down. However, I do think that it is one of those pokemon which is too good for one rank and not good enough for the other. Its a rank Y pokemon (if between A+ and S is rank X, rank Y makes sense for this illustration) and I think that this needs to be accounted for in the future when we rank, as even a tiny shift either towards or away from it will push it into the territory of either an A- Pokemon or a B+ Pokemon. Just take its ranking with a grain of salt; at the end of the day, the VR is a mostly subjective resource that any competent player should take with one.

 

[Albacore]

Victini B+ -> B This is something the ranking team unanimously agrees on so it's probably going to happen no matter what, but I still wanted to warn you guys before it actually happens b/c it would be kinda shitty of us to just move Pokemon without any prior warning. Victini is really not that great in the current meta and really deserves to drop to B rank.

MixTini is actually a pretty decent wallbreaker and actually has a strong matchup vs standard stall, but it kinda sucks vs offensive teams and suffers from a bunch of obvious flaws like SR weakness, weakness to common types, Pursuit weakness, the speed drop caused by V-Create making it pretty easy to take advantage of, plus it doesn't get to many opportunities to attack vs most teams since it gets worn down so easily, overall it's not really a B+ set on its own, and the other sets really aren't enough to make it B+ material either. Band struggles a lot with all the Tankchomps running around and its main STAB has really common resistances. Wisp+Taunt's lack of recovery and SR weakness prevents it from consistently checking stuff like Gardevoir and YZard, and it's a pretty niche set in general. Sub PuP and Scarf are kinda bad tbh, Sub PuP is Chomp food, and Scarf is just way too easy to wall and doesn't really check any sweepers (loses to XZard, loses to Altaria, loses to Sand Rush Exca), so there's little reason to run it over other scarfers. Its status as a Fairy check is a lot less valid nowadays, Clefable runs TWave, Altaria runs EQ, Diancie is Diancie, it only really checks Garde which still does a lot w/ Hyper Voice. Not a bad Pokemon by any means, but it's just not on par with the rest of B+ rank.


Now for my own nomination: Cobalion C+ -> B- I brought this up a while ago, but now I've used this thing a lot more and I really think it deserves to move up. I've been experimentiong with different sets than the standard STABs/Rocks/Volt Switch, and I've been impressed by how well they've performed. For instance, I've been using a Sub SD set, and while it's kinda weak even after a Swords Dance, it does set up really easily, espeically against bulkier teams which use stuff like Ferrothorn and Sableye which are just food for Cobalion. Given that its checks are pretty prevalent it's not going to sweep most teams, but SD isn't really the point of the set anyway, it's more something it can use to break through bulkier teams if it needs to, and it does help from time to time. (
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292715459 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292715459 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292724877 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292779014 bunch of replays, some of then featuring Cobalion hadling things it's supposed to lose to quite well)

I've also used SubToxic, which I've actually found even better since it's a lot more consistent, it's rarely ever deaweight since it's almost always going to be able to poison something, like here for instance http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292806945, I only have one replay, but trust me, this kind of stuff happens pretty much every battle, though to a lesser extent. Really, the main impression I get from Cobalion is that, outside of Close Combat and Iron Head, it can run whatever combination of moves it wants, be it SR+Volt Switch, SR+Taunt, Sub+Taunt, Sub+SD, Sub+Toxic, Magnet Rise+Toxic, Magnet Rise+Taunt, Magnet Rise+SD, Stone Edge+SD, Stone Edge+Toxic, Volt Switch+Toxic, and so on. While it's always going to struggle against something, it's completely moveset dependant, there's no single thing that can take on every set comfortably, and as a result, it's very easy to screw over switchins, and pave the way for something else to sweep. It's a very flexible Pokemon which can perform different roles depending on what its team requires of it. It's just a solid support Pokemon in general, and it's defenitely on par with the rest of B- rank imo.

 

[Radio_Active]

I feel CM / RD or TG / RD with Rest are its best sets in the current meta. while you might say it gets no setup opportunities, HydRest allows Mana to serve as a pivot while weakening the opposing team more efficiently than TG + 3 Attks. The reason for this is without a boost its coverage moves can be somewhat weak, failing to beat even the frail things in HO. With rain dance, Mana gets access to awesome recovery in HydRest and makes its already spammable scald even more spammable, and with TG or CM it can weaken an Offense tem sufficiently to allow a teammate clean. Mystic Water is actually an option on Mana for powering up Scald, kthough sometimes you would wish for the Leftiez (tags to him for the awesome name). The reason Mana shouldn't drop is that most offense do not have a proper check / counter for Mana, rather they think that their Offensive pressure would deter Mana, Often getting proved wrong. The ability to pick and choose counters depending on the set is awesome, and really underestimated in the meta. Still, if the meta gets to prepared for Mana, and it seems it is, a drop is expected.

 

[Kav]

Aeros problem is that even though it got an amazing mega ability it has to use shit like wing attack to even utilize it.

4mss isnt even bad because it ideally means that the opponent has to scout out your set before trying to fight you. But in aeros case you can usually just take a stone edge to the face and then kill it.


Totally agree with victini and cobalion. Victini is in a sad spot where it has trouble dealing with things people carry for other reasons like charizard. Cobalion is a reaaaally nice glue mon that just lets you slap a bunch of useful shit in one teamslot. The only issue is that its usage is low enough that people dont really consider breaking away from the standards with it, which could change if it were to get more attention.

 

[Temporelucis]

I've played some ladder games with this 'mon lately.

Nidoking C+ ---> B/B+
Nidoking puts a lot of work against stall and balanced, it also can take a hit vs hyper offense and kill something back.
It OHKO's bulky chomp, gliscor and lando-t with ice beam, ferrothorn, skarm, and scizor with fire blast.
It's an electric immunity that gets a free switch-in every time the opponent clicks t-wave and punishes really hard with a sheer force LO move.
Can switch into clef and 1v1 it.
Overall a good wallbreaker which pairs good with m-scizor on this yellow magic metagame.

 

[Ramses]

I've played some ladder games with this 'mon lately.

Nidoking C+ ---> B/B+
Nidoking puts a lot of work against stall and balanced, it also can take a hit vs hyper offense and kill something back.
It OHKO's bulky chomp, gliscor and lando-t with ice beam, ferrothorn, skarm, and scizor with fire blast.
It's an electric immunity that gets a free switch-in every time the opponent clicks t-wave and punishes really hard with a sheer force LO move.
Can switch into clef and 1v1 it.
Overall a good wallbreaker which pairs good with m-scizor on this yellow magic metagame.

Okay that's a pretty big jump to move up two subranks and not get any better than it is. It's not a secret it can get rid of TankChomp and Ferro but that's doesn't give it any real niche to use it over things like Victini, Gengar, Manaphy, MGarde, etc who can do the same thing.

There are several Ground and Electric types that can punish you for using TWave lol. Lando, Garchomp, Mamo, Mega Man. Get my point?

Ngl I agree with you that's it pretty powerful, but imo it faces too much competition from higher ranked stall and balance breakers to warrant a rise.

 

[pika pal]

I've played some ladder games with this 'mon lately.

Nidoking C+ ---> B/B+
Nidoking puts a lot of work against stall and balanced, it also can take a hit vs hyper offense and kill something back.
It OHKO's bulky chomp, gliscor and lando-t with ice beam, ferrothorn, skarm, and scizor with fire blast.
It's an electric immunity that gets a free switch-in every time the opponent clicks t-wave and punishes really hard with a sheer force LO move.
Can switch into clef and 1v1 it.
Overall a good wallbreaker which pairs good with m-scizor on this yellow magic metagame.

I'm a fan of Nidoking myself, but for where it stands, most people are very well aware of what it's typically capable of, so emphasizing those alone isn't going to be enough to warrant a rise with other Wallbreakers as competition.

If you want it to rise (I'd start with B- at most considering 2 sub-ranks is always a huge leap in any direction), focus on what makes those known traits better in the current meta. You had a bit of an idea going by emphasizing the presence of Electric types and touched on Cores by mentioning Scizor. If you really want it to rise, build on those, explain what gives Nidoking a unique advantage over other Electric Checks in the Meta, and what he offers to cores to really help his teammates in ways other mons couldn't accomplish as well.

 

[Temporelucis]

I want to clarify that I don't think nidoking is better than lando, garchomp, excadrill or mamo on their respective roles. It's just a better wallbreaker imo.
Most of the electric immunities can't pass through these 'mons but nidoking can

Usually wallbreakers either get a free switch into the walls they're about to destroy (volt switch/u-turn) or switch directly into them.
What's the panic button for walls? T-wave.
Nidoking is a good wallbreaker because it doesn't get crippled by toxic or t-wave. Doesn't get residual damage from life orb or opposing rocky helmets and it's decently fast.
Outspeeds mega altaria, dragonite, mamoswine, hoopa-u, adamant exca, etc.

It's true the current meta has things like weavile, mega metagross and lati twins to keep it in check but that's why I stated that it pairs well with m-scizor, if lati has hp fire then it looses to opposing latis so that's not a huge problem.
Nidoking is not frail and it can take a hit from HO teams.

Some calcs

(This is naive)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Nidoking: 234-278 (77.2 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Nidoking: 242-285 (79.8 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Nidoking: 254-300 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Nidoking: 277-328 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

It's not the best pokemon around OU but I would argue it deserves to be on the same rank as dragalge, reuniclus or regular scizor.
It also can 1v1 clef. I hate t-wave clef.