I really wouldent say that. While i could agree with gyarados dropping its mega form shouldn't. Having used mega gyarados, feraligatr and gyarados i can personally say that mega gyarados is really not worth a drop. The reason for this is because mega gyara is one of those pokemon that a lot of teams dont prepare for and even then some sets can completely dismantle teams. While stuff like ferrothorn and gang are rather common still mega gyarados is a pretty big threat still simply because it has somthing that gatr does not have: That massive bulk in its mega forme and intimidate in its base forme which really puts mega gyarados in its own spot. Feraligatr i definitely agree with droping because its honestly a really one dimensional pokemon and much less of a challenge to stop compared to mega gyarados. Gatr is just too predictable and lacks that incredible bulk+typings that gyara has pre and after mega evolution. Stuff like keldeo can still lose to mega gyarados if its got earthquake. Gyarados i also could agree with a drop because its much less of a challenge to wall compared to mega gyarados and can be revenged pretty easy by scarf keldeo (mega gyara can play mind games with keldeo pre mega because hp electric does very little damage and if keldeo Secret swords and you dont mega you win). Anyways I feel like if anything mega gyarados is fine where its currently ranked while gyarados/gatr should drop. Although the increase of gastrodon on balance/semi stall does help sub dd mega gyarados quite a bit as gastrodon gets walled by gyarados before mega.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
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I really wouldent say that. While i could agree with gyarados dropping its mega form shouldn't. Having used mega gyarados, feraligatr and gyarados i can personally say that mega gyarados is really not worth a drop. The reason for this is because mega gyara is one of those pokemon that a lot of teams dont prepare for and even then some sets can completely dismantle teams. While stuff like ferrothorn and gang are rather common still mega gyarados is a pretty big threat still simply because it has somthing that gatr does not have: That massive bulk in its mega forme and intimidate in its base forme which really puts mega gyarados in its own spot. Feraligatr i definitely agree with droping because its honestly a really one dimensional pokemon and much less of a challenge to stop compared to mega gyarados. Gatr is just too predictable and lacks that incredible bulk+typings that gyara has pre and after mega evolution. Stuff like keldeo can still lose to mega gyarados if its got earthquake. Gyarados i also could agree with a drop because its much less of a challenge to wall compared to mega gyarados and can be revenged pretty easy by scarf keldeo (mega gyara can play mind games with keldeo pre mega because hp electric does very little damage and if keldeo Secret swords and you dont mega you win). Anyways I feel like if anything mega gyarados is fine where its currently ranked while gyarados/gatr should drop. Although the increase of gastrodon on balance/semi stall does help sub dd mega gyarados quite a bit as gastrodon gets walled by gyarados before mega.
Klefki definitely doesn't have 4MSS. Being unable to do more than four things with one given set isn't 4MSS, its just the mechanics of every mon in the game. Having 4MSS means that it would need more than four moves to do it's job completely, which also implies in any case that there's move-interaction issues... 4MSS is for things with coverage/STAB issues, or things that have to skip out on something valuable like recovery to do their job properly even once etc., - it's not a symptom of support mons that one might try to use to plug too many holes at once. The fact is that Klefki's support capabilities can all more or less function independently of one another, and you can tailor it's choices to your needs... It's the fact that it can do multiple things on one set that makes it so viable which is the exact opposite of 4MSS, and nobody with a well built team needs Klefki to have ALL of TWave, Toxic, Dual Screens, Spikes, Foul Play/some kind of STAB, (metal sound???? Since when? Meh, it got mentioned)...
TL;DR bottom line is that if you've got 5 mons, you've slapped Klefki in, and you're finding that it needs more than four moveslots to plug every hole in the other 5 mons, then it's not Klefki's fault and you're probably not using it totally wrong, but just expecting too many things from it. This doesn't constitute 4MSS, it just means that you're expecting Klefki to do all of the things it can do when it can only do a few at a time. The limitation of having to choose four moves is something every mon has, and it's not the definition of 4MSS.
TL;DR bottom line is that if you've got 5 mons, you've slapped Klefki in, and you're finding that it needs more than four moveslots to plug every hole in the other 5 mons, then it's not Klefki's fault and you're probably not using it totally wrong, but just expecting too many things from it. This doesn't constitute 4MSS, it just means that you're expecting Klefki to do all of the things it can do when it can only do a few at a time. The limitation of having to choose four moves is something every mon has, and it's not the definition of 4MSS.
It sort of does still have 4MSS. Now, what it's capable of with the 4 standard moves is VERY nice, but to deny that it wants the 5th move is laughable. I mean, MegaGross months ago was EXTREMELY capable with the 4 moves it typically carried, it still had 4MSS. Greninja (I speak the Devil's name) was VERY capable with the 4 moves it tended to carry, still had a VERY tiny bit of 4MSS. It has a minor case of 4MSS, not to the extent that maybe something like Hydreigon has it, but it still has it. Spikes and TWave are almost mandatory especially Spikes, what you do from there is sort of up to you. Using Magnet Rise allows you to avoid groundies, but limits you to one attack. Play rough offs Darks but Foul Play can be super heartbreaking in many situations. Fine, why not both Foul Play and Play Rough? Well now things such as Lando force you out making your job much more difficult to perform. If it had a 5th moveslot it'd be pretty damn amazing. There will be a time where you go "Man, if only my Klefki had X", but you can't. It's not 4MSS in the sense that it's useless because of it, but it does want that 5th moveslot to work to the absolute best of its abilities.
Gyarados (Mega): A -> A- Agree
Mega Gyra is quite a one dimensional pokemon: DD and sweep. Even though it can run substitute/bounce/EQ to somewhat neglect its predictability, it's overall bulk and typing gives it a difficult time against a lot of the common threats in OU. It's speed stat leaves it susceptible to being revenge killed by fast electrics or other common scarfers even after one DD, its weakness to rocks and lack of recovery makes hazard control mandatory, its wall-breaking abilities are hindered by his weak Base Power STABs. It's also weak to volt-turn, both moves, and with all the current S-rank pokemon handily checking it, I think it should shift down along with its non-mega version.
Kyurem-Black: A -> A- Disagree
As the only other Ice type OU-mon besides Weavile, Kyurem-B forces so many switches and is such a headache for balanced teams. It hits 18 of the top 20 common OU pokemon (from last month's stats) super effectively. Its bulk makes it very hard to OHKO even after hazard damage, and access to roost gives it longevity against stall teams, which it can damage further with substitute. It's speed tier, while not great, gives it great bluffing presence of a choice Scarf. If it does choose to equip one, it can sweep extremely effectively once fairies are gone and steels have been weakened.
Manectric (Mega): A -> A-
Personally I Agree, but only because I feel that other fast electric types have the virtue of carrying specs/life orb, which makes them hit hard enough on HP Ice to deal with ground types.
Breloom: A- -> A Agree
Breloom provides fantastic support to offensive teams with its stab-technician priority + spore. Much like Bisharp, it forces a lot of 50-50s on switching in. SD and Focus punch provide fantastic wallbreaking abilities with the former threatening to effectively sweep once talonflame/mega-venu are out of the way. It's STAB moves hit deceptively hard, and while it definitely has its counters and checks, but I feel that like all A-tier pokemon, it has a fantastic way of playing around them with spore, and it's really easy for it to sweep if the enemy team isn't well prepared for it.
Starmie: A- -> A Disagree
While Starmie is versatile and is one of the two best rapid spinners in the game, it lacks the raw power or bulk to provide that big of an impact. For the Offensive set, even a moderately well built team would have a way of dealing with water moves, and bolt-beam coverage doesn't really help out that much. Rapid spin becomes a liability for coverage along with life orb recoil, but without LO the power dip is quite obvious. The defensive set is basically just fishing for burns, because half the EVs are usually invested in speed rather than bulk, and while reflect type serves a niche in stopping some of Starmie's so called counters, it gives it very poor offensive presence without Scald STAB, which I feel is just wasting one turn since the opponent can switch out to something else to hit Starmie Super-Effectively.
First time posting, haven't got used to this reasoning stuff yet, would appreciate discussion and love feedback.
Mega Gyra is quite a one dimensional pokemon: DD and sweep. Even though it can run substitute/bounce/EQ to somewhat neglect its predictability, it's overall bulk and typing gives it a difficult time against a lot of the common threats in OU. It's speed stat leaves it susceptible to being revenge killed by fast electrics or other common scarfers even after one DD, its weakness to rocks and lack of recovery makes hazard control mandatory, its wall-breaking abilities are hindered by his weak Base Power STABs. It's also weak to volt-turn, both moves, and with all the current S-rank pokemon handily checking it, I think it should shift down along with its non-mega version.
Kyurem-Black: A -> A- Disagree
As the only other Ice type OU-mon besides Weavile, Kyurem-B forces so many switches and is such a headache for balanced teams. It hits 18 of the top 20 common OU pokemon (from last month's stats) super effectively. Its bulk makes it very hard to OHKO even after hazard damage, and access to roost gives it longevity against stall teams, which it can damage further with substitute. It's speed tier, while not great, gives it great bluffing presence of a choice Scarf. If it does choose to equip one, it can sweep extremely effectively once fairies are gone and steels have been weakened.
Manectric (Mega): A -> A-
Personally I Agree, but only because I feel that other fast electric types have the virtue of carrying specs/life orb, which makes them hit hard enough on HP Ice to deal with ground types.
Breloom: A- -> A Agree
Breloom provides fantastic support to offensive teams with its stab-technician priority + spore. Much like Bisharp, it forces a lot of 50-50s on switching in. SD and Focus punch provide fantastic wallbreaking abilities with the former threatening to effectively sweep once talonflame/mega-venu are out of the way. It's STAB moves hit deceptively hard, and while it definitely has its counters and checks, but I feel that like all A-tier pokemon, it has a fantastic way of playing around them with spore, and it's really easy for it to sweep if the enemy team isn't well prepared for it.
Starmie: A- -> A Disagree
While Starmie is versatile and is one of the two best rapid spinners in the game, it lacks the raw power or bulk to provide that big of an impact. For the Offensive set, even a moderately well built team would have a way of dealing with water moves, and bolt-beam coverage doesn't really help out that much. Rapid spin becomes a liability for coverage along with life orb recoil, but without LO the power dip is quite obvious. The defensive set is basically just fishing for burns, because half the EVs are usually invested in speed rather than bulk, and while reflect type serves a niche in stopping some of Starmie's so called counters, it gives it very poor offensive presence without Scald STAB, which I feel is just wasting one turn since the opponent can switch out to something else to hit Starmie Super-Effectively.
First time posting, haven't got used to this reasoning stuff yet, would appreciate discussion and love feedback.
Just a heads up, we're seriously considering dropping Mega Altaria to A-. It's struggling a lot atm for various reasons, mainly because of how prepared teams are for Fairy-types in general, and the fact that both its initial speed and wallbreaking prowess are mediocre makes it hard to justify using over Diancie or Gardevoir. It's got a variety of sets, but none of them are that good currently. Offensive DD has an hard time to setting up, is easy to revenge kill, and has to choose between Roost and Fire Blast meaning either can't break past most Fairy checks or gets worn down super easily. Defensive DD has no coverage and thus just loses to most Fairy resists (which most teams carry a couple of), and since it has no immediate offensive presence and takes a while to get going, relies heavily on the opponent giving you free turns to sweep. The All-Out-Attacker set is actually kinda hard to switch into, but still doesn't really have the firepower or the defensive capabilities to truly make up for its low speed, is hard pressed to do much to offense, and is mostly outdone by Gardevoir. The defensive set is generally done better by MLatias, since there's not a single Dark-type in OU MAlt can actually switch in on, so all it really gains over it is the ability to handle Garchomp and Latis. So yeah, don't be surprised if Mega Altaria ends up dropping in the near future.
please continue
please continue
Continuing on things we've been talking about, the Mega Latias rise seems imminent. I'm personally of the opinion that it should go to A rank rather than just A-. I know that seems like a big jump but each time I see it in action lately it puts in a lot of work. Ice Beam + Thunderbolt is tough for offense to switch into, and it's a lot bulkier than the normal abusers of this combo (Mane/Raikou), plus it's much bulkier than its regular form so it can't really be dealt with in the same way. Dark types are up in usage (although Weavile has gotten less effective) but they don't apply as much pressure to Mega Latias as they do to many Psychics especially against sets like Reflect Type. Basically what I'm saying is that while many pokemon share traits with Mega Latias, the countermeasures to these don't necessarily deal with Mega Latias quite as well, meaning that it takes advantage of this and thus merits its own threat control.
I think it's better than its regular form (in A-) and Mega Manectric (in A), potentially Medicham as well. Moving it to A is potentially an overreaction for how underprepared many teams are for it, but I do think that currently it's really powerful.
I think it's better than its regular form (in A-) and Mega Manectric (in A), potentially Medicham as well. Moving it to A is potentially an overreaction for how underprepared many teams are for it, but I do think that currently it's really powerful.
Yeah I agree with both of the above posts. Mega Alt at the moment fits pretty well in A- with the other megas such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Slowbro, both of which can be absolutely devastating with the right support, but depend quite a lot on team support in order to succeed. I honestly wouldn't even say that Mega Alt is better than Mega Pinsir, considering that Mega Pinsir has immediate power right off the bat allowing it to hole punch early game, and it's fast enough so that it isn't outsped by practically every offensive Pokemon in the tier like Mega Alt. While Mega Alt provides much more utility defensively than Mega Pinsir AND can set up a bit easier too, it's still a lot easier to switch into and as Albacore said, it has to either sacrifice its ability to bust through bulky Steel-types which leaves it walled by practically any Steel-type not named 4x weak to EQ, or Roost which heavily limits its ability to abuse it fantastic defensive typing and accumulate DD boosts. I don't think Mega Aero is on par with Mega Alt though, and while it's good and I've seen people have great success with it, I just really don't see how Mega Aero is nearly as useful overall offensive and defensively than Mega Bro, Pinsir, or Altaria. All just seem to excel better and fit on more teams. I still think Mega Mane is on the cusp of A-, it's still pretty good even with the meta heavily shifting away from its favor, but Mega Medi is for sure A- now. It's very strong and balance just crumbles to it, but with all the Rocky Lando-T running around it's a bit harder for it to just mindlessly spam Fake Out + Hi Jump Kick without being punished. Rocky Chomp falling out of favor a bit is helping, but the meta right now it just a bit more fast paced than it was a while ago when Mega Medi was for sure A rank due to the influx in bulkier teams. Too much sand offense, Torn-T, Mega Lati, and Lando-T running around.
Mega Latias is A rank to me by far. It has gotten so much recent usage in SPL and for good reason. It's extremely bulky and very difficult to KO without strong super effective moves, it's not huge Knock Off bait, it's able to check a wide variety of dangerous offensive Pokes such as Mega Mane, Mega Lop, Lando-T, Manaphy, Keldeo, Chomp, Torn-T, Thundy, Zard-Y, Mega Medi, Serp, Loom, Pinsir, and the list goes on. T-wave is complete aids and it's amazing at spreading it due to its longevity, and with its great boltbeam coverage it can be a huge bitch to all kinds of teams. I swear Mega Lati's usage is one of the main causes in Mega Diancie being so popular lately, because it's one of the few Pokemon on offense that isn't threatened by T-wave or its boltbeam combo, and can KO in return. It's just very splashable on bulky offense and balance, and it just provides so much utility that I would say it's very worth using over plenty of the other megas, especially over the ones found in A- rank. I think A rank is a much better fit than A- for Mega Lati, and it raising it to A- first would be underselling it.
Mega Latias is A rank to me by far. It has gotten so much recent usage in SPL and for good reason. It's extremely bulky and very difficult to KO without strong super effective moves, it's not huge Knock Off bait, it's able to check a wide variety of dangerous offensive Pokes such as Mega Mane, Mega Lop, Lando-T, Manaphy, Keldeo, Chomp, Torn-T, Thundy, Zard-Y, Mega Medi, Serp, Loom, Pinsir, and the list goes on. T-wave is complete aids and it's amazing at spreading it due to its longevity, and with its great boltbeam coverage it can be a huge bitch to all kinds of teams. I swear Mega Lati's usage is one of the main causes in Mega Diancie being so popular lately, because it's one of the few Pokemon on offense that isn't threatened by T-wave or its boltbeam combo, and can KO in return. It's just very splashable on bulky offense and balance, and it just provides so much utility that I would say it's very worth using over plenty of the other megas, especially over the ones found in A- rank. I think A rank is a much better fit than A- for Mega Lati, and it raising it to A- first would be underselling it.
The mons in the discussion points I have little to no opinion towards, and due to obvious reasons I will refrain from commenting on them.
However, I would like to weigh in with my opinion on a mon(Mega Altaria) that's just been summoned to the chopping board, AGAIN. Although a part of me strongly believes that I am wasting my time and energy in this post, because based on recent figures - its fair to say that each time the subject was placed onto the chopping board the decision was already made, regardless. Despite that, I believe there's a campaign against MAlt, for instance - did you know that the aforementioned mon has been the only one to be moved down multiple places, since Sept 7th last year? that fact alone is insatiably disturbing. What's more, some of the reasoning's used are best summed up as unfair and misleading (should one consider the place Mega Altaria is threatened of being banished to); don't get me wrong I am not discrediting some of those cons. What I am trying to say is that they don't outweigh it's pros. And in doing so, only points to a popular expression/idiom in the line of "A bad workman always blames his tools". it's fair to say that most of the people on here are proficient gamers, therefore, I won't go into detail of its role - i will just summarise that MAlt is a mon who's at home when its supporting its team through its defensive utility, clerical duties, as well as sweeping when an opportunity is competently created. All in all, I'm against MAlt dropping
If Mega Altaria does drop? then, I would suggest that the same level of consistency gets shown to a lot of mons in the(Futuristically speaking) S, A rank (+ to -), and below
However, I would like to weigh in with my opinion on a mon(Mega Altaria) that's just been summoned to the chopping board, AGAIN. Although a part of me strongly believes that I am wasting my time and energy in this post, because based on recent figures - its fair to say that each time the subject was placed onto the chopping board the decision was already made, regardless. Despite that, I believe there's a campaign against MAlt, for instance - did you know that the aforementioned mon has been the only one to be moved down multiple places, since Sept 7th last year? that fact alone is insatiably disturbing. What's more, some of the reasoning's used are best summed up as unfair and misleading (should one consider the place Mega Altaria is threatened of being banished to); don't get me wrong I am not discrediting some of those cons. What I am trying to say is that they don't outweigh it's pros. And in doing so, only points to a popular expression/idiom in the line of "A bad workman always blames his tools". it's fair to say that most of the people on here are proficient gamers, therefore, I won't go into detail of its role - i will just summarise that MAlt is a mon who's at home when its supporting its team through its defensive utility, clerical duties, as well as sweeping when an opportunity is competently created. All in all, I'm against MAlt dropping
If Mega Altaria does drop? then, I would suggest that the same level of consistency gets shown to a lot of mons in the(Futuristically speaking) S, A rank (+ to -), and below
In response to the above post, is malt being dropped for its defensive utility set or its dragon dance sets? Its DD sets are fairly mediocre from my experience and its only real utility that I see is using a utility attacker set on heavy defensive or fat balance teams from my experience. It can function as a fat cleric that can check a lot of threats to stall like zardx, serp, mhera, zardy and others for some role compression for stall that is really appreciated and can really gel well with common defensive cores like skarmchans and such. It could still stay in A rank considering that it is good enough to compete with gliscor, zardy, and mgyara imo.
I agree with a- to a for breloom. It has spore to check tanky pokemon such as Tyranitar or Heatran, which often have less speed, or no speed investment, allowing breloom to threaten them with a spore with some speed investment. It can also use this turn to setup things such as a swords dance then a mach punch. Add technichian than you can OHKO a hefty amount of sweepers and a couple walls like Mega Lopunny, Magnezone, and 2HKO sweepers like mega charizard X after a swords dance. It can also check common pokemon such as keldeo, stamie, ferrothorn, and others on switch in. It can also somewhat counter fairy types with an iron tail if they try to switch in, as most of the common fairy types like slyveon, are slower than Breloom, so if they try to switch in, go for the iron tail, or spore them. It can also hit a large portion of the tier with STAB moves. But it does have its flaws. A middling 70 base speed, low special defense, fairly predictable movepool, lack of coverage moves, and a million weaknesses stop it from getting any higher than A, even though it has many good qualities that hit many parts of the tier, such as m. slowbro, Tyranitar, ferrothorn, excadrill, and many other big players in OU.
Note, 2HKO chrizard x needs adamant+life orb+max attack investment and a bit of prior damage to be safe I forgot to mention.
Note, 2HKO chrizard x needs adamant+life orb+max attack investment and a bit of prior damage to be safe I forgot to mention.
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He's talking about so Ada Life Orb Breloom Mach Punch can 2HKO it quite obviously... try reading next time.
I agree with a Breloom rise, it definitely has a tendency to prey on current teambuilding tendencies and is always one of those mons you fear in preview because unless you're running one of the defensive grasses, you're never comfortable switching into it. Fighting type priority also gets better and better in this metagame because sand and general offense aren't going away anytime soon.
I agree with a Breloom rise, it definitely has a tendency to prey on current teambuilding tendencies and is always one of those mons you fear in preview because unless you're running one of the defensive grasses, you're never comfortable switching into it. Fighting type priority also gets better and better in this metagame because sand and general offense aren't going away anytime soon.
Some ranks seriously need to be cleaned up before dropping Mega Altaria to A-. No way it is on the same level to mons like klefki, mega aerodactyl and mew in terms of effectiveness. It is really easy to support by just adding a magnezone to your build, typing is fantastic to cover mons like keldeo which the other mega fairies cant really cover, it also helps with mons like zard-X when you dont fill like adding sand cores to every single one of your teams, etc, etc. Ironically, its biggest nemesis lately in scarf jirachi is an excellent partner providing healing wish support which let you run double-edge, which gives it pretty inmediate power. I disagree with dropping mega altaria to A- right now. Some ranks need to be cleaned ASAP before this happens. Considering mega pinsir is in A- right now and these 2 megas seem to be compared, I would say mega pinsir is A rank then :P
Klefki to B+: This mon needs to drop. Provides invaluable support to offensive builds in the form of speed control and hazards with priority but I have to agree with Dice that choosing 4 moves for this mon can be really annoying. Standard klefki is clefable bait (no, cheesing through it doesnt count) and a steel type that cant really threaten clefable at all without resorting to niche options like metal sound is pretty unappealing. Then you want foul play to punish mons like mega metagross or scizor in general, a fairy STAB move to have a chance to put spikes on mega sableye builds, steel STAB for fairies like mega diancie, magnet rise, etc, etc. It fits better with the B+ rank since it is a mon that can be suited to the needs of a team and to patch potential weaknesses for a team but the steel type is something pretty valuable nowadays and it have been rather lackluster lately in that department.
Breloom to stay in A-: As much as I love this mon and absolutely like the attention it is getting because it is really good, this mon shouldnt be eating sand builds alive nowadays. If you pack a sand build where breloom can choose whatever to get it to sleep and then proceed to dismantle your sand core with STAB mach punch then it is a bad sand team. The threat of spore is always present but thats why it is A- rank in the first place. Moment you pick up your sleep fodder breloom can become rather easy to check since there are many fast fighting checks like the latis and tornadus that are pretty common in today builds, weavile outprioritize with ice shard, it wont get past mega scizor and jirachi unless a ton of prior damage, and choosing between adamant and jolly nature can be pretty annoying (I prefer jolly loom 100% cause having a fighting type that loses to jolly bisharp isnt an option in this day and age). Keep it A-. It is good but not that good, dont overrate it.
Keep Mega Manectric in A: Still a great mon no matter sand and mega latias popularity since mega manectric pairs really well with dark types like weavile and bisharp, and grass mons like breloom which gives headache to mega latias and sand respectively. It is also a mega that provides some ease on teambuilding since having a fast electric type with great coverage and fantastic speed (something something fuck talonflame) is really amazing. Spikes + Manectric is amazing and you still tend to see teams pretty weak to it nowadays. It still has the individual merits to be an A rank mon.
Dont care much about the rest of the batch (is there even a batch to discuss about?) so yeah, I will just leave it like this.
Klefki to B+: This mon needs to drop. Provides invaluable support to offensive builds in the form of speed control and hazards with priority but I have to agree with Dice that choosing 4 moves for this mon can be really annoying. Standard klefki is clefable bait (no, cheesing through it doesnt count) and a steel type that cant really threaten clefable at all without resorting to niche options like metal sound is pretty unappealing. Then you want foul play to punish mons like mega metagross or scizor in general, a fairy STAB move to have a chance to put spikes on mega sableye builds, steel STAB for fairies like mega diancie, magnet rise, etc, etc. It fits better with the B+ rank since it is a mon that can be suited to the needs of a team and to patch potential weaknesses for a team but the steel type is something pretty valuable nowadays and it have been rather lackluster lately in that department.
Breloom to stay in A-: As much as I love this mon and absolutely like the attention it is getting because it is really good, this mon shouldnt be eating sand builds alive nowadays. If you pack a sand build where breloom can choose whatever to get it to sleep and then proceed to dismantle your sand core with STAB mach punch then it is a bad sand team. The threat of spore is always present but thats why it is A- rank in the first place. Moment you pick up your sleep fodder breloom can become rather easy to check since there are many fast fighting checks like the latis and tornadus that are pretty common in today builds, weavile outprioritize with ice shard, it wont get past mega scizor and jirachi unless a ton of prior damage, and choosing between adamant and jolly nature can be pretty annoying (I prefer jolly loom 100% cause having a fighting type that loses to jolly bisharp isnt an option in this day and age). Keep it A-. It is good but not that good, dont overrate it.
Keep Mega Manectric in A: Still a great mon no matter sand and mega latias popularity since mega manectric pairs really well with dark types like weavile and bisharp, and grass mons like breloom which gives headache to mega latias and sand respectively. It is also a mega that provides some ease on teambuilding since having a fast electric type with great coverage and fantastic speed (something something fuck talonflame) is really amazing. Spikes + Manectric is amazing and you still tend to see teams pretty weak to it nowadays. It still has the individual merits to be an A rank mon.
Dont care much about the rest of the batch (is there even a batch to discuss about?) so yeah, I will just leave it like this.
What. Then why in the heavens would you add a klefki to your team? 9/10 times people would like a steel type to their teams due to the cushion this mon provides and the excellent typing synergy especially on offensive builds. Klefki should drop because it fits much better with the idea of a B+ ranked mon. A mon that can be accomodated to the needs of a team virtue of its role compression, but in this metagame the steel type teamslot is pretty coveted and people generally wants their steel type to actually cover fairies. Klefki cant really do that unless it runs specific moves that lead it to sacrifice the ability to deal with something else (spikes and thunder wave are a given, from here you want foul play, flash cannon, fairy STAB, magnet rise, etc) meaning it lacks general consistency.
In the end klefki should drop because is just not as effective as other spike setters, and building with it makes clefable more of a headache than it should be. And to answer the quote, you are using klefki because of thunder wave?? then why not use thundurus + ferrothorn or something. You cant really compress that much on klefki.
Uh yeah so couple things. Flash Cannon should be the STAB of choice most of the time on Klefki IMO because Mega Diancie. It is a good check to Gardevoir regardless of its coverage, and while it doesn't 1v1 Clefable by any means, most people would much prefer to not let theirs be crippled by Paralysis. It never checked Azu well. Not like you can't run another steel type, either. I'll get to the point of not being able to handle other things at the end.
You're right, it isn't as effective as the other spike setters. And the viability ranking already reflects that fact because it is ranked below Ferro and Skarm.
I know your Thundurus + Ferro comment recognizes its not the same thing, however implying you can't compress these facets (steel type switchin to Fairies/Dragons + Spikes + Prankster Twave) is simply not true. This is in fact Klefkis primary niche and these are the roles it does consistently compress.
Regarding the coverage issue, I think the main issue is Sableye and Diancie. Firstly Dazzling Gleam Klefki can't even reliably set up on Sableye so that whole coverage problem is overblown. If you run a Spike stacking team you need ways to deal with Sableye, and Klefki has never been a reliable one. Foul Play is mainly a thing for setup sweepers like Lando-T and Scizor, which are simple enough to check. If Klefki is your Latios and Diancie check but also needs to handle certain physical attackers (outside of TWave) then you have done something wrong with your build. Yes this is a limitation of Klefki, but is not an extremely strong indicator of 4mss. I also think there's some kind of misconception that Klefki really needs to be able to spike up on ground types like Hippo, Lando, etc. This really isn't true since it has plenty of other opportunities to set up a Spike. Magnet Rise is pretty overrated IMO and probably overused compared to Toxic and Heal Block.
"Failing to compress the roles" is what I keep hearing but Klefki never compressed all the roles it can fulfill. No pokemon is capable of compressing all these roles, I think the problem here is expectation. If you want a Latios switchin that can cripple most setup sweepers and set up spikes, Klefki can do that job. It still has a coverage and utility moveslot left, too. The moment you want it to do the aforementioned things, check Mega Diancie and punish SD Scizor as well, that's when you should be asking yourself if another team member can be edited to check Diancie or Scizor instead. Klefki has inherited the concept of 'check-all' but that was never really true and needs to be recognized. Does that mean it should be B+? Maybe, but the current arguments have me more convinced that Klefki is letting you down because you are expecting too much. Nobody is complaining that Heatran can't set up Stealth Rock, Toxic bulky waters, 1v1 Spdef Talon (rock move) and Clefable (taunt or steel move), and still have room for Lava Plume.
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ill maybe talk about klefki later but it shouldnt drop, its the single best offensive utility mon in the tier and the support it provides is unmatched and it has incredible compression overall. it's kinda limited to offense but that's applicable to other things.
i want to talk about mega absol a bit. can we drop this mon to d rank or just unrank it completely? this mon is almost entirely outclassed by bisharp and weavile as an offensive dark type and completely outclassed by mega diancie as a mixed attacker. the only set it pulls off without being outclassed is its sd bp set and even then its godawful because you're wasting your mega slot on a terrible bper with 0 bulk or power. it's not even a good pursuit trapper either, people think weaviles mediocre at it because of its bulk, but absol blows weavile out of the water with its insane 65/60/60 bulk which means it dies to pretty much anything ou can throw at it. more than half the shit in c rank is way better than mega absol, it definitely needs to be considered for a drop down to d or just unranked.
i want to talk about mega absol a bit. can we drop this mon to d rank or just unrank it completely? this mon is almost entirely outclassed by bisharp and weavile as an offensive dark type and completely outclassed by mega diancie as a mixed attacker. the only set it pulls off without being outclassed is its sd bp set and even then its godawful because you're wasting your mega slot on a terrible bper with 0 bulk or power. it's not even a good pursuit trapper either, people think weaviles mediocre at it because of its bulk, but absol blows weavile out of the water with its insane 65/60/60 bulk which means it dies to pretty much anything ou can throw at it. more than half the shit in c rank is way better than mega absol, it definitely needs to be considered for a drop down to d or just unranked.
UPDATE: Ignore this post. I misjudged it badly and others have pointed out. I have made more recent posts that make much more sense.
This is only my second post on the forum, but I've played 6th gen OU for long while with a respectable 1500 ELO on Showdown. Before I talk about Scizor, I'll say a bit about Klefki. I agree with p2 that it shouldn't drop since it's great as utility and can run flash cannon sacrificing Magnet Rise / Toxic to take out weakened Clefable or incoming Mega Diancie. While it doesn't have reliable recovery or whirlwind like Skarmory, it has great typing and Prankster Thunder Wave. It should be within one rank close to Skarmory.
Now for Mega-Scizor and regular Scizor. First of all, why is Mega Scizor is A+ but Scizor is all the way down B? Mega Scizor isn't that great of a mega anyway while banded Scizor is pivoting around generating momentum and doing chunks of damage.
Mega-
A+ -> A. Mega Scizor has two roles, defensive/offensive sword dance, and the defog set, and he doesn't perform either of them as ideally as any of the other Pokes in the A+ rank. Offensively, he has a very hard time sweeping or cleaning with the sword dance set, mainly because a huge portion of the metagame resists both or one of his main STAB(s), Charizard-X/Y, Talon Flame, Keldeo, Gyarados, Megagross, Heatran, Rotom-W, Thundurus, Raikou, Manaphy, Ferrothorn, Landorous, and probably a few more that I didn't mention. Even if there are only 3 Pokemon left on the opponent's team, one of them is pretty much guaranteed to be one of the above. Mega-Scizor can act as a pivot, but that's outclassed by regular choice-band Scizor. The defog set is commonly used by people who don't end up finding another defogger suitable like Latios, kind of a filler mega. Mega Scizor doesn't gain much from the mega stone on the defog set other than slightly more bulk, which often makes it a waste of a mega unless you have no other megas. Defog Scizor isn't really good much other than for defogging and pivoting. Offensively, it's pitiful weak, failing to revenge kill fast threats at times or 2HKO others. It only has a 64.1% chance to 2HKO 172 Def EV standard Clefable at full health, which might allow flamethrower/fire blast variants to roast him. All in all, Mega Scizor doesn't serve any of his roles as well as the other A+ mon and should drop.
B -> A. Huge jump, I know, but is he really supposed to sit next to Eviolite Chansey, NU Quagsire, Reuniclus, Tangrowth, Gastrodon, and Mega-Sharpedo? Lol no. Regular Scizor has one main set, Choice Band, with other sets outclassed by his Mega variant, but he serves it well. Scizor is an excellent pivot, often pairing up well with a Volt-Turn core with Rotom-W and/or Landorous-T. With a choice band, he reaches a hard-hitting 657 attack. Bullet Punch can easily destroy fairies with Technician STAB 90 Bullet Punch and revenge kill many other faster threats, and U-turn allows him to pressure all sorts of teams. Superpower can break pass common switch-ins such as Heatran. In addition, he can run pursuit to trap psychic/ghost types like Latios, Gengar, and Mega Gardevoir with some prediction involved. Knock off can do a reasonable chunk of damage of get rid of leftovers or whatever item. All in all, he's a great pivot for a Volt-Turn core. I don't think he should be A+ because Landorous has both better stats with Intimidate and can run Choice Scarf to revenge kill, but he also shouldn't be A- since he puts enough pressure on the opposing team to deserve his A spot.
P.S. I couldn't find a Mega-Scizor sprite anywhere. Does anyone know one?
UPDATE: Ignore this post. I misjudged it badly and others have pointed out. I have made more recent posts that make much more sense.
This is only my second post on the forum, but I've played 6th gen OU for long while with a respectable 1500 ELO on Showdown. Before I talk about Scizor, I'll say a bit about Klefki. I agree with p2 that it shouldn't drop since it's great as utility and can run flash cannon sacrificing Magnet Rise / Toxic to take out weakened Clefable or incoming Mega Diancie. While it doesn't have reliable recovery or whirlwind like Skarmory, it has great typing and Prankster Thunder Wave. It should be within one rank close to Skarmory.
Now for Mega-Scizor and regular Scizor. First of all, why is Mega Scizor is A+ but Scizor is all the way down B? Mega Scizor isn't that great of a mega anyway while banded Scizor is pivoting around generating momentum and doing chunks of damage.
Mega-
P.S. I couldn't find a Mega-Scizor sprite anywhere. Does anyone know one?
UPDATE: Ignore this post. I misjudged it badly and others have pointed out. I have made more recent posts that make much more sense.
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You didn't recognize Mega Scizor's defensive prowess, as it's able to switch into a ton of things, including Mega Metagross, and then potentially use them as setup fodder. The list for that is somewhat long, but it includes stuff like Mega Metagross, Tyranitar (non fire blast), Weavile, Latios/Latias (non HP Fire), Mega Altaria, and fairy types lacking HP Fire or a fire move. The Offensive variant with Bug Bite can also get past Rotom-Wash really easily, being able to have a decent chance to 1HKO at +2 with Bug Bite with Stealth Rocks on the field. Just having resists on each team doesn't make it less viable, and if the opponent didn't have anything that resisted its stabs, it's a bad team. Mega Scizor can do a ton for a team, defensively and offensively, and in general, there should be no reason to set up and attempt to sweep early in the game when switch ins like Keldeo are still healthy. You have to wait late or mid game until it's weakened enough to get KO'd by Scizor, or have it KO'd by something else. The bulk gained from the mega evolution is the main difference between regular Scizor and its regular form, as the extra bulk really gives it more chances to set up. Being able to set up with more ease thanks to more bulk is a great advantage Mega Scizor has over regular Scizor.
If you run the bulky Mega Scizor set, you're probably not gonna invest much in Attack, and unboosted Bullet Punch isn't exactly the strongest move either (reaching base 90 power after stab), so it's no surprise that it won't exactly do that much. Defog Mega Scizor isn't that great, and it's not the set that helps Mega Scizor be in A+, so there's not much reason to mention it. Choice Band Scizor runs full attack investment with an adamant nature and a choice band, so it's gonna be hitting significantly harder than a Mega Scizor with no attack investment or anything. I love Choice Band Scizor a ton too, but it's not good enough to rise to A ranking. Also, Lando-T and Scizor have nothing in common, so there's no reason to compare them.
Overall, Mega Scizor is a fantastic mon to use in the current metagame, and you're underestimating it by a significant degree, so if you wanna learn more about it, there's threads here in the forums, smogdex, and teams on the sample teams thread as well as the team building workshop that have teams with Mega Scizor that should give you a better feel for how great it can be. Hopefully this helps a little, and I hope you have a good rest of the day wherever you are.
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huh why should msciz drop, its perfectly fine in a+. quit cherrypicking a mon's strengths and flaws just to raise sciz up/lower msciz down. i'll like to consider msciz as one of the best megas and offensive wincons in lategame rn. i like to think bulky sd is a really stellar set in the current meta that can hold its own vs any playstyle. msciz compresses the role of fairy check/drag check/steel check/win con/pivot etc and it comes w/ reliable recovery which is pretty neat. its checks are ridiculously easy to wear down, stuff like zards/talon having 4x sr weakness really doesnt want to come in vs msciz if sr is up unless it rly needs to, and the latter "steel" resists are so easy to wear down. rh chomper for example is notoriously easy to wear down cuz its p much the go to pivot for most bulky offense teams. nonetheless when u weigh its pros and cons out and how big of a threat it becomes lategame and how easy it is to open up a sweep cuz of its checks' lack of recovery+it gives itself many opportunities to set up by virtue of its good defensive typing and added bulk. also stuff like tran/mag/keld dont rly want to switch in vs msciz directly for fear of +0 superpower cuz it does a big chunk to all 3 of them (former 2 are nearly kod after a bit of prior dmg and latter takes 45%ish+ which is still solid chip damage. agreed that defog is kinda ass rn, i feel that defog msciz is a waste of a slot esp when u consider theres so many better hazard control mons out there, don't see how u cant fit one of them in ur team, but my main gripe w/ it is due to its lack of offensive presence if its not packing sd. dont exactly like u turn on msciz either cuz when its pivoting out vs chomper, its taking nearly 30% dmg back and thats pretty big for a mon thats supposed to sustain till mid/lategame.
dont rly have much experience with cb sciz since bw2 but man it kinda sucks now. it doesnt match up well vs offense at all esp when u consider its role is supposed to be an early/midgame breaker, and all its gonna do vs offense is rly just u-turn and pivot out while not doing sufficient damage. furthermore it kinda constricting for the team and more than likely its gonna be the dedicated dragon/fairy sponge but its taking a ton more damage compared to msciz. i dont cb sciz as the role of a pursuitter either, the fact that its getting 2hkod by gar w/ sball and has a chance to get 2hkod by mgarde w/ hvoice after sr makes it all the more harder for cb sciz to reliably trap. pursuit isnt rly one of cb sciz's selling points at all, if i needed one i'll prob go to av meta which is a better dragon sponge or scarf ttar which provides more utility. i don't fancy cb sciz either purely cuz its too slow of a u turn user (unlike say tornt) or defensive utility (i.e. sr landt) knock off kinda does decent chip dmg no matter the mon lol, cb sciz isn't some incredible nuke w/ it or something. im kinda more convinced that it should be on the same tier as things like mbeedrill cuz both are playing the same role as an offensive pivot with a strong u turn.
dont rly have much experience with cb sciz since bw2 but man it kinda sucks now. it doesnt match up well vs offense at all esp when u consider its role is supposed to be an early/midgame breaker, and all its gonna do vs offense is rly just u-turn and pivot out while not doing sufficient damage. furthermore it kinda constricting for the team and more than likely its gonna be the dedicated dragon/fairy sponge but its taking a ton more damage compared to msciz. i dont cb sciz as the role of a pursuitter either, the fact that its getting 2hkod by gar w/ sball and has a chance to get 2hkod by mgarde w/ hvoice after sr makes it all the more harder for cb sciz to reliably trap. pursuit isnt rly one of cb sciz's selling points at all, if i needed one i'll prob go to av meta which is a better dragon sponge or scarf ttar which provides more utility. i don't fancy cb sciz either purely cuz its too slow of a u turn user (unlike say tornt) or defensive utility (i.e. sr landt) knock off kinda does decent chip dmg no matter the mon lol, cb sciz isn't some incredible nuke w/ it or something. im kinda more convinced that it should be on the same tier as things like mbeedrill cuz both are playing the same role as an offensive pivot with a strong u turn.
Team Pokepals Good point. I did not spend enough time thinking to realize that Mega-Metagross is actually setup fodder -- was just listing as many type resistances I could think of, and I wasn't going to spend a lot of time for each mon. You're right. +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor can take out weakened Keldeo, TalonFlame, etc. To be honest, I've never ever used SD Mega Scizor and I haven't seen a single person who did in over hundreds of battles, so it's obviously hard to determine how good it is. For banded Scizor and Landorous, I meant the similarities as Volt-Turn pivots and/or revenge killers (if Landorous-scarfed) besides typing differences. Now, I agree with you that SD Mega Scizor should stay A+. Thanks for the explanation. I do think the Defog variant is considered A- or something, though, since Latios can Defog and Draco Meteor, while Mega Scizor can't really do much damage. (UPDATE: Nevermind, I noticed that the defog set is already rated B+ on the viability sets V4 thread.) Speaking of which, I don't think Defog Mega-Scizor should be rated higher than regular CB Scizor. They serve different roles, and one of them isn't better than the other, a bulky defogger or a strong pivot.
As for regular Scizor, don't you guys think banded Scizor should be at least be B+? My previous call for A was quite wild, but I think it does nicely as B+. I find myself doing 30-40% damage from U-Turn around 3-4 times every battle which although doesn't mean any KOs, equates up to 90-160% HP. Or maybe I'm just predicting my opponent well and that could explain so many U-Turns? It contributes to my teams nearly as much as Rotom-W but definitely not as much as something as Keldeo. DracoNinja I like how you pointed out Mega Beedrill. I think they both serve very similar roles. Both it and CB Scizor kill fairies and do damage pivoting and while Scizor has priority, Mega Beedrill has speed. They can run Superpower and Drill Run to take care of Heatran. The thing that differs them though is that Mega Beedrill is frail as paper unlike CB Scizor, which isn't very bulky but at least can survive a neutral attack that Mega Beedrill can't, not to mention Stealth Rock damage. Also Mega Beedrill needs to use Protect to mega evolve, so it can't run both knock off and drill run, which makes it inferior most of the time. It also takes up your mega slot, and you need to have a slow Volt-Switcher to actually switch into Mega Beedrill. The only real reason that anyone would use Mega Beedrill over CB Scizor is if you don't want to be choice-locked, but 75% of the time, you'll just use U-turn. So this makes me realize that CB Scizor needs to be one rank higher than Mega Beedrill, so it should at least rise to B+.
As for regular Scizor, don't you guys think banded Scizor should be at least be B+? My previous call for A was quite wild, but I think it does nicely as B+. I find myself doing 30-40% damage from U-Turn around 3-4 times every battle which although doesn't mean any KOs, equates up to 90-160% HP. Or maybe I'm just predicting my opponent well and that could explain so many U-Turns? It contributes to my teams nearly as much as Rotom-W but definitely not as much as something as Keldeo. DracoNinja I like how you pointed out Mega Beedrill. I think they both serve very similar roles. Both it and CB Scizor kill fairies and do damage pivoting and while Scizor has priority, Mega Beedrill has speed. They can run Superpower and Drill Run to take care of Heatran. The thing that differs them though is that Mega Beedrill is frail as paper unlike CB Scizor, which isn't very bulky but at least can survive a neutral attack that Mega Beedrill can't, not to mention Stealth Rock damage. Also Mega Beedrill needs to use Protect to mega evolve, so it can't run both knock off and drill run, which makes it inferior most of the time. It also takes up your mega slot, and you need to have a slow Volt-Switcher to actually switch into Mega Beedrill. The only real reason that anyone would use Mega Beedrill over CB Scizor is if you don't want to be choice-locked, but 75% of the time, you'll just use U-turn. So this makes me realize that CB Scizor needs to be one rank higher than Mega Beedrill, so it should at least rise to B+.
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About Klefki,
It offers extreme role compression for offense; providing speed control for slower teams, being a great lati switch in, stacking spikes, and ability to check a multitude of mons based on its last moveslot. Klefki can still check the dragons that it wants to (i.e the lati twins) with flash cannon since it takes jack shit from resisted psyshock, and leaving the lati twins paralyzed isn't exactly the worst thing in the world. Literally the only mon that it misses out on killing by not using dazzling gleam is msab, which you don't spike up on and it knocks off your lefties while burning you, so staying in to gleam is more detrimental than helpful. Additionally, Klefki should really be used as a glue mon to patch up the last few weaknesses that a team possesses as opposed to people that say it should be a check to scizor/diancie/sab/chomp/lati twins/lando/hippo/everything else it can check because nothing has that much role compression in the entire metagame lol. Does it have minor 4MSS? Yes, but that's why it is A- rank as a utility mon and spiker. Ferro and skarm don't suffer from 4MSS as much as spikers, and that is reflected in the VR. It is too good of a mon to drop any further because of its utility and nice role compression for offense, although it isn't the ultimate end-all be all check to half the meta, it is still a really good glue/utility mon to finish off a solid offensive team.
Keep Klefki in A-
It offers extreme role compression for offense; providing speed control for slower teams, being a great lati switch in, stacking spikes, and ability to check a multitude of mons based on its last moveslot. Klefki can still check the dragons that it wants to (i.e the lati twins) with flash cannon since it takes jack shit from resisted psyshock, and leaving the lati twins paralyzed isn't exactly the worst thing in the world. Literally the only mon that it misses out on killing by not using dazzling gleam is msab, which you don't spike up on and it knocks off your lefties while burning you, so staying in to gleam is more detrimental than helpful. Additionally, Klefki should really be used as a glue mon to patch up the last few weaknesses that a team possesses as opposed to people that say it should be a check to scizor/diancie/sab/chomp/lati twins/lando/hippo/everything else it can check because nothing has that much role compression in the entire metagame lol. Does it have minor 4MSS? Yes, but that's why it is A- rank as a utility mon and spiker. Ferro and skarm don't suffer from 4MSS as much as spikers, and that is reflected in the VR. It is too good of a mon to drop any further because of its utility and nice role compression for offense, although it isn't the ultimate end-all be all check to half the meta, it is still a really good glue/utility mon to finish off a solid offensive team.
Keep Klefki in A-
Base Scizor shouldn't be rising, I could see it potentially going up in another meta but I really don't like it right now. It's abilities as a revenge killer and pivot are really kind of mediocre when you consider how easy it is to wear out and wall with really common stuff. Having both Garchomp and Landorus-T show up on a combined 50% of teams isn't much of a deterrent for MegaZor, who can set up on them, but BandZor loses to both pretty hard and in TankChomp's case is gonna take a ton of damage for just using an attack. I don't like using it as a revenge killer because of this, yes you force out Weavile / Mega Diancie / Clefable, but you also invite incredibly common mons like Keldeo, Heatran, Skarmory, Zards, and Talonflame in for very little, especially if they catch you when Scizor isn't mashing U-Turn. Add that on to Scizor's average bulk and low speed, and it just comes out looking very lackluster. It's generally outclassed too, Metagross does Pursuit trapping better while Bisharp, Breloom, Weavile, and Metagross can all do priority revenge killing as well. Then you consider that Mega Scizor does most of this better than regular Scizor and that Scizor's niches haven't become any more relevant than they used to be... B Rank is a pretty good gauge as to where it stands
Gonna nominate Starmie to move up to A Rank. It's currently the best Rapid Spinner in the tier and still one of the better forms of hazard removal since it's able to crush every hazard setter bar Ferrothorn (HP Fire is an option I guess, ruins coverage though). Other forms of offensive hazard removal, such as Lati@s, Excadrill, etc have fairly significant flaws that allow hazard setters to come in and set up Rocks again. With Starmie that's a lot less of an issue, and as a result it's a great supporter for SR weak mons like Talonflame and Zard X. On top of that it's generally tough to switch into when considering it's good coverage, and Keldeo's popularity helps it in that people tend to pack checks like Amoongus, Slowbro, and Latias to stop it, which is easier for Starmie to handle thanks to its coverage options. I just generally find it to be very strong at the moment and feel like it's on par with a lot of the stuff currently in A Rank.
EDIT: Yeah defensive Starmie is complete ass and I'm not asking for it to move up based on that, should have mentioned it in the first place oops
Also gonna nominate to unrank Emboar. This mon manages to be slow, frail, and outclassed by most of the other wallbreakers in OU, and I really don't see why you would run this over Victini or Mixed Infernape, or even things like Hoopa-U or Kyurem-B if you're looking for brute force. If you're dying for priority on your wallbreaker there's Crawdaunt and Honchkrow(?) as well. The only niche this thing has is on Trick Room teams, which are gimmicky and inconsistent in the first place, and it's not like Emboar is carrying TR teams either.
Gonna nominate Starmie to move up to A Rank. It's currently the best Rapid Spinner in the tier and still one of the better forms of hazard removal since it's able to crush every hazard setter bar Ferrothorn (HP Fire is an option I guess, ruins coverage though). Other forms of offensive hazard removal, such as Lati@s, Excadrill, etc have fairly significant flaws that allow hazard setters to come in and set up Rocks again. With Starmie that's a lot less of an issue, and as a result it's a great supporter for SR weak mons like Talonflame and Zard X. On top of that it's generally tough to switch into when considering it's good coverage, and Keldeo's popularity helps it in that people tend to pack checks like Amoongus, Slowbro, and Latias to stop it, which is easier for Starmie to handle thanks to its coverage options. I just generally find it to be very strong at the moment and feel like it's on par with a lot of the stuff currently in A Rank.
EDIT: Yeah defensive Starmie is complete ass and I'm not asking for it to move up based on that, should have mentioned it in the first place oops
Also gonna nominate to unrank Emboar. This mon manages to be slow, frail, and outclassed by most of the other wallbreakers in OU, and I really don't see why you would run this over Victini or Mixed Infernape, or even things like Hoopa-U or Kyurem-B if you're looking for brute force. If you're dying for priority on your wallbreaker there's Crawdaunt and Honchkrow(?) as well. The only niche this thing has is on Trick Room teams, which are gimmicky and inconsistent in the first place, and it's not like Emboar is carrying TR teams either.
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This is only my second post on the forum, but I've played 6th gen OU for long while with a respectable 1500 ELO on Showdown. Before I talk about Scizor, I'll say a bit about Klefki. I agree with p2 that it shouldn't drop since it's great as utility and can run flash cannon sacrificing Magnet Rise / Toxic to take out weakened Clefable or incoming Mega Diancie. While it doesn't have reliable recovery or whirlwind like Skarmory, it has great typing and Prankster Thunder Wave. It should be within one rank close to Skarmory.
Now for Mega-Scizor and regular Scizor. First of all, why is Mega Scizor is A+ but Scizor is all the way down B? Mega Scizor isn't that great of a mega anyway while banded Scizor is pivoting around generating momentum and doing chunks of damage.
Mega-A+ -> A. Mega Scizor has two roles, defensive/offensive sword dance, and the defog set, and he doesn't perform either of them as ideally as any of the other Pokes in the A+ rank. Offensively, he has a very hard time sweeping or cleaning with the sword dance set, mainly because a huge portion of the metagame resists both or one of his main STAB(s), Charizard-X/Y, Talon Flame, Keldeo, Gyarados, Megagross, Heatran, Rotom-W, Thundurus, Raikou, Manaphy, Ferrothorn, Landorous, and probably a few more that I didn't mention. Even if there are only 3 Pokemon left on the opponent's team, one of them is pretty much guaranteed to be one of the above. Mega-Scizor can act as a pivot, but that's outclassed by regular choice-band Scizor. The defog set is commonly used by people who don't end up finding another defogger suitable like Latios, kind of a filler mega. Mega Scizor doesn't gain much from the mega stone on the defog set other than slightly more bulk, which often makes it a waste of a mega unless you have no other megas. Defog Scizor isn't really good much other than for defogging and pivoting. Offensively, it's pitiful weak, failing to revenge kill fast threats at times or 2HKO others. It only has a 64.1% chance to 2HKO 172 Def EV standard Clefable at full health, which might allow flamethrower/fire blast variants to roast him. All in all, Mega Scizor doesn't serve any of his roles as well as the other A+ mon and should drop.
B -> A. Huge jump, I know, but is he really supposed to sit next to Eviolite Chansey, NU Quagsire, Reuniclus, Tangrowth, Gastrodon, and Mega-Sharpedo? Lol no. Regular Scizor has one main set, Choice Band, with other sets outclassed by his Mega variant, but he serves it well. Scizor is an excellent pivot, often pairing up well with a Volt-Turn core with Rotom-W and/or Landorous-T. With a choice band, he reaches a hard-hitting 657 attack. Bullet Punch can easily destroy fairies with Technician STAB 90 Bullet Punch and revenge kill many other faster threats, and U-turn allows him to pressure all sorts of teams. Superpower can break pass common switch-ins such as Heatran. In addition, he can run pursuit to trap psychic/ghost types like Latios, Gengar, and Mega Gardevoir with some prediction involved. Knock off can do a reasonable chunk of damage of get rid of leftovers or whatever item. All in all, he's a great pivot for a Volt-Turn core. I don't think he should be A+ because Landorous has both better stats with Intimidate and can run Choice Scarf to revenge kill, but he also shouldn't be A- since he puts enough pressure on the opposing team to deserve his A spot.
P.S. I couldn't find a Mega-Scizor sprite anywhere. Does anyone know one?
Scizor from B -> A: Disagree
You're nomming mega scizor for the same rank as you're nomming normal scizor for which is rediculous in my view. Mega scizor is far better in most situations, and choice band scizor is rarely used when mega is an option. Normal scizor has an extremely hard time switching into attacks directly agains the things its supposed to check , as its bulk is less than amazing without its mega evolution, and nearly all the things it checks run coverage that smacks it on the switchin. I also think your perspective is flawed, as chansey, quagsire, reuniclus, and tangrowth are all very viable mons, but are just more niche choices over other, higher ranked mons. Normal scizor fits in very well in B. It does have a nice niche on voltswitch teams, and its certainly not a bad pokemon, but implying that scizor is as good as other A rank mons like mega medicham, kyrem black, or rotom-w is simply ridiculous. I also think you need to realize that choice items make prediction very important, and cb scizor is much harder to use as a result. Normal scizor also has the con of lower speed, and being easily outsped by most mons in the tier. It cannot reliably revenge pokemon like heatran with superpower because of this mediocre speed tier. It is extremely reliant on bullet punch, which almost all teams have a switchin to, and its use of exclusively contact moves makes it have a hard time with rocky helmet pokemon like tank chomp.
Update time
Jirachi: A- -> A
Mega Latias: B+ -> A-
Tangrowth: B -> B+
Feraligatr: B+ -> B
Crawdaunt: B- -> B
Magneton: B- -> C
Alomomola: C+ -> B-
Zygarde: C- -> C+
Hoopa-C: C -> Unranked
Crobat: D -> Unranked
Mega Latios: D -> Unranked
Blissey: D -> C-
Jellicent: D -> C-
Umbreon: Unranked -> D
Xatu: Unranked -> D
Ok so time for a few explanations. We've placed Mega Latias in A- for the time being, but think that it going to A is still a solid discussion point. Upon reviewing some reactions to a Mega Altaria drop I decided to hold off on doing it and let people have a chance to discuss it first, although we did all agree it could probably drop now.
Magneton just doesn't have a very large niche where Weavile's sorta lost some luster and plenty of teams have Talonflame checks already. Really outspeeding Torn-T and Scarftar I guess lol, but Magnezone is basically just way better. Zygarde really just isn't bad on the level of low C rank stuff since it does have DD and ESpeed, good typing and bulk too. Not a super viable mon but we felt it deserved a bump.
As you can see we've started our lower rank cleanup to some degree, so here are some things from that:
Crobat is honestly just bad. No reason to use it.. another Defogger that loses to common Defog beaters like Bisharp, Weavile and Ttar. Really has no niche.
Hoopa-C is honestly just irrelevant when Hoopa-U is available. Mega Latios is pretty similar, this is basically just a formality.
Jellicent and Blissey aren't really D rank bad just in the sense that they can fit into a few teams where you don't really have to specifically build around them unlike Shedinja or Meloetta. Blissey being a pretty good Manaphy answer is nice, although Mana's died down its still a big threat to stall
Umbreon's seen some usage as a special wall on some stall teams and for good reason - its typing gives it neutrality to a ton of things and it does have some absurd bulk. Foul Play + Synchronize + its typing being the main niche over Clefable/clerics really.
Xatu is honestly not very good but Magic Bounce is just one of those abilities. Primarily ranked because it can be pretty annoying in tandem with another Magic Bounce user like Diancie. That core in particular applies a lot of pressure to opposing teams in the sense that Xatu is often the obvious switch-in but Diancie can come in on mind games more often than on other teams. T-Wave and U-turn give it pretty cool utility.
Discussion:
Weavile: A+ -> A
Mega Altaria: A -> A-
Mega Medicham: A -> A-
Mega Latias: A- -> A
Starmie: A- -> A
Raikou: A- -> B+
Klefki: A- -> B+
Amoonguss: B+ -> A-
Mew: A- -> B+
Gyarados: A- -> B+
Togekiss: B+ -> B
Mamoswine: B+ -> B
Reuniclus: B -> B+
Entei: C+ -> B-
Empoleon: B- -> C+
Not really gonna go into the discussion slate much. Just keep in mind that stuff like a Weavile drop may be too soon but it's time to acknowledge that its time in the sun is kinda over and discuss where it's really at in the metagame now.
brb updating OP
Jirachi: A- -> A
Mega Latias: B+ -> A-
Tangrowth: B -> B+
Feraligatr: B+ -> B
Crawdaunt: B- -> B
Magneton: B- -> C
Alomomola: C+ -> B-
Zygarde: C- -> C+
Hoopa-C: C -> Unranked
Crobat: D -> Unranked
Mega Latios: D -> Unranked
Blissey: D -> C-
Jellicent: D -> C-
Umbreon: Unranked -> D
Xatu: Unranked -> D
Ok so time for a few explanations. We've placed Mega Latias in A- for the time being, but think that it going to A is still a solid discussion point. Upon reviewing some reactions to a Mega Altaria drop I decided to hold off on doing it and let people have a chance to discuss it first, although we did all agree it could probably drop now.
Magneton just doesn't have a very large niche where Weavile's sorta lost some luster and plenty of teams have Talonflame checks already. Really outspeeding Torn-T and Scarftar I guess lol, but Magnezone is basically just way better. Zygarde really just isn't bad on the level of low C rank stuff since it does have DD and ESpeed, good typing and bulk too. Not a super viable mon but we felt it deserved a bump.
As you can see we've started our lower rank cleanup to some degree, so here are some things from that:
Crobat is honestly just bad. No reason to use it.. another Defogger that loses to common Defog beaters like Bisharp, Weavile and Ttar. Really has no niche.
Hoopa-C is honestly just irrelevant when Hoopa-U is available. Mega Latios is pretty similar, this is basically just a formality.
Jellicent and Blissey aren't really D rank bad just in the sense that they can fit into a few teams where you don't really have to specifically build around them unlike Shedinja or Meloetta. Blissey being a pretty good Manaphy answer is nice, although Mana's died down its still a big threat to stall
Umbreon's seen some usage as a special wall on some stall teams and for good reason - its typing gives it neutrality to a ton of things and it does have some absurd bulk. Foul Play + Synchronize + its typing being the main niche over Clefable/clerics really.
Xatu is honestly not very good but Magic Bounce is just one of those abilities. Primarily ranked because it can be pretty annoying in tandem with another Magic Bounce user like Diancie. That core in particular applies a lot of pressure to opposing teams in the sense that Xatu is often the obvious switch-in but Diancie can come in on mind games more often than on other teams. T-Wave and U-turn give it pretty cool utility.
Discussion:
Weavile: A+ -> A
Mega Altaria: A -> A-
Mega Medicham: A -> A-
Mega Latias: A- -> A
Starmie: A- -> A
Raikou: A- -> B+
Klefki: A- -> B+
Amoonguss: B+ -> A-
Mew: A- -> B+
Gyarados: A- -> B+
Togekiss: B+ -> B
Mamoswine: B+ -> B
Reuniclus: B -> B+
Entei: C+ -> B-
Empoleon: B- -> C+
Not really gonna go into the discussion slate much. Just keep in mind that stuff like a Weavile drop may be too soon but it's time to acknowledge that its time in the sun is kinda over and discuss where it's really at in the metagame now.
brb updating OP
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weavile is still a 'mon that just shits on teams, generally the faster ones, and sd weavile breaks with ease. multiple coverage options too, so keep it where it is.
mega altaria's typing is cute, but hazards and status which it is fortunately going to be taking frequently, put it on a timer if you dd or something can switch in for free if you roost. i think this is mainly due to its sad speed tier leaving it outpaced. i really like the offensive dd sets, so a- is a possibility.
medicham + rotom + garchomp? strong af and basically anything that gives it free switch ins is gg man. sableye is a piece of shit, but it is a for that reason. not a- material.
mega latias is pretty hot, but i would say its viability is with the twave + reflect type sets. calm mind sets are mediocre to be honest. could rise but idk.
starmie is simply a bad defensive spinner lol. you can't switch into to common rockers and even sdef toxic tran can beat you one on one putting your other mons in danger just to remove hazards. offensive suffers with longevity so magic bounce + offensive starmie is good control because of the mind games, but using it as your sole spinner? nah, i'd keep it where it is.
raikou is kind of ass right now. personally find specs as its best set right now.
amoonguss is hot shit man and i 100% support a rise for this god. dual powder, clear smog, checking so many damn threats while forcing switch ins to stale mates because of its unpredictability? av is another cash set too. i love this 'mon a lot. probably my favorite in ou outside of magnezone.
empoleon is fine where it is. has a huge niche checking latis, azu (sp is kind of non existent), and fills huge niche on offense with shuca sets, and the slower offenses like chople for m-gard. good typing and coverage. i like it.
not commenting on anything else because either a) have never used it or b) don't want someone mindlessly quoting my ass. these opinions are based off my experience. i didn't put out any facts, just the things i noticed when i put these in battle.
mega altaria's typing is cute, but hazards and status which it is fortunately going to be taking frequently, put it on a timer if you dd or something can switch in for free if you roost. i think this is mainly due to its sad speed tier leaving it outpaced. i really like the offensive dd sets, so a- is a possibility.
medicham + rotom + garchomp? strong af and basically anything that gives it free switch ins is gg man. sableye is a piece of shit, but it is a for that reason. not a- material.
mega latias is pretty hot, but i would say its viability is with the twave + reflect type sets. calm mind sets are mediocre to be honest. could rise but idk.
starmie is simply a bad defensive spinner lol. you can't switch into to common rockers and even sdef toxic tran can beat you one on one putting your other mons in danger just to remove hazards. offensive suffers with longevity so magic bounce + offensive starmie is good control because of the mind games, but using it as your sole spinner? nah, i'd keep it where it is.
raikou is kind of ass right now. personally find specs as its best set right now.
amoonguss is hot shit man and i 100% support a rise for this god. dual powder, clear smog, checking so many damn threats while forcing switch ins to stale mates because of its unpredictability? av is another cash set too. i love this 'mon a lot. probably my favorite in ou outside of magnezone.
empoleon is fine where it is. has a huge niche checking latis, azu (sp is kind of non existent), and fills huge niche on offense with shuca sets, and the slower offenses like chople for m-gard. good typing and coverage. i like it.
not commenting on anything else because either a) have never used it or b) don't want someone mindlessly quoting my ass. these opinions are based off my experience. i didn't put out any facts, just the things i noticed when i put these in battle.
Ok, hele we go. I haven't made one of these posts in a while, but I've been wanting to get into this stuff so lets get it.
I'll try go over as many of the discussion points as I can, or at least all the ones I care about.
I only chose to talk about stuff that I had personal experience with. I'll leave other people to comment on stuff like Empoleon, Entei, and Mamoswine.
This post is a bit of a clusterfuck, and not that well worded, sorry :[
I know this isn't a Clair-esque post, but it's one of my first ones, so cut me a bit of slack D: Hopefully my opinion is well expressed, and everything makes sense.
Also sorry if this was long, but once I start writing on something, I kinda just keep writing until I'm done, sometimes it gets a bit long for no reason.
I'll try go over as many of the discussion points as I can, or at least all the ones I care about.
I don't think the Weavile drop is premature, I think it should be in A right now. If you look at the comparison between A, and A+. A+ hosts offensive Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, Latios, and Azumarill. Wheras A hosts Mega Charizard Y, Gengar, Serperior.
The trend here being that one subrank collects all the most potent, and dangerous offensive threats in the game, and one hosts all of the Pokemon who are massive threats in their own right, but not quite at that same level (it's apparent something like Gengar or Mega Charizard Y are just a slight notch below Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, or Excadrill). Basically all you have to do here is ask which camp Weavile better fits in to, and it seems pretty obvious it's the A rank. There is no way that Weavile fits onto the level of Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, or Azumarill, and instead fits much more at home with the effectiveness of the Pokemon listed in the A subrank. I think its as simple as that.
The trend here being that one subrank collects all the most potent, and dangerous offensive threats in the game, and one hosts all of the Pokemon who are massive threats in their own right, but not quite at that same level (it's apparent something like Gengar or Mega Charizard Y are just a slight notch below Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, or Excadrill). Basically all you have to do here is ask which camp Weavile better fits in to, and it seems pretty obvious it's the A rank. There is no way that Weavile fits onto the level of Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, or Azumarill, and instead fits much more at home with the effectiveness of the Pokemon listed in the A subrank. I think its as simple as that.
Yeah this thing needs to drop too. This thing dropped off so far from the time when it was arguably suspect worthy, and in my opinion, it should keep dropping. Every team packs multiple answers to this thing, from Talonflame to Amoonguss to Clefable to Ferrothorn, almost every team has reliable counterplay for Mega Altaria. You also have to keep in mind that even with Pixilate, 110 Attack just isn't that strong, and Mega Altaria misses out on so many kills due to lack of power:
+1 252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 226-266 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 219-258 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 318-375 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (37.5% chance after Rocks)
Also, I'm a firm believer that Amoonguss should rise. I think the splashability of Amoonguss onto pretty much every sand build, as well as another 30-40% of generic balance builds wanting to take advantage of Amoonguss doesnt bode well for Mega Altaria's future. I think the drop is warranted.
+1 252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 226-266 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 219-258 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 318-375 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (37.5% chance after Rocks)
Also, I'm a firm believer that Amoonguss should rise. I think the splashability of Amoonguss onto pretty much every sand build, as well as another 30-40% of generic balance builds wanting to take advantage of Amoonguss doesnt bode well for Mega Altaria's future. I think the drop is warranted.
As an avid Mega Latias user, this thing definitely deserves to be A. The pure utility of this Pokemon to wall so many massive threats to balance and semistall (Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, Gliscor, Mega Manectric, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Life Orb Tornadus) is simply unmatched by any other Pokemon in the game. Seriously, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that isn't an Electric/Steel type that can wall LO Torn.
BoltBeam coverage will always be very hard to switch into, hitting almost everything neutrally, and when combined with Mega Latias' Clefable-like ability to spread paralysis, I can't see any reason why this Pokemon shouldn't go to A. Calm Mind BoltBeam also gives Mega Latias a better matchup vs some more defensive builds where Mega Latias' ungodly high Speed for a wall is already enough, and Thunder Wave isn't needed
BoltBeam coverage will always be very hard to switch into, hitting almost everything neutrally, and when combined with Mega Latias' Clefable-like ability to spread paralysis, I can't see any reason why this Pokemon shouldn't go to A. Calm Mind BoltBeam also gives Mega Latias a better matchup vs some more defensive builds where Mega Latias' ungodly high Speed for a wall is already enough, and Thunder Wave isn't needed
Nope, this shouldn't be A. To be fair I might be a bit biased on this one seeming that I like to use a lot of defensive builds with Pokemon like Mega Latias, Scarf Tyranitar, Clefable, CM Slowbro etc. But my opinion on this can only be from my experience, and in my experience, Starmie just isn't that good.
The defensive variant has little to no offensive presence outside of Scald burns, and whilst is does reliably spin on Heatran, and Hippowdon, Hippo, and Stealth Rock Heatran are both seeming to be on a bit of a decline (Heatran is just as popular, but Stallbreaker, and more offensive variants of Heatran seem to be being used over the SpD variants), and Starmie sees little utility outside of being able to spin on those 2. Spinning on Garchomp often means taking 29%, and then being shuffled out for ~31%. At 50% defensive Starmie can't even come in on Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump, it's just not sturdy enough defensively. The defensive variant is even walled by SpD Talon, so it's not like it's that hard to play around the defensive Starmie if your matchup isn't great.
Without Twave it's setup fodder for things like Mega Charizard X. Without Psyshock, Sub or RestTalk Keldeo could beat it, without Toxic, SpDef Talonflame, and CM Slowbro can beat it. And every defensive variant is setup fodder for Clefable. This Pokemon has always been a bit overrated imo.
As for the offensive variant, a bit more threatening, but also more easily Pursuit trapped. Thunder Wave is also a bigger problem for the offensive variant. Lastly, it's pretty easy for almost every playstyle to trade with offensive Starmie at worst. Weavile or Mega Lopunny beat it outright 1v1, and something with even just decent bulk should be able to take 1 hit from Starmie's measly 100 base SpA, and Starmie is so frail, without investment it's basically OHKOd by anything.
The defensive variant has little to no offensive presence outside of Scald burns, and whilst is does reliably spin on Heatran, and Hippowdon, Hippo, and Stealth Rock Heatran are both seeming to be on a bit of a decline (Heatran is just as popular, but Stallbreaker, and more offensive variants of Heatran seem to be being used over the SpD variants), and Starmie sees little utility outside of being able to spin on those 2. Spinning on Garchomp often means taking 29%, and then being shuffled out for ~31%. At 50% defensive Starmie can't even come in on Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump, it's just not sturdy enough defensively. The defensive variant is even walled by SpD Talon, so it's not like it's that hard to play around the defensive Starmie if your matchup isn't great.
Without Twave it's setup fodder for things like Mega Charizard X. Without Psyshock, Sub or RestTalk Keldeo could beat it, without Toxic, SpDef Talonflame, and CM Slowbro can beat it. And every defensive variant is setup fodder for Clefable. This Pokemon has always been a bit overrated imo.
As for the offensive variant, a bit more threatening, but also more easily Pursuit trapped. Thunder Wave is also a bigger problem for the offensive variant. Lastly, it's pretty easy for almost every playstyle to trade with offensive Starmie at worst. Weavile or Mega Lopunny beat it outright 1v1, and something with even just decent bulk should be able to take 1 hit from Starmie's measly 100 base SpA, and Starmie is so frail, without investment it's basically OHKOd by anything.
tl;dr If ur Raikou isn't CM, it's ass.
I've been preaching this in the OU room for ages, Raikou just isn't that good, and definitely deserves to be dropped. I don't really know what to say, Raikou just doesn't do anything. Its speed tier isn't good enough to where it can break common offense builds, yet its bulk also isnt good enough that it trades well vs balance. If there's a Hippo present, Raikou is completely deadweight for the entirety of the match, and even if there isn't, there's just too many splashable Pokemon for every playstyle that can effectively deal with Raikou. Stall carries Chansey, Unaware Clef, SpD Drill, Ferrothorn, Hippo, and more balanced/offensive builds carry Tyranitar, Mega Venusaur, Weavile, SD Talonflame, Mega Lopunny, Latios, Scarf Drill, or even just priority users like Bisharp, and Breloom. I'm not really going to say much more about Raikou, I just don't like it as a Pokemon at all. Please drop.
I've been preaching this in the OU room for ages, Raikou just isn't that good, and definitely deserves to be dropped. I don't really know what to say, Raikou just doesn't do anything. Its speed tier isn't good enough to where it can break common offense builds, yet its bulk also isnt good enough that it trades well vs balance. If there's a Hippo present, Raikou is completely deadweight for the entirety of the match, and even if there isn't, there's just too many splashable Pokemon for every playstyle that can effectively deal with Raikou. Stall carries Chansey, Unaware Clef, SpD Drill, Ferrothorn, Hippo, and more balanced/offensive builds carry Tyranitar, Mega Venusaur, Weavile, SD Talonflame, Mega Lopunny, Latios, Scarf Drill, or even just priority users like Bisharp, and Breloom. I'm not really going to say much more about Raikou, I just don't like it as a Pokemon at all. Please drop.
HELL YES AMOONGUSS SHOULD BE S RANK IMO JAJAJA.
Ok but for real I definitely feel like Amoonguss should be a subrank above stuff like Tangrowth, and I definitely feel like it deserves A- rank. Amoonguss is literally the epitome of a splashable Pokemon. A fantastic Keldeo check, that also deals with tons of threats to balance such as Mega Altaria, Clefable, Breloom, Banded Azumarill, and Serperior is something that is hard to match, and B+ is definitely underselling Amoonguss. Combine Amoonguss' ability to check the aforementioned Pokemon, Amoonguss is a great Pokemon on the most common type of offense right now, sand, which only further strengthens Amoonguss' case for A-.
It only keeps getting better. It has Spore, which a fantastic tool to give free turns to Offense, and Stall. Free turns to spread status, or remove hazards can be very important for stall, and free turns to allow for setup on offense/sand can be very useful too.
It also gets Regen, so it never has to lose momentum by recovering. What more do you want?! Amoonguss is my bae, and should be A- for sure [:
Ok but for real I definitely feel like Amoonguss should be a subrank above stuff like Tangrowth, and I definitely feel like it deserves A- rank. Amoonguss is literally the epitome of a splashable Pokemon. A fantastic Keldeo check, that also deals with tons of threats to balance such as Mega Altaria, Clefable, Breloom, Banded Azumarill, and Serperior is something that is hard to match, and B+ is definitely underselling Amoonguss. Combine Amoonguss' ability to check the aforementioned Pokemon, Amoonguss is a great Pokemon on the most common type of offense right now, sand, which only further strengthens Amoonguss' case for A-.
It only keeps getting better. It has Spore, which a fantastic tool to give free turns to Offense, and Stall. Free turns to spread status, or remove hazards can be very important for stall, and free turns to allow for setup on offense/sand can be very useful too.
It also gets Regen, so it never has to lose momentum by recovering. What more do you want?! Amoonguss is my bae, and should be A- for sure [:
This post is a bit of a clusterfuck, and not that well worded, sorry :[
I know this isn't a Clair-esque post, but it's one of my first ones, so cut me a bit of slack D: Hopefully my opinion is well expressed, and everything makes sense.
Also sorry if this was long, but once I start writing on something, I kinda just keep writing until I'm done, sometimes it gets a bit long for no reason.
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