Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

Mannat

is a Tutoris a Community Contributor
Won SPL Predictions
I've got a nomination of my own after playing around with this mon a ton.
--->A-
My post a few pages back couldn't be more off the mark, Manectric is a fucking demon to face with your standard Lati/Lando-t/Steel offenses and can smash through most offensive teams with ease. 90% of offensive teams that I see these days either rely on Latios and/or a scarfed Lando-T to check Manectric, and that's just laughable. While Roost Latios is a pretty solid Mane check, if it's the only thing stopping a Pokemon from overwhelming your team, then that's laughable. First of all, Manectric can just Volt out into a mon that threatens Lati out and force it to switch, which means that it gets 2HKOed by HP ice upon switch in, so lol @ having that as your primary Manectric check. If you have a team with mons that Lati can roost up vs, or your opponent elects to use Latias over Latios, then you can just run one of our Pursuit users since they are both super splashable on offensive teams and can open the floodgates for Mane to bust through offense with ease, and mitigates the need to predict Lati switch ins with HP Ice. Aside from that offense, Manectric actually does really well vs birdspam, and its speed tier is critical vs those teams because unlike Zapdos, it doesn't need to take a +3 Ice Beam from Manaphy, it doesn't need to take a Banded Flare Blitz from Talon, and it doesn't need to worry about Pinsir packing random coverage moves for it, and beating birdspam is extremely good for an offensive threat these days. Obviously Manectric doesn't do very well vs fatter teams, but the spikes stacking teams that Mane is usually on have an excellent matchup vs stall, and there's plenty of offensive Pokemon in the A-ranks that are cheeks against stall (M-Gross, Azu, Excadrill), so its weakness to stall really shouldn't stop it from rising. Obviously Mane has its flaws, but they're not enough to stop it from being ranked in A- when Mega Latias, Terrakion, and Gliscor are there imo.
 

Vertex

my beautiful dark twisted curry
you are over exaggerating on so many different levels my man

on paper, manectric is a beast because of its coverage, but it's a completely different story in practice. it's completely useless against stall and most balance. this is bad considering megas themselves are the most common ways of beating these playstyles and you used your mega slot for manectric. any team that hazard stacks is going to screw over manectric. you can't forget the omnipresence of tyranitar which makes manectric not only useless but a liability since your opponent knows your only play is to volt switch or double. obviously, offense is going to be playing cards since they will lose if they can't keep stealth rock on the field. lopunny is as much as a threat to offense than manectric is.

aerodactyl is better than manectric in cleaning offense (birds too), not to mention it can pick some of its counters which makes it a stupid 'mon to play around. it is also a reason to why mega aerodactyl teams see a lot of success these days. mega aerodactyl can pressure balance with its wide array of coverage or use of toxic / taunt.

this is coming from me who gives manectric a higher ranking than most. it is closer to dropping than rising.
 

Mannat

is a Tutoris a Community Contributor
Won SPL Predictions
you are over exaggerating on so many different levels my man

on paper, manectric is a beast because of its coverage, but it's a completely different story in practice. it's completely useless against stall and most balance. this is bad considering megas themselves are the most common ways of beating these playstyles and you used your mega slot for manectric. any team that hazard stacks is going to screw over manectric. you can't forget the omnipresence of tyranitar which makes manectric not only useless but a liability since your opponent knows your only play is to volt switch or double. obviously, offense is going to be playing cards since they will lose if they can't keep stealth rock on the field. lopunny is as much as a threat to offense than manectric is.

aerodactyl is better than manectric in cleaning offense (birds too), not to mention it can pick some of its counters which makes it a stupid 'mon to play around. it is also a reason to why mega aerodactyl teams see a lot of success these days. mega aerodactyl can pressure balance with its wide array of coverage or use of toxic / taunt.

this is coming from me who gives manectric a higher ranking than most. it is closer to dropping than rising.
I already said that it sucks against fatter playstyles, but there's plenty of nonmega breakers like Crawdaunt, Keldeo, LO Torn-T, etc. so the argument that the mega needs to be good against stall frankly is a stupid one, especially when Mega Zam is in the A ranks lol. Hazard stacking mons are actually pressured really hard by Mane since bulky grounds get smashed by HP ice, ferro/keys/skarm all die to overheat/electric STAB, and Heatran just gets volted out on anyways, so its pretty hard to set up hazards vs Mane, and being weak to spikes stacking is lol as an argument since spikes stacking shreds so many Pokemon that it's insane and not justifiable to say its a reason why something shouldn't rise. TTar being common is also an argument that you can use vs Latios, and that thing is sitting in A+ lol, and one mon that isn't even top 5 in usage really shouldn't dictate whether something is in A- of all ranks. Lop and Aero being good threats to offense as well is just an overlap of roles lol, Lop loses to birdspam and MAero is liable to being worn down since it's a contact attacker/weak to rocks. Obviously all three mons have their own flaws as anti-offense mons, but Mane's aren't glaring enough to leave it out of A- imo.
 
Mega Lopunny should move up because it is a great mon with high speed, high attack, and no mon resists it's duel stabs. This mon can wreck teams and it can just run 4 attacks, Return does a lot of damage, High Jump Kick is insane, Ice Punch can kill Lando-T and the Latis, and Fake Out lets it get chip damage along with letting it entering the higher speed with taking damage.

Mega Charizard X should move up because it is the dragon dancer in the tier because it gets 100 speed and 130 attack along with Tough Claws make it a force to reckoned with it has 111 defense allowing to run a defensive set that can use the moves Toxic/Will-o-Wisp and Roost while also doing damage.

Mega Metagross could see a rise as it has a nice speed tier amazing offensive stats and great defensive stats but it functions as a physical attacker and it has good coverage but it is held back by sucker punch and pursuit. I have mixed feelings on this one but I am leaning on the rise side as it can take a few hits.

I think Kyurem could see a rise because it can do one thing better then Kyurem-B and that is run a specs set with 130 base spatk instead of 120 spatk and Kyurem has good coverage in Draco Meteor, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Focus Blast/Flash Cannon.
 

Martin

gamer boy
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
A lot of my reasoning may be kinda fucked but i don't care much so im gonna post anyway. Feel free to disagree provided it's for the right reasons 'cause my personal VR has a lot of discrepencies relative to this one due to how I personally play.

Mega Charizard X-->A+: Agree
Zard-X is straight-up AIDS and I could honestly see it in S alongside Clef but maybe that's just me. It's defo better than everything in A+ imo but I could see it in high A+ as opposed to S 'cause methods of trying to beat it are almost entirely inconsistent, situational or flat-out bad. Torny's p. AIDS too and that's not in S which is why I'm a bit eh about it. It's the best mega imo and A+ at the absolute lowest.

Mega Lopunny-->A+: Agree If you had asked me this time a month or two ago I would have disagreed, but with me having both used and faced adamant MLop since then it is just so fucking overwhelming to face for so many teams. Ice Punch is seriously ass 'cause all of it's best partners maul Lando anyway and the types of builds that I often find myself running it on tend to not give Lando many opportunities to really do anything (especially with more and more running scarf) and adamant double prio just completely rips certain teams to shreds to the point where this thing is seriously scary to see in team preview and is generally p. hard to actually prep well for when your best defensive answers are either easy to ware down (Lando-T etc.) or lose to adamant variants (calm Clef etc.).

Mega Latias-->B+: Agree I've talked about this before so I'll keep it brief. It's never given me any trouble, and it's never really put in any work for me. It's passive at +0 and it lacks any form of utility like other CM users typically have (Magic Guard, T-Wave and SpA drops for Clef; Scald, Pressure, SubTect and Roar for Suicune; Scald for Slowbro/Slowking/Mega Slowbro etc.) and it doesn't really have any offensive presence without setup like Reuniclus does. It just kinda sits there, and it has a host of issues ranging from susceptibility to status because of the lack of leftovers or a healing/immunity ability like Regen/Magic Guard to the aforementioned passiveness that just make it a pain to work with a lot of the time. To put it over Gluemon Supreme™ Amoonguss is just straight-up wrong as is putting it above actually good 'mons like Magnezone and Suicune. Also if you think it's a full subrank better than base Latias I would have to respectfully disagree with you 'cause I think that the difference in viability is always being heavily overstated, although that may just be me being weird again.

This last paragraph ended up being a clusterfuck of thoughts/opinions some of which are kinda debatable/out there now that I've actually written it so bare with me. I don't feel too strongly about these ones barring Cobalion and Kyu so if you argue I prolly won't refute.

I don't really have strong opinions on the rest of the slate other than Kyurem who really needs to rise 'cause it's actually good. How much better Kyu-B is than Kyu-N is really kinda trivial and extremely overstated a lot of the time 'cause aside from electric coverage (not that it matters much when all of it's targets barring Azu and fucking Empoleon aren't coming in on DracoBeam coverage anyway) and the ability to go phys/mixed Kyu loses literally nothing of note relative to it as a breaker. I agree with everything in AM's post barring the Diancie drop 'cause Dian is still super good and trends aren't necessarily all that anti-Dian, and if by devils advocate viewpoint he meant a Tran drop I can kinda get behind it given that a lot of the stuff it checks carries coverage for it nowadays but all in all I'm completely neutral on it and can see cases for both ways. MMan is utter trash please don't rise that crap I've tried using it so many times in the past few months and it's never failed to disappoint me and has always ended up being replaced by something that is actually good. I'd argue it needs to drop if anything 'cause 2/3 or more of B is better than it anyway. I think Duggy is better than literally everything in B- and even some of the things in B (MAlt and Klefki are ass; it's also better than Mega Man but that shit's way too high as-is lmao) and I think it could honestly rise to B as opposed to B-, but once again that may just be me being weird. Cobalion's too low and to call it worse than anything in any C rank other than stuff slated to rise is insulting to Cobalion's viability. I think it should be B- but I guess C+ would be fine although it is easily in the top 3 'mons in that subrank at absolute worst.
Rise Kyu to B-

Agree with AM about all barring dian and a neutrality on tran.

Drop MMan to B

Duggy could rise further to B 'cause it's better than all of B- and some of B anyway imo

Rise Cobalion to B- or C+
 
Last edited:
I disagree with Dugtrio being better than all of B- for the simple reason that Hydreigon is in B- and it's a monster right now. p2 or someone brought it up once and I couldn't agree more, specs hydra kills everything with Azu being the only real "switchin" and it gets smashed by specs flash cannon. The fact that the defensive lando and rotom core (aka bog standard voltturn) is really common helps a lot bc common stuff on those teams (keld, lati) get smashed by draco/flash cannon. If there's an argument for duggy to rise, there's a much bigger argument for Hydreigon to rise.
 
Zard X is just ridiculous lol and should go to at least A+. It can get past its would-be checks really easily since +0 Flare Blitz still does a lot to defensive Lando-T and the like while scarfed gets outsped and shitstomped after a bit of prior damage. Rotom-W and Mega Diancie fall into the same category (in fact rotom-w is setup bait lol). Azumarill's drop in usage also has a positive effect.
 
I got ninjad by Gary so my points are a bit different, although I'm fine with making the moves mentioned in the new slate there even if I don't agree with M-Venu.I really feel like this is an exaggeration in regards to Lando-T especially calling it the strongest mon in the tier when it's usage is reflected to p2s point in keeping arguably way more dangerous stuff at bay, and the strongest mon is Clef while some Torn-T, even Weavile, are more offensively constraining on team-building than Lando-T will ever be.

The numerous amounts of counterplay possible to Lando-T on any given team without too much effort is enough to keep it at A+, and that should be the main point when trying to argue its placement. I don't like the perception of justifying usage rate as the indicator of viability with the exception of lower ranked mons, which are more keen on showing an improvement or slightly worse performance over the duration of a meta shift. For the sake of example you have a M-Scizor to S rank club when its WCOP winrate was kind of awful, its ladder presence is a bit more match up based these days, but I don't think anybody would comfortably sit here and say it's not a legitimate threat in need of preparation, accounting other numerous factors for the low W/L.

Putting Lando-T above Torn-T and Latios is a bit chuckle worthy to, at least in my eyes. These two mons put a lot more constraint in the team-builder phase than Lando-T does to me personally. I value viability threads that acknowledge more the threat management side of things than just throwing up glue mons as high as possible and assuming they're super difficult to handle or function in the way people describe. A good example is Heatran, how in theory its this fantastic rocker and provides lots of useful traits, but over the couple of months the Latios have been running more Surf and a telegraphed Heatran switch in can be easy to play on, putting it into 2HKO range or threaten it out with Lopunny, an amazing mon.
I completely disagree with your logic.

"These two mons put a lot more constraint in the team-builder phase than Lando-T does to me personally" - Why does the team building phase matter more than the actual battle? I don't care that they make me run checks to them so long as those checks actually work. What I do care about is what happens in the battle where Landorus-Therian offers utility far beyond every other Pokemon in the tier (bar Clefable). Yeah, you don't have to run dedicated counters to it but that's because it's not an offensive Pokemon. It's a support Pokemon who checks half the tier, sets Rocks, removes items, pivots ridiculously well, and despite not being an "offensive" Pokemon, it still hits Really hard. Considering the fact that every physical attacker is forced to run an Ice-type move, I'd also say that it has a pretty major effect on team building, too.

I think Landorus-Therian is absolutely worthy of S Rank. The idea that the best Pokemon are the most threatening ones is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter how big of a threat a Pokemon is if it doesn't help the team achieve its overall goal. Landorus-Therian has been the cornerstone of a vast majority of the best offensive and balanced teams in this generation. Why? Because it's more than a "threat". It's a Pokemon who fulfils a plethora of roles that nothing else can compete with.
 
I'm no pokégod, but I thought I'd give my opinion on some of the mons on the slate.

Zard-X to A+: Agree. This thing still holds the title of the best DD sweeper in the current meta, and it can use different sets to support teammates and beat its checks and counters if needed. SD turns Zards-X into the most fearsome physical mon in the tier, and WoW punishes the opponent for switching to a counter that isn't Heatran. I actually think Zard-X might be worthy of the S rank, it has the power and the variety that an S rank mon should have. The only reason that it might seem weak is because teams always prepare for it, more than any other Mega, if you look at some common trends in the meta.

Mega Lopunny to A+: Agree. Lopunny is powerful and fast, and while it doesn't have the same variety that Zard-X can have, it can run different moves depending on the rest of the team. Its dual STAB combo is walled by a very small number of mons, especially due to Scrappy, which removes the possibility of Ghost types switching in.

Mega Metagross to A: Agree. It's not as dominant as it once was, but it's still a very dangerous mon that will wreck unprepared teams. It doesn't matter how much the meta shifts, a mon that can take and deal some serious physical damage, and still have good speed, will always be good.

I haven't had much experience with the other mons, except for one:

Kyurem to B-: Agree. It was put to good use in OTL Cycle 2 as a Specs Wallbreaker that put a ton of pressure on many teams, due to it's powerful STAB combo being particularly hard to tank. Something this powerful gives it more than a simple niche, in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
I completely disagree with your logic.

"These two mons put a lot more constraint in the team-builder phase than Lando-T does to me personally" - Why does the team building phase matter more than the actual battle? I don't care that they make me run checks to them so long as those checks actually work. What I do care about is what happens in the battle where Landorus-Therian offers utility far beyond every other Pokemon in the tier (bar Clefable). Yeah, you don't have to run dedicated counters to it but that's because it's not an offensive Pokemon. It's a support Pokemon who checks half the tier, sets Rocks, removes items, pivots ridiculously well, and despite not being an "offensive" Pokemon, it still hits Really hard. Considering the fact that every physical attacker is forced to run an Ice-type move, I'd also say that it has a pretty major effect on team building, too.

I think Landorus-Therian is absolutely worthy of S Rank. The idea that the best Pokemon are the most threatening ones is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter how big of a threat a Pokemon is if it doesn't help the team achieve its overall goal. Landorus-Therian has been the cornerstone of a vast majority of the best offensive and balanced teams in this generation. Why? Because it's more than a "threat". It's a Pokemon who fulfils a plethora of roles that nothing else can compete with.
I am not going to extend myself into the ranking itself but do want to point out that you seem to misread the quote. Essentially he was trying to say landT puts less constraints on teambuilding than thorT or latios yet it also offers less a threat than the two, quite the opposite of what you are supposingly argueing against.

And btw philosophically, constraints on teambuilding absolutely matters when it comes to ranking a pokemon imo, for the more constraints you have the more likely that you will be forced into using sub optimal pokemon to complete your team.

Granted most top pokemon have strong complements in other top pokemon which often makes the constrain irrelevant for high rank pokemon. However situations do exist when a team with 5 top tier pokemon end up resorting to a weak pokemon for their 6th member, which is btw how Donphan made OU last gen as a weak pokemon with a unique niche to fill out a couple of the commonly unfilled roles all at once.
 
Landorus-T to S: Agree

Blanket checks have always been extremely useful, and the utility of a team member being able to both set up rocks and pivot around - all while being a blanket check, is extremely useful and almost unique to Landorus-T. I believe the only other viable OU set which can both pivot and set rocks is Jirachi's, and Landorus is the blanket check with the bigger blanket due to Jirachi's typing and lack of Intimidate. I'm not trying to say that Jirachi and Landorus-T are supposed to fill the same roles or check the same things, because they aren't. I'm showing how Landrous-T is unique in its position.

I mean, Landorus-T is practically half of the entire OU metagame, and easily one of the most, if not the most, splashable 'mons. It completely excels in terms of role compression, second only to Clefable, and it supplements the fact that it is quite easily the best rocks setter in the meta with its extensive defensive and offensive utility. It's not a star itself, or something to exactly strike fear into the hearts of your enemies (except double dance, which easily can), but it's just so useful for so many purposes. The high or low viability of many 'mons in OU is only often due to the extensive work Landorus is guaranteed to put in almost every game and the influence it has on the meta.

Mega Metagross to A: Agree. Don't have much to say about this one other than the fact that being a fast offensive powerhouse of a Steel type with good bulk to resist Fairy attacks is just incredibly good.
 
Last edited:

false

fuck a hater bitch
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Community Leaderis a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Leader
I've already touched on stuff like Mega Latias, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Venusaur so I'll just talk about the new stuff.

Before I start off, I just want to address one point I've seen a few times already. I feel that the argument 'Scarf Landorus is more common now and Charizard beats that' is a pretty flawed one when you consider that no one in their right mind packs a Choice Scarf Landorus on their team and calls it their Zard X check. Choice Scarf Landorus being used more commonly over recent times is certainly a positive for Mega Charizard X, but I just don't think its as big of a deal as many others are making it seem. If a Choice Scarf Landorus is your only Zard X check, you deserve to be losing to it.

The Pokemon in the A+ rank are the Pokemon that, in one form or another, hold the tier together and are the staples of the entirety of the ORAS OU metagame. Obviously just how much weight they hold varies, things like Landorus and Latios being the most influential. However, I don't think that anyone could argue that the likes of Rotom-W, Heatran, Keldeo, and Tyranitar are still massively influential metagame staples, and the faces of ORAS OU as a tier. As much as Mega Charizard X is super borked and kills everything and is really good, I'm not sure if anywhere near as defining as the other stuff in A+ right now.

I think that fact that ORAS OU is currently Landorus-T's tier is something that people don't give enough value to, and in my opinion is one of the main reason why Mega Charizard X still isn't as devastating as it once has been. When you consider the fact that A+ rank is home to the likes of Mega Diancie, Heatran, Keldeo, Landorus-T, and Tyranitar, whilst the A rank houses the likes of Azumarill, Excadrill, and Slowbro, you'll see that there's a plethora of massively viable and splashable Pokemon that put pressure onto Mega Charizard X, whilst also providing general role compression just because all the A and A+ Pokemon are fantastic. Also, whilst Jolly being the best nature is good for the Speed tier, and matchups against bulky offenses, it severely effects Mega Charizard X's matchup against bulkier teams. To give a few examples off the top of my head just from previous experience, Jolly +1 Earthquake has only a 25% chance to KO Choice Scarf Tyranitar, +1 Dragon Claw has an 18% chance to KO Keldeo, and +1 Flare Blitz has an 18% chance to KO Bold Clefable. These kind of numbers are important when you consider Mega Charizard X often requires hazard removal, meaning you often can't rely on Stealth Rock being up to turn those low rolls into better chances. It also doesn't often set up for free, and then is often forced to Flare Blitz into a Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Clefable, or Landorus-T which can leave it in range of being revenge killed. These are all definitely things people aren't recognising, or at least placing enough value on.

After seeing me say all this, you'd assume I'm happy for Mega Charizard X to stay in A, but no I'm actually ok for a rise. I just wanted to make a few points clear to the bunch of people saying 'omg zardx is so broken this thing could probably be S rank it kills everything how do u even beat it' because frankly that's just ridiculous. Mega Charizard X is good, but it's not that good. I'm ok with it rising to A+ though, it's definitely one of the most threatening megas in the game, and metagame trends such as Azu dropping CM Bro used over a status move, Zapdos becoming more popular, and Choice Scarf Excadrill being more common are all things that favour Mega Charizard X's resurgence.
Mega Lopunny is the best Fighting-type mega in the tier. For a hot minute people seemed to have this obsession with Mega Medicham and just couldn't stop talking about how good it is and how it has no switchins and how it kills everything, but Mega Lopunny just kept doing Mega Lopunny things and remained to be the staple for the offensive playstyle as a whole. Mega Lopunny's effectiveness is such that there are often times where it seems like if you're not using Mega Lopunny as your Fighting-type mega slot, you have to weigh the opportunity cost to see if it's really worth it. Mega Lopunny's unresisted, high base power dual STAB, and blistering Speed is such that there's really nothing that comes close to providing the role compression that it can provide for an offense team, doing things like revenge killing a large portion of the offensive metagame, something that no other Pokemon can claim to do with the same reliability that Mega Lopunny can.
I'm honestly clueless about this. Last time I said I was ok for a rise, but I wasn't even super sure about it then. I'm not sure much has changed for it, and I remain kinda unconvinced. I'm probably leaning towards it staying in A- for now just due to the fact that I've noticed in recent time that finding moveslots can be tough if you're trying to run a supportive move like Pursuit, which seems to be a common thing since fitting multiple other bulky Steels to check things like Latios and Mega Gardevoir can be sometimes tough on Mega Metagross builds. The standard double punch + Hammer Arm + Mash is still probably the best set, but then that set has trouble with Rotom-W. The increase in Dugtrio, as well as general bulky Waters, aren't super great for it either. I'm leaning towards stay, but I'm not particularly convinced either way.
Yeah this needs to rise. Its recently popular Choice Specs set should alone be enough to warrant a rise, but it also has that cool stallbreaker set which is still viable too. Kyurem closest counterpart is probably Hydreigon, and should jump 1-2 subranks to bunny hop inferior Pokemon such as Dragalge and Mega Sceptile to at least sit closer to it. Kyurem is obviously by no means perfect, its Stealth Rock weakness is only compounded by the fact that it already struggles to find switchin opportunities. The fact that it's somewhat more one dimensional as an attacker doesn't help either. However, it's massively outclasses the Pokemon of the C subrank which it currently sits in, and definitely deserves a rise.
I was actually going to nom this for S, but it looks like someone beat me to it. Rather than getting into the argument as to whether Landorus is as much of a threat as Clefable or whatever, I think this really can be simplified.

Landorus-T is the best Pokemon at performing roles which are necessary on almost every team, and is without a doubt the most valuable Pokemon to the metagame. Landorus holds the tier together. I don't think one could claim that any Pokemon would cause more of a shift in the metagame if it was removed than Landorus-T would. Its effect on the metagame might not be as great as Clefable's is, but it is without a doubt the most centralising blanket Pokemon that I've ever experienced in my entire time playing Pokemon. Nothing does what Landorus does as good as Landorus does it. Its the best in the game for a good reason, and needs to be recognised as such.
As many people probably know. I'm a big fan of Azelf, and the Colbur Berry set is genuinely fantastic as a lead. I nominated Azelf for a rise a while back and it got ignored. I don't think it can afford to be ignored again. It's the single best Pokemon in the ORAS OU metagame at performing the role of a lead, and has the tools to effectively get Stealth Rock vs anything. Whether it be HP Steel/Iron Tail or Skill Swap for Mega Diancie. Dazzling Gleam or Colbur Berry + Skill Swap for Mega Sableye. It works fantastically on those birdspam HO teams.

Fun fact: Colbur Berry Azelf lives a Choice Banded Crunch from Tyranitar + Sand, meaning you can still get off your explosion to soften it up (Sash obviously dies to Crunch + Sand). Colbur Azelf is literally so good.
 
I've already touched on stuff like Mega Latias, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Venusaur so I'll just talk about the new stuff.

Before I start off, I just want to address one point I've seen a few times already. I feel that the argument 'Scarf Landorus is more common now and Charizard beats that' is a pretty flawed one when you consider that no one in their right mind packs a Choice Scarf Landorus on their team and calls it their Zard X check. Choice Scarf Landorus being used more commonly over recent times is certainly a positive for Mega Charizard X, but I just don't think its as big of a deal as many others are making it seem. If a Choice Scarf Landorus is your only Zard X check, you deserve to be losing to it.
in an optimal world where zard-x checks are plenty, people wouldn't run rocks clef + landorus-t and call it a day. sadly, on more offensive teams, lando-t is like the only consistent zard-x check. an argument can be made for diancie and heatran, but both of those lose to earthquake zard-x. i don't think zard-x automatically beats teams that are structured like this (honestly anyone arguing that is just exaggerating like crazy), but it becomes quite difficult to play around, meaning zard will put a dent into your team if your opponent doesn't play like ass. the only things that check zard-x that fit on more offensive builds that run rocks clef + landorus-t are azumarill, thunder wave support, and priority. at this point, you're using 2 whole slots on your build to manage zard-x, and it's STILL able to easily punch huge holes in your team if you make the slightest mistake. that's sorta the issue here: zard-x exerts a crazy amount of pressure both in the teambuilder and in battle against so many teams.
The Pokemon in the A+ rank are the Pokemon that, in one form or another, hold the tier together and are the staples of the entirety of the ORAS OU metagame.
a lot of people bring up how A+ rank is all the staples of the tier, but that's just sorta coincidence... like of course the best pokemon in the tier are staple pokemon, but that doesn't mean some pokemon are just so threatening and powerful that they're still considered among the best in the tier even if they aren't staples. jirachi, for example, is a super awesome glue pokemon that fits on a variety of teams, checks a bunch of stuff, helps with serious role compression, etc., but it's A rank and not A+ rank... i'd personally say it's as splashable as some of the pokemon in A+ rank, but it's definitely not A+ rank material for a variety of reasons. point is that A+ isn't just "oh here are the staple pokemon"... it's more about "oh here are the best pokemon in the tier".

if you meant A+ is just "meta defining stuff", sorry in advance. didn't mean for this to be a callout post or something... i've just seen way too many people say "A+ is all the glue mons XD", and i personally disagree with that notion.
 
I endorse the move of Mega Venusaur down to B. Current metagame trends favor sand and BirdSpam currently. The former hinders Mega Venusaur's recovery with Synthesis and Mega Venusaur is pretty much useless against the latter. The popularity of Amoonguss and Tangrowth don't do Mega Venusaur any favors either. Amoonguss has access to Spore, Clear Smog to halt set up sweepers, and has access to the Regenerator ability which increases its survivability. Tangrowth has a diverse movepool, deals with prominent sand offense threat Excadrill with its Rocky Helmet set (252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 121-144 (30 - 35.8%) -- 35.9% chance to 3HKO), and also has access to Regenerator. Both Pokemon also don't require you to take up a Mega Slot which can be used towards a different mon such as Mega Sableye or Mega Charizard X. While Mega Venusaur does have perks such as Thick Fat and better offensive stats, Amoonguss and Tangrowth are better suited for the current meta than Mega Venusaur is which is why I would be okay with Mega Venusaur moving down to B.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributor

Is it just me or is Cobalion criminally under ranked? It obviously isn't the best choice for a fighting or steel type considering its inability to remotely dent stuff like Charizard and Talonflame, but it's able to compress many roles into one set and set itself far apart from its C- brethren in Conkeldurr and Cofagrigus (why is that thing even above D). It's got itself in a fairly comfortable speed tier, which allows to quickly set rocks and taunt the likes of Skarmory and Klefki, and it has favorable matchups against some of the tier's most threatening mons in Clefable, Tyranitar and Weavile. Its ability to pivot, check/counter specific threats and set up rocks or taunt is enough to justify a rise to at least C, though I don't think it should go any higher than C+.

As for the current slate, I don't really disagree with anything. Char X has risen back to fame as arguably the tier's most consistent and terrifying physical sweeper, and while it may not be as much of a "glue mon" in comparison to stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran it isn't hard to build a team around at all bar that rocks weakness, and its most common check in scarf Landorus won't be too much of a check after a dd boost or two. Mega Lopunny is simply just a powerhouse in the current meta, with unresisted STAB coverage, the perfect makings of a physical sweeper, and respectable bulk to live most things bar a super effective move from one of its checks (none of which can switch in), and overall has become more and more of a pain for team building. Mega Metagross is due for a rise too, since it matches up well against most of bird spam and can take hits when it needs to and sure as hell dish them out. Mega Latias is a bit too situational in that it either can put in serious work or just sit around and wait to die, and doesn't really pressure any builds enough to stay in A-, and idek why Mega Slowbro should even be used over its regular form (leftovers and regenerator is so much more precious than no critical hits). Next is Mega Venusaur, which while capable of doing some things as a bulky grass that Amoonguss and Tangrowth can't, is still a little hard to make a case for considering Amoonguss has regenerator and a 100% accurate sleep move, and when you figure that Tangrowth's higher defense and resistance to ground make it a generally better blanket check to sand teams with those cancerous Excadrills and Tyranitars running around. Lastly, we have Kyurem, which I think only warrants a rise to C+, simply because I wouldn't jump the gun on its viability since its Specs set was just recently discovered, though C is definitely understating the thing.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
A+--->S: Honestly I've kept quiet about my thoughts on this because most of the ranking team would probably disagree with me on this one but I also support Lando-T for S. While it may not be on Clefable's level, I think it would be pretty stupid to limit only Pokemon as stupid as Clefable to be S rank, because I highly doubt anything will ever compare for the rest of the gen. However, even with S rank's new higher standards, I think without question Lando-T fits the bill. Its ability to blanket check most physical threats as well as being one of the most consistent rockers in the tier makes it almost impossible not to fit it onto most teams. It's by far the most splashable Pokemon in the tier, it's a huge threat offensively and has a lot of utility defensively because of Intimidate, useful resistances/immunities, and can preform multiple different roles such as a sweeper, defensive or offensive rocker, and a revenge killer. Outside of stall it can fit on almost any team from offensive to fat, and it's so useful that you oftentimes have to ask yourself why you're not using Lando-T.

While Clefable is easily the most consistent Pokemon in the metagame, I'd say that Lando-T is by far the most meta defining. It never fails to get below 40% usage in almost any high level tour as well as ladder, and it keeps so much of the meta in check to a point where people have to start running some kind of lure for it otherwise they're going to have such a hard time breaking the defensive variants. Anything that's walled by Lando-T is at an automatic huge disadvantage every time it comes in because it loses you so much momentum; any free turn you give Lando-T is free rocks or a U-turn into a counterplay. With bird spam being so popular right now as well as Lopunny, Zard-X, and Scarf Exca rising in usage, Lando-T only seems to be getting more useful as the meta progresses. While Latios and Tornadus-T put more of a constraint on team building, Lando-T practically defines team building in ORAS because it's something that almost 50% of teams can't do without, and that's saying a lot.

A--->A-: Azumarill is just....not that great right now. It's very strong and has a great defensive typing, but the biggest problem with it is how much momentum it sucks from you. It's not a very fast Pokemon at all, and if it's locked into an attack that's not Jet there's a ton of things that can come in and force it out. As a wallbreaker it just faces so much competition for a team slot, and the only set I really like using anymore is Belly Drum because it's a great early game hole puncher or late game cleaner, but even then it still struggles when Mega Scizor is so common, Latios can live a Jet and revenge you, Rotom-W is very common, lots of faster priority users, etc. CB is just bad right now because it lets so many things set up on you and being locked into Jet versus a Mega Scizor, Serp, or Specs Latios is really bad. Its defensive typing is one of the biggest things going for it right now, but unfortunately because of its slow Speed and lack of recovery it's easily worn down and it can't really pivot into anything more than once, and it can easily be put in range of a +1 EQ from Zard-X or LO or Specs Psyshock from Latios. The recent rise in Zapdos is also a pain for it, because the phys def variants can eat up hits from it quite comfortably and I'm fairly certain with rocks off the field it can eat up a +6 Jet too. Not to mention phys def Growth is still a thing as well as Amoonguss and both heavily punish it.
 
Lando-t doesn't belong in S, it is really good but not meta defining. Blankets checks are nice but not worth of S. This nom has done before and has been rejected everytime so far because it doesn't define the meta
Yeah no, to say that the Pokemon which in all formats (tour, ladder), consistently has the highest usage in the tier isn't meta-defining is quite frankly ridiculous. I don't know what other parameters you could possibly want it to fulfil to be called meta-defining. It is quite literally the face of OU and has been for many, many months. Blanket checks (such as Clefable lol) in such a high-pressure and inflated meta are incredibly important, especially ones that provide the role compression that Lando does. FWIW, Lando has been S-rank before, not that it matters, because that was then and this is now.

I really do think that this is one of those cases in which usage and viability shouldn't be separated by too much. Lando's ridiculous usage is obviously indicative of the crucial role it plays in the meta for so many teams and archetypes. It's actually difficult to build a team, look at it and not think "eh, Lando". It brings so fucking much to the table in one slot that it's hard to turn down.
 
Mega metagross A- -----> A rank: I personally agree with this. Mega Metagross in the current meta game does not lack 4MSS while having VERY few found counters. Mega Scizor is very popular yes, but mega metagross destroys just about every other team that doesn't have a mega scizor or Quagsire on it. The 4 attacks bolt beam set destroys so many balance cores it is incredible. It just dismantles fire water grass cores like ferrothorn + Heatran + bulky water or Amoongus + fire + water type cores. It also just loves and eats alive the ever so popular keldeo latios Lando T defensive core. Not only does mega metagross have the coverage going for it, but the popularity of fairies, defensive lando, lack of Hippowdon, latios everywhere, Clef, CB tar, and rise of sp def skarm just makes everything amazing for mega metagross. It 1 hit Kos every fairy in the meta (unless miss ofc) and just breaks too much like mega medicham for me to not say that this monster should be A rank. Mega metagross just 1 hit KOs and even 2 hit KOs SO much of the meta game its actually insane. A lot of wallbreakers lack a comfortable or "average" 110 speed tier such as zard Y mega gard, mega heracross, Kyurem Black, Manaphy, and Mega Pinsir, while mega metagross is able to outspeed them making it a lot easier for mega metagross to revenge kill and punch holes into teams, while this isnt said for some pokemon. Mega Metagross alsobreaks bulky offense teams a lot easier then a lot of other megas thanks to its speed, coverage, and great defensive typing. Overall I think theres a lot going good and well for mega metagross and there for deserves A rank. He is a few wallbreakers that can tank hits, retaliate back, punch holes, and is a menace for a lot of teams. Knowing there is a mega who resist fairy and can 1 hit KO a lot of the great pokemon right now such as defensive lando, latios, tyranitar, heatran, mega diancie, keldeo, and best of all Clefable, is sometimes too good for me to pass up
 
Now I'm kind of sick of people labelling the S and A+ tiers. starry blanket explained this pretty well but while I'm not part of the ranking team so I can't say for certain if this is true or not but saying "x mon can't be here because is does not define the meta" is a terrible argument. According to most of the ranking team from what I've seen, tiers have no "criteria" for a mon to fulfil in order to enter that tier. In order to get into a tier it has to preform its role either more consistently or just plain better, from what I understand.

For example, saying Lando-T does not define the meta to get into to S rank is a terrible argument. It technically does not need to define the meta in order to get into the S tier and it's literally the face of OU. This mon is the most used mon it defines the meta. If you looked at the ORAS meta whats part of it? People spamming Lando-T. That is not a bad thing. Now onto Lando-T to S.

Without definitions it becomes hard to really come up with a legitimate argument for a mon to become S. What does Lando-T do now that makes it S? What is S? I have no clue. Because of this the best argument I can come up with is that when you compare Lando-T to all the other A+ mons. I find it performs its role much better than anything but M-Scizor. Which should make it S... right? all the arguments about Lando-T to s could be made about Garchomp. It has high usage and then defines the meta right? So it should be S?

Anyway I think Lando-T should be S, it preforms all its roles very well has little counter play forces switches non-stop is arguably the best SR setter in the tier and is unpredictable. Kinda like Clefable... In fact if we compare Clefable to Lando-T they kinda preform the same in terms of what makes them strong. So yes I agree with Lando-T to S but really what makes An S rank mon.

If someone gives me a definition well... why is that not put next to the S tier?
 
The Pokemon in the A+ rank are the Pokemon that, in one form or another, hold the tier together and are the staples of the entirety of the ORAS OU metagame. Obviously just how much weight they hold varies, things like Landorus and Latios being the most influential.
if you meant A+ is just "meta defining stuff", sorry in advance. didn't mean for this to be a callout post or something... i've just seen way too many people say "A+ is all the glue mons XD", and i personally disagree with that notion.
What else could it be interpreted to mean, really? At the most this is a semantic about phrasing, because "hold the tier together and are the staples" implies that they're meta defining and important to the tier. I also don't think the point of offense not having a lot for CharX at +1 is really valid, because if you look at the list of Pokemon on offense that let Charizard X set up, you're essentially limited to stuff like Serperior (only if not behind a Sub already and without Glare / DPulse), Mega Scizor, and maybe Mega Metagross / Mega Lopunny after an Intimidate. Charizard X needs Earthquake to break the Stealth Rock Clefable + Scarf Landorus-T matchups because those squads are the ones that commonly run Heatran and Tyranitar. No recovery and rarely free setup means that even if you get your DD, you're not going to get more than about a kill; after being hit with basically any attack from those teams as it sets up, CharX is not going to clean out an opposing team because it'll have to suicide recoil from Flare Blitz into priority range. And if it's running Roost, it's simply not going to break past the Tyranitar or Heatran on those teams a vast majority of the time if the opponent plays intelligently. It will get its kill but it will not always sweep even if it gets a boost.

It doesn't help that Rocks are also pretty hard to keep off when Latios and Starmie's ability to reliably Defog / Spin is so questionable with Weavile being as good and common as it is, which doesn't improve CharX's scenarios because the offense teams that run CharX rarely have good counterplay to Weavile, if ever, and Weavile is hardly a setup opportunity for CharX when you have to avoid being flinched and are still 2HKO'd. Taking Helmet damage after that or any recoil is easily enough to put you in Ice Shard range. Sure, you can Healing Wish with Scarf Jirachi...but then you're typically out of a Latios or fast Lopunny or Diancie or Garde check.

Despite all this, I am in favor of the rise, but mostly because I don't think it should have ever dropped to begin with. I definitely think the building constraint is real and the potential threat of a sweep is always there, but smart play around CharX and the forced usage of Earthquake > Roost means that it's very commonly not able to sweep. It's a massive threat, sure, but its matchups just aren't as "click DD and win" good as a lot of the posts in this thread assume.

Also:
Now I'm kind of sick of people labelling the S and A+ tiers. starry blanket explained this pretty well but while I'm not part of the ranking team so I can't say for certain if this is true or not but saying "x mon can't be here because is does not define the meta" is a terrible argument. According to most of the ranking team from what I've seen, tiers have no "criteria" for a mon to fulfil in order to enter that tier. In order to get into a tier it has to preform its role either more consistently or just plain better, from what I understand.

For example, saying Lando-T does not define the meta to get into to S rank is a terrible argument. It technically does not need to define the meta in order to get into the S tier and it's literally the face of OU. This mon is the most used mon it defines the meta. If you looked at the ORAS meta whats part of it? People spamming Lando-T. That is not a bad thing. Now onto Lando-T to S.
If you're not part of something (in this case, the ranking team), why are you making blanket statements about a construct that you claim you might not even understand? You reversed on your position that "x mon can't be here because x arbitrary reason" is a bad argument by asking for definitions about how S and other ranks should be organized. Using definitions to rank 'mons by nature means that you're putting an arbitrary reason or standard for each of the rankings. It should be pretty evident that S and the A ranks have the best 'mons in the metagame and that's how they're organized. If Landorus-T is about or similarly as good at blanket checking physical threats, setting Stealth Rock, being a Scarfer or a sweeper with Double Dance, as Clefable is at its multiple roles, then it's an S Rank Pokemon.

If tldr: offense doesn't let CharX set up for free but it shouldn't have dropped to begin with, it needs to have EQ most of the time to break balances and BOs, and the rankings don't need definitions because they're already based on "what the best Pokemon are".
 
Last edited:
Why do people care so much about Lando-T being S Rank? Everyone knows how good it is it doesn't change anything if he goes to S-Rank. Lando-T is by far the most splashable Mon in the tier, the problem of the high usage is basically that if you need a Lando-T check that punish him for U-Turn out and gain momentum by itself you're adding Lando-T because of how easy it is to fit on a team. He sets Stealth Rocks and checks a pletora of the Metagame but it's not difficult to beat the defensive Lando-T Set. If you can't deal with Clefable it will setup and win the Game. You don't really have to beat Lando-T if you can stop the Momentum he gains it's basically Game. Scarf Variants are on the Rise and I don't really know why. Balance and more bulky oriented Teams should be able to handle him. It's only really good against offensive Teams and Teams that lacks a decent way to beat it, but then it's your fault for build sloppy teams. I don't mind Lando-T going to S-Rank but I do mind the never ending story, there are other Mons who should rise or false and it's way more important imO to rank these. The most people just want it to rise because they can't stand the fact that Clefable is the only S-Rank anyway.
 
Why do people care so much about Lando-T being S Rank? Everyone knows how good it is it doesn't change anything if he goes to S-Rank.
I mean sure, whether or not Lando-T is rated S rank in this thread doesn't change that it's the most meta defining pokemon in OU, a strong option on every archetype besides stall, serves as a blanket check vs most physical attackers, etc. You could put Lando-T in D rank, and it wouldn't change anything, but it would just be inaccurate.

People will continue to use Lando-T on ladder and in tournaments at obscene rates because people already know how ridiculously good Lando-T is, in the end it will just be this thread that's fallen behind not putting it in S rank.

If you can't deal with Clefable it will setup and win the Game
This is true of any boosting mon in the game (of which lando-T can do too), but it's also completely irrelevant because nobody queues up for OU without a way to deal with clefable. The strength of a mon in OU depends upon how useful they are even when your opponent has suitable answers (and clefable will t-wave stuff, or set up rocks, and can easily remain healthy to continuously check the mons it's supposed to, which is why it's S rank). Lando-T's defensive set is very similar in that regard, it's getting free damage on the physical mon attacking it, its setting up rocks when they switch, and if rocks are already up it can u-turn out and gain momentum (and even if it's just pressing EQ, stuff's going to get hurt off of its ridiculous attack).
 
This is true of any boosting mon in the game (of which lando-T can do too), but it's also completely irrelevant because nobody queues up for OU without a way to deal with clefable.
Sigh. . . Why am I getting my nose back into this. . .

I'm going to point out the problem with this one sentence and leave it at that.

The thing is, even when you've "prepared" for Clefable, you haven't really "prepared" for Clefable. No, that's not just because of TWave and its complete horse shit of a mechanic, but it's also because of its ability to be catered to your liking. TWave is far from mandatory on Clef, though it is highly recommended because it severely shifts the flow of battle, however it can most certainly be shifted out. You think you're bringing your Lando T in on my Clef? Catch this Ice Beam real quick. What's that every steel type in the meta not named Heatran? I've got a Fire Blast waiting for you. Super fat boosting waters? Have a Tbolt. Sup Heatran, have a Focus Blast. And everything else I've got a Moonblast in the pocket, and I'm sure you get my point. So it's easy to say everyone preps for Clef, but in reality, even when you have, chances are slim that you actually have, because even if it doesn't have the coverage necessary to outright 2hko and force you out, it can most certainly roll the dice with TWave shenanigans.

TLDR: Clef is literally impossible to actually switch into, which is part of why it's currently S and Lando T is not.

EDIT: This is not my stance on Lando T as I personally feel it should have been S a long time ago.
 
Last edited:

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I think Lando-T should go to S rank. Ciele and Gary made some really good points which I agree with. Clefable may be the best mon in the tier, but every rank has a best mon - theres no reason Lando cant be S even if Clef is better. The main difference is how much Clef can achieve in a single set, but Lando has a ton of options for different sets which can glue together different teams. There's a gap in terms of which is a bigger threat, but Lando offers more flexibility to a builder in my opinion.

Also I think if we consider Lando-T for S rank, then we should also take a look at Latios. The usage stats suggest a similar dominance. Usage is not viability but Latios is clearly one of the premier glue mons in the tier. It continues to adapt to the meta with sets such as LO Surf or Specs to beat many of its common answers. While it is susceptible to Pursuit and this can limit its number of switch ins, keep in mind that Lando-T lacks recovery and also has a limited number of switch in opportunities. Overall I think if you look at Latios as a whole it is one of the pokemon helping to hold the metagame together, much like Lando or Clefable. For those thinking that this will cause rank inflation again: what does moving Latios up invite in? I really don't see any good arguments for the other A+ ranks including Mega Scizor
 
A--->A-: Azumarill is just....not that great right now. It's very strong and has a great defensive typing, but the biggest problem with it is how much momentum it sucks from you. It's not a very fast Pokemon at all, and if it's locked into an attack that's not Jet there's a ton of things that can come in and force it out. As a wallbreaker it just faces so much competition for a team slot, and the only set I really like using anymore is Belly Drum because it's a great early game hole puncher or late game cleaner, but even then it still struggles when Mega Scizor is so common, Latios can live a Jet and revenge you, Rotom-W is very common, lots of faster priority users, etc. CB is just bad right now because it lets so many things set up on you and being locked into Jet versus a Mega Scizor, Serp, or Specs Latios is really bad. Its defensive typing is one of the biggest things going for it right now, but unfortunately because of its slow Speed and lack of recovery it's easily worn down and it can't really pivot into anything more than once, and it can easily be put in range of a +1 EQ from Zard-X or LO or Specs Psyshock from Latios. The recent rise in Zapdos is also a pain for it, because the phys def variants can eat up hits from it quite comfortably and I'm fairly certain with rocks off the field it can eat up a +6 Jet too. Not to mention phys def Growth is still a thing as well as Amoonguss and both heavily punish it.
I will agree with most of the things you said, except Tangrowth and Amoonguss do not stop the Belly Drum set:

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 441 - 519 (109.1% - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 506 - 596 (117.4% - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latios does need some extra damage before it can be KOed, but that usually isn't that hard since late game it should be worn down and that's when Azumarill tries to sweep anyway:

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 191 - 225 (63.4% - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And its matchup vs. Scizor isn't all that bad, though unboosted Knock Off is its best move since Belly Drum Azumarill doesn't usually run Waterfall:

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 231 - 272 (67.3% - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 213 - 252 (62.0% - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

44 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 172 HP / 0+ Def Azumarill: 105 - 124 (27.3% - 32.2%)

After rocks and sitrus Azumarill is at 69% assuming no other damage so it can live 2 Bullet Punches and still kill Mega Scizor...

I'll give you Rotom-W as a pain in the ass to Azumarill, but even then if it tries to burn you you can do this back:

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 245 - 288 (80.8% - 95.0%) -- 50.0% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Where if Rotom-W goes for a Volt Switch instead it still doesn't kill Azumarill:

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 188 - 224 (48.9% - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

TL;DR: I agree that Choice Band Azumarill is a bit lackluster but Belly Drum Azumarill is scary af and gets over a lot of its counters. If it sets up a Belly Drum late game its basically gg.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top