ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[branflakes]

While I'm not against retesting things, the three potential candidates Aegislash, Genesect and Deoxys-D are no less broken than they were a year ago.

Aegislash would do an excellent job neutralizing some of the best offensive monsters including Metagross, Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir. As was the case before its ban, it would fit on nearly every team as an all-purpose tank that would almost always carry its weight. Whether or not it would be broken on offense and balance teams is one thing, but my biggest concern is its potential contribution to stall. Mega Sableye and Aegislash would create such a ridiculously broken stall core that would be near impenetrable with the right support. This is just a theory of course, since we have never had the displeasure of seeing both in the metagame at the same time. Aegislash was arguably the #1 fairy check/counter in the tier, and Sableye is already one of the best mons in ORAS OU - a metagame with very few switch-ins to hard-hitting fairies.

I know Bisharp is on most offense teams nowadays, but re-introducing Aegislash would make Bisharp an absolute necessity rather than a preference (see: overcentralizing)

My main issue with Genesect is that it would do the same thing it has always done: Scarf (or bluff scarf) U-Turn spam and ridiculous momentum grabbing for offense. It just abuses the fact that it threatens literally everything bar heatran with its common coverage moves, turning almost anything weak to U-Turn into a liability. I was never a fan of "click u-turn to win when you don't really feel like predicting"

quoted from xy suspect discussion

Hello opponent-kun. It seems your current Pokemon is weak to either of Ice, Fire, Electric, or even Steel or Grass. And it seems Download has given me a free boost to my already good special attack. You'd better switch out, or else I'll hit you for SE damage.

What's that? You switched to your counter for me? lol never mind, I used U-Turn instead allowing me to switch to a counter for your counter.

Deoxys-D controlled the hazard game way too easily. Its only new opposition would be Mega Sableye, which would probably make Skill Swap a necessity. Still, all that would do is turn the lead Deo-D vs Sableye situation into a stupid 50/50 war with Mega Sableye hesitating to mega evolve while Deoxys-D spams Skill Swap or takes the risk of having hazards bounced back. If Deoxys-D doesn't run Skill Swap, then it would be a huge matchup-based advantage for the Mega Sableye user.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Are we seriously considering suspect testing Scald and Stealth Rock.

My Reaction

But seriously though if we are considering suspecting Shadow Tag why not just suspect test Gothitelle, because I fail to see how Woubufett could be considered broken right now.

And yeah I do support a suspect test for Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye, due to Mega Metagrosses shear power, versatility, good bulk, and a pretty nice speed tier, and for Mega Sableye its great typing, great pre and post mega abilities, good bulk, and its ability to run both offensive and defensive sets, I can see why people think these two are broken(Although I only really agree with banning the latter, but both should be suspected)

 

[En]

Is it in all honesty worth shifting the entire metagame just to allow aegislash back into the tier? Yes it has its flaws but these flaws are overshadowed by its over-the-top positives that caused it to be banned in the first place.

1. It checks and counters almost every viable physical attacker baring ground types. It causes mind games with them because of both the amount of switch in opportunities that aegislash has and with king shield. The only physical attacker that wasn't really afraid of aegislash was bisharp but it was shaky at best because of sacred sword.

2. It's typing is one of if not the best in the entire pokemon franchise. With the steel nerf introduced in XY ghost has become the new dragon type. It has one resist (dark) and one immunity (normal). Although there isn't an all-powerful ghost attack like the outrage or Draco are for dragons aegislash has a hefty 150 base special attack and attack that without investment are higher than fully invested modest/adamant base 100s. With full investment it reaches a ludicrous 438 attack or special attack. Combine this with equally good defenses and you literally have monster at your finger tips that almost nothing can stop. It checks and counters way too many pokes for it to be a healthy addition to the metagame. For example it can check mega lopunny, mega metagross, gyarados (lacking crunch), jirachi, among other top-tier threats.

3. Literally the only thing that could stop this thing was Mandibuzz. Although aegislash could obviously be revenge killed, it has access to shadow sneak. This forced many revenge killers to use their weaker priority in an effort to get quick damage on it. Aegislash has all the tools in its arsenal to fully stop anything from countering it. With access to fighting coverage on top of the stellar coverage of its STAB steel and ghost attacks there was nothing any mom could do. Mandibuzz is the closest thing to counter that aegislash has and it's shaky at best.

Even though in some regards aegislash being reintroduced would benefit the tier however the flaws that it brings just far outweigh the positives in every way. Just keep it in ubers, where it belongs.

 

[WebBowser]

I agree with your list except for one point and I wasn't saying that Scolipede, Smeargle or Gothitelle are broken at Kangaskhan-level.
The first point I disagree is:
3. Gives the community a chance to experience a ladder with the suspects banned before a decision is made.

To be specific, while it seems good on paper it showed to me that many people will look at the suspect from a more subjective way. I often read "the meta without pokemon x is now more enjoyable and diverse". Voting for a ban using this as your basis will lead to a more and more "ban what you don't like"-suspect-test. I brought it up once: If we would suspect Talonflame (which I don't say it should be) it would get banned without a doubt. The reason is the "more enjoyable" ladder since you don't have to prepare for it and we all know how much hate it gets. I get the point of banning the suspect from the ladder and experienced players can use it to judge better, but the majority of the people who will decide the outcome are basing their vote only from their personal interest. The ladder is one of the problems to determine a good result in a suspect test, or more specific: the voters. You pointed it out as a pro for suspect test but I think it is more of a con at the moment.

Now to the quickbanning:
Yes, these 3 Pokemon are nowhere near of a threat than Khangaskan or Salamence, and I am sorry if it sounded like I was trying to say that.
My point is: we have ALOT of testing to do and doing a suspect test for everyone is just timeconsuming. A suspect test would be better in my opinion if we wouldn't have so many other things to test too. Using quickbans for these Pokemon seems the optimal solution because they are not really broken, they just have an uncompetitive presence in the metagame. Removing them now, making the ladder and game more skill-based and testing them after all other suspect tests will speed the process up and prevents suspecting one Pokemon after one without any break or time for the ladder to adapt. Scolipede and Smeargle are only dangerous on those BatonPass-teams so quickbanning them doesn't have that much of an impact than quickbanning something like Sableye which definitely needs discussion and testing. The same with Gothitelle as it is "just" trapping defensive Pokemon and a quickban would not lead into a great change to the metagame. Stall players would not have to play around it somehow but would use the same teams basically.
Quickbanning these three gives us room and time to suspect and retest what has to be done soon. After that we can retest and suspect test them and decide if they are really that uncompetitive or broken.

Sorry if somebody misunderstood my original post (I was in a hurry...), I hope I cleared everything up.

So you misunderstood my post a little bit, but not a whole lot.

I wasn't saying that you were saying that Scolipede, Smeargle, or Goth were broken at the same level as M-Kahn and similarly obvious ubers. I was saying that pretty much the only reason the OU council does quick bans as of now is for mons that are M-Kahn levels of borked(remember, the OU council is in charge of quick bans, not me). Therefore, it follows that one of the paths to getting something quick banned is to successfully argue that the something in question is simply that powerful.

As implied in my previous response, that's probably not going to happen with Scolipede, Smeargle, or Goth.

Therefore, if you still want to argue for a quick ban, and judging from the above quoted post you do, you need to argue to the OU council that a quick ban is so much more beneficial then a suspect test in this particular circumstance, that it merits a changing in the council's policy on banning stuff.

That's a very difficult argument to make.

That being said, I am curious as to where this argument would go, so I posted the list of pros and cons in my previous post to help facilitate this conversation.

So that's pretty much my previous response explained in full, with my motivations thrown in as a bonus. So now allow me to actually address the quoted post.

The first point I disagree is:
3. Gives the community a chance to experience a ladder with the suspects banned before a decision is made.

To be specific, while it seems good on paper it showed to me that many people will look at the suspect from a more subjective way. I often read "the meta without pokemon x is now more enjoyable and diverse". Voting for a ban using this as your basis will lead to a more and more "ban what you don't like"-suspect-test. I brought it up once: If we would suspect Talonflame (which I don't say it should be) it would get banned without a doubt. The reason is the "more enjoyable" ladder since you don't have to prepare for it and we all know how much hate it gets. I get the point of banning the suspect from the ladder and experienced players can use it to judge better, but the majority of the people who will decide the outcome are basing their vote only from their personal interest. The ladder is one of the problems to determine a good result in a suspect test, or more specific: the voters. You pointed it out as a pro for suspect test but I think it is more of a con at the moment.

First off, you are not wrong. This is a very real criticism (and in my opinion drawback) of the current suspect testing process: It does nothing to discourage votes based on subjective reasons such as "I like a meta without aegislash better then one with him". However, there is nothing stopping the OU council from making bans based on that same subjective reasoning (not saying they do, just saying they can). If anything, this is an argument for looking into ways to improve the suspect process as opposed to an argument for quick banning something.

My point is: we have ALOT of testing to do and doing a suspect test for everyone is just timeconsuming. A suspect test would be better in my opinion if we wouldn't have so many other things to test too. Using quickbans for these Pokemon seems the optimal solution because they are not really broken, they just have an uncompetitive presence in the metagame. Removing them now, making the ladder and game more skill-based and testing them after all other suspect tests will speed the process up and prevents suspecting one Pokemon after one without any break or time for the ladder to adapt. Scolipede and Smeargle are only dangerous on those BatonPass-teams so quickbanning them doesn't have that much of an impact than quickbanning something like Sableye which definitely needs discussion and testing. The same with Gothitelle as it is "just" trapping defensive Pokemon and a quickban would not lead into a great change to the metagame. Stall players would not have to play around it somehow but would use the same teams basically.

So there's two arguments here. The first is that suspect tests are time consuming, therefore quick ban is preferable. The second is that the removal of Scolipede, Smeargle, and Gothetelle would have relatively little effect on the meta, therefore it's alright to ban them.

For the former, the UU council has made similar arguments/criticisms in the past (citation). Given that these arguments have been made quite some time ago, I think it's safe to assume that the OU council will not receive those same exact arguments from your average rank-and-file member.

The latter, however, is a novel argument from what I can tell. The current policy is the exact opposite of what you are arguing for. Atm, the council only quick bans stuff when they are so incredibly broken that entire teams warp themselves around the presence of these mons, meaning that quick bans have a tremendous (intended, yes, but still tremendous) effect on the metagame. I think that you are also being a tad presumptuous in saying that banning these mons would not have a great effect on the metagame, as I have heard that this very debate is effecting the meta and causing the three mons we are talking about to rise in usage.

Do not underestimate what does and does not effect the meta.

 

[Tressed]

I'm very happy with the meta right now, probably my favorite since I started playing in BW.

Currently somewhat indifferent as to if Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye should be banned. I think it's worth testing them and seeing what the verdict is, but I don't really have an opinion at this time.

I really don't want any of the old suspects back, namely Genesect, Aegislash, or Deoxys-D (or S, for that matter). The shift from XY to ORAS was nowhere near dramatic enough to justify bringing them back. We got a bunch of new Megas, of which a few are able to deal with these old threats, but ultimately you can only have one mega on your team and if you opt to not run one of them, you're stuck with the old answers, of which there were few.

Genesect - Branflakes325 pretty much covered my thoughts on it. It was designed to be a broken 'mon from the start, and unless there is an extremely large power creep and the new meta centers around things that aren't weak to Genesect's coverage, it shouldn't be back in OU. Don't bother testing it, and don't bother dropping it back into OU when the next generation starts.

Aegislash - This thing was just awful imo, it had such a huge negative impact on so many different things. Celebi and Jirachi sit at A and A- in the Viability rankings at the moment, while back in Aegi's time they were chilling in the low C ranks. Other things like Starmie, Hawlucha, Mew, Terrakion, Cresselia, Scizor, Togekiss, Sylveon, and others had all been considered bad or mediocre simply because they gave Aegi a free switch in to fire off a Shadow Ball, and tanking a Shadow Ball wasn't something teams were able to do unless they seriously went out of their way to handle it. I'm not certain why people are calling for a retest, none of the relevant new Megas can actually switch in on Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword, and given how things like Mega Beedrill, Mega Slowbro, Mega Metagross without EQ, and defensive DD Mega Altaria are things now, I reckon Aegislash would have actually gotten better, not worse, with ORAS. Don't retest.

Deoxys-D - We got two new Megas with Magic Bounce. Neither are actually all that immediately threatening (Sableye is pretty weak) and Skill Swap gets around them fairly well. There's really not much of a difference. Don't bother.

I have no opinion about Baton Pass atm, as I've been lucky enough to avoid running into that team on ladder. It's still pretty dumb.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

Perhaps a bit on the controversial side, but how about Banning Espeon? It seems to be the only recipient of Baton Pass that really makes it broken.

Lol. You could ban stored power+baton pass or ban espeon as a baton pass recipient(which are all complex bans that probably won't happen even though drizzle+swift swim happened).
Banning espeon as a whole when it isn't "broken" when bp is out of the equation sounds a little ridiculous to me.
Banning bp all together makes more sense, as bp is only used to do things like shellpass or geo pass. There is no non "broken" way to use baton pass besides using it as a non-damaging volt switch/u-turn.

 

[Josh Morales]

as bp is only used to do things like shellpass or geo pass. There is no non "broken" way to use baton pass besides using it as a non-damaging volt switch/u-turn.

afaik Celebi avoids being pursuit trapped if it uses BP over U-turn, but I do think the only problem is Espeon as the recipient. I think ban Magic Bounce Espeon or ban Stored Power with Espeon.

 

[Kurona]

Banning espeon as a whole when it isn't "broken" when bp is out of the equation sounds a little ridiculous to me.
Banning bp all together makes more sense, as bp is only used to do things like shellpass or geo pass. There is no non "broken" way to use baton pass besides using it as a non-damaging volt switch/u-turn.

There are very clearly non-broken ways to use Baton Pass. Nastypass Celebi is a very viable feasible strategy rising in use that really is not broken.
Maybe banning Espeon as a whole is a bad idea because it's not the 'broken' component is perhaps a good thing to say, but then to go and say we should ban Baton Pass as a whole is either completely hypocritical or displaying an uninformed view of the metagame.
In this particular... 'strategy' it's hard to point out exactly what it is that's broken because it's a whole collection of factors, so in the end we will probably have to ban something that otherwise would not be broken on it's own.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

There are very clearly non-broken ways to use Baton Pass. Nastypass Celebi is a very viable feasible strategy rising in use that really is not broken.
Maybe banning Espeon as a whole is a bad idea because it's not the 'broken' component is perhaps a good thing to say, but then to go and say we should ban Baton Pass as a whole is either completely hypocritical or displaying an uninformed view of the metagame.
In this particular... 'strategy' it's hard to point out exactly what it is that's broken because it's a whole collection of factors, so in the end we will probably have to ban something that otherwise would not be broken on it's own.

I meant to say mostly instead of only my bad.

However, I stand behind the rest of my post.
I don't really see bp as that big of a deal anymore since the days of baton pass chains are over, but if it needs to be dealt with I would ban baton pass entirely instead of beating around the bush. I would suggest a complex ban to preserve as many things as possible but smogon doesn't like those apparently(even though drizzle+swift swim happened). Banning anything other than the thing that is problematic would be like banning jet fuel from bicycle races but leaving the actual jet allowed.(I'll come up with a better analogy later x.x)

 

[WebBowser]

Is there any particular reason why you all are targeting Espeon? I believe I have established that pretty much any mon is scary if it's on the recieving end of a geopass or a Scolipass.

If you want a non-complex ban that deals with BP, I proposed one ages ago: Ban Smeargle and Scolipede. They are the ones that can reliably pass stupid boosts, they should be the ones that get banned.

 

[Kurona]

Is there any particular reason why you all are targeting Espeon? I believe I have established that pretty much any mon is scary if it's on the recieving end of a geopass or a Scolipass.

If you want a non-complex ban that deals with BP, I proposed one ages ago: Ban Smeargle and Scolipede. They are the ones that can reliably pass stupid boosts, they should be the ones that get banned.

I'm not necessarily targeting Espeon anymore; I was just responding to the guy because I find banning Baton Pass even more ridiculous than banning Espeon.
Your suggestion makes sense, but... as I said, it's difficult to pin down what exactly makes BP broken. I'd want to ban Scolipede as a last resort scenario tbh because it can be used feasibly - and is rather viable - just this fucking strategy ruins everything. Gah.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

Is there any particular reason why you all are targeting Espeon? I believe I have established that pretty much any mon is scary if it's on the recieving end of a geopass or a Scolipass.

If you want a non-complex ban that deals with BP, I proposed one ages ago: Ban Smeargle and Scolipede. They are the ones that can reliably pass stupid boosts, they should be the ones that get banned.

^ this and espeon isn't the only stored power user. Banning espeon only means that some other stored power user will replace it. My analogy is pretty much perfect for what I was trying to say, if you don't ban the problem and simply go around it, it will simply become a problem again with something else.

 

[SketchUp]

There is no way scolipede is broken and neither is Smeargle. Scolipede can easily be stopped and if you always get swept by Scolipede BP teams there is something wrong with your teambuilding skills. It is not hard to play around.
GeoPass is stupid but at the moment it is not relevant enough in the metagame to discuss it before Metagross / Sableye / Retests.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

I'm not necessarily targeting Espeon anymore; I was just responding to the guy because I find banning Baton Pass even more ridiculous than banning Espeon. but it's difficult to pin down what exactly makes BP broken.
this fucking strategy ruins everything. Gah.

Like I said, beating around the bush solves nothing. Ban baton pass or leave it as is, because scapegoating mons that just so happen to be good recipients of baton pass is a terrible idea.
You may find my idea more ridiculous but yours was as well and I find mine to be a much better solution that would actually work and move us forward.

Hell, if geopass is the problem, ban geomancy. It has only one use on the only mon outside of xerneas that gets it. To be passed with bp onto something. If that is broken, ban geomancy entirely.

 

[WebBowser]

I'm not necessarily targeting Espeon anymore; I was just responding to the guy because I find banning Baton Pass even more ridiculous than banning Espeon.
Your suggestion makes sense, but... as I said, it's difficult to pin down what exactly makes BP broken. I'd want to ban Scolipede as a last resort scenario tbh because it can be used feasibly - and is rather viable - just this fucking strategy ruins everything. Gah.

On the contrary, ever since BP clause MK II became a thing, it's been incredibly easy to find and target broken baton passers.

The issue seems to be that the community is unused to the very concept of a broken baton passer. People are unused to the idea that there exists mons that can outboost any OU legal sweeper, but instead of sweeping themselves they pass to a mon that can properly abuse those boosts.

I have been aware of Scolipede's ability to outboost virtually any physical sweeper since around May, and I started advocating for his ban shortly afterwords. This was well before even BP clause MK I (aka 3 BP mon limit) became a thing, let alone BP clause MK II.

The issue imo is that very few people were willing to make a serious effort to analyze and understand BP teams to the same level as actual BP teambuilders, which prevented them from finding the broken component of the team.

Not helping matters is that almost all of our working knowledge of BP teams comes from Denis, who made himself famous by crafting incredibly synergistic and well built teams.

SketchUp care to elaborate on how teambuilders can avoid getting swept by scolipass?

and don't you dare say "just run a phaser".

I dare you to say that Bloo is an incompetent teambuilder.

Here's one of Reverb too: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202309433

These are not bad players. On the contrary, they are very good and well respected battlers with experience and skill that puts me to shame. The "lol get gud noob" argument holds no water(and is a crappy argument regardless).

*edit*

fixed broken link

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Banning Speed boost+magic bounce would be the best option tbh. (Such as BW drizzle swim)

There are options for stopping sweeps, it's very team match-up reliant, but magic bounce is the only thing that really puts it over the edge. I was just using a BP team with scolipede a few minutes ago and the littlest things like brelooms and zards still managed to shutdown the whole strategy setting up alongside me and such. Bad thing about scolipede is he can be complete setup bait for other sweepers and is shut down by status and priority.. however it's the magic bounce core that completely ignores this fixing all of scolipede's flaws.

We already made a complex ban for baton pass... so we might as well finish the job with one. Complex ban Speed Boost+Magic Bounce BP cores.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

Having not yet run into a Geomancy Smeargle that devastated me I was hoping someone could clarify for me what sets GeoPass apart from SmashPass? Is is it just that the +2 Sp.Def is more worthwhile than the +2 Atk?
I mean obviously it is on Special attacker, faster Pokemon tend to be more likely to be Special, but a lot of things at +2 Speed are really only out done by priority (physical) It never would have seemed to me that the extra Sp.Def would suddenly make GeoPass significantly more OP when SmashPass wasn't already.

But if we're at the point where baton Passing is now Only from one Pokemon to another and people still see it as troublesome but only on select combinations then the solution seems pretty obvious:
The problematic passer is broken. (/potentially broken if you think they aren't actually problem)

Like people are saying you can't ban recipients cause literally everything is better when passed too. Likewise Baton Pass itself isn't broken and has cool anti-trapping/ wish passing / support uses. Individual Pokemon really good at wracking up boosts that can then pass them are the issue.

And to go a step further I could see it being possible (with a VERY hesitant eye on Espeon) that if certain really efficient boost wracking Passers were determined broken as individuals and removed that the Baton Pass clauses wouldn't be necessary anymore as only moderate/ average boosters would be left and full BP teams could be more gimmicky again.

 

[AM]

Yeah Magic Bounce isn't actually the be all end all of Baton Pass. I've seen plenty of games where stat passes from Smeargle to something like Kyurem-B just devastated teams, and this isn't even something with Magic Bounce. The issue is the passer themselves, not the recipients, in regards to obscene boosts that are occurred in these short BP chains. I'm no bp guru like WebBowser is but that's been sort of a given for awhile, whether or not people accept it is a different story.

 

[WebBowser]

Banning Speed boost+magic bounce would be the best option tbh. (Such as BW drizzle swim)

There are options for stopping sweeps, it's very team match-up reliant, but magic bounce is the only thing that really puts it over the edge. I was just using a BP team with scolipede a few minutes ago and the littlest things like brelooms and zards still managed to shutdown the whole strategy setting up alongside me and such. Bad thing about scolipede is he can be complete setup bait for other sweepers and is shut down by status and priority.. however it's the magic bounce core that completely ignores this fixing all of scolipede's flaws.

We already made a complex ban for baton pass... so we might as well finish the job with one. Complex ban Speed Boost+Magic Bounce BP cores.

Don't get me wrong, stuff like loom and zard are annoying (loom in particular is a constant thorn in my side), but you can usually find ways to bypass them. For loom, it's as simple as winning a 50/50 (does he go for spore or rock tomb? If spore, subs. If rock tomb, iron defense. Make sure to protect first so you're faster. Sub punch loom is a non-threat) and then boosting in his face from there. As for megazards, Megazard-X is setup bait provided you have reflect up, and Zard-Y gets countered by my own Zard-X.

However, this is speaking strictly from my own experiences with my team. Therefore, I suggest that we continue our conversation on the finer points of circumventing common BP counters either by PM or on my RMT.

I'm still against another complex ban, but that's because I still believe scolipede is the issue, not espeon, not magic bounce, and not the number of other BPers that happen to be on my team.

*edit*

and smeargle too, he's also broken.

 

[Celticpride]

I wouldn't say Scolipede is the biggest issue, at least not bigger than Smeargle. Speed pass is annoying, and in combination with SD / ID it can be very annoying. However, the latest BP issue (Geopass) doesn't even require Scoli. The one constant through all of this? Smeargle. Smeargle also has no real use outside of BP (lol Sticky Web). Axing Smeargle is the easiest way to neuter the whole thing.

Edit: Yeah, I undersold Scoli a little bit. I just see it as less of an issue than Smeargle atm.

As far as banning recievers, there's always just going to be another one. Espeon may be as close to perfect as there is, but basically any special attacker becomes a force with the Geomancy-Cotton Guard power pack. I've already explained how Gard could fill in reasonably, and other things could as well. Mega Diancie could fill the spot. Heck, the way the current trendy team is constructed, you can run two complimentary recievers and pick the best one based the opponents team. Screener / Cottontee / Whimscott / Smeargle / Diancie / Volcarona could be damn effective. See Scizor? Go Volc. See Talonflame? Go Diancie. I'm sure some smart player will find new pieces. Two free teamslots basically makes it the Pokemon equivalent of the Read Option.

Banning Magic Bounce really doesn't work, as anything with Taunt stops all common phazing anyways.

 

[Rich Homie Supreme]

Having not yet run into a Geomancy Smeargle that devastated me I was hoping someone could clarify for me what sets GeoPass apart from SmashPass? Is is it just that the +2 Sp.Def is more worthwhile than the +2 Atk?
I mean obviously it is on Special attacker, faster Pokemon tend to be more likely to be Special, but a lot of things at +2 Speed are really only out done by priority (physical) It never would have seemed to me that the extra Sp.Def would suddenly make GeoPass significantly more OP when SmashPass wasn't already.

But if we're at the point where baton Passing is now Only from one Pokemon to another and people still see it as troublesome but only on select combinations then the solution seems pretty obvious:
The problematic passer is broken. (/potentially broken if you think they aren't actually problem)

Like people are saying you can't ban recipients cause literally everything is better when passed too. Likewise Baton Pass itself isn't broken and has cool anti-trapping/ wish passing / support uses. Individual Pokemon really good at wracking up boosts that can then pass them are the issue.

And to go a step further I could see it being possible (with a VERY hesitant eye on Espeon) that if certain really efficient boost wracking Passers were determined broken as individuals and removed that the Baton Pass clauses wouldn't be necessary anymore as only moderate/ average boosters would be left and full BP teams could be more gimmicky again.

I see your point. Why then do we not ban baton pass from passing boosts since that seems to always be the problem with it. It's other uses remain intact and it stops being a problem(if smogon would do this and stop hiding behind their slippery slope excuse).Banning the passers kinda has a similar effect as banning baton pass as a whole, the Pokemon can have other applications but are unable to do so while banned. I still think that banning pass as a whole is still the cleaner way to go about solving this "problem".

 

[AM]

I wouldn't say Scolipede is the biggest issue, at least not bigger than Smeargle. Speed pass is annoying, and in combination with SD / ID it can be very annoying. However, the latest BP issue (Geopass) doesn't even require Scoli. The one constant through all of this? Smeargle. Smeargle also has no real use outside of BP (lol Sticky Web). Axing Smeargle is the easiest way to neuter the whole thing.

As far as banning recievers, there's always just going to be another one. Espeon may be as close to perfect as there is, but basically any special attacker becomes a force with the Geomancy-Cotton Guard power pack. I've already explained how Gard could fill in reasonably, and other things could as well. Mega Diancie could fill the spot. Heck, the way the current trendy team is constructed, you can run two complimentary recievers and pick the best one based the opponents team. Screener / Cottontee / Whimscott / Smeargle / Diancie / Volcarona could be damn effective. See Scizor? Go Volc. See Talonflame? Go Diancie. I'm sure some smart player will find new pieces. Two free teamslots basically makes it the Pokemon equivalent of the Read Option.

Banning Magic Bounce really doesn't work, as anything with Taunt stops all common phazing anyways.

There's a big difference though in that Smeargle and Scolipede are able to net much more boosts in a shorter amount of time and with this being said defensive boosts as well, which is a big factor in why they are such good passers. You may not see Scolipede a lot in comparison to Smeargle in regards to BP passing but it doesn't change the fact that Scolipede is an extremely effective passer.

 

[WebBowser]

I see your point. Why then do we not ban baton pass from passing boosts since that seems to always be the problem with it. It's other uses remain intact and it stops being a problem(if smogon would do this and stop hiding behind their slippery slope excuse).Banning the passers kinda has the same effect as banning baton pass as a whole, the Pokemon can have other applications but are unable to do so while banned. I still think that banning pass as a whole is still the cleaner way to go about solving this "problem".

Banning the broken passers is not equivalent to banning baton pass as a whole. A quick decksearch on PS shows that there are about 85 mons that learn baton pass. Granted, not all of them are even remotely relevant to OU, however I'm sure that whatever tier they do reside in, BP is a legit option worth considering.

Don't ban a move just because some mons are borked with it. Doing so would be like banning u-turn because Genesect is broken with it.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

I see your point. Why then do we not ban baton pass from passing boosts since that seems to always be the problem with it. It's other uses remain intact and it stops being a problem(if smogon would do this and stop hiding behind their slippery slope excuse).Banning the passers kinda has the same effect as banning baton pass as a whole, the Pokemon can have other applications but are unable to do so while banned. I still think that banning pass as a whole is still the cleaner way to go about solving this "problem".

I think it just comes down to the way it's always done. Moves are more limited than Pokemon. Since I have been seeing people speak of Genesect I could pose the reverse question. Why did we ban Genesect when we could have just banned U-turn? that way we can use Genesect for non-pivot applications right?

Banning Baton Pass when it itself is not inherently broken hurts the function of a lot of not so broken Pokemon. Meanwhile, if you find Smeargle's specific use of Baton Pass broken then that makes Smeragle the Pokemon broken. If Smeargle's other applications aren't broken they are arguably competitively inferior anyways. And for reasons I hopefully don't need to go into the Pokemon as a whole is broken or it's not, there's no banning Baton Pass off of just Smeragle.

For now banning Geomancy is a "loop hole" but it only works because Smeargle is the only non Uber that gets Geomancy. I would personally argue that its not good banning practice.

EDIT: wow I got ninjasked with literally the exact same example XD

 

[KztxL7]

I feel as if some people overestimate Mega Sableye's defense. At least when it comes to typing.

Sure it has 3 Immunities. Except Normal Type attacks are almost never used unless its backed by Scrappy (Mega Lopunny), or is backed by an "-ate" ability (Sylveon, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Altaria). Psychic is o.k. at best an offensive typing (and terrible defensively, which one of the few reasons Mega Metagross hasn't been quickbanned). Fighting while no means bad has lost some standing thanks to Fairies, among other reasons.

Its only resist is Poison which is a rare attack type outside of few users, even with Fairies running around, who generally have STAB (Gengar).

And Speaking of Fairies, guess what its one weakness is? Fairy type. Its not like these Fairy types have risen because of Mega Sableye either. In XY, Azumarill, Clefable and Mega Gardevoir were incredibly stong. With Greninja and his Gunk Shot gone, the only thing truly oppressing them is Mega Metagross (I want this bastard gone).

125/115 defenses are amazing, even more so when backed by Will-O-Wisp and Calm Mind Boosting, but when you have 50 HP and 20 Speed after the loss of Prankster from Mega Evolving and no way of getting it back, you really have to fish for turns sometimes to safely get him in because a lot hits him neutrally.