ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[AM]

Ok we're gonna end the discussion on complex banning cause it's getting ridiculous with one liners and people's ideas of what should be done in a way through the use of complex banning and other matters that should and will be handled by the policy and tier leaders if and when that time comes. Thanks.

 

[Merritt]

Required Reading please. They may date back quite a while, but they should adequately explain some of the reasoning behind bans.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/previously-banned-pokemon-with-alternate-abilities.3479443/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/relooking-at-banning-philosophy-suspecting-moves.3486166/

The second is more helpful in terms of the discussion about simply banning Baton Pass.

EDIT: See AM above.

 

[WebBowser]

Okay, before we go into banning anything. I have one serious general question about how you all are handling this "situation"

Do you carry any sort of phazer?

Geopass deals with phasers with taunt spam, spore and magic bounce. My scolipede quickpass team deals with phasers with either magic bounce or just by throwing Wobb at it.

 

[Toljik]

Because they are not broken moves.

How are you able to justify banning something that's not broken? It helps out with Baton Pass brokenness, but those moves in themselves are not broken. Neither is Baton Pass. It doesn't matter how often or where they're used, but if it's not broken we should not ban it.

We can't look at collateral damage when suspecting/banning something, either way. Saying we should ban Stored Power because it will have little collateral damage is just as flawed an argument as saying we shouldn't ban something because it hurts things in lower tiers.

As for Iron Defense and Cotton Guard, they do have legitimate uses, even if they're not exactly the best moves ever. Altaria, for example, has an option of a CG set. Banning them is once again banning something that isn't broken and might not even hit the root of the problem.

I'm being pragmatic here. There is no guaranteed way to stop Baton Pass teams except for banning Baton Pass itself, or banning the moves that make Baton Pass broken. That is the source of the problem. There's a good chance that we're going to talking about Harden Ninjask or SmashPass Gorebyss in a month, spending weeks suspecting it instead of dealing with other Pokemon, when we can stop the problem right now.

 

[WebBowser]

I'm being pragmatic here. There is no guaranteed way to stop Baton Pass teams except for banning Baton Pass itself, or banning the moves that make Baton Pass broken. That is the source of the problem. There's a good chance that we're going to talking about Harden Ninjask or SmashPass Gorebyss in a month, spending weeks suspecting it, when we can stop the problem right now.

There is no way in heck that harden ninjask is going to work out. I literally tested that piece of crap in NU and it didn't work.

Besides, we've agreed pages ago that there may be other broken passers besides Smeargle, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Zyrax]

↑
That same argument can be made for banning the ability Protean on Greninja, since straight up banning Greninja limits your team options by 1 pokemon

Very few people use Scolipede and Smeargle outside of Baton Pass anyway
Very few people use Kingra and Kabutops outside from rain teams anyway, that's why they're banned and no complex ban was involved concerning the rain abuse from Gen5. Oh, wait...

 

[Toljik]

There is no way in heck that harden ninjask is going to work out. I literally tested that piece of crap in NU and it didn't work.

Besides, we've agreed pages ago that there may be other broken passers besides Smeargle, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Well, yeah, we could always just suspect test whatever broken BP user pops up afterwards. But it'll be a long process which takes time away from suspecting other OU threats. I think no matter which side you're on about Baton Pass, you're probably sick of debating it for the 3rd time in a row.

Also, don't underestimate dennisss. He'd probably do the dual screens + Memento thing that's currently done to allow a Smeargle GeoPass.

 

[Terminate421]

Geopass deals with phasers with taunt spam, spore and magic bounce. My scolipede quickpass team deals with phasers with either magic bounce or just by throwing Wobb at it.

Magic Bounce Espeon behind a Sub screws over any form of phazing

Magic Bounce Espeon, plus Offensive teams can't afford them since they kill momentum.

Okay now to respond.

So far we can only baton pass with one passer, correct? I'm surprised many people seem to be having trouble with just one or two combination of set ups. Spore is the primary method of shutting down something that stops the counter, yet here we are discussing the sleep as if it was broken in the first place.

Its in this current meta-game I've actually noticed a trend, all forms of team building have one specific weakness towards another. Everyone is trying to build something that can handle every team possible but the thing is no one really can. I'm not saying that this can be a problem, but keep in mind HOW complex this set up is if Dennissss is able to combat and make extremely obscure combinations and dismember every single one of your "counters."

If we're to discuss moving the meta-game any further, banning something we have nerfed TWICE is probably the last thing to have to discuss. The creator himself is literally the only one who manages to keep these things going and showing me one example game isn't going to change much about this opinion ever.

Bans should be a last resort, here we are dishing them out like foot stamps.

(Also for future reference, is Dragontail just not considered viable anymore? I don't see fairy-types running around as much and if you managed to threaten the switch, its over.)

 

[Merritt]

I'm being pragmatic here. There is no guaranteed way to stop Baton Pass teams except for banning Baton Pass itself, or banning the moves that make Baton Pass broken. That is the source of the problem. There's a good chance that we're going to talking about Harden Ninjask or SmashPass Gorebyss in a month, spending weeks suspecting it instead of dealing with other Pokemon, when we can stop the problem right now.

Prove to me that those are broken. Simple as that.

To expand so this isn't just a shitpost oneliner, I am unconvinced that SmashPass Gorebyss will be as broken, or that SpeedPass Ninjask will be broken, or that any other Baton Passer is broken. This is due in part from lack of evidence supporting it, as I've seen no really good convincing replays of their brokenness, but also because of their individual traits that make them less suited for passing (inability to get free boosts, lack of stats). If you can provide me with replays or very convincing reasons that they will also be broken then I would be less vehemently opposed to a ban of Baton Pass.

On the other hand we do have convincing replays and experience against Smeargle and Scolipede. If your issue is time, then there was a suggestion made a while back about asking for a quickban of these Pokemon. So far I've seen nobody argue that their optimal sets (which is the baton pass set, don't lie) are not broken. In other words, the camp that says it's not completely broken (and therefore deserves a suspect to determine if it is) has been silent. I don't even know if they're out there. If the issue really is time, then quickban them.

What could possibly go wrong? But seriously, somebody provide a semi-reasonable argument for keeping Scolipede and Smeargle under the assumption that Baton Pass will not be banned in any way. (That doesn't mean it won't happen, but saying that we shouldn't ban it but instead ban Baton Pass or a complex ban involving it is not a good argument for it.)

 

[Terminate421]

Prove to me that those are broken. Simple as that.

To expand so this isn't just a shitpost oneliner, I am unconvinced that SmashPass Gorebyss will be as broken, or that SpeedPass Ninjask will be broken, or that any other Baton Passer is broken. This is due in part from lack of evidence supporting it, as I've seen no really good convincing replays of their brokenness, but also because of their individual traits that make them less suited for passing (inability to get free boosts, lack of stats). If you can provide me with replays or very convincing reasons that they will also be broken then I would be less vehemently opposed to a ban of Baton Pass.

On the other hand we do have convincing replays and experience against Smeargle and Scolipede. If your issue is time, then there was a suggestion made a while back about asking for a quickban of these Pokemon. So far I've seen nobody argue that their optimal sets (which is the baton pass set, don't lie) are not broken. In other words, the camp that says it's not completely broken (and therefore deserves a suspect to determine if it is) has been silent. I don't even know if they're out there. If the issue really is time, then quickban them.

What could possibly go wrong? But seriously, somebody provide a semi-reasonable argument for keeping Scolipede and Smeargle under the assumption that Baton Pass will not be banned in any way. (That doesn't mean it won't happen, but saying that we shouldn't ban it but instead ban Baton Pass or a complex ban involving it is not a good argument for it.)

The Baton Pass thing has never been a "problem" until recently.

This is seriously just a conditional thing, and banning more pokemon won't fix the issue either. Next month will be harden Ninjask, seriously.

That and the thing is that these set ups really require precise timing on each of these replays I've been watching.

 

[Toljik]

Fair enough. Tomorrow I'll build a team centered around Gorebyss and see what happens.

If anyone else wants to try, I'm thinking Light Screen/Reflect/Memento/Psychic Latios, SmashPass White Herb Gorebyss, and MegaGross.

 

[Merritt]

The Baton Pass thing has never been a "problem" until recently.

This is seriously just a conditional thing, and banning more pokemon won't fix the issue either. Next month will be harden Ninjask, seriously.

That and the thing is that these set ups really require precise timing on each of these replays I've been watching.

This wasn't a semi-reasonable argument.

You hit the whole "it wasn't an issue before, so why is it now" thing that showed up in the Deoxys suspect and managed to combine the Slippery Slope argument with the idea of "if we ban this then this becomes broken" thing.

And the last point I have no clue what you're going for. Mega Lucario required the right timing to set up its boosting move, it couldn't just NP or SD in front of a Heatran, so obviously it wasn't broken. Mega Charizard X has to wait for a "precise timing" to set up with DD, so it's obviously not very good. The fact is, finding/making these points appear isn't overly difficult.

 

[WebBowser]

↑
That same argument can be made for banning the ability Protean on Greninja, since straight up banning Greninja limits your team options by 1 pokemon

Very few people use Scolipede and Smeargle outside of Baton Pass anyway
Very few people use Kingra and Kabutops outside from rain teams anyway, that's why they're banned and no complex ban was involved concerning the rain abuse from Gen5. Oh, wait...

Are you arrowing the right post? Cuz I'm kinda confused.

Well, yeah, we could always just suspect test whatever broken BP user pops up afterwards. But it'll be a long process which takes time away from suspecting other OU threats. I think no matter which side you're on about Baton Pass, you're probably sick of debating it for the 3rd time in a row.

Also, don't underestimate dennisss. He'd probably do the dual screens + Memento thing that's currently done to allow a Smeargle GeoPass.

I was just reviewing some PR threads that I haven't read in awhile and I came across this little gem from Aldaron.

Time is irrelevant to me; I am of the philosophy that we are creating a metagame for the future as well as the present, meaning it should be relevant for generations to come. Hence, time is utterly irrelevant to me. People shouldn't view OU tiering only in the BW generation time range...it will be relevant at least for 2 more gens in tour, and possibly forever once we implement the old gen ou tour.

I'm actually in full agreement with this statement, if suspecting individual mons instead of BP will result in a healthier metagame then banning a move, then we should suspect individual mons. Screw time considerations!

Furthermore, if a move does get banned over this, guess which move it's gonna be? I'm willing to wager that it'll be Baton Pass itself. I don't want that, and I know you don't want that either.

Lastly, can we stop pretending that Denis is the only competent BP teambuilder on Smogon? Part of the reason why we're having this discussion for the fourth time over (and I know it's the fourth because I participated in them all) is precisely because our bans focused too much on nerfing a single team. We need standards that we can use for the current ban proposals and future BP related bans.

Okay now to respond.

So far we can only baton pass with one passer, correct? I'm surprised many people seem to be having trouble with just one or two combination of set ups. Spore is the primary method of shutting down something that stops the counter, yet here we are discussing the sleep as if it was broken in the first place.

Its in this current meta-game I've actually noticed a trend, all forms of team building have one specific weakness towards another. Everyone is trying to build something that can handle every team possible but the thing is no one really can. I'm not saying that this can be a problem, but keep in mind HOW complex this set up is if Dennissss is able to combat and make extremely obscure combinations and dismember every single one of your "counters."

If we're to discuss moving the meta-game any further, banning something we have nerfed TWICE is probably the last thing to have to discuss. The creator himself is literally the only one who manages to keep these things going and showing me one example game isn't going to change much about this opinion ever.

Bans should be a last resort, here we are dishing them out like foot stamps.

(Also for future reference, is Dragontail just not considered viable anymore? I don't see fairy-types running around as much and if you managed to threaten the switch, its over.)

1. Most spore users aren't able to give themselves game winning boosts in a single turn. If we ever got a DDer with spore or something idiotic like that, I can assure you it would be broken. Heck, a big part of why Darkrai is uber is because it's a setup sweeper with an accurate sleep move.

2. The nerfs didn't work because we had passers that were individually broken. I've literally been arguing this for months, I have posts from as far back as last May.

3. I've posted a heck of a lot more then a single replay on this thread. My RMT thread also has a massive archive for your viewing pleasure.


Merritt This is probably counter-productive to my purposes, but I can give you some of the more reasonable arguments for Scolipede being perfectly fine.

1. It is very weak to strong special attackers, especially speed boosting ones like RP lando-I
2. It doesn't have much to discourage opponent's from setting up alongside it.
3. It relies on having something to swap into any threat that comes in, while at the same time being a free swap in for any threat. NPers in particular can force scoli out while nailing anything Scoli tries to BP to pretty hard.
4. Phasers force it to swap immediately to espeon, potentially risking your sweeper prematurely.

 

[piuchester]

Reading the last 3 pages, all I can see is the Scarecrow fallacy: No one is attacking what Baton Pass is or isn't doing to the metagame, only the scarecrow you created, with notable flaws (but not ones truly relevant to the discussion.

Truth is: Neither Scolipede or Smeargle can both boost and pass in a single turn. What stops you from phazing or taunting it?
Thundurus has Prankster Taunt; you can bring it after each one of those pokémon (scolipede on turn 1, smeargle after the spore) and Taunt it before you pass. The same can be said about Sableye pre-mega (and this is talking about two that are in top of the tops in viability). Other fast Taunters also work if they can enter safely on them. Serperior is a fine example because it can come turn 1 on Smeargle's Spore, and now with Contrary, it's plain viable in OU (not the highest viability ranking, but still). Whimsicott may not be relevant to OU, but it literally shits over the two main BP setters.

But you don't even need to Taunt those, if you're prepared to hit the abuser (mainly Espeon). It has shit for bulk (65/60/95, really?), and it can be smacked down on entry turn depending on which boosts it has; Neither of those have time to pass Subs (and if it does, it means you gave it one extra, unnecessary free turn.

tl;dr: if BP is wrecking YOU (not me) over, adapt, not complain.

 

[Josh Morales]

Reading the last 3 pages, all I can see is the Scarecrow fallacy: No one is attacking what Baton Pass is or isn't doing to the metagame, only the scarecrow you created, with notable flaws (but not ones truly relevant to the discussion.

Truth is: Neither Scolipede or Smeargle can both boost and pass in a single turn. What stops you from phazing or taunting it?
Thundurus has Prankster Taunt; you can bring it after each one of those pokémon (scolipede on turn 1, smeargle after the spore) and Taunt it before you pass. The same can be said about Sableye pre-mega (and this is talking about two that are in top of the tops in viability). Other fast Taunters also work if they can enter safely on them. Serperior is a fine example because it can come turn 1 on Smeargle's Spore, and now with Contrary, it's plain viable in OU (not the highest viability ranking, but still). Whimsicott may not be relevant to OU, but it literally shits over the two main BP setters.

But you don't even need to Taunt those, if you're prepared to hit the abuser (mainly Espeon). It has shit for bulk (65/60/95, really?), and it can be smacked down on entry turn depending on which boosts it has; Neither of those have time to pass Subs (and if it does, it means you gave it one extra, unnecessary free turn.

tl;dr: if BP is wrecking YOU (not me) over, adapt, not complain.

The reason no one is discussing whether or not it is problematic is because everyone with a brain knows that it is problematic and there is absolutely no reason to discuss it any further. If you don't understand then that's on you to either convince us or be convinced.

 

[jimml]

Magic Bounce Espeon behind a Sub screws over any form of phazing

Any good player would know that is not true.

 

[Punchshroom]

Truth is: Neither Scolipede or Smeargle can both boost and pass in a single turn. What stops you from phazing or taunting it?

Thundurus has Prankster Taunt; you can bring it after each one of those pokémon (scolipede on turn 1, smeargle after the spore) and Taunt it before you pass. The same can be said about Sableye pre-mega (and this is talking about two that are in top of the tops in viability). Other fast Taunters also work if they can enter safely on them. Serperior is a fine example because it can come turn 1 on Smeargle's Spore, and now with Contrary, it's plain viable in OU (not the highest viability ranking, but still). Whimsicott may not be relevant to OU, but it literally shits over the two main BP setters.

But you don't even need to Taunt those, if you're prepared to hit the abuser (mainly Espeon). It has shit for bulk (65/60/95, really?), and it can be smacked down on entry turn depending on which boosts it has; Neither of those have time to pass Subs (and if it does, it means you gave it one extra, unnecessary free turn.

I'm pretty sure Scolipede carries Mental Herb to stop shit like that from happening, as well as Magic Bounce recipients (mostly Espeon since it doesn't need MEvolving). In any case, there is like literally one relevant Prankster Taunt user in OU in Thundy-I, which is nowhere near as splashable as phasing moves or even Haze (sure, Thundy-I itself is splashable, but fitting Taunt onto its moveset with little repercussions is a different story). The same would apply to something like Mold Breaker Roar Mega Gyarados and Whimsicott.

So if people cannot Prankster Taunt or phase the BPer, they then switch to a teammate than can bop Espeon, like you said. However, you forget that the BPer can simply pass to recipients other than Espeon. This means that once Pede / Smeargle get their setup opprtunity (this happens more often than you'd believe due to Pede's high speed and Smeargle's Spore), in order to effectively ward off the Pass you must switch into a Pokemon with a phasing move and can beat Espeon, but here's the kicker: predict the recipient incorrectly and you can still lose; essentially, the entire match can hinge on that one turn in almost every Baton Pass game. And since Baton Pass has several powerful recipients to choose from, this tends to not go well in your favor.

I am not against allowing Baton Pass to be used on more than one pokemon per team. But I think if a pokemon is Baton Passed to then it should not be allowed to use the move Baton Pass itself. Granted this in itself just another weird complex ban which is already covered by the current clause.

I've suggested exactly this kind of clause back when ChainPass was in full swing, in an effort to shut down ChainPass while still keeping QuickPass. However, it has become apparent to me (probably later than it should :P) that Smeargle and Scolipede were the big culprits all along; they're the ones that made ChainPass the cancer it was, and even today they still manage to make QuickPass a concern for the meta. These two were such big factors to Baton Pass's infamy, I'd even entertain the idea of uplifting the current Baton Pass Clause if Pede and Smeargle get banned just to see if Baton Pass can still stand high without those two, but we probably shouldn't go into that right now XD

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Reading the last 3 pages, all I can see is the Scarecrow fallacy: No one is attacking what Baton Pass is or isn't doing to the metagame, only the scarecrow you created, with notable flaws (but not ones truly relevant to the discussion.

Truth is: Neither Scolipede or Smeargle can both boost and pass in a single turn. What stops you from phazing or taunting it?
Thundurus has Prankster Taunt; you can bring it after each one of those pokémon (scolipede on turn 1, smeargle after the spore) and Taunt it before you pass. The same can be said about Sableye pre-mega (and this is talking about two that are in top of the tops in viability). Other fast Taunters also work if they can enter safely on them. Serperior is a fine example because it can come turn 1 on Smeargle's Spore, and now with Contrary, it's plain viable in OU (not the highest viability ranking, but still). Whimsicott may not be relevant to OU, but it literally shits over the two main BP setters.

But you don't even need to Taunt those, if you're prepared to hit the abuser (mainly Espeon). It has shit for bulk (65/60/95, really?), and it can be smacked down on entry turn depending on which boosts it has; Neither of those have time to pass Subs (and if it does, it means you gave it one extra, unnecessary free turn.

tl;dr: if BP is wrecking YOU (not me) over, adapt, not complain.

Assuming you actually read through the last 3 pages, you'd think you'd know the answers to all your questions already. . .
However, I'm here to help!
Firstly, Magic bouncers are what stop you from phazing and taunting, not to mention the ever prepared Mental herb Scolipede, who although is stopped by Thundurus, has no problem otherwise. Any competent (at minimum) player knows, the second you bring Thundy in, you're going for the taunt at some point, so, I highly doubt that will work out in your favor.
See, the problem with GeoPass is simple, it's so perfectly put together, that everything has been accounted for. Because it doesn't need to cover its ass (attack wise) it allows it to cover every other aspect. Hard hitting mon coming in? Memento on out. Got a taunter coming your way? Espeon it is, then right back out to abuse the free turn.

You can tell me to taunt 'till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't remove the fact that most people running GeoPass, know what the hell they're doing. The only true option to run, taunt wise, is a mold breaker. There aren't many of them, and if you're going to tell me to carry MegaDos for GeoPass then you're further proving why GeoPass is as ridiculous as it is.

 

[Terminate421]

Assuming you actually read through the last 3 pages, you'd think you'd know the answers to all your questions already. . .
However, I'm here to help!
Firstly, Magic bouncers are what stop you from phazing and taunting, not to mention the ever prepared Mental herb Scolipede, who although is stopped by Thundurus, has no problem otherwise. Any competent (at minimum) player knows, the second you bring Thundy in, you're going for the taunt at some point, so, I highly doubt that will work out in your favor.
See, the problem with GeoPass is simple, it's so perfectly put together, that everything has been accounted for. Because it doesn't need to cover its ass (attack wise) it allows it to cover every other aspect. Hard hitting mon coming in? Memento on out. Got a taunter coming your way? Espeon it is, then right back out to abuse the free turn.

You can tell me to taunt 'till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't remove the fact that most people running GeoPass, know what the hell they're doing. The only true option to run, taunt wise, is a mold breaker. There aren't many of them, and if you're going to tell me to carry MegaDos for GeoPass then you're further proving why GeoPass is as ridiculous as it is.

Then its honestly JUST smeargle that is the problem here.

Honestly lets put the cards down separately and look at whats going on:

The baton pass is going to go to literally just one pokemon,

Scolipede gives the speed boosts and Iron Defense passes, Scolipede himself isn't broken.

Smeargle will provide support in the form of spore as well as the initial baton pass AFTER the Geomancy has been cast. Smeargle itself despite having the greatest move pool of all time has terribad stats, in essence not being broken on its own.

Espeon is usually the receiver (Heavy emphasis on usually) and dishes out the initial sweep. Espeon itself is not broken either.

The more and more I look at this, the more and more I feel like we're just missing something. These pokemon individually are not broken (We have had countless threads proving this). This is NOT like Greninja where all the ideal pieces fit onto one pokemon enough to where it puts up a fight. Its more like a comp that happens to be really effective in synchronization. Geomancy as a move was intended to be exclusive to Xerneas funnily enough, now I see why the power being shifted to Smeargle is causing problems. If anything, it's Smeargle who is the most damaging as the current meta-game where a pokemon can learn every move is actually really powerful on its own. But banning Smeargle would not fix anything other than overkill...so lets look at the culprits:

Spore puts things to sleep with 100% accuracy, not too widespread of a move and with sleep clause, its something to ignore.
Baton Pass, this has been discussed, ignore
Geomancy? Two quiver dances in one turn thanks to a power herb? Huh.

Banning all three pokemon is not the answer, banning one pokemon is not the answer. If anything, I would suggest the sole investigation of Geomancy as a move in itself.

Geomancy can only be learned solely by Xerneas and Smeargle, correct? One of which is not in ubers and the other can generate a massive boost in one turn thanks to an item combo in the form of power herb. Had this been quiver dance, I'd be laughing as to how this is a problem. Two quiver dances on the same turn is effective despite the item dedication, as such, a move ban might be called for if we were to do anything. No pokemon are banned and can still be used to our hearts content, and an abusive play style has been smoted. (Honestly I have no problem with it as complex as dennissssss is.) So in essence everyone wins.

Keep in mind I am not on the side of doing anything there are far more interesting ways we should be talking about in relation to the meta-game, such as potential unbans or if anything looking at usage stats. Coming back to an issue that was nerfed twice is not one.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Banning all three pokemon is not the answer, banning one pokemon is not the answer. If anything, I would suggest the sole investigation of Geomancy as a move in itself.

Geomancy can only be learned solely by Xerneas and Smeargle, correct? One of which is not in ubers and the other can generate a massive boost in one turn thanks to an item combo in the form of power herb. Had this been quiver dance, I'd be laughing as to how this is a problem. Two quiver dances on the same turn is effective despite the item dedication, as such, a move ban might be called for if we were to do anything. No pokemon are banned and can still be used to our hearts content, and an abusive play style has been smoted. (Honestly I have no problem with it as complex as dennissssss is.) So in essence everyone wins.

Keep in mind I am not on the side of doing anything there are far more interesting ways we should be talking about in relation to the meta-game, such as potential unbans or if anything looking at usage stats. Coming back to an issue that was nerfed twice is not one.

See now this, I believed to be the solution as well. Geomancy makes this so easy to do, +2 in all the relevant stats Espeon needs? Not bad. However, if that were the answer, things would be far too simple. See, a main, and recurring, problem I've come to realize is how many stats are boosted at once, not one turn per se. See, scolipede is capable of setting up 2 stats at once, two VERY important stats at once, and smeargle can set up 3, then follow it up with +3 in defense. Now, what puts Smeargle an entire league above Scoli is its access to spore. This is where that Genius aspect of GeoPass takes place. Smeargle will always, not almost always, always come in after a Pokemon has been memento'ed. Meaning it has two, non consequential options, take a weak hit and put it to sleep, or spore whatever comes in. Either way, next turn it's getting a free geomancy/Quiver Dance and the game begins. See, losing Geomancy doesn't alleviate the problem, it merely prolongs it. Smeargle's access to any move in the game is what proves to be a problem. Hell, it can drop Power Herb for White Herb and smashpass, cotton guard then pass to CM espeon if it wants it gets free set up.

Bottom line is, if we want to get rid of this, we need to do it right. This will be the third time we do anything about Baton Pass since XY was created, and I think that's two times too many. We need to stop it hard in its tracks, and unfortunately, banning Geomancy is not the answer. Unfortunately for Smogon and how we function, this requires more delving into. Complex ban or no, if anything is done, it will be against our typical best wishes.

 

[Terminate421]

See now this, I believed to be the solution as well. Geomancy makes this so easy to do, +2 in all the relevant stats Espeon needs? Not bad. However, if that were the answer, things would be far too simple. See, a main, and recurring, problem I've come to realize is how many stats are boosted at once, not one turn per se. See, scolipede is capable of setting up 2 stats at once, two VERY important stats at once, and smeargle can set up 3, then follow it up with +3 in defense. Now, what puts Smeargle an entire league above Scoli is its access to spore. This is where that Genius aspect of GeoPass takes place. Smeargle will always, not almost always, always come in after a Pokemon has been memento'ed. Meaning it has two, non consequential options, take a weak hit and put it to sleep, or spore whatever comes in. Either way, next turn it's getting a free geomancy/Quiver Dance and the game begins. See, losing Geomancy doesn't alleviate the problem, it merely prolongs it. Smeargle's access to any move in the game is what proves to be a problem. Hell, it can drop Power Herb for White Herb and smashpass, cotton guard then pass to CM espeon if it wants it gets free set up.

Bottom line is, if we want to get rid of this, we need to do it right. This will be the third time we do anything about Baton Pass since XY was created, and I think that's two times too many. We need to stop it hard in its tracks, and unfortunately, banning Geomancy is not the answer. Unfortunately for Smogon and how we function, this requires more delving into. Complex ban or no, if anything is done, it will be against our typical best wishes.

I personally disagree and agree.

Like I was saying, I find Geomancy to be the ultimate problem. If we need to get to the real cause, it was something that was really never meant to have "gods gift" in the first place, AKA Smeargle. Scolipede's speed boost and iron defense is powerful, however it alone is not the problem. Even IF you manage to get +3 on speed and two Iron Defenses onto an Espeon, that can at least be taken on. It's strictly Smeargle that I find is the ultimate issue if we were to proceed.

As previously stated, I find absolutely no issue yet. Striking down one play style that relies on absolute sheer bait and prediction. But if we have to target anything else, Smeargle is the ultimate problem. Even when Baton Pass was available to all, Smeargle was the main fuel to the fire (The the way of Roots and Spore too). We found the section and the sub-section that may be causing the problems, I'd suggest sticking to those if we have to. However, like I said, I am not seeing a wide-spread problem and a ban shouldn't be something we need to focus on.

 

[Karxrida]

I personally disagree and agree.

Like I was saying, I find Geomancy to be the ultimate problem. If we need to get to the real cause, it was something that was really never meant to have "gods gift" in the first place, AKA Smeargle. Scolipede's speed boost and iron defense is powerful, however it alone is not the problem. Even IF you manage to get +3 on speed and two Iron Defenses onto an Espeon, that can at least be taken on. It's strictly Smeargle that I find is the ultimate issue if we were to proceed.

As previously stated, I find absolutely no issue yet. Striking down one play style that relies on absolute sheer bait and prediction. But if we have to target anything else, Smeargle is the ultimate problem. Even when Baton Pass was available to all, Smeargle was the main fuel to the fire (The the way of Roots and Spore too). We found the section and the sub-section that may be causing the problems, I'd suggest sticking to those if we have to. However, like I said, I am not seeing a wide-spread problem and a ban shouldn't be something we need to focus on.

SmashPass gets the same amount of boosts needed with the exact same support, expect now you can deal more damage to Espeon with Foul Play. Smeargle is definitely the issue here.

 

[Aberforth]

Lowest collateral in my opinion would just be to ban baton pass. The other situations it is used in (nastypass, momentum grabbing, avoiding being pursuited) are either potentially just as bad due to celebi gaining several boosting moves and be able to get to +4 in two turns, or a lot more situational and not really worth giving up a moveslot for in my opinion. We've had to nerf the move twice already, why not just ban it? Because it'd be easier to ban the culprits and not the actual problem? Despite the culprits themselves not being broken? And this is not a speed boost blaziken thing, because Scolipede is never a problem on a BP team, nor is a hazards lead smeargle ever much of a problem. It's always their ability to spread boosts, which to me doesn't show that they are broken boosters, but that the method of transferring the boosts themselves is broken.

 

[Josh Morales]

Lowest collateral in my opinion would just be to ban baton pass. The other situations it is used in (nastypass, momentum grabbing, avoiding being pursuited) are either potentially just as bad due to celebi gaining several boosting moves and be able to get to +4 in two turns, or a lot more situational and not really worth giving up a moveslot for in my opinion. We've had to nerf the move twice already, why not just ban it? Because it'd be easier to ban the culprits and not the actual problem? Despite the culprits themselves not being broken? And this is not a speed boost blaziken thing, because Scolipede is never a problem on a BP team, nor is a hazards lead smeargle ever much of a problem. It's always their ability to spread boosts, which to me doesn't show that they are broken boosters, but that the method of transferring the boosts themselves is broken.

Sorry but SDPass Celebi and NastyPass Celebi are not problematic at all, you can deal with it perfectly fine without any unnecessary trouble and the same applies to Venomoth in my opinion. Completely banning Baton Pass would cause "collateral damage".

 

[Aberforth]

You're not actually arguing why baton passing boosts isn't broken in and of itself though. You're talking about one that I used as an example and blankly stating that it's not a problem, without attacking the crux of the issue, baton passing the boosts.