ORAS Tier List V2.0

Colonel M

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Ok. Well they work great for me, so I was just inputting my opinion. But if everyone else agrees to keep them where they are that's fine.
I touched on Treecko previously on why it is a rocky assumption for S:

Treecko - Treecko has been the one that everyone really wants A barring a few people. After testing Treecko I am a little more inclined to agreeing to keeping it in A, though I would like to point out that it is pretty competitive enough in ORAS to go toe-to-toe with the S Rank boys. The Speed and access to Giga Drain is great, but sometimes the frailty and just being a Grass-type flat out sucks. IGN's statement of "too much water" should probably be replaced with "too much everything Grass is weak against for the most part". Also my Grovyle was outsped by Sharpedo once. It was hilarious. It even died in one hit via Ice Fang too. XD

Basically you have the first gym, some of the third gym, seventh, and eighth gym. Then in the E4 it is... well Drake and a Pokemon here and there.

It is good - much better than ye olden days, but it shows moments of weakness a lot and, even in AS, it can really blow because the Grimers can usually take a Dig / Earthquake and hit it pretty hard. It's a strong Pokemon though - and having it lower than A would be insulting.

As for Tailow - this one we've discussed a lot. We figure there are a couple problems:

1) Tailow wants Brave Bird to really stand out

Tailow has no access to Brave Bird besides some luck with the egg moves or evolving into a Swellow and obtaining a Heart Scale

2) Tailow relies on status to be effective

Tailow brings a problem of being a bit more reliant on carrying items such as Potions and the like. You don't want to take Tailow to the Pokemon Center often and you obviously don't want to deposit it into your box either (as that instantly heals it).

3) Tailow has so-so gym performance

Though it can crush a lot of competition (Brawly in particular) it doesn't really sweep gyms like crazy. It is much more effective as a field Pokemon.

I wouldn't be completely opposed to A Tailow since many playthroughs such as speed runs have proven Tailow's prowess (though it is a bit different from tier lists - which is the big problem with the direct comparison).


I guess while I'm at it I'll look at hard's post too. Since no one has voiced objections in my post - I will likely change the tier list throughout the week. Please don't be afraid to stand up!
Geodude (Golem)

This should be a rock solid performer from the point you get it.

Sturdy and Rock Polish make setting up a decent possibility but at the same time depending on a boost of speed lowers the value when it comes to clearing route trainers.

Its gym performances are very good apart from Sootopolis and even against the E4 it can majorly contribute if you can set up.

Apart from the route fights this does sound a lot like A.
I had a hard time keeping the argument from Lucchini on it being A. Though it's a slower Pokemon it has moments where it really shines - the Third through Sixth gym are just massive advantages for Geodude barring some rough moments (confusion blows). I also wouldn't completely knock it on the Elite 4 - it brings some utility with Stealth Rock vs Glacia and can also be useful vs Steven to bust through Aggron's Sturdy as well. It also chips Armaldo really hard. It is a bit shaky lategame, but I found it can sort of hold its weight. It's stronger presence earlier in the game helps it out too.

I backed down on it because it was only Lucchini and I arguing with Golem and no one else really came in on either side. Golem is strong, but I won't lie being slow as balls really sucks sometimes. At least it has some interesting curveballs like Smack Down and Stealth Rock to troll some Pokemon really hard (Koffing and Skarmory as two examples).
Seedot (OR)

The little hazelnut has many difficult periods to master, where your team needs to drag it through.

It even lacks most of grass types utility, so it really requires you to drag it on.

The typing is wonderful for the endgame and as a Chlorophyll sweeper it can leave a very good impression from Mossdeep onwards.
Apparently via chain of events you can get a Seedot with Beat Up. It isn't a whole lot, but it makes the early game a lot less stressful and reliant on taking a crapton of damage.
Wurmple (Beautifly)

Because of typing and quite small movepool it does suffer during many periods until it gets one of the best setup moves in late game.

Setting up in front of special attackers almost always guarantees a sweep, but such opportunities are quite rare.
I want to go back on this because I mentioned putting Beautifly and Masquerain to C, and I still can stand by it.

One thing is their earlygames are pretty rough. Surskit's is odd but better than Beautifly's, but Beautifly can escape it by Level 10. Both maybe contribute a single move in the first gym - two tops. Beautifly is probably better against Brawly since it should have STAB Gust at that point. It really isn't until the Fourth Gym where Surskit is decent, and that's just because Masquerain has came and then you can grab your Bug Buzz / Quiver Dance goodies. It's okay vs Flannery but I really still see it struggling because Sunny Day kind of hampers Bubblebeam (and crits under the sun probably suck for Masquerain). Beautifly is garbage here. Their gym performances never really pick up until Gyms 7 and 8 - and 8 is a bit better with Beautifly due to Giga Drain. The Elite Four is really rubbish for them both despite having Bug - they're great against Sydney, but they're horrible against everyone else. Masquerain has some dominance if it has a hold of Ice Beam, but as previously mentioned it still is a detour that has to be taken.

The problem isn't that they're insufficient to be used, but they're really reliant on niche circumstances to set up and their power is lacking at times. Though Masquerain has STAB Bug Buzz it deals with two gyms that take crap against it (Flannery and Winona). The best you can try to do against Norman is Intimidate the hell out of Slaking and then set up. Though I bet even a +6 Bug Buzz could fail to KO sometimes (Slaking is weaker in SpD but Masq isn't packing that much SpA either). Both just really scream lackluster to me even with Masquerain having a leg up on a setup move and a strong STAB.
So question: How is Torkoal in B-tier? Decent level-up moves yes, but 80 Attack/Special Attack will start to lag quick, not too many favorable matchups, and supremely slow.

Colonel M

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Looks like Shell Smash is only available early in XY for Torkoal.

That will knock Torkoal to C.

If no one has anything else to say on what I said for S and A I will move them and resume to B / C tier overhaul within a few days.


A distant memory
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Similar to XY I did do a run of ORAS with Exp. Share on and fighting optionals sparingly (predominately to grind) and similar to XY, I was never over-leveled except most of the time I was noticeably under-leveled throughout the game (Early 10's Gym 1, Mid 10's Gym 2, Early 20's Gym 3, Mid 20's Gym 4, Late 20's Gym 5, Early 30's Gym 6, Mid 30's Gym 7, Late 30's Gym 8, Early 40's at the end of Victory Road before grinding up Pokémon to Lv50 to have a comfortable chance of winning). This time my final party was Skarmory (Lv53 end), Swampert (Lv53 end), Hariyama (Lv53 end), Magnezone (Lv54 end), Mesprit which I know is not being tiered (Lv55 end), and Banette (Lv56 end).
  • Skarmory (Sturdy) personally felt solid but it did not really blow me away to be honest and being a lead hogger kinda solidified that. The major things Skarmory got used for generally revolved around throwing Spikes on the opponent's side of the field and spamming STAB moves. Being able to wall things to beat to death helped but it just was not spectacular. It owns Wally outside of Magneton which helps I suppose. I would personally say it is around the B or C mark tbh. Final moveset: Feint/Steel Wing/Fly/Spikes.
  • Swampert was the starter but I did not get a full experience with it because Hariyama and Skarmory hogged the lead spot too much. That said it was rather reliable and something I can count on when the chips are down and there were definitely glimpses of its S Rank potential. It is a really good Pokémon though. Final moveset: Protect/Rock Slide/Earthquake/Surf.
  • Hariyama was both annoying and useful at the same time. On one hand it is slower than molasses, has a balloon-like build which is annoying for potions, and does not get any real good Fighting-type moves outside of Force Palm and Brick Break (Close Combat sucks on this thing imo). On the other hand, Bulk Up is a godly setup move on it and it did solo four gyms (Brawly, Flannery, Norman, Wallace) and did a lot of work in the first half of the Pokémon League (Soloed Sidney, heavily damaged Phoebe and Glacia). The issue with it is that it generally has to be item supported to help in its sweeping though. A at best. Final moveset: Bulk Up/Rock Tomb/Force Palm/Knock Off.
  • Magnezone was okay though it did not get much usage in the lategame. I can definitely see its potential though with several solo options and it does hit like a truck. It definitely is not worthy of S but A is good enough. The major mark against it imo is the fact that it comes at Level 6 when your Pokémon are like Level 16/17, making it slow at the start. At least it can beat the Fishermen on Dewford Island without too much issues. Final moveset: Volt Switch/Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt/Tri-Attack.
  • Mesprit is not getting tiered for reasons but I did experiment with it. What I did find was that it was a good endgame Calm Mind user, due to being able to set up on lots of things and setting up a sweep. Wallace: sets up on Luvdisc. Wally: sets up on Altaria. Glacia: sets up on Glalie though have your X-Defends ready for Crunch. Drake: sets up on Altaria and lives a Salamence Crunch (I swept Drake with it in my run). Yeah most of those were handled elsewhere but their leads are weak enough to take advantage of in practice. If it were being tiered I would say it is probably a C mon. Coming in the endgame hurts it but it comes at a E4 ready level before Gym 8 and can sweep a lot of things. But alas, this is not being tiered so yeah. Was fun though. Final moveset: Calm Mind/Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/Extrasensory.
  • Banette was actually really useful as a Mega Banette. It outright solos Liza and Tate at Level 37 and can easily revenge kill things, including Mega Metagross after Giga Impact (Phantom Force was really good). Did not get to use it too much due to Fast Exp. growth and my equal leveling tendencies but I did notice that the Shuppet stage was fairly rutty but it does pick up after evolution. Definitely worth a C imo. Final moveset: Will-O-Wisp/Feint Attack/Phantom Force/Sucker Punch.
I also experimented with Seedot (the scripted Beat Up one) in the early game and Solrock but dropped them eventually. For Seedot, Beat Up is the only thing that stops Seedot from being a complete shitpile before evolution and even then you need six Pokémon to maximise the use of it (i.e. catch the other scripted DexNav Pokémon as well). Otherwise it was average. Solrock was not half bad in the midgame but lol Fast Exp. Curve and that its stats tend to taper off pretty badly in the lategame so I ditched it for Mesprit for fun.

Some solid thoughts on some Pokémon I used in an Exp. Share minimal trainer run I did I guess?

Now to do some legend catching and whatnot before doing another run some time in the future I suppose.

Yay 2.4k.
Actually, question - why aren't post-COO legends being ranked? I mean, I know for some of them methods are ridiculous (let's not tier Reshi/Zeki; three level 100 mons is lol), but for things like Mesprit where all you need is the right time and three Pokémon with perfect friendship - which is incredibly easy due to in-game - then I don't see much of a problem.


A distant memory
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The main argument I suppose relates to having to tier the legends and anything from Mirage Island and DexNav Pokémon since they all technically come before the endgame and 95% of those are either E or barely good enough to crack D which results in the tier list being longer than XY of all tier lists. Though if we really have to, I would personally only tier those post National Dex Pokémon that are good enough for D at least and just adding "All other National Dex Pokémon not listed." to the bottom of the E section of the game. Even then the only things I would remotely consider that could be better than E personally (wrt Legends, I do not think any of the non-legendaries are worthy of tiering) are:
  • Ho-Oh
  • Lugia
  • Uxie
  • Mesprit
  • Azelf
  • Heatran
  • Tornadus
  • Thundurus
These eight legendaries have by far the easiest and least time consuming to get (though Ho-Oh and Lugia are a stretch) and have very little impact on efficiency in terms of trying to get. Whether each of these are good enough to get out of E is another story (Mesprit is definitely not E for one imo).

As for the other legends, Regigigas is too convoluted and a lottery to get, Dialga/Palkia need you to catch the Lake Trio and are both needed to get Giratina, you wont have fully EV trained Pokémon by the E4 so the musketeers are out of the question, lol having a Lv100 mon for Reshiram/Zekrom and having both for Kyurem, Raikou/Entei/Suicune need Ho-Oh or Lugia caught to get, Landorus needs both Tornadus and Thundurus, and Cresselia is a lottery to get.

Colonel M

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Previous tier lists did not want to include non-Hoenn Dex Pokemon into this tier list. Personally I know some can make some impacts to be worthy of being even about C on a Tier List or D. I don't think any are E aside from the lottery / ReshZekKyu combo and the like.

I am open to including them but a lot of people need to chime in support for it before I do anything drastic. And they should realize very few will make it beyond E and even D.

Colonel M

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As promised I will look over the B and C Tiers and make changes from what I have stated before. The following tier changes are being made:

- Pinsir to A
- Marill to A
- Zangoose to B
- Corphish to B
- Carvanha as maybe B if we exclude its Surf factor
- Torkoal to C

I may change my mind on Pinsir and Heracross. We shall see.

Now we'll look at B / C Tier:

Kadabra is probably B to C rank. Obtaining powerful Psychic-type moves helps its case; however, it is extremely fragile and lacks the offenses of some A and S Tier Pokemon. It's decently fast though. Sucks it has no real typing advantage in any gym for the most part so it is strictly a field Pokemon.

Golem is a different scenario. Though it isn't the limelight of field Pokemon it crushes many gyms without many issues. It sucks against Brawly but creates huge openings for Wattson, Flannery, Norman, and Winona. It does lose a little bit of steam; however, it still can be somewhat effective against Team Magma and even Team Aqua's Pokemon seeing as STAB Ground really hurts Koffing and Grimer family (Smack Down takes care of Koffing), Rock-type attacks can handle Zubat (confusion is shaky to face against), and Numel / Camerupt aren't huge threats until they get Earth Power. And even then - they probably don't quite OHKO Golem. It can contribute somewhat in the Elite Four with the assistance of Stealth Rock chipping Glacia and Steven's Sturdy Aggron. It also can help against some of Steven's Pokemon decently. Falls short for A IMO due to lategame, but it still is solid for B.

Machamp is kind of the same boat. The saving grace is that Machamp has a massive 130 Attack stat and decent defenses to back up the middling Speed. You'll likely use Leg Sweep when you have access to it. As a bonus Rock Tomb can be an effective move to have on Machamp to help against Flannery or Dig to help against Wattson. Norman is probably one of its stronger moments though Slakings will likely dent Machamp pretty hard. Decent Elite 4 matchups helps too (Glacia and Sydney - Steven to some extents).

Lotad is pretty cursed by a late evolution though it is somewhat useful even as Lombre. It's one of your better Pokemon in the first gym and has some usefulness against Flannery. Water Stone and reliance of Ice Beam does hurt it a bit, though.

Pikachu (Cosplay) is pretty good. Having Lightningrod makes Flying Press Pikachu a decent matchup against Wattson and even has a little use against Norman (though don't expect miracles). It should crush Winona with the Icicle Crash variant and should have its key Light Ball item before Gym 7.

Psyduck is one that teeters B/C maybe. On one hand it is a competent Water-type that, if taught Ice Beam, has some usefulness. On the other hand the only upper hand Golduck has is Calm Mind - a later TM. Joining around Safari Zone area makes it a little shakier to stay above C tier too.

Roselia is decent for B. Grass-types are so-so in-game but they do have their moments. Roselia learns Petal Dance much later in this game though. And the evolution could come sooner. Eh.

Seedot I'm starting to be more inclined to drop to C. Whether Bide or Beat Up as the move of choice Seedot provides little-to-nothing throughout its time as a Seedot. Once it evolves into a Nuzleaf it at least is solid with STAB Razor Leaf and STAB Thief as options with Growth helping it out a bit. Honestly though Magikarp performs even worse in a way and it still is worthy of S. Granted Gyarados is a hell of a lot better than Nuzleaf too.

Skarmory has been reviewed by IAR as B and I am inclined to agree.

Spoink is one I've talked about a lot. It's B worthy IMO. Dropping it to C is kind of an insult.

Staryu won't evolve into Starmie until you beat Tate and Liza but it is pretty versatile even as Staryu. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are both huge detours though which leaves only Grass Knot for a long time. I almost wouldn't say much against this one dropping.

Surskit and Beautifly will receive a separate test from me (using Surskit).

Tailow was discussed going to A but has been turned down many times.

Tentacool is actually good once you get it up-to-par. Sludge Bomb comes after Norman which is the same time you'll have Surf too.

Torkoal will drop to C.

Trapinch takes a lot of work. Vibrava isn't too bad. Flygon is super late though (practically Elite 4). I think it may drop to C as well.

Tropius is basically an HM Slave. Once again if we discount HM utility and rank on battle performance Tropius probably will drop to C-D range.

Whismur is too slow to really escape B. It's versatile in movepool but the Speed is the major drawback. Lacking any real gym advantage sucks too. Exploud is also kind of late.

Zubat is fine as-is. A is a little too high for it honestly.


Aron is one I may consider dropping even lower, but there is no denial that once you do obtain it Aron isn't too difficult to train and it learns impressive moves via level-up. The issues aside from it being slow is that its evolution is SLOWER. Lairon is pretty late and Aggron is even later.

Baltoy is a little weaker in the attacking department but it isn't too shabby. Some things that helps are that it can learn Charge Beam and, eventually, Calm Mind. Extrasensory coming at Level 31 is pretty nice and holding it back one level from evolving nets Earth Power too.

Barboach is kind of cool. The low capture rate with Good Rod is probably its biggest shutdown. If you do get it before Tate and Liza though it gets some impressive moves such as Aqua Tail and Earthquake naturally at pretty low levels. Still it is super average and you won't likely use it very often if at all.

Cacnea is plagued by slow Speed and frailty, but it does hit pretty hard. It stinks against two gyms and rocks the other two. Also okay against Phoebe too.

Chinchou is held back by its stats and late availability more than anything, but when you do get it Chinchou is decent. You'll almost immediately hit Lanturn and... actually still... kind of sucks. The only real saving grace to Lanturn is it does okay against Team Aqua / Magma and Wallace. That's about its lifespan though.

Doduo is just really late. Dodrio isn't necessarily a bad Pokemon but is often outclassed by Tailow as an example.

Graveler just struggles way too much past Winona.

Girafarig is one of those later mons, but is okay. It's got decent match-ups against Tate and Liza (have a mon faster than Giarafarig attack, then if a target remains Assurance will KO it). If can sort of screw up Phoebe too but that's probably pushing it.

Goldeen is meh. It's a Water-type that learns Water-type moves, but they're usually on the wrong spectrum of its attack stat.

Gulpin actually isn't shabby. Just lacks strong match-ups often.

Keckleon is late. Could do well against Tate and Liza.

Koffing is... ...


Machoke does alright. It will really shine against Norman and do alright against Flannery. Outside of that it really will be weighed down. Sydney and Glacia are okay match-ups for it too.

Natu is late. Calm Mind with early access to Air Slash and Psychic is actually nice. Just the Elite 4 really curbs it into oblivion pretty quick.

Nosepass should just drop to D. It's horrid. Almost E worthy. Almost.

Vileplume and Bellossom are okay Grass-types. Vileplume has a power spike once Sludge Bomb is available.

Phanpy, or rather Donphan, is at least a good mon to have. Smack Down + Magnitude is nice. A better field Pokemon than it is a gym / Elite 4 mon. Well against Steven though.

Other Pikachu is okay - just comes super late. Light Ball helps.

Poochyena can last for a long time with its elemental fang and early access to Crunch. It eventually falls off.

Rhyhorn is late, super slow, and the Rock-type will usually do more harm than good throughout the rest of the game.

Sandshrew gets early access to Swords Dance, Dig, and Rock Tomb. Not a bad Pokemon - just lacks Gym advantages.

Seviper is just too slow. Strong, but slow.

Shuppet is nasty. Almost nasty enough to be a B Tier mon. Mega Banette is frightening with STAB Shadow Claw.

Slakoth I think is okay for B. Training it as a Slakoth is a major headache and, when Slaking fails to OHKO, it can be even worse. Vigoroth is at least solid and Slaking has enough power behind it to make it worthwhile to add to the team. Cheesing with STAB Giga Impact can help it too.

Slugma will drop to D. Level 38 for an evolution? No fucking way.

Glalie is strong. Snorunt stage is a little bit annoying and training it to Glalie can suck, but once you have Glalie it rocks. If you funnel experience early into it Glalie will rock Wallace and obviously will clean house against Drake.

Spheal is just super late. A good Water / Ice-type for later in the game. Walrein is late, but Sealeo is "adequate". STAB Aurora Beam helps if you don't backtrack for Ice Beam.

Swablu is plagued if you get it super early. Actually if you Soar that's where you get Swablu at its best. A Rare Candy and some Heart Scales helps make it into Altaria and into a prominent Pokemon. At least once you have Altaria you're going to rock - especially with the help of the Mega evolution.

Voltorb requires a backtrack. Strong against Winona and Wallace. Kind of about it.

Vulpix without its coveted Drought is a little lacking in power. Ninetales can shut down Glacia pretty quick with Nasty Plot.

Dustox is pretty horrible. Almost D-worthy horrible.

Zigzagoon is helpful earlygame. Outside of that Linoone is likely benched.
Well if we're talking in terms of efficiency, I still found Linoone extremely useful as an HM slave on the team while like 4-5 other Pokémon done the battling. Surf, Rock Smash and Strength is very good for HM slaving at least for the early game, and it can still offer back-up just after you convert it to slave status.
Concerning Roselia, I was actually very fine using it on my team. Base 100 Sp. Attack + Growth at the point of capture is a great asset, and once Roselia got hold of Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb, it could land OHKOs on plenty of Pokémon, including those from weak Team Magma Grunts.
I also chose not to use the Shiny Stone but instead opted to have fun with Eviolite Roselia for the endgame, and it still held its own okay. Late game wasn't too kind to it, though this was more of an issue of finding good type matchups than an issue of stats (The plethora of Water-types was nice, though). Eviolite gave Roselia the necessary bulk to handle certain matchups at the Pokémon League when other members of my team were worn down, plus I somehow managed to 1v1 Steven's Claydol despite Roselia being 12 LV's under (Note: this means it never did get to Petal Dance and it barely missed out on Synthesis, both of which I really would've liked to have). It's at least a solid B for sure.
Voltorb doesn't require backtracking, it can be caught on Route 110. That said, I don't think that helps its case much.
Yeah, there's very few cases it'd actually be useful - I mean, it can't do anything to Wattson really, it has a hard time with the ground-types starting at the route above and doesn't appreciate Flannery's numel; it does as well against Norman as just about anything else...
Concerning Mightyena, I think it should be B. It can be caught almost immediately, and even has whatever Fang will cover your starter's weakness. It evolves insanely early (Level 18), and has a very good moveset (Crunch and Sucker Punch, Taunt, Shadow Ball). I used one in my OR run and demolished the Psychic twins paired up with my Swampert.
Concerning Mightyena, I think it should be B. It can be caught almost immediately, and even has whatever Fang will cover your starter's weakness. It evolves insanely early (Level 18), and has a very good moveset (Crunch and Sucker Punch, Taunt, Shadow Ball). I used one in my OR run and demolished the Psychic twins paired up with my Swampert.
What does Shadow Ball do for you? It has the exact same coverage as your STAB Dark moves and goes off of your weaker Special Attack stat.

Colonel M

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As there has been no objections I will now change the following:

Marill from S to A
Zangoose from A to B
Corphish from A to B
Carvanha from A to B
Slakoth from C to B

I am also going to tunnel discussion for S and A Tier Pokemon only for the time being to help promote discussion. I would like people to bear in mind that S and A may not take very long and we may hop to B / C very shortly.

This will also include where to drop Wingull (whether B or C).
I'll chime in on this. Warning, wall of text.

Current S rank. Proposed changes to Latias.

Alakazam - S rank

High SpA with blistering speed and powerful coverage moves throughout the game cements its position. You can either use Brawly's gym to level it up or level it using Granite Cave and the surrounding battles; either way it rocks from there. It gets access to Alakazite following the Lati sidequest which turns it up to an 11. The only downside is having to wait until Dewford to capture Abra, but I think that is an advantage as it tends to be easier to baby the later you get it.

Latias - S -> A rank

Significant bulk with high speed and great SpA. She even arrives with access to her mega evolution as soon as you get her. Unfortunately, I think Latias' main downfall is her lack of high-powered moves until the late game, which coincidentally is also when she gets the majority of her coverage options. She has to manage with Mist Ball (low PP), Dragonbreath, and Surf until Sootopolis City, where Draco Meteor awaits and moves like Thunderbolt become available. She fares well in all of her gym battles but the E4 can prove difficult as she is weak to all of them and doesn't even have Dragon Pulse for Drake until Lv56. Ice Beam would do but requires backtracking.

Latios - S rank

Latios is similar to Latias, but I think his higher offenses and ability to use physical attacks + Dragon Dance set him apart and allow him to stay in S. Latios can rock DD / Zen Headbutt / Dragonbreath / Surf until the late game, especially since his mega evolution grants him base 130 attack along with his base 160 SpA. He fares just as well as Latias does in the gyms (if not better due to his power), and has an easier time in the E4 due to said access to DD. He also stands a fighting chance against Steven with DD+Earthquake as he can use Cradily / Claydol as setup fodder. Notably, Latios is a better choice against Primal Groudon than Latias is against Primal Kyogre as he is outright immune to its ground STAB and resists Lava Plume while Latias suffers a weakness to Ice Beam and is not immune to OPulse.

Magikarp - S rank

Gyarados has been a beast since Gen 4, essentially, and ORAS is no different. With great stats and Intimidate as well as high attack power, Gyara is a formidable pokemon throughout the game, aside from a short period of babying as Magikarp. It can be fished out early around Lv 15 and trained up using local trainers, Brawly's gym, and some trainers thereafter. It is limited to essentially Bite and Tackle upon evolution but Dragon Rage at Lv 23 is enough to hold it over until Thrash can be taught at Fallarbor Town. Bulldoze is available at the Mauville mart which gives Gyarados ground coverage for this gym and the next. It should have Ice Fang by Winona (important, as Ice Beam is now unavailable at this point and Altaria has Cotton Guard) and Crunch by the time it gets to Tate and Liza, granting it powerful dark STAB to use in the future battles. Dragon Dance allows it to clean up Wallace and the E4.

Mudkip - S rank

Mudkip maintains the standard it set back in the original games. It is the first pokemon you obtain, has excellent stats, and has a power spike just after Norman when you start to need it. Water / Ground is phenomenal typing and it has a movepool that allows it to cover what it needs to. It performs well against Roxanne and while Brawly can be a bit challenging, it usually has the power to come out on top (or Bide). Ground typing makes it useful against gyms 3 and 4 and it picks up Rock Slide in time to cover Winona. A moveset of Waterfall / Earthquake / Rock Slide / Rain Dance puts in work toward the endgame and patches up its only shortcoming - speed. That said, it is a water-type in a game that is full of them so the opportunity cost of losing Torchic or Treecko is something to consider.

Torchic - S rank

ORAS patches up the few issues that Torchic had in the originals. For starters, Torchic has high offensive stats, great offensive typing once it evolves, and a good movepool. It is also one of few fire-types in the game, the others either being slow and relatively weak or coming too late to be useful. Fire-typing allows Torchic to power through all of the early game grass- and bug-types, while evolution into Combusken gives it 60 BP fighting STAB and an advantage against the first gym. Combusken fares well in gym 2 and can then immediately be taught Bulk Up; it gets Flame Charge at level 20. It suffers a bit midgame, as it has to face off against more water-, flying-, and ground-type moves courtesy of team magma / aqua and it doesn't really have the bulk to stand out against Norman. However, it is smooth sailing once it evolves to Blaziken, which has an immediate Blaze Kick and access to the extremely powerful HJK via Heart Scale. The water-types of the late game are easily overpowered by HJK and those with lower defenses can fall even to Slash, but it may need to take a back seat against the final two gyms. Blaziken is very effective against the E4 and Champion given its typing, and it can use SD + speed boost to power through Phoebe and Drake.

Current A rank. Proposed changes to Electrike / Mawile / Meditite / Ralts / Treecko / Wingull.

Absol - A rank

My greatest reservations with Absol in A are that it comes rather late, is underleved, and is somewhat frail. After thinking it over, however, I think access to SD + Night Slash should be enough to hold it over as it catches up to the rest of the team. Its mega evolution has high mixed offenses and speed (plus Magic Bounce protects it from status and debuffs), though its access to coverage moves is somewhat limited by gameplay elements. Bonus points for faring well in gym 7 and the E4, however.

Electrike - A -> B rank

I don't think Electrike is A material, tbh. While it does get an earlier Spark, it loses access to special Dark attacks (which would help against Wattson) and is forced to rely on its lower offensive stat until Charge Beam and Volt Switch. Remember that it is also rather frail and has few noteworthy resistances after Wattson. Charge Beam is admittedly a decent move but I find that it is still rather weak and isn't guaranteed the SpA boost; Volt Switch makes you switch out. It fares better against Team Aqua than Magma but isn't impressive at all against Flannery or Norman and can't mega evolve until after the Lati sidequest. At that point, it starts to pick up, boasting SE hits on Winona and the sea routes of Hoenn as well as much stronger power with Intimidate as well. Overheat + Hidden Power (despite being rather weak) helps to round out its coverage. If I had to sum it up, you either catch and use Electrike as soon as you can but then struggle for a few badges before getting good (ie B material) or you wait until you can Surf, catch it at a level closer to evolution but still much lower than your other mons, and use it when it has actual advantages (still B material).

Groudon - A rank

Groudon is easily one of the best pokemon available in Omega Ruby. Behemoth physical stats and good bulk / speed as regular Groudon which are augmented to titanic levels in its primal form, it boasts great offensive typing and a killer ability as well as an expansive movepool. Additionally, it comes with at least 3 perfect IVs as a member of the sterile breeding group. I can't think of anything that can truly stand up to it for the remainder of the game. In my opinion, its ideal movepool is PBlades / Lave Plume / Solarbeam / Dragon Claw. Such a set allows it to sweep the 8th gym, victory road, and the E4 in one fell swoop; the only downside is that Solarbeam requires you to have made a detour through the Safari Zone earlier in the game and Dragon Claw requires you trekking all the way back to Meteor Falls.

Heracross - A rank

Despite being a rather late addition to the team, Heracross is clear A-rank material. Good dual STABs, bulk, sky-high attack (especially as mega), and acceptable speed make it a good choice. It is caught already knowing Brick Break and gets Pin Missile 1-3 levels later, with Megahorn shortly thereafter. Heracronite is actually available before Tate and Lize, but using it in this gym may be risky as it is weak to Psychic despite its Bug-type advantage. Still, it hits extremely hard in all of the following matches and is capable of pulling its weight. The E4 falls to it easily (Phoebe can be managed with Shadow Claw if you caught a Guts one) and it is helpful against Steven to an extent. Its downfalls include late acquisition and below-average speed but I think its positive traits make up for it.

Kyogre - A rank

See Groudon, pretty much. If anything, Kyogre is even better as its STAB is boosted by permanent rain and its ideal moveset hardly requires any detours (just buy Thunder at Lilycove). While Groudon is immune to the 8th gym, Kyogre simply overpowers the other water-types and its greatest fear is Sweet Kiss confusion and the like, which is not likely to be an issue. It fares just as well as Groudon against the E4 and champion given its monstrous offense and decent speed. Its lateness is the only reason it isn't S.

Magnemite - A rank

I was also borderline on this one but decided I was being a bit harsh in the end. Magnemite has a tough early game. It is obtained via Horde using Sweet Scent (Sturdy or the rare analytic would be best) at Lv 6, meaning that it has significant catching up to do. Fortunately, Sonicboom helps a bit. Magnemite is of average performance against major bosses and fights until Norman, but it performs much better in the field thanks to coveted Steel typing and the good neutral coverage of the electric-type. If you can get Magneton by the time you fight Norman (you should), its high defense helps there, too. After that, mid-late game is where it really shines. it is a similar story to Manectric, only you trade speed for bulk with substantially more power and a secondary typing without needing to mega evolve. Magnezone can be obtained via a quick detour to New Mauville once Wally warps you back to Mauville; a moveset of Flash Cannon / Volt Switch / Tri Attack / Thunder Wave could theoretically carry you until the end of the game, but you do get Discharge and Hidden Power as other options. It's low speed is somewhat of a let down but honestly it isn't that important considering it resists 12 types.

Makuhita - A rank

Makuhita is pretty consistent throughout the game. It's a hard hitter with slightly above average bulk and low speed. If obtained via Slakoth trade (it should be, DexNav makes Slakoth easy to find), it gets accelerated experience points and is useable for Roxanne's gym. It performs well in the early-mid game gyms and then becomes better for field trainers later on in the game, but by then other team members can help pick up the slack. Fighting / Dark is essentially perfect coverage as the fairy type is pretty rare in this game, which leaves Hariyama with two open slots for Strength or whatever you need. Unfortunately, it is outsped by many things and this leaves it prone to status and frequent healing (though Guts remedies this somewhat). Team magma / aqua can be annoying as they have Zubat and Golbat that can frustrate Hariyama; it regains some use late-game against the E4 and champion.

Marill - A rank

Like XY, Marill has excellent typing for progression through ORAS, and its revamped level up movepool is even more conducive to this. Though I wouldn't recommend its use against Wattson, it does very well against Flannery and has the bulk to take on Norman and the rest of the gyms. STAB Huge Power Aqua Tail / Play Rough by level 25 is ungodly; throw in Facade or Strength to complete the coverage as nothing in the game resists it. Azumarill is also a naturally good user of Dive and Waterfall if necessary. Like Hariyama, Azumarill's biggest downfall is its low speed, leaving it prone to status and chip damage. It also has a weakness to poison, which can come into play against the Golbat / Weezing / Muk of Team Magma / Aqua. Otherwise, it has a good matchup against most trainers both in and out of boss battles and deserves its A rank.

Mawile - A -> B rank

I don't think Mawile is A rank material. For starters, it requires backtracking to Granite Cave to get it once you've beaten Wattson and comes at a whopping Lv 12, requiring serious babying. It fares well against most field trainers but dislikes the various ground- and fire-types (Numel) found on the way to Lavaridge. It does get access to early Iron Head and Play Rough by Fallarbor (significant as it requires 2 heart scales that other pokemon may need, instead of the usual 1) but is not useful in Flannery's gym with its low speed and weakness to fire. It does pick up against Norman and beyond, especially with Mega evolution, but it is still quite slow. I feel like Mawile is in an awkward place as you either have to backtrack and baby it but still have to wait a while for the payoff, or catch it in the cave of origin where it has missed out on its peak usefulness. That said, it does have a really good matchup against the E4 with Fairy / Dark / Steel coverage.

Meditite - A -> B rank

Meditite also belongs in B rank, I think. It comes around the same time as Absol, which I gave A rank, but I think there are a few key differences. For one, Meditite is extremely frail with piddly 30/55/55 defenses. It relies on HJK for all of its damage output which is strong but risky, and it is still 5 levels away from evolution. Once it evolves into Medicham, it will need a Heart Scale for Zen Headbutt and possibly one of the punches depending on your needs. Mega Cham is sufficiently fast and strong that nothing can stand in its way. However, Medicham does not have any gym advantages and can find itself outsped by a variety of pokemon, many of them being Team magma / aqua's Golbat given the teams greater presence late-game. Medicham still remains as frail as ever, though to be fair it will knock out most pokemon in one hit. It fares well against half the E4 and is alright against the others, and does decently against Steven as well. If I had to sum it up, Medicham is a great pokemon that would benefit from coming a bit earlier in the game and maybe being a little faster. I think B is fine for it.

Camerupt - A rank

This thing is great. It is pretty much the only viable Fire-type in the game outside of Torchic. Fortunately, Numel comes relatively early in the game, has immediate power thanks to Magnitude and Flame Burst (upgraded to Lava Plum and Earth Power by level 26) and good offensive typing. As Camerupt, it gains Rock Slide and average bulk with 70 / 70 / 75 defenses and 100+ offenses. This pokemon performs best early-mid game as late Hoenn has alot of water; OR players will find a short period of relief during Groudon's Desolate Land, which can actually be used for training via Solarbeam and a water immunity. Camerupt has a neutral matchup against many of the gym leaders and E4 but its high-powered STABs and good offensive stats keep it relevant throughout the game.

Ralts - A -> S rank

Ralts is one of those pokemon that has pretty much always been controversial. The root of the issue is this: does the time spent as Ralts / Kirlia justify the wait until Garde? I think the answer is yes, for ORAS at least. Unlike XY, Ralts and Kirlia have useable Fairy STAB early on in the game in the form of Disarming Voice AND a gym where they can excel thanks to a 4x resist and SE offensive coverage. Early Hoenn has a bunch of Poochyena for Ralts while mid Hoenn sees alot more poison, though they don't actually have great poison coverage (Gulpin / Zubat / Roselia) - this works out in Ralts and Kirlia's favor. I think this lessens the earlier forms' dependence on babying in the early game, especially since Magical Leaf helps with mid-game water- and ground-types. Kirlia even has Lv 23 Draining Kiss to offer some longevity and it pairs well with Calm Mind at 26. Gardevoir is even more beastly in this game than in Kalos. Psychic comes at Lv 30 as Kirlia and Moonblast is just a heart scale away, giving Garde some of the strongest power and coverage in the game up to and even beyond that point. By Lilycove, it gains the Focus Blast and Shadow Ball TMs for appropriate coverage. Finally, Gardevoir gets another power spike just after the climate crisis resolves, as its mega stone becomes available at Wally's house. Mega Garde can sweep the E4 with a set of Moonblast / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / filler.

Shroomish - A rank

A tier is fine for Shroomish. It excels against the first gym and Mega Drain can hold it over until it becomes Breloom around Wattson's gym; Mach Punch / Mega Drain / Rock Tomb / filler covers it from there. You can be hopeful and get lucky with Seed Bomb or Bullet seed early on even though I know we aren't counting on that. Breloom has high power and decent bulk / speed, allowing it to sweep Wattson and even come out on top against Flannery's Slugma / Numel as it outruns them. It fares decently against Norman due to being able to take a hit for the 2HKO with Mach Punch and another fighting move. It fares a bit worse against the remaining gyms and struggles a bit against team Aqua / Magma, but you can't have it all. The E4 is not a worthwhile endeavor outside of Sydney and maybe Glacia. Solid A rank.

Treecko - A -> S rank

Another controversial one. I feel like Treecko is similar to Electrike and Magnemite in that while they can be obtained early, they tend to shine more late-game. The main difference is that Treecko requires no extra effort to obtain or train up; it is also the best grass-type pokemon in the game. Treecko's Absorb is adequate for the very early game since you're mainly seeing Wurmple and Shroomish as is and Mega Drain comes in time for Roxanne. Rock Tomb is immediately teachable for flying- and bug-type pokemon. It can usually 2HKO Brawly's pokemon through Mega Drain -> overgrow Mega Drain but its a risky strategy and best to use another pokemon like Taillow or Ralts for him. Treecko should have Giga Drain by the time it gets to Wattson and has access to Low Sweep via TM, so he can handle this gym although not efficiently as Marshtomp or Combusken.

Grovyle is fast and strong enough to OHKO Zubats with Rock Tomb and Giga Drain will for sure KO Carvanha. Numel can be a bit tricky. Mine could stomach no more than one Wing Attack / Air Cutter from Golbat but Rock Tomb is a 2HKO so there is some use there. Grovyle fares alright in Flannery's gym thanks to Dig being 80BP now, and it can take some of the non Fire-types like Meditite and Kecleon, but it should not be relied on against Flannery as Overheat, Sunny Day, and Light Screen make its life hard. I haven't tried it, but I imagine that if you somehow managed to SD on Slugma you could potentially Dig your way to victory.

Grovyle is too frail for Norman but can manage in his gym as living a hit + overgrow Giga Drain usually kills. Once mega, Sceptile can clean house for the rest of the game. Using a heart scale for Leaf Storm is doable but not really necessary as it can do all it needs to with SD / Dual Chop / Dig / Giga Drain. You can use Rock Tomb as necessary for Winona's gym but STAB Dual Chop is as effective and much better against Altaria. Sceptile sweeps the sea routes and remaining two gyms thanks to its high speed and natural advantage, which has the added benefit of keeping it healthy as well. It has a neutral matchup against most of the E4 (avoid Glacia) but can beat Drake by using SD before mega-evolving and then using Dual Chop on the turn it Mega evolves.

Wingull - A -> B rank

I like Wingull. It has the perfect typing for early and even mid-game somewhat, but I think its stats let it down as the game goes on. Roxanne is a gamble as Geodude will survive with Sturdy and Wingull doesn't like the speed drop / damage from Rock Tomb; it'll normally come out on top though. Early Wing Attack keeps it useful against the early grass- and bug-types and gives it an edge in Brawly's gym, but Wattson is a no-go for sure. It does well against Flannery thanks to Water Pulse and is a great choice for Norman thanks to base 100 defense and Protect shutting down the Slakings. After this point, though, it tapers off. Base 85 SpA is adequate to use with Surf but its best flying STAB is inaccurate and it otherwise has base 50 attack. It isn't particularly powerful and is also slow and not super bulky, which leaves it wanting in later battles despite access to Roost. It is far too weak to be of use against the E4. Generally speaking, I think Pelipper is great early game but the fact that it just falls off after the 5th gym lets it down; it is also totally outclassed by Gyarados with the exception of Dewford island when you still have Magikarp. As an example:

Lv 28 Gyarados 16 IV / 0 EVs Thrash vs. Lv 28 20 IV / 0 EVs Vigoroth: (40.91% - 48.86%)
Lv 28 Pelipper 16 IV / 0 EVs Water Pulse vs. Lv 28 20 IV / 0 EVs Vigoroth: (30.68% - 37.50%)

Even despite having STAB Water Pulse, Pelipper is outdamaged. It doesn't start to win until Surf comes along to even things up for Winona but by then, Gyarados should have Aqua Tail (and Ice Fang makes it moot anyway).

Man that was alot. I already know Treecko and Ralts are controversial but whatever, just my 20 cents.
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I think Mawile is good where it is, especially since its hidden ability is available in-game and most of its physical movepool benefits from it.

Colonel M

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I'll evaluate it later, but due to Swarm mechanics Analytic Magnemite is a rare (but possible) ability. Wouldn't note much on it though.


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Magnemite is better off with Sturdy anyway as preventing a OHKO is always a very valuable asset. It is not S though as the initial lag time and several bad matchups hold it back.

Unrelated but would it be possible to get a list of "mandatory" trainers and what they use similar to the spreadsheet in the XY Tier List Thread? It would probably be helpful with regards to helping narrow down good "field" mons and whatnot though you would beat more trainers anyway because experience with exp share on shows you reach the pokemon league with pokemon around lv40.
I'd choose Analytic Magnemite in-game anytime, actually. Dealing 30% extra damage to faster enemies (which is a lot of threats Magnemite and Magnezone face; Magneton is sorta fast though) is much better than switching into a priori disadvantageous matchups (you may not always be at full HP ingame, too).

The only problem is the low odds (no idea what exactly) of encountering said Magnemite. It doesn't look like there's an efficient way of finding out which Magnemite in a horde has the ability earlygame.

Colonel M

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Unrelated but would it be possible to get a list of "mandatory" trainers and what they use similar to the spreadsheet in the XY Tier List Thread? It would probably be helpful with regards to helping narrow down good "field" mons and whatnot though you would beat more trainers anyway because experience with exp share on shows you reach the pokemon league with pokemon around lv40.
If you (desperately) want it I can; however, I would like to note that the majority of the time other websites have a lot of the stuff documented (Serebii does okay on this - even including rematches).

http://serebii.net/pokearth/hoenn/ - as an example. Click route. Get wild Pokemon and trainers.
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