ORAS Tier List V2.0

Why's Trapinch as high as the likes of Zangoose, Taillow and Machamp? The Pokémon in B-rank not only have a good endgame but they can pull their weight as soon as you catch them too; maybe they have a few bad match-ups (Taillow vs Roxanne) but they're still at the point they're good, viable team members. Trapinch is a downright liability on your team until Level 45; which means from about Gym 5 to Gym 7 you have a waste of a team slot. And considering Exp. Share isn't factored into this...
It doesn't even have that good of an end-game. It's offensive stats are a real let-down, there's better Earthquakers in the game and if you really need something to deal with Drake there's plenty of good water-types in the game with access to Ice Beam. Trapinch B > C imo; it has pretty much the same problems as Rhyhorn, Aron and Swablu aside from speed, if not worse.
 
Why's Trapinch as high as the likes of Zangoose, Taillow and Machamp? The Pokémon in B-rank not only have a good endgame but they can pull their weight as soon as you catch them too; maybe they have a few bad match-ups (Taillow vs Roxanne) but they're still at the point they're good, viable team members. Trapinch is a downright liability on your team until Level 45; which means from about Gym 5 to Gym 7 you have a waste of a team slot. And considering Exp. Share isn't factored into this...
It doesn't even have that good of an end-game. It's offensive stats are a real let-down, there's better Earthquakers in the game and if you really need something to deal with Drake there's plenty of good water-types in the game with access to Ice Beam. Trapinch B > C imo; it has pretty much the same problems as Rhyhorn, Aron and Swablu aside from speed, if not worse.
I think Trapinch is fine for B rank (it would be solid B for sure if it came before Flannery's gym, shame). Although ground-typing starts to lose its luster mid-game, Trapinch and Vibrava are fine. Caught at Lv 22, it knows Dig / Crunch / Rock Slide / Sand Tomb and learns Earthquake by Lv 33. It can use Roost / Earthquake / Rock Slide / Crunch + Eviolite as a Vibrava and then Flygon is strong for the rest of the game. The main drawbacks are Trapinch's low speed and Vibrava's relative weakness, but I don't think they're bad enough to push it to C.

If only GF's design team had been able to fining with that Mega Flygon they were working on in time for the games' release. Hopefully they'll have it done by the time X2/Y2/Z comes out.
 

Slugma
Availability: Fiery Path
Typing: Pure Fire-type, which is bad enough until it evolves into Magcargo, which has a 4x weakness to Water- and Ground-types, just in time for all the water routes in Hoenn.
Stats: As Slugma, its stats are an unimpressive 40/40/40/70/40/20. Once it evolves into Magcargo (which isn't until level 38, mind you), its stats are still only 50/50/120/80/80/30. A pitiful 30 speed when fully evolved means that Slugma isn't outrunning anything anytime soon.
Movepool: Although Magcargo has a decent movepool featuring Rock Slide, Earth Power, Flamethrower and Fire Blast, its terrible offensive stats mean it can't do much to anything.
Major Battles: Unless you've evolved this thing to Magcargo by the time you get to Winona, Slugma is basically dead weight. It's useless against Wallace, and the only Elite Four member it actually beats is Glacia (though this is offset by her Walrein). Steve's Aggron, Cradily, and Armaldo all resist this thing, and Aggron can OHKO it with Earthquake.
Other: Slugma's only use is the fact that it gets both Magma Armor and Flame Body. If you can time it right, you can use this thing as death fodder to get a burn on an opponent.
 

Colonel M

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Alright, let's take a look at those responses I should've addressed like 20 days ago. Erm, 30.

Sorry.
Significant bulk with high speed and great SpA. She even arrives with access to her mega evolution as soon as you get her. Unfortunately, I think Latias' main downfall is her lack of high-powered moves until the late game, which coincidentally is also when she gets the majority of her coverage options. She has to manage with Mist Ball (low PP), Dragonbreath, and Surf until Sootopolis City, where Draco Meteor awaits and moves like Thunderbolt become available. She fares well in all of her gym battles but the E4 can prove difficult as she is weak to all of them and doesn't even have Dragon Pulse for Drake until Lv56. Ice Beam would do but requires backtracking.
Latios is similar to Latias, but I think his higher offenses and ability to use physical attacks + Dragon Dance set him apart and allow him to stay in S. Latios can rock DD / Zen Headbutt / Dragonbreath / Surf until the late game, especially since his mega evolution grants him base 130 attack along with his base 160 SpA. He fares just as well as Latias does in the gyms (if not better due to his power), and has an easier time in the E4 due to said access to DD. He also stands a fighting chance against Steven with DD+Earthquake as he can use Cradily / Claydol as setup fodder. Notably, Latios is a better choice against Primal Groudon than Latias is against Primal Kyogre as he is outright immune to its ground STAB and resists Lava Plume while Latias suffers a weakness to Ice Beam and is not immune to OPulse.
Uh, you do realize that Latios AND Latias are the same typing and have the same abilities, correct?

I'm not sure if Dragon Dance is really helping Latios either. For starters there aren't many physical attacks that come around when Latios has access to Dragon Dance. Earthquake is kind of late and Zen Headbutt doesn't make an appearance until Level 41. Dragon Claw requires one hell of a detour and isn't available until after Wallace either. The best moves you have are:

- Bulldoze
- Shadow Claw
- Aerial Ace
- Steel Wing

I mean later on Dragon Dance -might- be decent, but we're really stretching it. I would go as far to say that Calm Mind is better. Furthermore, Latias can still set up on those specified targets - arguably better because of the padded SpD that she has.
I don't think Electrike is A material, tbh. While it does get an earlier Spark, it loses access to special Dark attacks (which would help against Wattson) and is forced to rely on its lower offensive stat until Charge Beam and Volt Switch. Remember that it is also rather frail and has few noteworthy resistances after Wattson. Charge Beam is admittedly a decent move but I find that it is still rather weak and isn't guaranteed the SpA boost; Volt Switch makes you switch out. It fares better against Team Aqua than Magma but isn't impressive at all against Flannery or Norman and can't mega evolve until after the Lati sidequest. At that point, it starts to pick up, boasting SE hits on Winona and the sea routes of Hoenn as well as much stronger power with Intimidate as well. Overheat + Hidden Power (despite being rather weak) helps to round out its coverage. If I had to sum it up, you either catch and use Electrike as soon as you can but then struggle for a few badges before getting good (ie B material) or you wait until you can Surf, catch it at a level closer to evolution but still much lower than your other mons, and use it when it has actual advantages (still B material).
Possibly. One thing that is that its performance against gym leaders is so-so. It fares well against Winona and Wallace, but Tate and Liza don't really mind Manectric and neither does Flannery / Norman. Actually, I would argue Electrike does bad in those gyms since you won't ever see a Manectric last long against a Slaking and Slugma can set up Light Screen to neuter Electrike for a while - then Numel just shuts it down completely.

I'm inclined to agree. Maybe A was a bit too rash.
I don't think Mawile is A rank material. For starters, it requires backtracking to Granite Cave to get it once you've beaten Wattson and comes at a whopping Lv 12, requiring serious babying. It fares well against most field trainers but dislikes the various ground- and fire-types (Numel) found on the way to Lavaridge. It does get access to early Iron Head and Play Rough by Fallarbor (significant as it requires 2 heart scales that other pokemon may need, instead of the usual 1) but is not useful in Flannery's gym with its low speed and weakness to fire. It does pick up against Norman and beyond, especially with Mega evolution, but it is still quite slow. I feel like Mawile is in an awkward place as you either have to backtrack and baby it but still have to wait a while for the payoff, or catch it in the cave of origin where it has missed out on its peak usefulness. That said, it does have a really good matchup against the E4 with Fairy / Dark / Steel coverage.
I might pass that to Lucchini as he / she? has had more use with Mawile. The backtrack is a pain in the ass, but it is notable that beyond Flannery it really destroys everything in its wake. That being said - I could see B and I have not completely opposed it.
Ralts is one of those pokemon that has pretty much always been controversial. The root of the issue is this: does the time spent as Ralts / Kirlia justify the wait until Garde? I think the answer is yes, for ORAS at least. Unlike XY, Ralts and Kirlia have useable Fairy STAB early on in the game in the form of Disarming Voice AND a gym where they can excel thanks to a 4x resist and SE offensive coverage. Early Hoenn has a bunch of Poochyena for Ralts while mid Hoenn sees alot more poison, though they don't actually have great poison coverage (Gulpin / Zubat / Roselia) - this works out in Ralts and Kirlia's favor. I think this lessens the earlier forms' dependence on babying in the early game, especially since Magical Leaf helps with mid-game water- and ground-types. Kirlia even has Lv 23 Draining Kiss to offer some longevity and it pairs well with Calm Mind at 26. Gardevoir is even more beastly in this game than in Kalos. Psychic comes at Lv 30 as Kirlia and Moonblast is just a heart scale away, giving Garde some of the strongest power and coverage in the game up to and even beyond that point. By Lilycove, it gains the Focus Blast and Shadow Ball TMs for appropriate coverage. Finally, Gardevoir gets another power spike just after the climate crisis resolves, as its mega stone becomes available at Wally's house. Mega Garde can sweep the E4 with a set of Moonblast / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / filler.
Something to note though is beyond Brawley Ralts and Kirlia are really rough to use. You're probably only doing good in situations where you can hit SE - and in situations like Roselia and co you're running a dangerous game because Confusion will likely fail to OHKO them. I remember Grimers being a plague for Kirlia just because their higher SpD guaranteed survival and STAB Sludge will still pound on Kirlia. Once it's Gardevoir we're pretty gravy - though I will note that Gardevoir does suffer situations where it can't OHKO some stuff (Muk can shockingly live a STAB Psychic). Else it is one I'm on the fence on and many people have felt it was safer to be considered an A Rank. I personally agree if only because Ralts and Kirlia's performance is quite the roller coaster.
Treecko and Wingull
I think if I can get one more solid support for S Treecko... I'll do it. As for Wingull - was going to B anyway.
 
Alright, let's take a look at those responses I should've addressed like 20 days ago. Erm, 30.

Uh, you do realize that Latios AND Latias are the same typing and have the same abilities, correct?

I'm not sure if Dragon Dance is really helping Latios either. For starters there aren't many physical attacks that come around when Latios has access to Dragon Dance. Earthquake is kind of late and Zen Headbutt doesn't make an appearance until Level 41. Dragon Claw requires one hell of a detour and isn't available until after Wallace either. The best moves you have are:

- Bulldoze
- Shadow Claw
- Aerial Ace
- Steel Wing

I mean later on Dragon Dance -might- be decent, but we're really stretching it. I would go as far to say that Calm Mind is better. Furthermore, Latias can still set up on those specified targets - arguably better because of the padded SpD that she has.
I'm aware they have the same typing and ability, but Latios is only available in Ruby and Latias in Sapphire, meaning that only Latios faces Groudon and Latias faces Kyogre. In that respect, Latias has a worse time against Kyogre than Latios does against Groudon, which is what I was trying to get across. I'll agree that they're fairly even though, I just preferred Latios' increased offense for those early few levels where their move options are limited in base power.

I see your points on Ralts and Treecko, but I'll still vouch for them ha.
 
I think if I can get one more solid support for S Treecko... I'll do it.
It can learn False Swipe.
This in combination with its (very very) early access was actually a very big point in my decision to choose it.

Downsides to False Swipe Sceptile:
- Losing a move-slot
- Its base Attack is 85 when not Mega-Evolved
- No status-move (though let's be honest, no one is going to train their Shroomish to level 40 before evolving it anyway)

Upsides to False Swipe Sceptile:
- Mega-Evolution for more power (base to 110)
- Mega-Evolution for a different typing (if you want to catch Fire-types)
- It is very fast, which helps quite a lot when catching Pokemon, so you don't have to take a hit before getting it in the red and throwing your Pokeball(s) of choice.
- In comparison to the other Rank A False Swipers, it is both bulkier and faster than Absol and Breloom, it is a lot faster than Mawile and doesn't rely on its Mega-Evolution to function, and it is faster and a lot earlier accessible than Heracross. There are no False Swipers in S Rank, so this basically means Sceptile would be your best choice.

Notes:
- No Status move doesn't trouble it really, you only really need it for Pokemon with a very low Catch Rate (like Legends), and Thunder Wave is compatible with a lot of different Pokemon (including the guaranteed Lati@s). Besides, Breloom wouldn't stand a chance against Groudon anyway (Omega Ruby players will in most cases need something with Yawn or Hypnosis in order to status it). Oh, talking about Groudon, the only other high ranked False Swipe Pokemon not weak to Fire and/or Ground is Absol, and compared to that one, Mega-Sceptile suddenly seems very bulky.
- False Swipe is basically required if you want to play through the game. Because you need to use it to catch Pokemon, including your Legends, new team-mates, and random Dex fodder. It can also help farm Berries/Evolution Stones/Rare Candies from Inver.
- It is beneficial to use one of your team Pokemon as your False Swiper, because you will probably carry it around all the time and it has the chance to be naturally well-leveled. I can personally find it very annoying to train and maintain dedicated mules alongside my regular storyline team (and because of this I also choose Pokemon at a catch-ready evolutionary stage to be my HM mules).
 
It can learn False Swipe.
This in combination with its (very very) early access was actually a very big point in my decision to choose it.

Downsides to False Swipe Sceptile:
- Losing a move-slot
- Its base Attack is 85 when not Mega-Evolved
- No status-move (though let's be honest, no one is going to train their Shroomish to level 40 before evolving it anyway)

Upsides to False Swipe Sceptile:
- Mega-Evolution for more power (base to 110)
- Mega-Evolution for a different typing (if you want to catch Fire-types)
- It is very fast, which helps quite a lot when catching Pokemon, so you don't have to take a hit before getting it in the red and throwing your Pokeball(s) of choice.
- In comparison to the other Rank A False Swipers, it is both bulkier and faster than Absol and Breloom, it is a lot faster than Mawile and doesn't rely on its Mega-Evolution to function, and it is faster and a lot earlier accessible than Heracross. There are no False Swipers in S Rank, so this basically means Sceptile would be your best choice.

Notes:
- No Status move doesn't trouble it really, you only really need it for Pokemon with a very low Catch Rate (like Legends), and Thunder Wave is compatible with a lot of different Pokemon (including the guaranteed Lati@s). Besides, Breloom wouldn't stand a chance against Groudon anyway (Omega Ruby players will in most cases need something with Yawn or Hypnosis in order to status it). Oh, talking about Groudon, the only other high ranked False Swipe Pokemon not weak to Fire and/or Ground is Absol, and compared to that one, Mega-Sceptile suddenly seems very bulky.
- False Swipe is basically required if you want to play through the game. Because you need to use it to catch Pokemon, including your Legends, new team-mates, and random Dex fodder. It can also help farm Berries/Evolution Stones/Rare Candies from Inver.
- It is beneficial to use one of your team Pokemon as your False Swiper, because you will probably carry it around all the time and it has the chance to be naturally well-leveled. I can personally find it very annoying to train and maintain dedicated mules alongside my regular storyline team (and because of this I also choose Pokemon at a catch-ready evolutionary stage to be my HM mules).
But why would you want to bother using False Swipe on anything lacking a low catch rate? Most things you can just knock them into the red with a resisted move if needed/possible and then toss a ball at it. And in-game, speaking for myself at least, I'm not at all concerned with catching what I intend to use in fancy balls. (hell, I'd probably toss Quick Balls at anything I'm even remotely interested in catching on the first turn)

Also, you're not going to want to catch Fire types with Mega Sceptile. Most you're going to want to use are either given to you right away, (Torchic) or before Flannery. (Numel, Torkoal and Slugma if you really must insist) Not to mention the later half of the game really doesn't favor Fire, what with a pair of routes almost always raining and having to Surf to everything past Lilycove at least once. I've never bothered with False Swipe to catch anything in gen 6, and if I had wanted to catch Groudon in Omega Ruby right away, I'd probably still breed up a Final Gambit Staraptor from my Pokemon X game to bring it to 1 HP and then Smeargle to make it sleep and prevent the behemoth from using Rest. (not even bothering to get one Speed point under)

And how long can Mega Sceptile hope to last against STAB sun-boosted Lava Plume launched by Primal Groudon, assuming its not overleveled? (so no higher than level 45-46) Probably not long enough to whittle it down with any of its moves to make False Swipe even meaningful.

Overall, I can't see False Swipe being viable for making Sceptile S material. If Colonel M deems it good enough reason to bump it to S, then fair enough, but it just doesn't seem efficient to me.
 
But why would you want to bother using False Swipe on anything lacking a low catch rate? Most things you can just knock them into the red with a resisted move if needed/possible and then toss a ball at it. And in-game, speaking for myself at least, I'm not at all concerned with catching what I intend to use in fancy balls. (hell, I'd probably toss Quick Balls at anything I'm even remotely interested in catching on the first turn)

Also, you're not going to want to catch Fire types with Mega Sceptile. Most you're going to want to use are either given to you right away, (Torchic) or before Flannery. (Numel, Torkoal and Slugma if you really must insist) Not to mention the later half of the game really doesn't favor Fire, what with a pair of routes almost always raining and having to Surf to everything past Lilycove at least once. I've never bothered with False Swipe to catch anything in gen 6, and if I had wanted to catch Groudon in Omega Ruby right away, I'd probably still breed up a Final Gambit Staraptor from my Pokemon X game to bring it to 1 HP and then Smeargle to make it sleep and prevent the behemoth from using Rest. (not even bothering to get one Speed point under)

And how long can Mega Sceptile hope to last against STAB sun-boosted Lava Plume launched by Primal Groudon, assuming its not overleveled? (so no higher than level 45-46) Probably not long enough to whittle it down with any of its moves to make False Swipe even meaningful.

Overall, I can't see False Swipe being viable for making Sceptile S material. If Colonel M deems it good enough reason to bump it to S, then fair enough, but it just doesn't seem efficient to me.
Why exactly are we using False Swipe anything in a run where the aim is to beat the game as efficiently as possible anyway?
I guess I misunderstood what you meant with 'efficiency' in that case, my bad. I collect those Pokemon in fancy balls right away (if I happen to run into the females at least), or even just randomly appearing Pokemon for the Pokedex so I don't have to go searching for them later. In that sense, False Swipe is a very crucial move for me, and makes my personal runs more efficient. It's way easier to catch them this way than through backtracking, especially because you can't DexNav search for them if you haven't caught them yet (and after accidentally killing my very first random shiny Psyduck in SoulSilver after it received a burn from a Fire-type move, I've learnt my lesson in regards to using 'not very effective' moves to whittle them down). But I can understand now that in a playthrough which could 'objectively' be considered efficient, it wouldn't be a good thing at all to offer up a moveslot for something you won't even use that often. If you only catch your team-mates and the cover legend, it won't be worth it by default, as it is horrible outside of catching (my Sceptile even misses its coverage a bit, but in my case I think it's worth it).

I actually use a lvl. 1 Sturdy Endeavor Aron instead of Mega-Sceptile for Groudon because they're easier to breed and I don't care about IVs anymore now anyway.
Though Smeargle really is a pain to train. Unless you farm exp. points at Blissey bases of course, but then you need to have beaten the game already (at least, if you want to use level release). Ugh...

Also, I don't know how it would usually go, but for me the storyline (and the kind of efficiency I'm aiming for) doesn't end when I've beaten the League or finished the Delta Episode. Even though Blissey bases are a thing, I personally find it much easier to use the Pokemon I'm going to use in the post-game for my storyline team as well, so they will be at a naturally high level (no grinding = no boring = yay!). Groudon isn't the only legend that you can catch. There will be a whopping 25 (did I count that right?) other Legendaries to catch once you can soar the skies. There will also be regular Pokemon available in Mirage Spots, and you will probably be at a level where you can't guarantee that you won't KO them, even if you try to go soft on them (Critical Hits have a chance to ruin your plans as well). You may always have chances to catch another, and Legends just respawn as well, but for me that would actually be considered inefficient.

But again, because the kind of efficiency that I'm aiming for in my playthroughs is considerably different from what you are looking for here, maybe this wasn't the right thread to contribute in after all.
 
I guess I misunderstood what you meant with 'efficiency' in that case, my bad. I collect those Pokemon in fancy balls right away (if I happen to run into the females at least), or even just randomly appearing Pokemon for the Pokedex so I don't have to go searching for them later. In that sense, False Swipe is a very crucial move for me, and makes my personal runs more efficient. It's way easier to catch them this way than through backtracking, especially because you can't DexNav search for them if you haven't caught them yet (and after accidentally killing my very first random shiny Psyduck in SoulSilver after it received a burn from a Fire-type move, I've learnt my lesson in regards to using 'not very effective' moves to whittle them down). But I can understand now that in a playthrough which could 'objectively' be considered efficient, it wouldn't be a good thing at all to offer up a moveslot for something you won't even use that often. If you only catch your team-mates and the cover legend, it won't be worth it by default, as it is horrible outside of catching (my Sceptile even misses its coverage a bit, but in my case I think it's worth it).

I actually use a lvl. 1 Sturdy Endeavor Aron instead of Mega-Sceptile for Groudon because they're easier to breed and I don't care about IVs anymore now anyway.
Though Smeargle really is a pain to train. Unless you farm exp. points at Blissey bases of course, but then you need to have beaten the game already (at least, if you want to use level release). Ugh...

Also, I don't know how it would usually go, but for me the storyline (and the kind of efficiency I'm aiming for) doesn't end when I've beaten the League or finished the Delta Episode. Even though Blissey bases are a thing, I personally find it much easier to use the Pokemon I'm going to use in the post-game for my storyline team as well, so they will be at a naturally high level (no grinding = no boring = yay!). Groudon isn't the only legend that you can catch. There will be a whopping 25 (did I count that right?) other Legendaries to catch once you can soar the skies. There will also be regular Pokemon available in Mirage Spots, and you will probably be at a level where you can't guarantee that you won't KO them, even if you try to go soft on them (Critical Hits have a chance to ruin your plans as well). You may always have chances to catch another, and Legends just respawn as well, but for me that would actually be considered inefficient.

But again, because the kind of efficiency that I'm aiming for in my playthroughs is considerably different from what you are looking for here, maybe this wasn't the right thread to contribute in after all.
No, but Groudon/Kyogre are the only ones really important to consider for the purposes of this tier list. (Lati@s is given to you) The typical person frequenting Smogon (thus giving a damn about these tier lists in the first place) wants to know how efficiently the Pokemon available in-game can get through to the post-game. Like, Mudkip can plow through most every important battle, just needing a little Flying type support to handle the rival's Grovyle in the Route 110 battle. Wynaut is almost completely worthless and should never be seriously considered for an efficient run. That's what's being looked at here, last I checked.

As for legendary Pokemon, I'd hope that everyone and their grandmother has gotten into the practice of saving the game before engaging a stationary Pokemon, be it a Snorlax inconveniently napping on a bridge or a legendary Pokemon waiting inside a Hoopa ring.
 
Yeah, to put it simply the efficiency here is simply getting through the main game as quick as possible. Getting your catchers and balls and dex or whatever can be done much easier in the aftergame; besides, not everyone's looking to do that sort of thing.
 
No, but Groudon/Kyogre are the only ones really important to consider for the purposes of this tier list. (Lati@s is given to you) The typical person frequenting Smogon (thus giving a damn about these tier lists in the first place) wants to know how efficiently the Pokemon available in-game can get through to the post-game. Like, Mudkip can plow through most every important battle, just needing a little Flying type support to handle the rival's Grovyle in the Route 110 battle. Wynaut is almost completely worthless and should never be seriously considered for an efficient run. That's what's being looked at here, last I checked.

As for legendary Pokemon, I'd hope that everyone and their grandmother has gotten into the practice of saving the game before engaging a stationary Pokemon, be it a Snorlax inconveniently napping on a bridge or a legendary Pokemon waiting inside a Hoopa ring.
Okay, noted.

And yes, I always save, but given my mental circumstances (OCD) it's still a pain when you just encountered a legend the way you wanted to encounter it and then it ends up fainting... But that's a bit off-topic, so I'm going to retreat to the subjective threads again for now :b
 

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I feel the ones that we really need to discuss are:

Mawile - Mawile has had a good review by Lucchini. Though many come quick to berate it for needing two Heart Scales, I honestly think that you could go through the game with just Play Rough if you really had to choose. You lose a little leverage against Aqua and Magma's two prime Pokemon as well as a select choice of other Pokemon; however, Fairy has solid neutral coverage. It takes a little bit of a detour and what not to work it up. Still, Mawile is really strong for mid-to-late game and doesn't really have moments it slows down barring Wattson and Flannery. It requires some grinding but it honestly can self-sustain in a short amount of time. It's hard to really state it's B, but considering its cost in efficiency it isn't a long-stretch.

Absol - Many state it possibly being A, but I think I could be convinced to B. Let me explain. Absol and Medicham are incredibly similar. There are minor differences of course, but they're both frail physical attackers. Absol has some perks as a Mega Absol in that it can set up on Luvdisc against Wallace and Dusclops against Phoebe. Medicham's goal is to hit hard right on the get-go and just pray the attacks land. A big thing is I want to quote IcyMan28 because he proposed Absol to remain in A but Meditite to drop to B.
My greatest reservations with Absol in A are that it comes rather late, is underleved, and is somewhat frail. After thinking it over, however, I think access to SD + Night Slash should be enough to hold it over as it catches up to the rest of the team. Its mega evolution has high mixed offenses and speed (plus Magic Bounce protects it from status and debuffs), though its access to coverage moves is somewhat limited by gameplay elements. Bonus points for faring well in gym 7 and the E4, however.
Meditite also belongs in B rank, I think. It comes around the same time as Absol, which I gave A rank, but I think there are a few key differences. For one, Meditite is extremely frail with piddly 30/55/55 defenses. It relies on HJK for all of its damage output which is strong but risky, and it is still 5 levels away from evolution. Once it evolves into Medicham, it will need a Heart Scale for Zen Headbutt and possibly one of the punches depending on your needs. Mega Cham is sufficiently fast and strong that nothing can stand in its way. However, Medicham does not have any gym advantages and can find itself outsped by a variety of pokemon, many of them being Team magma / aqua's Golbat given the teams greater presence late-game. Medicham still remains as frail as ever, though to be fair it will knock out most pokemon in one hit. It fares well against half the E4 and is alright against the others, and does decently against Steven as well. If I had to sum it up, Medicham is a great pokemon that would benefit from coming a bit earlier in the game and maybe being a little faster. I think B is fine for it.
Though Medicham needs Heart Scales and some training, it is a hella strong Mega Evolution that usually requires little to set up in some of its matchups. It usually can stomach a hit against the enemy. In fact, if you look close to Mega Medicham's defenses to Mega Absol:

Medicham - 60 HP | 85 Def | 85 SpD
Absol - 65 HP | 60 Def | 60 SpD

Mega Medicham is actually bulkier than Mega Absol lol. Now Meditite is indeed frail. You could pick up the Eviolite just below where you capture it in Route 124. You just need Cut to really access it (Fly helps too).

So honestly I find them a bit closer than what you're comparing them as.

Meditite - See Absol.

I think after we discuss these we can move on to B / C.

=====

The following will be tier changes or reasons to decide keeping the Pokemon in its respective tier.

Latis - S-> A - After a long thought process and discussing with others, I feel that Lati@s does not deserve S Tier. It is one that is hard to really justify in S rank for some reasons.

- Latis have mediocre STAB

Luster Purge and Mist Ball both have an astounding 5 PP with a whopping base power of 70. That isn't even bad - it's arguably pathetic. You could argue that Dragonbreath is still available and has generally neutral coverage. While this is true, Dragonbreath loses steam very quickly and requires setup to be viable in pushing through things (with Charge Beam or Calm Mind). It's true that some Pokemon like Grumpig and others don't have much to say on that; however, let's also remember their STAB does have a little more oomph behind it and more reasonable PP. Though Psychic, as an example, has an immunity and some resistances there is also truth that it has Super Effective damage against some targets. Dragon is only effective against Altaria, the rare Dragon Tamer, and then Drake.

It's awkward to say because Latis have coverage in some scenarios - they have access to Surf and Dragonbreath is decent. Still, a big problem lies in that Luster Purge and Mist Ball are really the brunt of their damage and they can barely use them. Psychic arrives very late and Dragon Pulse might as well be a dream. They really don't have much for gym and E4 matches where they crush their opponents honestly and rely a lot on some TMs that are tricky to obtain (Thunderbolt has quite the detour).

In fairness this may be due to Latias (which may arguably be the only one that may need to drop). Here's a comparison with Mega Latios using Dragon Breath and Gardevoir using Psychic. I merely used Abomasnow as an example:

0 SpA Mega Latios (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 112-133 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 120, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133)

0 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 135-159 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 151, 153, 154, 156, 159)

Despite having a Mega to spike Latios's damage it still can lose in damage output to those with something like Psychic.

Even as a comparison here is Magneton using Flash Cannon against an Ambipom:

0 SpA Mega Latios (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ambipom: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
(136, 138, 139, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 151, 153, 154, 156, 157, 159, 162)

0 SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ambipom: 142-168 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
(142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 151, 154, 156, 157, 159, 160, 162, 163, 165, 168)

The point of these isn't to demonstrate what are OHKOes, 2HKOes, or anyKOes. The major focal point is that Latios must Mega Evolve to even be comparable to A Tier Pokemon like Magneton and Gardevoir. And with Gardevoir that's EXCLUDING her Mega Evolution.

Latios and Latias are free Pokemon and they're not necessarily bad, but I would argue they aren't necessarily doing the team huge favors either. They contribute to a point and they can help the team in some ways, but they lack huge advantages even over some of the A Tier Pokemon.

Electrike - A-> B - Electrike is a Pokemon that does have some issues that are hard to ignore. While strong, especially with Mega Manectric factored in, it takes a while to really get good. It's a Pokemon that realistically has two gym advantages and is a mediocre contributor or even a detriment in others. Its field performance is shallow as well since it relies solely on Electric-type moves until you get Overheat. Overheat still has drawbacks and some routes where it is somewhat effective in has rain in it. It's a strong Pokemon but really just lacks a lot of dominance needed to stay in A. B seems more fitting to me.

Treecko - A - Treecko will remain A. Though some may argue it is close to S-worthy, it still is a Pokemon that is plagued by really bad issues - most due to being a Grass-type. It gets very good once you hit key areas (Giga Drain is nice), but its gym performance overall is so-so and it lacks real power in the Elite 4 in some ways. I think it's a good Pokemon, but I don't really think it's so good that it is necessary. It's probably the ones currently in A that are close to S barring Kyogre and Groudon.

Ralts - A - People want Gardevoir in S, but I constantly will point out that beyond Brawly Ralts and Kirlia are likely bigger detriments than helpful for the team. All I want you to do is look at Kirlia's stats in comparison to, say, a Loudred.

HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe order.

Kirlia - 38 35 35 65 55 50

Loudred - 84 71 43 71 43 48

This is merely to paint as an example of just how bad Kirlia's stats are in general. And though it has a movepool buff it barely helps. Ralts stage is still pretty bad and Kirlia is evolving to a base stat total that's eerily similar to Stage 1 Pokemon. Well, close to it.

Wingull - A->B - No reasons needed really.

=====

Feel free to post your thoughts - especially on some of the Pokemon bolded.
 
Mawile - Mawile has had a good review by Lucchini. Though many come quick to berate it for needing two Heart Scales, I honestly think that you could go through the game with just Play Rough if you really had to choose. You lose a little leverage against Aqua and Magma's two prime Pokemon as well as a select choice of other Pokemon; however, Fairy has solid neutral coverage. It takes a little bit of a detour and what not to work it up. Still, Mawile is really strong for mid-to-late game and doesn't really have moments it slows down barring Wattson and Flannery. It requires some grinding but it honestly can self-sustain in a short amount of time. It's hard to really state it's B, but considering its cost in efficiency it isn't a long-stretch.
So my original points for Mawile being in B were the detour it takes to acquire, its need for babying, requirement of 2 heart scales, and coming at a time where it fares poorly against the next gym. Looking over this post, I agree that Iron Head is not necessary. Generally speaking, I think early-game usefulness is more important than late-game, when your pool of pokemon is significantly expanded and have had time to train. Mawile's advantage is late-game, but its hard to ignore that Mega evolution gives it serious power and access to Intimidate + typing gives excellent staying power (particularly against Norman). It's a borderline case either way and I wouldn't be opposed to Mawile edging into A.

Absol vs Medicham.
So these two are similar. Absol has power and speed where Medicham is ridiculously strong and somewhat bulkier. Both require mega evolution and the stones are found immediately. I really do think the difference comes down to speed and the short period of time where Absol can be used over the grinding phase of Meditite. Meditite is a huge pain to use in the Magma / Aqua base with all their Golbat, and even as a Medicham may not have the EVs to outrun them in the Seafloor Cavern. It fares about as well as Absol in Wallace's gym. E4 is a toss up for it as Phoebe walls it, Glacia has 2 Froslass that outspeed and blast it with Shadow Ball and its average against Drake. Does well against Steven.

Absol is can immediately mega, is fast enough at 115 speed to outrun most of the game even without EVs, is immediately useful for Gym 7 and 8 (sets up on Luvdisc), and can get through 1.5 of the E4 just like Medicham. I'm picking hairs here I realize, but they're so on the line of A/B that I think Medicham's latent period as Meditite and difficulty with TA/TM's flying types sets it back just enough where it stays as B. Both great pokemon though.

Not much to say here. I get that they're not nearly as strong as expected, but you have to consider that they arrive at the same level as your team for free (compared to Gardevoir's babying period, regardless of what rank it ends up), have a wide enough movepool in Water + Dragon coverage, and can even take on an HM or two if you need it (Dive / Fly / Surf) so they've got the utility angle covered as well. If the consensus is A though that's fine, its a borderline case such as with Treecko.

Electrike, Treecko.
No commentary.

I still think this pokemon's performance throughout the game is enough to keep it in S. It should realistically be at least Lv 15 by the time you beat Brawly, putting it a mere 5 levels away from evolution by the time you reach Slateport. Route 110 / 117 has plenty of trainers who Ralts and Kirlia fare well against -> virtually any Grass/Poison type is a good matchup and Roselia tend to give good exp. The matchup is about even against several early stage pokemon like Electrike or Gulpin, too. Loss of Lv 26 Psychic is a major detriment against Flannery, and the physical inclination of Norman's gym is not a point in its favor either. Still, Kirlia evolves immediately after this and is a force to be reckoned with for the rest of the game. I think the slow period from about Flannery's gym to route 119 is a small price to pay for early success and late dominance.

I agree with most of your assessments Colonel M, its just that most of these pokemon I think are borderline cases.
 

Colonel M

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So my original points for Mawile being in B were the detour it takes to acquire, its need for babying, requirement of 2 heart scales, and coming at a time where it fares poorly against the next gym. Looking over this post, I agree that Iron Head is not necessary. Generally speaking, I think early-game usefulness is more important than late-game, when your pool of pokemon is significantly expanded and have had time to train. Mawile's advantage is late-game, but its hard to ignore that Mega evolution gives it serious power and access to Intimidate + typing gives excellent staying power (particularly against Norman). It's a borderline case either way and I wouldn't be opposed to Mawile edging into A.
It's a borderline case - it isn't one that I would doubt being a B Tier either just because its detour and its cost is kind of problematic. Still, it is a Pokemon that can almost set the Cruise Control late game, which is still hard to underestimate. Bear in mind I weigh earlygame performance pretty highly, but late game still is done more competently by some than others. Mawile is one of those examples that just shits on 3 of the 5 Elite 4 members alone. And its gym performance after Flannery is good.
So these two are similar. Absol has power and speed where Medicham is ridiculously strong and somewhat bulkier. Both require mega evolution and the stones are found immediately. I really do think the difference comes down to speed and the short period of time where Absol can be used over the grinding phase of Meditite. Meditite is a huge pain to use in the Magma / Aqua base with all their Golbat, and even as a Medicham may not have the EVs to outrun them in the Seafloor Cavern. It fares about as well as Absol in Wallace's gym. E4 is a toss up for it as Phoebe walls it, Glacia has 2 Froslass that outspeed and blast it with Shadow Ball and its average against Drake. Does well against Steven.

Absol is can immediately mega, is fast enough at 115 speed to outrun most of the game even without EVs, is immediately useful for Gym 7 and 8 (sets up on Luvdisc), and can get through 1.5 of the E4 just like Medicham. I'm picking hairs here I realize, but they're so on the line of A/B that I think Medicham's latent period as Meditite and difficulty with TA/TM's flying types sets it back just enough where it stays as B. Both great pokemon though.
I might have to realistically test Meditite myself to really give a final statement on it. I'll take your word to an extent that it struggles in some areas, though if it's Seafloor Cavern after Tate and Liza Mega Medicham shouldn't have major issues within there. Weezing is kind of annoying but that's about the only one I can think of that is remotely threatening. Bear in mind Team Aqua and Magma are considered normal trainers for the most part and lack IVs.
I still think this pokemon's performance throughout the game is enough to keep it in S. It should realistically be at least Lv 15 by the time you beat Brawly, putting it a mere 5 levels away from evolution by the time you reach Slateport. Route 110 / 117 has plenty of trainers who Ralts and Kirlia fare well against -> virtually any Grass/Poison type is a good matchup and Roselia tend to give good exp. The matchup is about even against several early stage pokemon like Electrike or Gulpin, too. Loss of Lv 26 Psychic is a major detriment against Flannery, and the physical inclination of Norman's gym is not a point in its favor either. Still, Kirlia evolves immediately after this and is a force to be reckoned with for the rest of the game. I think the slow period from about Flannery's gym to route 119 is a small price to pay for early success and late dominance.

I agree with most of your assessments Colonel M, its just that most of these pokemon I think are borderline cases.
It's true that Ralts can evolve into Kirlia pretty quick. The problem is its performance from Kirlia to Gardevoir is hardly noticeable (if at all). It's a Pokemon that is just plagued by absolute crap frailty, mediocre offense, and bad Speed. Let me show you an example with Aroma Lady Rosa's Roselia:

0 SpA Ralts (Confusion) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Roselia: 14-20 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Roselia (Poison Sting) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ralts: 12-14 (30.7 - 35.8%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Roselia (Mega Drain) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ralts: 18-22 (46.1 - 56.4%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO

Ralts has a possibility of winning (especially with EVs); however, there are issues such as Roselia being faster than Ralts and possibly being able to bone through Ralts (Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Mega Drain heal). It's not impossible for Ralts to win, though.

Provided that Ralts is a bit over-leveled there is some truth it can tackle Roselias. It can sort of play against a few other Pokemon but it's risky because Kirlia risks being 2HKOed so damn easily. Koffing Sludge will do a truckload to Kirlia. Even Grimer handles Kirlia decently. It can contribute at Mt. Chimney as an example, but it just gets roughed on quite a lot by Archie and Maxie. Maxie is arguably worse because Camerupt takes crap from Kirlia and Camerupt can just shit on Kirlia with STAB Earth Power or Lava Plume / Flame Burst.

In fairness I might be overrating Kirlia's bad period as with Ralts. But it is probably one of the few mons aside from Absol / Meditite / Mawile that I really want to hear others' opinions.
 
I haven't used Absol or Mawile before in ORAS, so I'll just talk about Meditite. I'm thinking at the moment that it's at the very least a solid B rank, low A rank possibly.

The first issue I came across was having to raise Meditite. Instant access to High Jump Kick is nice, but Meditite's general movepool was lacking. Meditite lacks any Psychic STAB before evolving (except for the weak Confusion, which even then requires a Heart Scale or catching a Horde Meditite), so Poison-types like Koffing and Golbat walled Meditite most of the time. Low Sweep proves useful as secondary STAB when I don't want to risk a missed High Jump Kick. The only other decent moves it can learn as a Meditite are Rock Tomb and the stat-boosting Bulk Up and Acupressure. While Rock Tomb may seem useful for Flying-types, they often outspeed and damage Meditite. It doesn't help that Meditite is very frail, even with Eviolite equipped, which was why I worried about missing High Jump Kick in the first place. That being said, raising Meditite didn't ever feel like it took too long when it could OHKO or 2HKO the sea route trainers' Pokémon left and right with High Jump Kick.

Medicham proved itself to be a strong showing of a Pokémon, but it only shined as a Mega Evolution. It fairs well against the last of the gym leaders and can even sweep Wallace, so long as his Luvdisc provides no issues. Victory Road is very troublesome, however, as Medicham's frailty leads to restoring its HP after almost every trainer battle. It can almost sweep Wally, though, but Mega Gallade is a tough matchup. At the Pokemon League, it can potentially sweep Sydney and can cover some other E4 threats, but Phoebe outright walls it. Note that these matchups considered Mega Medicham fighting them. Regular Medicham tended to be more of a liability than an asset in the same battles, especially at Victory Road.

Even if Medicham's other useful offensive moves come from Heart Scales, it feels so good having access to them after dealing with a barren Meditite movepool. I got away with just relearning Ice Punch, but I'd give Zen Headbutt a mention for letting Medicham hit bulky Poison types.

As a minor comment, I understand why Medicham's comparable to Absol as a frail attacker. However, I found myself comparing Medicham more so to Heracross since they're two Fighting-types found at about the same part of the game. Heracross's immediately usefulness without needing a Mega Stone kept entering my thoughts as I raised Meditite, but the lack of a Psychic or Fire weakness made Medicham seem like it was worth its somewhat slow start as a useful party member.
 
Has Treecko really improved that much? It already has a weak start in that its frailty makes it eat lots of potions (Absorb is weak and resisted by most things), it loses to a random Trainer at the beach and is threatened by several wild Pokémon on the same route (the Taillows and any non-Level 4 Wurmples), struggles against Roxanne and Brawly even after evolving and its only relevant Level-Up move is Leaf Blade. It also came with the massive opportunity cost of not being able to pick Mudkip or Torchic. I guess it's minimally usable as it no longer has to forfeit TMs to better Pokémon and learns Mega Drain and Dragonbreath naturally. It becomes really strong and fast as a Mega Sceptile, but being unusable until you beat Winona is not a good thing.
 
Saying that Treecko has problem with Roxanne is wrong ... Of course, Nosepass is bulky, but it's still easy. And Lategame, Grass Pokemon are very useful.
 
Saying that Treecko has problem with Roxanne is wrong ... Of course, Nosepass is bulky, but it's still easy. And Lategame, Grass Pokemon are very useful.
I know from experience that you need to evolve Treecko to stand a chance against Nosepass. Otherwise, Absorb does squat and it gets 2HKOed by Rock Tomb (maybe Mega Drain lets it live a turn more, but you'd still have to bring Nincada/Shroomish/Poochyena to finish the job). Furthermore, picking it in RSE left me without a good check for Wattson's Magneton, forcing me to reset the game as most other mons lack the power to beat it and its Shock Wave is so strong that it makes short work out of even resistant targets.
 
Has Treecko really improved that much? It already has a weak start in that its frailty makes it eat lots of potions (Absorb is weak and resisted by most things), it loses to a random Trainer at the beach and is threatened by several wild Pokémon on the same route (the Taillows and any non-Level 4 Wurmples), struggles against Roxanne and Brawly even after evolving and its only relevant Level-Up move is Leaf Blade. It also came with the massive opportunity cost of not being able to pick Mudkip or Torchic. I guess it's minimally usable as it no longer has to forfeit TMs to better Pokémon and learns Mega Drain and Dragonbreath naturally. It becomes really strong and fast as a Mega Sceptile, but being unusable until you beat Winona is not a good thing.
How exactly is it unusable before Winona when it learns Giga Drain at lv. 21 unevolved?

Wurmples are a problem? A couple Pounds/Quick Attacks should do it, and just how "threatened" are you by a 15 BP move from a weakling like Wurmple?

As for Roxanne... It really needn't evolve to Grovyle at all considering it learns Mega Drain by L13. It should deal heavy damage to Nosepass while draining back lost HP. L13 is easy to reach with a team of two mons at that point (it's hard to think of worthwhile mons for a team of three, and Mudkip/Torchic do a far poorer job underlevelled). Hell, what IS Torchic doing to Geodude and Nosepass at L13? Treecko can solo with ease.

Methinks you're theorycrafting too much based on how good Treecko was in vanilla (and he wasn't good at all there). He's totally different in this one.
 
I know from experience that you need to evolve Treecko to stand a chance against Nosepass. Otherwise, Absorb does squat and it gets 2HKOed by Rock Tomb (maybe Mega Drain lets it live a turn more, but you'd still have to bring Nincada/Shroomish/Poochyena to finish the job). Furthermore, picking it in RSE left me without a good check for Wattson's Magneton, forcing me to reset the game as most other mons lack the power to beat it and its Shock Wave is so strong that it makes short work out of even resistant targets.
How does picking Treecko in RSE or OR/AS leave you without a check for Magneton? You can find Geodude in Granite Cave, and OR/AS lets you purchase Bulldoze in Mauville. (which the Makuhita you can obtain in Rustboro can learn among others)
 

Colonel M

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Treecko is probably one of your second best Pokemon in that gym. The only one I can think is -maybe- better is Shroomish and that's because it's a little bulkier. Treecko's Mega Drain access really helps against Roxanne.
 
WHY IS GALLADE IN E
-----reasons it should move up----
Psycho Cut,Night Slash,Leaf Blade AND Close Combat are just a heart scale each away.
Gallade's Mega is beastly
It is NOT outclassed by other Fighting-types
Great coverage
Great level-up moves
The TM's it gets are great

Galled should be solid A rank.
 
WHY IS GALLADE IN E
-----reasons it should move up----
Psycho Cut,Night Slash,Leaf Blade AND Close Combat are just a heart scale each away.
Gallade's Mega is beastly
It is NOT outclassed by other Fighting-types
Great coverage
Great level-up moves
The TM's it gets are great

Galled should be solid A rank.
Gallade is in E because of one very simple reason: the Dawn Stone required to evolve a male Kirlia into Gallade, the only one given to you in the entire game, comes at the end of Victory Road from Wally. (Super Training is too inefficient and unreliable to be factored in) And Ralts/Kirlia are frail enough that they even bring Gardevoir's tiering into question. Kirlia in particular is almost dead weight before it gets to level 30, where it can evolve into Gardevoir, and most undoubtedly WILL be dead weight well before Victory Road where you can finally obtain a Dawn Stone. It's just not worth it.
 

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