ORAS Tier List V2.0

There IS one other method to potentially get a Dawn Stone: Inverse Battles. The problem with those is you can't control what Stone you get, and they're pretty hard for where it is in the story (Mauville). Have to deal 7-9 super-effective hits, and you have a 30% chance of getting one if none of your Pokemon faint. So it's complex, but it's another way to potentially get one.
 
There IS one other method to potentially get a Dawn Stone: Inverse Battles. The problem with those is you can't control what Stone you get, and they're pretty hard for where it is in the story (Mauville). Have to deal 7-9 super-effective hits, and you have a 30% chance of getting one if none of your Pokemon faint. So it's complex, but it's another way to potentially get one.
...That's not efficient whatsoever.
 
I haven't used it at all so this'll probably sound like theorymon; but I'm curious as to what Rhyhorn's place in C is on a list crafted purely on the basis of efficiency is? I realize the Pokémon in D are likely a lot worse, but from where I'm standing Rhyhorn simply seems like a worse Geodude - Geodude has very similar albeit slightly smaller stats, evolves much earlier, is never too much of a bother to train and comes right before areas it's extremely useful (Wattson and Flannery). Rhyhorn on the other hand requires an extreme amount of babying, evolves very late and can't even get to it's final form because the Protector is Battle Resort only. Not to mention it comes immediately before the section of the game that has too much water 7.8/10 and has no notable matchups against the remaining gym leaders or E4 members - in fact losing badly against Wallace and Glacia. the only possible favourable matchups are Team Magma which is exclusive to Ruby - and loses horribly to Aqua in Sapphire - and some of Steven's team, both of which are beaten by Golem anyway. I might be a bit too judgemental here and maybe in practise someone's done something with it I just can't see that Golem can't, but from where I'm standing it just doesn't look like it deserves C.

Also, I've started up a new Omega Ruby file with the pure purpose of testing out Gardevoir, Mawile and Absol since apparently you guys needed opinions on them (rest of the planned team being Blaziken, Golem and Latios). I've just delivered the letter to Steven and hit land on Slateport Beach with the team being Combusken, Ralts and Geodude; and while it's far too early to say anything about what their rankings should be based on this... I just want to say that Ralts' startgame really surprised me. I was expecting to need to baby it and switchtrain the whole time with Torchic, but after levelling it up once to learn Confusion it was really fine to grind on it's own and actually start fighting trainers. In fact due to this team lacking a grass-type it ended up destroying all the Geodudes and, with a bit of sand-attack support from Torchic, growl support from Zigzagoon and a X Sp. Atk it ended up beating Roxanne's Nosepass. Now I know, I know; with that amount of support just about anything could win under those conditions, but with the team set-up I had it was really the only option I had without grinding up Torchic to Combusken in a way which would be incredibly inefficient for a realistic efficiency-driven run. So if you pick up Torchic and don't end up putting a Shroomish or Seedot/Lotad on your team (Wingull's shit not even considering it), Ralts can actually pull through for you. It also almost singlehandedly destroyed Brawly's gym at level 15 if it wasn't for an unlucky crit from Makuhita's Knock Off (Torchic was able to finish it off with Peck and get me the badge). Hell, Ralts actually ended up babying Torchic for a bit surprisingly instead of the other way around. So all in all, I wasn't let down by Ralts' earlygame power at all... however, what can really let it down for an efficiency-driven run is the enormous amount of exp it requires. I found myself lagging behind in 1-3 levels than I usually would in a run just due to how much I had to distribute from trainers between Ralts and Torchic without grinding against wild Pokémon for hours. I think at the end of the day this is Ralts' biggest problem rather than any sort of power issue - but I might be proven wrong on the latter when I have to use Kirlia for the midgame - in that it can drag the team behind in terms of exp. I think I might even have been able to get Combusken prior to Roxanne if I had picked, say, a Taillow or Whismur as my other teammate or something.

edit: one last thing; what's the stance on obtaining items through dexnav? ie dexnav chaining Absol in order to get Life Orb
 
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DexNav is considered too random for reliable tiering as you can encounter a totally overpowered mon out of nowhere just as likely as you can search for hours and find nothing useful.

Also, it took me like 10-15 minutes to get a Dawn Stone from Super Training to get myself a Froslass. Either way, its performance in the Elite 4 was surprisingly amazing, beating anyone but Sidney reliably (and even against him, she could give Paralysis support and hit Shiftry/Cacturne). Thunderbolt makes her slightly useful against Steven, too. Plus, you don't have to carry Snorunt for that long. So while it's still bad, it's not completely hopeless, therefore I suggest moving it to D-Rank.
 
DexNav is considered too random for reliable tiering as you can encounter a totally overpowered mon out of nowhere just as likely as you can search for hours and find nothing useful.

Also, it took me like 10-15 minutes to get a Dawn Stone from Super Training to get myself a Froslass. Either way, its performance in the Elite 4 was surprisingly amazing, beating anyone but Sidney reliably (and even against him, she could give Paralysis support and hit Shiftry/Cacturne). Thunderbolt makes her slightly useful against Steven, too. Plus, you don't have to carry Snorunt for that long. So while it's still bad, it's not completely hopeless, therefore I suggest moving it to D-Rank.
I'm talking about getting hold items from the dexnav; not a Pokémon. I gave the example of getting a Life Orb from dexnavving Absol, I'm not suggesting actually using it as a reliable method to get a team member.
 
I'm talking about getting hold items from the dexnav; not a Pokémon. I gave the example of getting a Life Orb from dexnavving Absol, I'm not suggesting actually using it as a reliable method to get a team member.
I think the hold items don't affect tiering in a meaningful way as getting, for instance, Life Orb does not buff any Pokémon because every other Pokémon you have can use it. The only hold items that would really affect tiering is species-exclusive ones (Light Ball, Deep Sea Tooth, Mega Stones etc.)
 

Colonel M

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Im going to agree with Rhyhorn to D, but I want to note by the time Rhyhorn arrives most of Aqua's mons are losing Aqua Jet on their Carvanhas (Level 29 it would be replaced).

Also no to Snorunt (Froslass) going above E Rank. I don't and should not have to repeat myself on any Dawn Stone Pokemon will automatically be booted to E due to their inefficiency requirements.
 
I'm okay with it staying E Rank, but even with the Dawn Stone only being available right after Victory Road, Froslass isn't quite as useless as some of the other E Tiers.

I also want to point out that while the Tiering Explanation list explains why Slakoth is Bottom Tier, it isn't listed in any of the tiers (not even Untested). Though I'd argue that Slakoth (Vigoroth) would rank higher than Slakoth (Slaking).
 

Colonel M

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I will fix the explanation for Slakoth when I get the chance. Thank you for pointing it out.

While Froslass isn't bad neither is Gallade. Just their potentially super late arrival does hamper their performance. Getting the Dawn Stone earlier isn't guaranteed as noted and can be even more inefficient than before. Hence - why it is best to keep them at E and never acknowledge the shallow argument of A Gallade from an individual earlier in this thread.
 
Also, my guesses for Slakoth's tiering would be Slakoth (Vigoroth) to D Rank and Slakoth (Slaking) to E Rank.

Availability: Route 104
Typing: Pure normal is highly oversaturated and never gets any positive matchups, especially with Roxanne and Brawly coming at the beginning.
Stats: Slakoth has horrid stats even for this point in the game, especially its bad speed, Vigoroth has middling attack but acceptable speed and Slaking's stats are nothing short of fantastic.
Movepool: The Slakoth line has a ridiculously wide movepool - Yawn is the earliest sleep move in the game, which is very handy for catching things (the wilds will fall asleep after you switch out Slakoth, which is rather nifty), Encore is helpful for certain battles (usually when the opponent tries to set up on you), Slack Off means you're less reliant on healing items and you have a massive attacking movepool, usually Fighting/Dark coverage to cover your physical Normal STAB and the elemental beams to hit certain weaknesses (even with Vigoroth's crappy Special Attack, an x4 effective move in the right place can hurt).
Major Battles: It doesn't do all that well vs. Roxanne and Brawly, but afterwards, you can SE the gyms by switching its TM loadout - Bulldoze for Wattson/Flannery, a variety of Fighting moves for Norman, BoltBeam for Winona, Feint Attack/Shadow Claw for Tate/Liza, various things for the teams, Thunderbolt for Wallace, the Fighting moves for Sidney and Glacia, Shadow Claw for Phoebe, Ice Beam for Sidney and Earthquake/Fire Blast for Steven.
Other: While Vigoroth is held back by middling stats (its bulk can be somewhat corrected with Eviolite), Slakoth itself and Slaking have an even bigger problem: Truant. This ability prevents them from acting every other turn, leaving them easily KOed in longer battles and greatly slowing down the speed at which they can beat enemies. It's also in the Slow exp. group, which makes it hard for Slakoth to reach the relatively useful middle stage and to keep up in levels throughout the game.
 

DHR-107

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I really do not think Slakoth/Slaking should be E Rank.

Celever had it at C Rank (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-in-game-tier-list-read-post-324.3523089/) and I think that is where it should stay.

I thought I had already made a post about my last team, but apparently not. I used Slakoth in AS, and while it was bad until Vigoroth it got hugely better from then on. Slash (And later, Strength) became a ridiculously strong move, and towards the end of the game there were not a huge amount of enemies that could take on Slaking and get away with it. Truant is a pain in the ass for sure, but the sheer power Slaking has allows you to smack stuff around and switch out, or tank the hit and slap them again. Don't forget you can switch out of the Truant turn (it's not like a Hyper Beam lock in). Slaking can easily take hits because of its ridiculous bulk.

I'll check my AS game later and do a quick overview of what I used there.
 

Codraroll

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Slaking works fine as a scout of sorts, I've found: First turn, you attack, and usually the foe goes down. At the beginning of the next round, the opponent sends in a new Pokémon, which you're allowed a long, good look at before switching out Slaking. Then you can pick whatever Pokémon you've got that best suits the situation at hand.
 
My team was Level 40-42 when I arrived at the Elite 4, ending at 42-44 due to mid-battle level ups. I had Swampert, Gardevoir, Medicham, Aggron (no Mega), Froslass and Swellow. Is that a level range for useful evaluation of in-game performance?
 
Petitioning for Aggron to be bumped up to B-tier. He has a rough time on the sea routes and the final gym, as well as having a late evo, but his sheer power as MegaAggron and excellent typing against some of the tougher fights like Norman and Steven can't be ignored. Easily my MVP during my most recent run through the Elite Four.
 
Petitioning for Aggron to be bumped up to B-tier. He has a rough time on the sea routes and the final gym, as well as having a late evo, but his sheer power as MegaAggron and excellent typing against some of the tougher fights like Norman and Steven can't be ignored. Easily my MVP during my most recent run through the Elite Four.
Pretty sure Aron is C because you can't catch it right away, needing to backtrack once you've reached Mauville and acquired the Mach Bike. And it's rather slow, albeit being able to patch it up with Autotomize when it learns the move, and is really late to evolve.
 
Pretty sure Aron is C because you can't catch it right away, needing to backtrack once you've reached Mauville and acquired the Mach Bike. And it's rather slow, albeit being able to patch it up with Autotomize when it learns the move, and is really late to evolve.
Most of that is true for Mawile as well: if you want it at a decent time, you have to backtrack to Granite Cave and is comparably slow, and yet it's sitting pretty in A. Not trying to say Aggron can compete with Mawile, but that argument doesn't hold water when you can ignore the same shortcomings for one but not the other.

Also, it learns Rock Polish via TM, so no need to worry about Autotomize.
 
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Most of that is true for Mawile as well: if you want it at a decent time, you have to backtrack to Granite Cave and is comparably slow, and yet it's sitting pretty in A. Not trying to say Aggron can compete with Mawile, but that argument doesn't hold water when you can ignore the same shortcomings for one but not the other.
Mega Mawile is available significantly earlier than Mega Aggron, and with Huge Power tears most things in its path a new one. Even then, I'm not that sure it deserves A, (it's not that great until after Southern Island, but Intimidate spam on Norman's Slaking and Vigoroth can help its teammates some, so definitely no lower than B) but as I haven't used it in an OR play through, I can only trust that those who've vouched for it to be where it is are correct.
 
Mega Mawile is available significantly earlier than Mega Aggron, and with Huge Power tears most things in its path a new one. Even then, I'm not that sure it deserves A, (it's not that great until after Southern Island, but Intimidate spam on Norman's Slaking and Vigoroth can help its teammates some, so definitely no lower than B) but as I haven't used it in an OR play through, I can only trust that those who've vouched for it to be where it is are correct.
Like I said, I'm aware Mawile is better than Aggron. That's not what I'm trying to argue. I think Aggron deserves to be in B instead of C due to its ability to demolish a good chunk of the end game mons like Mega Metagross (doesn't have Earthquake from what I saw), Salamence, and Absol. Aron/Lairon is also just good enough to get you through the mid game until he evolves, which is usually around the Elite Four.
 
It completely walls some of the top endgame threats you mentioned (I would hardly call Absol one of them though), but to me it seems like coping with Aron line's mediocrity and slow speed just for those couple unique matchups is like training a Dustox simply to beat Slaking. The inferior performance is too noticeable in too many other battles (in Aron's case because of the late evolution, slow speed, crippling weaknesses and poor special defence to combine into an entry of a very underwhelming mon) to justify him being so high up, even if rock is a good offensive type and steel is generally a good defensive type.

edit: then again, B tier IS the home of Zigzagoon, Tropius and Pikachu right now. I'd say I'm not really against it moving up to B, but I won't go out of my way either way.
 
Alright, so! It's quarter to seven in the morning, I've got class in two hours, I've just finished my Omega Ruby file (ie beat steven) and all I have to access the internet right now is a Wii U gamepad. What better fucking time to write this up
Also I realize my last post about this run was a month ago but it didn't actually take that long, just got swamped by work... and smash wii u

So! The run was made to focus on Absol, Gardevoir and Mawile due to... relatively recent uncertainty so I'll be focusing on those three the most. I'll just make a few quick notes that my other three members are ranked exactly as they should be; Blaziken's a complete all-star Pokemon, Golem's amazing for the first half of the game but becomes practically useless by the time you hit the sea east of Lilycove, and Latios... actually, I think Latios could go for a drop but because the very sound of that is extremely controversial I'll leave it for another time.

Gardevoir... deserves A in every sense of the word as quite frankly there were far too many situations it was useful and I fell back on it to even imagine it in B. I don't think anyone's going to be debating the usefulness of Gardy and her Mega any time soon and arguably Ralts is decent enough so let's skip right ahead to where everyone found frustration; Kirlia. ... I don't get it. I honestly never had a point where I found Kirlia deadweight. It's matchups are okay - past of course Wattson - it doesn't stay like it too long and while it's stats are eh, the same psychic/fairy typing that makes Gardevoir so amazing pulls Kirlia out of a good few scrapes. And it's not like this Kirlia had particularly unusually good traits; the only grinding I done was a small amount for Mawile, I used it the same amount as the rest of my 'mon; hell, it even had one of the shittiest natures of Relaxed and it still put in decent work. Nothing AMAZING, but... for a mid-stage it done fine. I admit I did use that one rare candy as soon as it hit 29 but it was honestly worth it. I found nothing wrong with Kirlia and certainly not enough to pull Gardy down to B. Definite A; maybe even a contender for S it's that good.

Absol was... um... okay? I mean, it did what it had to, I guess... hit hard enough with Night Slash/Return/Psycho Cut, SD'd when it could... but I couldn't really find myself thinking this Pokemon was in any way A-worthy. It's pre-mega speed and frailty let it down far, far too many a time, it doesn't have fantastic matchups aside from the psychic trainers and like... half of Phoebe? It's not awful, but... it's very unspectacular. It's a little too slow and frail for my tastes; if it's not B then it's definitely one of the bottom three in A. I think the only big thing about it is that it's a strong physical dark-type of which it's probably the only good one aside from shark but at that point in the game aside from gym 7 is that really such a big deal? ... also if it's not mega evolving (say you previously mega'd blaziken or alakazam) it's as good as shit

Oh my fucking god is Mawile good. Like, holy shit I forget where the controversy over it is coming from but I wouldn't be surprised if it was deciding whether it should be a or s lmao. Genuinely a Pokemon that really surprised me; we all know the Mega eats babies and kittens but like before you get the mega bangle it's still good enough. It's stats at the time are around your average mid-stage which you will mostly have before the mega bangle (starter, kirlia... other stuff) and it's typing and ability is so amazing that once it eats a couple of heart scales for play rough and iron head it's destroying every mid-game thing but gyms 3 and 4. It comes like ten levels below your team sure but it's soooooo easy and quick to grind against route 103 trainers and that one pokefan with plusle and minun that it's difficult to see this as a big flaw. The only real flaws it ever has are mega opportunity cost late-game and uhhhh it's sorta slow I guess but it's so bulk and you get way more than enough healing items to make up for it. Too good EZ PZ A maybe even s why are fairies so stupidly good
 
Replayed ORAS recently this summer, some thoughts on a few mons.

Treeko: From my experience using this mon on my playthrough, it was very mediocre. Might be because I evolved it before it gets Giga Drain at level 21, but it ended up being super weak, being unable to 2HKO most opposing Pokemon with Mega Drain / Leaf Blade and other coverage moves. Its level up move pool consist mainly of weak normal and Grass moves, so its forced to rely on Tms for coverage (though most of these moves such as rock tomb and bulldoze still end up being really weak since they still have subpar base power and come off of Sceptile's lower base Attack). Even in the late-game where its Movepool is opened up to stronger moves like Dual Chop and Leaf Blade, it still under performs due to many of its Higher BP moves coming off of its only alright attack stat. Its also very frail, meaning that it can't stand up to many of the stronger attackers in the game or weak super effective moves as well as other members of your team can. This mon just underperformed in a majority of the battles I used it in barring a few exceptions such as against Sidney, Tate and Liza, and Wallace. Its not bad, but I think it should drop to B rank since these flaws just hamper it way too much in game.

Mawile: Super good Mon. Its kinda hard to get since you have to back track to granite cave, but its so worth it. It starts out great, with an excellent typing and ability that allows it to counter a majority of pokemon in game trainers use with ease. Strong Stabs in play rough and Iron Head (which can be obtained via hearts scale tutor) as well as good coverage moves in Crunch allow it handle a majority of the key in-game threats with ease, although it still performs fine with PUP before you are able to get these moves. Once its able to Mega Evolve, Mawile becomes an even bigger threat, being able to OHKO a majority of in game threats with ease. It performed spectacularly in virtually every boss battle barring the one against Flannery even without Mega Evolving it thanks to its amazing typing. Its also super easy to level up due to being in the fast exp group, which is a plus. Definitely an S-Rank mon in my opinion.
 

Karxrida

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Bump. Wanted to practice my thread necromancy.

Colonel M it looks like all that's left to do here are the write-ups and maybe some more placement tweaking.
 

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