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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Alright so...update...time? The only noms i see is Sableye to A (which seems to have more against the idea than for so that's not moving for now) and Diancie...why is this C+ rank

Change List:

Diancie: C+ >>> Unranked - I basically forgot this mon was in C+ rank and now that i noticed and talked to Sweep about it...its being removed. Too many issues and not enough niches to stand out from its Mega form.

Future updates to the viability thread won't have set dates (i usually do it once a week) as things are quiet these days and once a week seems too rushed (at least in this subforum) to actually get noms/discussion going. Expect 2 week gaps in future updates unless discussion turns up huge.
 
QueenOfHax said:
Arceus-Ice is simply a better Arceus-Electric in a metagame where Primal groudon and Mega Salamence are by far the most dominating mons. It has STAB on the better half of the BoltBeam combo and Ice is arguably the best offensive type int he metagame right now. Notably Primal Groudon is single-handedly responsible for the decline of all types that resist Ice. It has a niche as an offensive check to a plethora of threats such as Yveltal, Lati@s and the aforementioned Mega Mence and even though Ice is a poor defensive type, it should be noted that fire and steel weaknesses are very easy to cover right now thanks to the primals and Fighting is relatively uncommon, leaving rock (more specifically, Stealth Rock) as the only troublesome weakness. If you need a specially offensive Arceus forme, Iceceus is arguably the best one for that role right now.
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eleceus>iceus imo on a few reasons. Eleceus actually has a defensive niche and can soft check banded hooh and it can basically counter bulky mmence and check offensive mmence. It still is weak to pdon and lati twins but paired with the right partners it can be revealed later in the game and really put in work. Iceus on the other has a better offensive stab. Thats the only thing I think it has over eleceus. Its weak to rocks and it doesnt resist anything. Just like most cm arceus, its stopped by the bird. From what I look at it is that both can be very offensive with the right partners but 1 can have defensive synergy on a team and the other is as good as kyurem w defensively.
 
dice said:
eleceus is a very mediocre salamence check and lacks the offensive presence that iceus does given that cm eleceus isn't viable while cm iceus is
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plenty of people disagree with that. Im not some genius with viability but I like to have conversations with some people on showdown and I have talked to numerous people that have disagreed with your statement that cm eleceus isnt viable.
 
yeah, what is the point in running eleceus when 90+% of teams will have a full counter, and it doesn't do anything. it doesn't have any defensive syngergy, that is. it's a laughable mence check as it cannot retain any pressure, and it does to ho-oh's sacred fire or eartht anyway. the best it can do is probably run cm+earth power... but then what? I used that set once with a few frends and it was fun, but in any serious match eleceus won't be any good, sort of like kyuw is bad, except eleceus is even worse
 
ApplepieFTW said:
ysort of like kyuw is bad, except eleceus is even worse
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Excuse me, what? Kyurem-W is excellent in the current meta with its highly spammable Ice Beam and coverage. The only two things that can even switch on it are Chansey, who is unviable because Mega Gengar, and P.Ogre, who is handily checked by P.Don which is Kyurem-W's best buddy (and being a good partner to the best mon in the meta is definitely not a bad thing). Kyu-W gets rid of Lugia, Yveltal, Groundceus and generally everything that gives P.Don issues and P.Don deals with everything that resists Ice as mentioned above.
So yeah please let's not compare Eleceus to Kyu-W, they're not even in the same league.
 
QueenOfHax said:
Excuse me, what? Kyurem-W is excellent in the current meta with its highly spammable Ice Beam and coverage. The only two things that can even switch on it are Chansey, who is unviable because Mega Gengar, and P.Ogre, who is handily checked by P.Don which is Kyurem-W's best buddy (and being a good partner to the best mon in the meta is definitely not a bad thing). Kyu-W gets rid of Lugia, Yveltal, Groundceus and generally everything that gives P.Don issues and P.Don deals with everything that resists Ice as mentioned above.
So yeah please let's not compare Eleceus to Kyu-W, they're not even in the same league.
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what defensive synergy does kyu-w have? (hint it doesnt have any). when building a (good) team, you need to consider what each pokemon does for the team, and kyu-w doesn't fit on teams, because it doesn't have a role. it doesn't switch in on anything (maybe a few things, but not on things that you always cover when building a team.). furthermore, it's quite easily revenge killed by the latis. it might be really really hard to switch in on, but show me a team with it and I'll reconsider my opinion on it (5 pkmn teams that are like pdon/klefki/ghosteus/ghosteus check/mence don't really count just because there are a few combos that work on their own (eh I guess those mons are a bit pogre weak, among other things), and amoonguss isnt viable all of the sudden when used on teams like these either). something solely being good offensively doesnt mean it's good. it doesn't 'get rid' of the things you stated btw, kyu-w has to get a free switch-in.

okay yeah, scarf kyuw does have some utility. because you could also argue deo-a doesn't have any defensive capability, but it can check darkrai with low kick/super power and can use espeed in a pinch which helps if your team only has pdon as a xerneas check, or you need to chip away the last of ekiller's health. scarf kyu-w revenges dakrai... and doesnt have as much offensive pressure (no where near) as deo-a, it can't even switch up moves. ho-oh walls scarf sets btw, and after a draco it's set-up bait for things like dd pdon and ekiller and generally easy(/ier) to take advantage of, so you'll have to ice beam a lot meaning steel-types have an easier time avoiding earth power, which is an even worse move to lock yourself into.


e: yeah thanks dice, wording things is hard sometimes
 
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If you actually do some calcs you realize 1 of the counters you speak of for eleceus gets 2hkod by an eazy predict. Eleceus is a last minute check to mmence as much as rockceus is. Obviously eleceus needs the right teammates to be able to be successful and it can't be just slapped onto a team like maybe groundceus might be able to.
 
hyw said:
"Chansey is unviable because or Mega Gengar" lmao
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Your opinion vs what's written in the OP. Guess which one is more credible?

ApplepieFTW said:
what defensive synergy does kyu-w have? (hint it doesnt have any). when building a (good) team, you need to consider what each pokemon does for the team, and kyu-w doesn't fit on teams, because it doesn't have a role. it doesn't switch in on anything (maybe a few things, but not on things that you always cover when building a team.). furthermore, it's quite easily revenge killed by the latis. it might be really really hard to switch in on, but show me a team with it and I'll reconsider my opinion on it (5 pkmn teams that are like pdon/klefki/ghosteus/ghosteus check/mence don't really count just because there are a few combos that work on their own (eh I guess those mons are a bit pogre weak, among other things), and amoonguss isnt viable all of the sudden when used on teams like these either). something solely being good offensively doesnt mean it's good. it doesn't 'get rid' of the things you stated btw, kyu-w has to get a free switch-in.

okay yeah, scarf kyuw does have some utility. because you could also argue deo-a doesn't have any defensive capability, but it can check darkrai with low kick/super power and can use espeed in a pinch which helps if your team only has pdon as a xerneas check, or you need to chip away the last of ekiller's health. scarf kyu-w revenges dakrai... and doesnt have as much offensive pressure (no where near) as deo-a, it can't even switch up moves. ho-oh walls scarf sets btw, and after a draco it's set-up bait for things like dd pdon and ekiller and generally easy(/ier) to take advantage of, so you'll have to ice beam a lot meaning steel-types have an easier time avoiding earth power, which is an even worse move to lock yourself into.
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Kyurem-W is a victim of the "it's an ice type so it automatically sucks" mentality that has been poisoning the competitive scene since DP. Resists are cool and all and the lack of them is problematic... until you realize that in a tier where 150+offensive stats are the norm what you need to survive is sheer bulk more than resists. This is why Lugia is the premier wall despite its godawful defensive type. But I digress, we're not talking about walls here, but wallbreakers and Kyurem-W is definitely the best special one int he tier right now. Kyu-W takes neutral hits like a champ thanks to its bulk and has useful resists to water, electric and grass (which can still be useful against annoyances like Skymin and the occasional Grassceus). Either way Kyu-W's job is to come into walls such as Lugia, Giratina, random support Arceus formes, Skarmory, Yveltal and Giratina-O and remove them, making its defensive type moot most of the time because it isn't meant to face things with a type advantage most of the time. Now you might say that Kyu-W is just a one-trick pony wallbreaker because it's the only thing it does, but it can still viably run a Scarf set to act as a revenge killer to a plethora of offensive threats like Mewtwo and Darkrai, making it more versatile than one might assume. Also LO/Sub sets are definitely viable.

There are soom high quality replays in the replay thread showing how a well-played Kyu-W can put an anormous amount of offensive pressure to the opposing team while being relatively safe from its checks (such as Xerneas and P.Ogre) thanks to its partnership with P.Groudon. It's a terrifying offensive duo that completely shits on stall and gives balance headaches as well and I can't see what kind of mon could replace Kyu-W in this core.

I have been arguing for Kyu-W to raise in the A ranks a few weeks ago and I still think it deserves that placement because its SR weakness isn't enough of a flaw to keep it so low in the rankings in my opinion.

Seriously what are Kyu-W's other bad points? Its weaknesses? Steel, Dragon and Fairy are piss easy to cover with P.Don alone, fighting is uncommon so rock (more specifically, SR) is the only really bad one but Ho-oh, Mega Mence and Yveltal seem to do just fine.
95 base speed? Enough to outspeed the base 90's as well as every relevant wall. Reliance on choiced items? Not true because LO and Sub sets are a thing as mentioned before.
 
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Can somebody tell me what Alomomola does to be C+? Other than passing wishes, i dont see a niche for this fish. It has decent defense, but most powerful special moves like Draco Meteor fry the fish. Also, it faces competition from blissey as a wish passer, and it has no offensive presence whatsoever. Its walled to death by PDon unless it runs toxic too. I say Alomomola should drop to C/C-, maybe even lower.
 
BrandonBeast said:
Can somebody tell me what Alomomola does to be C+? Other than passing wishes, i dont see a niche for this fish. It has decent defense, but most powerful special moves like Draco Meteor fry the fish. Also, it faces competition from blissey as a wish passer, and it has no offensive presence whatsoever. Its walled to death by PDon unless it runs toxic too. I say Alomomola should drop to C/C-, maybe even lower.
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completely shits on every common physical attacker not named mence, hard to exploit weakness, massive wishes and physical bulk, knockoff to harass opposing stall. Have you even tried it on stall? Check Sweep's post in SPL Dump thread - it made me try mola on stall and i find it really underrated. Bringing out some quality stuff from underused mons requires some thinking which is not a common sight (sadly), it's easier to just misuse it or ignore its obvious positive traits and call it bad


"unless it runs toxic"
it's bloody mandatory on it

about draco killing it - your blissey loses to Archen. it's not a special wall(mola) so why do you expect it to take dracos
 
QueenOfHax

this is tangentially related to the main point, but resistances are the basis of any non-stall squad. ur lugia example is rather non sequitur since stall is the sole playstyle that even attempts to use pokemon that thrive based on bulk. a poke like bliss/lugia's lack of resistances is warranted when u have 5 other defensive mons in the back. definite teamstyle classifications are far too pedantic and subjective (i'm sure u could argue some slower balance teams that use blissey or w.e. 'aren't stall' but u catch my drift). additionally, u could just argue that lugia's ability to overcome the lack of resistances is a resultant solely from his ability and it's a unique factor.....

regardless, kyurem-w's shortcoming lies in this lack of defensive synergy. every team (even the sample ho team which can skimp out of typical binds) necessitates a certain ~check list requirement~; u know the usual "2 primal groudon checks", "p ogre cover", "yveltal check" yada yada....... teams are already so restrained when it comes to building (anecdotal from practically every top player) that kyurem-w just doesn't seem to ever fit; there's a reason it has seen no spl usage (afaik) since its release (even in bw when teams were less restricted).
using a kyurem-w is almost certainly going to result in a flawed team in some respect, and does a possible offensive liability (this mon isn't doing much vs the standard squad although it does fair excellently against balance/stall) supersede a gaping weakness in ur defensive synergy?

my answer is no
 
QueenOfHax idk if i'm repeating what dice or apple said because i don't like reading but about kyurem w its just very weak vs offense because it can't revenge kill anything nor switch in on anything, the best thing it could be is a sleep talk scarfer for darkrai maybe idk and it's also weak to rocks so basically its very bad vs the most popular style in oras. other then that some stalls have chansey or blissey or even arceus water so even vs stall it will depend on machup. however on some balance you might meet rockceus but it can do good vs balance so its basically just good vs balance and some stalls. other than that it gives very low defensive synergy with anything for me its a mon you can't affort on a 6 pokemon slots team.
 
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this seems like a good point in time to nominate kyurem-w for b- for the reasons stated above. the mon is terrible and doesnt fit on teams, it's actually unusable. common sense tells you that this means kyu-w is unviable (which I think it is, but w/e) but b- seems fitting. c+ has some real shitters like grasseus and eleceus who probably make your build worse, whereas kyu-w doesnt do that but then again it has iceus (or iceceus omg!) which I think is more viable (as in quite a bit more) than kyu-w, so it doesnt make sense for kyu-w to be ranked as better; iceceus has an actual niche even though it comes with (significant) opportunity cost, albeit smaller than the one that comes with kyu-w (it being not having a viable team because youre forgoing useful mons). actually yeah:

kyurem-w is not usable in practice and will actively aggravate your team. it's pretty much not viable. kyurem-w to c+
 
Agree with putting Kyurem-W to C+ for the reasons dice, Lord Outrage and Applepie already stated.

Also, I feel like Mega Kangaskhan deserves a bit more than B-, B would be fine for it imo. In a offense tier like ORAS Ubers, having a strong priorities in Fake Out + Sucker Punch is awesome (especially the first allows Kanga to revenge-kill stuff like weakened Extreme Killers and Geo Xern). As many people could think, it isn't also setup bait for Salamence as a set of Fake Out / Sucker Punch / Return / Ice Punch is perfectly viable since Ice Punch hits Salamence for a really good damage (OHKOs offensive variants even after Intimidate), and it's still good against Lugia / Giratina (you fish for the freeze instead for drops). PuP Kanga is also a thing to destroy more balanced buildings but I think a set of Fake Out / Sucker Punch / Return / filler is just better in this tier, just saying that Kanga has options to beat fat walls as well though.
 
Sorry Arsenal, going to have to disagree with you on the max here! Scolipede was great in XY, but in my opinion, the introduction and subsequent prevalence of Mega Sableye in ORAS and the fact that Scolipede is 100% deadweight against a team that carrys it leads me to believe that this suicide lead should never be considered on a serious team; the only time I see myself using it is it I want to build a hyperoffensive team during a tour whilst myself confidently predicting that my opponent will not bring said Magic Bouncer, or if my balls retract into my body and I decide to use it as a link in a Baton Pass team. Notwithstanding this flaw against one specific Pokémon in this tier (which, again, from my experience, isn't exactly rare, especially in high-level play), I simultaneously believe that Scolipede still retains some tabgible viability due its effectiveness as a Toxic Spiker against non-Sableye stall/balance and as an anti-lead against Deoxys-forms, in combination with the plethora of Pokémon prone to activating the dreaded 1 HP Endeavor. Thus, I would rank Scolipede right around Chansey, so maybe like the blacklist or a D. This is because, alike Chansey, Scolipede fairs well against all teams except for when it becomes total deadweight when the opponent brings one specific Pokémon; and while one has the option of Pursuit-trapping Mega Gengar for the former, the opportunity cost of the latter is lower to the synergy of one's team, thus it not being as much of a match-up disadvantage to losing it inevitably.
 
mega diancie doesn't pair well with scolipede at all, it's complete supportceus bait which can easily defog. that being said i don't really care what happens to scoli's ranking, it's a niche mon that should only be used with due preparation and scouting as hyw said.
 
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to add to the above, as i've been dwelling on it, although what sets cloyster and forretress apart from scolipede is the rapid spin support moreso than anything, we have to ask ourselves if that is worth the gap of forretress in B to scolipede in C+, because it is fair to say they largely accomplish the same thing. if anything, forretress is the only one that could potentially be setup bait, yet it's ranked the highest for what, custap rapid spin/explosion? cloyster can actually dish out some scary damage if given the opportunity, and scolipede endeavor is like, the best insurance policy for a lead to have in the game.

tl;dr - scolipede fulfills largely the same function as both forretress and cloyster, and naturally scolipede teams in ORAS wouldn't particularly require said rapid spin that sets forretress and cloyster apart. as such, there shouldn't be such a large rank deficit from forretress to scoli.

EDIT: i meant to add to astounded but i suppose hack basically summarized what i said too rofl
 
Krauersaut said:
to add to the above, as i've been dwelling on it, although what sets cloyster and forretress apart from scolipede is the rapid spin support moreso than anything, we have to ask ourselves if that is worth the gap of forretress in B to scolipede in C+, because it is fair to say they largely accomplish the same thing. if anything, forretress is the only one that could potentially be setup bait, yet it's ranked the highest for what, custap rapid spin/explosion? cloyster can actually dish out some scary damage if given the opportunity, and scolipede endeavor is like, the best insurance policy for a lead to have in the game.

tl;dr - scolipede fulfills largely the same function as both forretress and cloyster, and naturally scolipede teams in ORAS wouldn't particularly require said rapid spin that sets forretress and cloyster apart. as such, there shouldn't be such a large rank deficit from forretress to scoli.
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forry = spin+boom but only 1 if anything come into play per game.
cloyster = shell smash means you can pressure msab. faster spin
scoli = leads vs deo-s+darkrai combo with protect.
greninja = taunt vs defog arcs

i don't think any of these 4 are more than niche options and should all be in c-rank
 
Greninja is the best out of all.
1)It outspeeds all defoggers in the tier and has taunt.
2)It is not set up bait to anything unlike Forretress who is the best set up bait for Mence even with explosion.
3)Shadow sneak makes it immune to rapid spin.
4)It anti leads Deo A with shadow sneak and 2hko because he can no longer use extreme speed.
for me its greninja>cloyster>forry=skoli
But each and everyone has flaws and seing forretress in B is very wrong.
 
I agree with Hack and Sauerkraut to a large extent; but I feel as though you guys are thinking a little bit one-dimensionally, too. Cloyster can fit better on teams sheerly due to its access to its offensive Rapid Spin, regardless of whether it learns Toxic Spikes. Its access to Shell Smash and a perfect Icicle Spear accentuate its offensive presence in addition to Rapid Spin. Therefore, these utility potentials give Cloyster an edge over the Toxic Spikes-dedicated Scolipede, whose only offensive presence lies in its 1 HP Endeavor plus its Pin Missile which beats two leads in the tier. I therefore believe that Cloyster should be a D at the least, unlike the blacklist or D-rank-deserving Scolipede. Forretress is similar to Scolipede and Cloyster, too, yet unlike the former and alike the latter, its utility spans beyond being just a suicide lead. Forretress not only has far greater defenses to allow it to play a more defensive role on teams with access to moves like Pain Split and Toxic, it also has the ability Sturdy to allow one to utilize a Custap Berry lead with Gyro Ball to easily beat Mega Diancie, as well as granting it some instant offensive presence. Lastly, I'd like to note that both Pokémon learn Explosion, too, unlike Scolipede, which can be useful in preventing slower Pokémon from Defogging or Rapid Spinning. Both have a bit of potential to outpace Defog Arceus, too, as Cloyster has access to Shell Smash and, Forretress, Custap Berry. In conclusion, while all are excellent Toxic Spikers, Scolipede is only useful in setting up Toxic Spikes and Spikes and its only offensive outlets are an unreliable 1 HP Endeavor, which your opponent can play around via various tactics, and a somewhat useful Pin Missile that harms only the Deoxys and maybe other things weak to it like Darkrai and Latios, yet again, this move is unreliable, as rolls can cause it to only dish out 50 in terms of base power. On the other hand, both Cloyster and Forretress can fulfill a multitude of other roles with various advantages as mentioned above; Cloyster with the Shell Smash, Icicle Spear, Rapid Spin, and Explosion, and Forretress with the Gyro Ball, Stealth Rocks, Sturdy + Custap Berry, and its ability to take on a more defensive role.

If we look at which Pokémon are the best as setting Toxic Spikes only, not each Pokémon's viability in the tier, then in my opinion, the rankings should go Greninja > Cloyster > Forretress > Scolipede > Smeargle = Tentacruel = Weezing. But the rankings in terms of viability would put Greninja and Scolipede under Cloyster, Forretress, and Smeargle.
 
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So I've been playing around with a lot of Arceus-formes that are lower on the viability rankings recently and one caught my eye that I argue should move up:

Arceus-Ice: C+ -> B-

I've been trying out a 248 HP / 252+ Spe Calm Mind variant with either Thunder or Refresh in the fourth slot (Thunder is better in most situations, but I'll expand on that in a second). A couple cool niches I found for it:

  • Despite having terrible defensive typing, Arceus-Ice has the 120/120/120 bulk to switch into a lot of neutral hits from common defoggers such as Latias, Latios, and most relevant support Arceus-formes bar Arceus-Rock letting it set up on them especially if it has Refresh. What this set does is either pressure those defoggers to switch out or lets Arceus-Ice become a huge threat in exchange for losing Stealth Rock so it forces a trade. It's a very specific role, but even a mono-attacker threatens a lot of the metagame with one or two Calm Minds. With Thunder > Refresh, there are less defoggers that Arceus-Ice can set up on safely, but it becomes a real pain to stop if it pulls it off.
  • Without Stealth Rock on your side, you can revenge kill +1 Mega Salamence without having to worry about it having HP investment like you would with Arceus-Rock or any other Arceus-forme that only hits it for 2x the damage. It's not too impressive since you need Stealth Rock off of the field, but it's a better last-ditch effort than other offensive Arceus-formes at the very least.
  • It has a scary offensive presence compared to other Calm Mind Arceus-formes because of its Ice STAB and Thunder as a coverage move.
  • Despite not being able to easily set up a Calm Mind versus offensive teams, it is annoying to switch into if you can lure them into Mega Salamence which isn't really too hard to be honest.

Now these aren't the most sought after niches, I'm aware, but it is on par with the Pokemon in B-. Using an Arceus-forme has a similar opportunity cost to using a Mega Evolution and it seems to be that Arceus-Ice has about the same usefulness of the Mega Evolutions in B-. For example, Mega Scizor is an average Xerneas check with recovery and U-Turn, Mega Metagross is an average Xerneas check that isn't complete bait for Primal Groudon, Mega Kangaskhan is annoying to offensive teams, and Mega Aerodactyl works well to keep hazards on the opponent's side and off your side. My point is that these Pokemon have a specific and rather one-dimensional role that they do pretty well while coming with a sizable opportunity cost. Arceus-Ice seems the same way to me. It has one or two specific roles that it does pretty well and has the added bonus of being able to break through unprepared teams more than every Mega Evolution in B- could hope to (except maybe Mega Kangaskhan).

On the flip-side, Arceus-Ice has, in my opinion, a larger and more sought-after niche than the Arceus-formes in C+. Arceus-Grass doesn't check much anymore, doesn't pressure much anymore, and does a mediocre job of luring in things. Arceus-Electric has the worse end of the BoltBeam STABs, threatens less Pokemon, and allows Primal Groudon to come in even easier than Arceus-Ice lets it come in. Arceus-Poison checks Xerneas and, well, that's really it.

So yeah, I think that Arceus-Ice deserves to move up a notch. Having it in B- distinguishes it from the other less useful Arceus-formes in C+ and still shows how it is generally outclassed and difficult to fit on a team since the disparity between B- and the rank of the next best Arceus-formes (B+) is still pretty huge.
 
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