Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Inspirited]

I am going to ask that Reshiram be moved to D rank as it has no more niches really going for it other than irrelevant ones. It is a Fire-type without a Fairy-type resist which is detrimental to trying using it on a team, it is weak to all forms of hazards, 2 metagame titans share its Fire-typing only retain the Fairy resists as well as doing things that make them much more viable on a team, although its not frail, it does not have Ho-Oh titanic bulk to keep it alive despite the hazard weakness, and due to its lack of strong defensive niche, it can really open a team up to some nasty weaknesses.
This is the best build I could squeeze out using a Reshiram, and to be honest, its pretty unreliable mainly due to the Reshiram restriction.

Reshiram is bad

Reshiram @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Draco Meteor
- Blue Flare
- Stone Edge

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 180 SpA / 76 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Sludge Wave
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Yveltal @ Black Glasses
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Rash Nature
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing

Arceus-Rock @ Stone Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Judgment
- Recover

Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 160 HP / 52 Def / 128 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Defog

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave
- Play Rough

 

[Magis4Life]

I have to agree with Wreckdra here. Despite having nice offensive STAB, Reshiram is too easily worn down by all forms of hazards and too easily worn down as a result (Latias alone isn't enough obviously), kyogre (both primal and scarf) though not as overcentralizing as it used to be is still very common, Ho-oh is also even more common considering how this meta game is arguably more kind to it and can easily take on Reshiram and is typically better overall anyway. It faces competition from Kyurem-W, who is better in every single way other than rather irrelevant niches like like lacking fire STAB and not being weak to fairy (too bad Reshiram is still defensively lacking and still hates switching in on Cereal or any other fairy for that matter). I can't honestly see why Reshiram should be used over Kyurem-W, who has better special attack, speed, and at this point better offensive typing (ice STAB is quite useful right now).

 

[Disaster Area]

2 mons from UU that are in my legit solid af team that Imma RMT aren't on the list.
Umbreon: Ekiller check, Mega Mewtwo Y Check, Kangaskhan check, mega mence check (maybe counter?), Yveltal check (walls but dislikes trapturn and taunt), Wish and Heal Bell cleric.
Chesnaught: Ekiller Check, Darkrai counter (bar sleep), Kyogre check (Pogre RIP ;_;), spikes, mega kanga check, zekrom and regular groudon check (lol). Beating Darkrai after sleep's taken is the main niche over ferrothorn.
These mons should be at least C- Rank, umbreon maybe C?

 

[Edgar]

I don't really care about this thread and I find it irrelevant when teambuilding but I'd like this question to be answered: Why is Big Bird not S-Rank? Yeah 4x times Stealth Rock weakness but like, when are SR even on the field, the Defog users are more than reliable right now and we've seen that slapping Ho-Oh on random team is not as hard as many people think it is (the swarm of Ho-Oh teams in SPL should tell you something). Ho-Oh can check a ridiculous amount of offensive, as well as defensive threats, it can pivot switch on certain pokemon and not care because of Regenerator, it also breaks stall and forces you to run Stone Edge on 4 mons or an Arceus-Rock, I mean, if that's not the definition of an S-Rank mon then I don't know what is.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Ho-oh isn't S-rank because it's worse in ORAS compared to XY. Reasons include:
-Sun support being officially dead. There is very little reason to use normal Groudon over Primal Groudon, so no more Drought support. Read: no more sun-boosted Scared Fires.
-Both primals don't give a damn about Ho-oh's Sacred Fire, making CB much less viable. Earthquake and Brave Bird can be both played around (see the next point).
-Mega Salamence can use Ho-oh as setup bait since it can no longer liberally spam Sacred Fire, and even if it does it's still setup bait for Refresh variants. Bulky variants with Roost and either Substitute or Refresh can even set-up on Brave Bird.
-Lots of shit running surprise Stone Edges when you least expect it, including but not limited to: Kyurem-W, several Arceus formes and Giratina-O.
-Mega Diancie craps all over it.

Ho-oh is good and all and definitely an influential force in the metagame but most the tier is well-equipped to deal with the turkey. You don't really need more than one check to deal with it, unlike GeoXerneas and PDon, who often require two at the very least. Just have SR and slap Stone Edge onto something (assuming you're not using one of PDon, Rockceus, Mega Diancie, Megamence and so on) and call it a day. It's A+ good, but not S-rank good.

 

[Freeroamer]

Erm, while I agree with you that Ho-oh isn't S Rank, I don't agree with that line of reasoning at all. Outside of a select few pokemon(certain Arc formes, certain Rock types ie. Tyranitar, Diancie etc.) there is virtually nothing which isn't maimed by the appropriate STAB and a lot of the stuff I just mentioned is brutalised by a well timed Earthquake. Beating Ho-oh is far from just have Stealth Rock and slap Stone Edge onto something, because Ho-oh teams will always be dedicated to supporting it and as such will always have dedicated support to preventing Rocks and in ORAS in fact, this got better than ever, with Mega Diancie and Sableye providing viable Magic Bouncers, the return of the Lati twins who pair very well with Ho-oh, Gira-O got better as a decent Primal Don check. I agree lures can be effective, such as Steel's Stone Edge Ghostceus, but in running something like this, you're dedicating a slot just to beating Ho-oh and thus in all other matchups, severely compromising the effect of said Pokemon.

While all of what I've said above probably sounds like a pro-S argument, the reason I don't consider Ho-oh as S Rank is the same reason as Hack presented earlier in this thread, in that by using Ho-oh you're dedicating yourself to building for it per se, even if the supporters for it have improved considerably in ORAS, you still know the second you click Ho-oh, you then have to focus on how you're going to support it. I know most teams would run some form of hazard prevention anyway, but Ho-oh makes it absolutely mandatory and forces you to be clever with your build, as it means you need to be able to find opportunities to Defog against all builds for Ho-oh to be effective. What I mean here is that say against Hyper Offense, they get early rocks up with Deo(very difficult to prevent, especially with Skill Swap sets) you literally are never finding an opportunity to Defog without saccing something or giving a free turn away to set up, Darkrai immensely pressures pretty much every Defogger, meaning from turn 1 you're at a severe matchup disadvantage. S Rank Pokemon should be Pokemon that are easy to splash on any build and that perform well in almost all matchups, as said in the rank description, and should be able to perform with even limited support. Ho-oh does not meet that description, and should therefore stay A+.

 

[Jibaku]

I disagree with Ho-Oh being less viable in ORAS. Let's think about what supports and outside factors Ho-Oh got and lost in the transition:

+ Lati@s Defog
+ Drizzle usage dropped
+ Electric Arceus' viability dropping
+ Zekrom's viability dropping
+ 2 new magic bouncers

- Drought is very rare now
- One of the new magic bouncers bops it
- Sacred Fire is probably less spammable.
- Mega Salamence is annoying

I missed a couple probably but IMO Ho-Oh actually got a slight buff. That said however, Ho-Oh's vulnerability to being cheesed by the stuff its supposed to stop is rather annoying.

 

[Lord Outrage]

WOW You made Lord Solrock sad but not at least putting it somewhere here while it checks Sala(use Trick room in its face)/ho oh and groudon (ability(Levitate)+typing(rock/psychic)).It can also learn Stealth rock and Morning Sun to recover even better in sun against Groudon.
More over Lord Rhyperior with rest talk rock blast avalanche Counters Salamence and ho oh.
I really can't understand and it amuses me that you put arceus bug in here which is garbage itself and forgot those 2 mons.
If you don't put these 2 mons in here you are standardizing the metagame even more than it is already.Also these 2 mons would allow new players who read this thread to actually be more creative since creativity is dead in Oras.
SHAME.

 

[jackm]

WOW You made Lord Solrock sad but not at least putting it somewhere here while it checks Sala(use Trick room in its face)/ho oh and groudon (ability(Levitate)+typing(rock/psychic)).It can also learn Stealth rock and Morning Sun to recover even better in sun against Groudon.
More over Lord Rhyperior with rest talk rock blast avalanche Counters Salamence and ho oh.
I really can't understand and it amuses me that you put arceus bug in here which is garbage itself and forgot those 2 mons.
If you don't put these 2 mons in here you are standardizing the metagame even more than it is already.Also these 2 mons would allow new players who read this thread to actually be more creative since creativity is dead in Oras.
SHAME.

What a bold statement (badum tsss)

On a more serious note, I agree with these suggestions (although for god's sake stop bolding every other word lol). I would say C+ or maayyybe B- for the two, although I definitely lean toward C+.

Hide

Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.

Both Solrock and Rhyperior have viable defensive capability and niches, but they are definitely reliant on support to function. They prove liabilities against most CM and support Arceus, Kyogre-Primal, and a bunch of other miscellaneous stuff but with good support and prediction they can definitely pull their weights.

Also P.S. Arceus-Bug is in D because it's required to be on the list as it's an Arceus form and therefore an Uber.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Changes

Arceus-Water B- to B

Clefable B to B+

Metagross-Mega B to C+

Whimsicott B- to C

Blaziken & Blaziken-Mega A- to B+

Arceus-Electric B to C

Arceus-Poison B to C+

Jirachi B- to B

Reshiram C to C-

Hippowdon B- to C+

Scolipede B- to C+

Kyurem-White B+ to B

Terrakion C to C-

Victini C to C-

Thundurus B to Unranked

Sableye-Mega separated from Sableye and moved from B to B+

Sableye stays in B

Slowbro-Mega added to C

________


Reasoning

(compiled from thread posts, miscellaneous forum and PS! discussion, and SPL usage)

Arceus-Water B- to B this is actually pretty solid, Toxic is almost a necessity but Primal Groudon doesn't actually impede it that much

Metagross-Mega B to C+ very high opportunity cost, B was a very generous initial ranking, severe difficulty in choosing a moveset

Whimsicott B- to C have honestly not seen this used whatsoever, leftover ranking from XY

Blaziken & Blaziken-Mega A- to B+ opportunity cost, new checks in Primal Groudon + Mega Salamence + Lati@s

Arceus-Electric B to C Primal Groudon

Arceus-Poison B to C+ Primal Groudon, but not nearly as much as Arceus-Electric

Jirachi B- to B U-Turn stops it being bait for Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, deals with Lati@s and Xerneas

Reshiram C to C- :( Wreckdra is right

Scolipede B- to C+ has no real way of getting through Magic Bouncers

Kyurem-White B+ to B a rise was wanted but apparently B- to B+ was too far, B it is

Terrakion C to C- on the way to being unranked entirely

Victini C to C- on the way to being unranked entirely

Thundurus B to Unranked rejected for analysis

Sableye-Mega separated from Sableye and moved from B to B+ does anyone actually use regular Sableye? I honestly don't know

Sableye stays in B it seems like quite a cool Pokemon in theory

Slowbro-Mega added to C people made good arguments for it to be honest, seems like something fun to use


On the creation of S- Rank:

S- Rank was floated in the first couple of pages as a possible rank for Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence, Latias and Latios. With the recent push for Ho-Oh to move up to S, what do you guys think of the creation of an S- Rank, with Ho-Oh and other Pokemon possibly going there?

Please discuss:

Whatever you like!

Replays:
For Pokemon like

,

,

or

, I am all for adding them, but please add some replays to your posts, as that is probably the best way for others to see them in use​

 

[Lemonade]

Instead of S-, Primal Groudon to A+ and move everything down correspondingly. S+ is already iffy af, S should be like the god rank it doesn't really make sense to stratify it even more, but I would rather see no S anyway

#pointlessanyway

 

[Sweetshare]

Pistolero asked for a replay for a Solrock in Ubers showcase so I figured I'm the guy to do it since I've been rocking (get it?) Solrock since the day PDon has been released. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-209187762 This is a full stall team that uses Solrock to force out PDon and check Ho-Oh/Mence/Some Rayquaza sets. This particular replay shows how well it does forcing Groudon out repeatedly allowing it to Stealth Rock/Status/Heal itself. (Yes my team is weird it was made as a challenge to make a viable Ubers team with no actual Uber Pokemon)

 

[SuperWumbology]

Pistolero asked for a replay for a Solrock in Ubers showcase so I figured I'm the guy to do it since I've been rocking Solrock since the day PDon has been released. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-209187762 This is a full stall team that uses Solrock to force out PDon and check Ho-Oh/Mence/Some Rayquaza sets. This particular replay shows how well it does forcing Groudon out repeatedly allowing it to Stealth Rock/Status/Heal itself. (Yes my team is weird it was made as a challenge to make a viable Ubers team with no actual Uber Pokemon)

Though I do agree that Solrock has a niche, why is there a blob that shall not be mentioned on both teams?

 

[Sweetshare]

Though I do agree that Solrock has a niche, why is there a blob that shall not be mentioned on both teams?

Honestly with how popular Mence is Gengar usage is low enough for me to not worry much. Especially since I also have Blissey so losing Chansey to Gengar wouldn't even be a huge problem. I had pretty slim pickings making a stall team with 0 Uber Pokemon so I felt I had to go with the forbidden blob haha. Anyways, it was a pretty random battle battle against someone who was only at 13xx but it did show off what Solrock can do alright. If I play more tonight I can get replays of it checking the other things it checks.

Solrock @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide/Trick Room/Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Iron Defense/Trick Room/Stealth Rock
- Morning Sun

In case anyone else wants to test how viable it is. This is the set I made with a few friends who also play Ubers and really wanted a solid switch in to PDon. Iron Defense to keep from being set up on by most MegaMence/Rayquaza sets. Trick Room to allow revenge killing Mence/Rayquaza. Toxic allows it to stall out most Groudon sets. Rock Slide to beat Ho-Oh.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Instead of S-, Primal Groudon to A+ and move everything down correspondingly. S+ is already iffy af, S should be like the god rank it doesn't really make sense to stratify it even more, but I would rather see no S anyway

#pointlessanyway

The thing is that Xerneas, Arceus, Mega Gengar and Mega Salamence are just that much better than the A+ Pokémon and Primal Groudon is still miles above them. A split S-Rank can work, look at Gen 5 RU. Personally, I'd make it as follows:

Personal idea of S-Rank division

S+

Primal Groudon

S

Arceus

Mega Salamence

Xerneas

S-

Mega Gengar

Ho-Oh

I only don't really know where to place Arceus, but personally I think central S is where it fits best. Mega Salamence can set up on it, but unprepared teams get demolished by the thing. I guess central S, indeed. I've made a small edit and added Ho-Oh to S- on my personal list. Still thinking whether or not any of the Eons should go there, since Latias is a fantastic counter to Primal Kyogre and has great support capacity with Healing Wish, while Latios has a shitload of power combined with utility in Memento. Still thinking about it.

There's definitely a distinguishment between the best of the best in Ubers, as I've already gone over. I'm for creating S-, since the difference needs to be accentuated, unless Mega Gengar is no longer worthy of S. Doubt that's the case.

 

[DoubleOD]

What do people think of Mamoswine? I've seen it on a few teams. It has the same disgustingly amazing type-coverage as the CM Groundceus that are rampant (Ground for Groudon, Ice for Mence), can setup Stealth Rock or can sash-Endeavour and finish something with Ice Shard. Unlike CM Groundceus it threatens Ho-Oh (with Stone Edge if you go that route) and it can be a very difficult mon to switch into. Is it viable?

(Oblivious guarantees rocks against non-Magic Bounce due to prevention of Taunt, while Thick Fat helps deal with Fire-type moves)

 

[Spyro Chris]

It seems like to have a niche, but I still consider these kind of mons to have a bit too much of an opportunity cost. It's obviously better than the likes of Deo-N or Arceus-Bug, so I would personally put it a noch above those.

 

[dice]

i would say ho-oh is s-rank. its team support just has to be somewhat antihazards which you're already going to need countermeasures for on balance anyway; it's not like the defoggers are subpar mons. its ability to check so much of the meta and be a menace to all team styles is pretty huge. lots of defensive primal groudon too are just forgoing stone edge which improves its viability.

 

[Edgar]

^ It's exactly what I was thinking since I saw the Hack argument but I never bothered to reply, as dice said, your team already needs some sort of hazard control so it's not too big of a deal when you think "OH HO-OH WEAK TO ROCKS MUST USE DEFOG" as you're gonna need it anyways. And it's not like Shadow Tag users such as Mega Gengar and Gothitelle are as disturbing as they were back in XY to the point where you would not feel comfortable running a non-Ghost Defog user. So yeah, Big Bird for S-Rank, I don't see any reason for it not to be in it.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

RIP to the amazing description of Mega Rayquaza in the OP :[

 

[Fireburn]

Moved Ho-Oh to S rank

SPL should be all the evidence you need

 

[Edgar]

thanks dude, pce.

 

[Nayrz]

i wanna bring up mega gengar as an idea for moving down to A+. its opportunity cost has went up, it doesnt have an awful lot to be doing like it did in xy, and requires a more specialized approach to using it unlike the terror it was in xy where you could slap it on offense and it nearly always got something done. i brought it up on irc and got mixed opinions so i'll bring it up here for discussion.

if an s- rank becomes a thing gengar i'd say it could go there due to the way it overlaps with mence, and mence is just better for most teams atm, otherwise i'd say it should go a+.

 

[Dilwar]

Yeah I'm definitely for the idea that S rank should include S- as well, since we already made S+ a thing. This would also allow Ho-oh to finally be above A+ like it deserves.

Primal Groudon should obviously remain S+

Ekiller, Xerneas and Mega Mence should be S. They are pretty self-explanatory, incredibly self-sufficient mons that are never deadweight and check or beat a large portion of the meta.

The new S-rank should include Ho-oh and Mega Gengar. S rank includes mons which pretty much 6-0 teams that are not well prepared, although Ho-oh is ridiculously difficult to safely switch in to, it's not as big of a threat as the others above it. Its lack of boosting moves and weakness to Stealth Rock prevents it from being in the same league as others, "capable of 6-0ing unprepared teams." Unlike the others, if your team is unprepared, you can at least check or revenge kill Ho-oh.
I don't think Gengar should drop to A+, but rather drop to S-. The increased opportunity cost isn't nice to it, but it's still a massive threat and I don't see it in the same league as those in A+.

The Mewtwos should be demoted to A. MMY just isn't as good anymore in a largely physically oriented meta, as well as having more opportunity cost. Mewtwo kinda suffers from the same case, but just doesn't have the opportunity cost of a mega. Its best set (Stalltwo) isn't as good anymore as stall is very uncommon, and arguably worse in this meta. Mega Sableye also exists. MMX however should be promoted to A- at least. It's a very common opinion that this thing is better than MMY in this meta, so seeing MMY above it is kinda iffy. MMX doesn't suffer as much from a physically oriented meta, and being able to both outspeed and OHKO the extremely common Ekiller and Ho-oh (Rock Slide) is kinda big.

I think Darkrai is worthy of S- rank. An incredibly difficult mon to check reliably. Sleep Talk users such as Ho-oh and P-Ogre aren't the most reliable as they rely on rolls. Also, it can run Thunder to get past these two. However, its bad bulk prevents it from being in the same league as those in S, as it's quite easy to revenge kill with a Scarfer or priority (mostly Ekiller). But it's amazing Speed tier and good movepool allow it to put massive holes in teams, as well as not needing any support. It's definitely more difficult to check than those in A+.

 

[Asmodean]

After having so many S-ranked mons, this comes to mind:

but seriously, can we have some reshuffling so that we don't have so many mons that are S-ranked? There has been a definite power creep in previous generations and the rankings could be modified a bit to reflect that.