Except none of them really like eating up a foul play? The top two fighting types in the tier both struggle more with umbreon than with pory2 yet it's 2 ranks higher. They're also commonly choiced, which again gives umbreon the advantage. If pory isn't running tri attack umbreon hits every common fighting type harder on the switch, and if it is running tri attack it's not running thunder wave which honestly just leaves it outclassed. Thunder Wave is really nice I'll admit, which makes pory harder to play around, but it's still not enough to prove to me that umbreon deserves to be so much lower than pory when its utility lets it be far more splashable.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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Except none of them really like eating up a foul play? The top two fighting types in the tier both struggle more with umbreon than with pory2 yet it's 2 ranks higher. They're also commonly choiced, which again gives umbreon the advantage. If pory isn't running tri attack umbreon hits every common fighting type harder on the switch, and if it is running tri attack it's not running thunder wave which honestly just leaves it outclassed. Thunder Wave is really nice I'll admit, which makes pory harder to play around, but it's still not enough to prove to me that umbreon deserves to be so much lower than pory when its utility lets it be far more splashable.
I agree Umbreon should be B+ for it's specially defensive set. It is a much more reliable switch in to M-Pidge due to Leftover recover, and the Work Up sets are Punished hard by Foul Play. In addition, Synchronize is such a useful ability, which cripples scald spammers such as Empoleon, Tentacruel, and Swampert, and it makes people think twice before clicking Toxic. The Specially Defensive set also takes on Alakazam much more reliably than P2, which is in danger of being KOed with prior damage + psyshock + focus blast. Umbreon, due to immunity to Psyshock and LEftovers, and Wish stall Zam till it switches or runs out of focus blasts. SubCm Chandelure, while literally hard walled by Trace P2, can PP stall P2 whereas Umbreon can smack it with Foul Play. Finally, it can Wish Pass, which means it can support its team better than P2 (however T-Wave is really nice for P2)
The Phys Def set isn't worth it IMO. P2 does it much much better due to T-wave and better bulk.
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 204-241 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Although I personally am a fan of Mixed P2, which blanket checks much more things better than SpD or PhysD P2
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 178-211 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
P2 can then T-wave and Recover spam, whereas Umbreon must take an Outrage to kill Salamence
Also M-Pidgeot needs to be S rank. Aero doesn't even check it that well since it can't switch in without being pressured to Roost if rocks are up. Plus it risks confusehax. Every team NEEDS a Pidgeot switch in or it will be destroyed. The argument that Aero is keeping Pidgeot out of S rank is really stupid, especially since you can slap a Cune, Bronzong, Swampert, Hippo or any other check and call it a day,
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Another advantage Cresselia has over Reuniclus is its ability to counter Nidoqueen and Nidoking. Reuniclus doesn't quite have the special bulk to take hits from the Nidos without a Calm Mind or two. Reuniclus also has to be played a lot more carefully because it needs to be near full to switch in safely. It also can't recover health versus a slow wall like Cresselia can, so if it gets too low it's dead.
In my experience, Cresselia usually walls all but 1 or 2 mons on opposing offense teams, so if the opponent doesn't preserve them well, Cresselia can win the game all by itself. Then again, a lot of ladder teams tend to be bad at breaking stally mons.
Cresselia is not as good of a win condition against balance and stall as Reuniclus due to its vulnerability to Toxic and burns, but it's better against offense. Cresselia does give a lot of free turns to stuff like Empoleon though, so A+ does seem a bit high.
In my experience, Cresselia usually walls all but 1 or 2 mons on opposing offense teams, so if the opponent doesn't preserve them well, Cresselia can win the game all by itself. Then again, a lot of ladder teams tend to be bad at breaking stally mons.
Cresselia is not as good of a win condition against balance and stall as Reuniclus due to its vulnerability to Toxic and burns, but it's better against offense. Cresselia does give a lot of free turns to stuff like Empoleon though, so A+ does seem a bit high.
That is until you get a roar in your calm mind
I'm not judging, but is Feraligatr really good enough to be A+? I haven't seen any at all and I'd imagine the electric types of the tier would keep it from becoming a big threat. I know Feraligatr has access to Dragon dance, but I'd imagine other pokes would do that job better. Could someone please explain?
It has access to Sheer Force which allows its moves (Waterfall, Crunch, Ice Punch, etc) to be much more powerful. It also has Swords Dance and Aqua Jet and can ever run sets like Sub + DD or Sub + SD to mess up certain teams
With access to sheer Force, Feraligatr is actually debatably S rank material. The tier is not very saturated with too many Electric types, anyway. With one Dragon Dance/ Swords Dance. Only niche mons that are there to stop mainly Gatr like Chesnaught and Tangrowth(Although Chesnaught is not niche per se) can live a hit at +1. Other mons like Suicune, can get beaten by the Substitue variant as well.
Gatr is probably up there with Suicune as the most dangerous set-up sweeper in the tier. To put things in perspective, before even looking at boosts, Gatr's Life Orb + Sheer Force-boosted Waterfall hits harder than 252+ Sharp Beak Talonflame's Brave Bird without a boost. It also has the bulk to take a hit or two in order to effectively set up, and Water is a solid defensive typing. DD and Agility sets are a serious pain for offense to deal with - if Gatr gets in, you basically have to sac whatever you have in because if you give it a turn to set up, you can lose the entire match. Swords Dance + Sub can just eat through stall and bulkier teams, as it takes only a minimum of EVs to guarantee that a +1 Suicune's Scald will never break your Sub, turning one of the most common mons in the tier into setup bait.
Basically, Gatr is ferocious if well played.
Feraligatr is certainly good enough for A+ Rank, and if anything it should really be in S Rank. I'd argue Feraligatr is one of the Top 10 best UU Pokemon right now. The only Electric-types that are relevant in UU are in fact Heliolisk, Rotom-C, Rotom-H, and Magneton. It is a lethal DD sweeper with a boosted SF+LO Waterfall free of recoil that hits pretty hard and not much can take a hit from it. Yeah I know Salamence is a thing but Feraligatr crushes in a different manner from Mence. Only a few mons can take it on after a boost, mainly Chesnaught.
What electric types? Feraligatr OHKO's most of the tier's electric types even when unboosted, so a simple substitute on the switch will beat them. At +1 it outspeeds every electric type that isn't carrying a scarf, and OHKO's every electric type that isn't Mega Ampharos. Scarf Heliolisk is a great revenge-killer for Feraligatr but it's a risky switch-in since unboosted Ice Punch and Crunch have a chance to OHKO after rocks. When I ran Feraligatr, most of my kills came not from boosting but rather catching scarfers and other switch-ins with regular attacks when they tried to switch in. The threat of the sweep is almost as dangerous as the sweep itself. This thing is a powerhouse well-deserving of its A+ rank.
Minor nitpick: standard Mega-Amphy is OHKO'd at +1 as well, and max HP version has an 87.5% chance of being cleanly OHKO'd. In fact, you need near max HP/Defense Bold to guarantee survival of a +1 Ice Punch after rocks damage.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 377-445 (106.4 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 377-445 (98.4 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Mega Ampharos: 283-335 (73.8 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock <--you need this much defense minimum to guarantee survival after rocks
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I would like to make a radical proposal
Rotom-C to A rank
Rotom-C blanket checks pretty much every bulky Water-type in UU (except like boosted Suicune) and can revenge kill a whole bunch of other things. Going down the list, it can take on Mega Aerodactyl pretty handily and can also revenge kill Feraligatr (it can also probably take a waterfall or two). Mega Pidgeot and Crobat are also no match for its Thunderbolt. It also pretty much hard counters Mega Swampert and other Water-types. I think the one thing it really offers that only like Heracross can do is take on every single Water-type in UU. For example, some Grass-types only hit Empoleon and Tentacruel neutrally, but thanks to its Electric typing, it has no problem with them. Similarly, Swampert and Seismitoad are immune to Electric-type attacks, but crumble terrifically to the power of Leaf Storm. Also, its access to Trick let's it screw with walls such as Blissey and Florges. Also it screws with Hippowdon with its Leaf Storm. Funny enough, it makes a good Pokemon on sand / Hippowdon teams.
Yeah, I know it loses to things like Hydreigon, Cresselia, and the works, but I think it has enough merit to be bumped up a rank.
Rotom-C to A rank
Rotom-C blanket checks pretty much every bulky Water-type in UU (except like boosted Suicune) and can revenge kill a whole bunch of other things. Going down the list, it can take on Mega Aerodactyl pretty handily and can also revenge kill Feraligatr (it can also probably take a waterfall or two). Mega Pidgeot and Crobat are also no match for its Thunderbolt. It also pretty much hard counters Mega Swampert and other Water-types. I think the one thing it really offers that only like Heracross can do is take on every single Water-type in UU. For example, some Grass-types only hit Empoleon and Tentacruel neutrally, but thanks to its Electric typing, it has no problem with them. Similarly, Swampert and Seismitoad are immune to Electric-type attacks, but crumble terrifically to the power of Leaf Storm. Also, its access to Trick let's it screw with walls such as Blissey and Florges. Also it screws with Hippowdon with its Leaf Storm. Funny enough, it makes a good Pokemon on sand / Hippowdon teams.
Yeah, I know it loses to things like Hydreigon, Cresselia, and the works, but I think it has enough merit to be bumped up a rank.
If you want to move Mow up, you might as well bring Heliolisk up with it. Although Mow is bulkier and can live physical hits better, Heliolisk has its own advantages like have base 109 speed and being completely immune to Water types making it even less risky to switch it in. Just saying, and not saying i disagree.
Agreed! Even dragons like dragalge dont like residual damage from wilo and the constant voltswitching to keep momentum cant be stopped as switching in a ground type is dangerous. Very good mon.
Rotom-c for A rank
I grabbed the "UU defensive" set from the calculator when checking my numbers before posting, which is in fact 248 HP / 252+ Def. It is listed in the on-site analysis, so it's a thing as far as I'm concerned. But yes, uninvested sets are definitely the more common ones and are OHKO'd by +1 Feraligatr.
That said, if Ampharos hasn't already Mega Evolved then Feraligatr faces a 50/50. +1 Ice Punch beats Mega Ampharos, but against non-mega Ampharos hits neutrally and fails to KO. Waterfall will beat non-mega Ampharos but loses to Mega Ampharos. So the decision of whether to mega or not determines which attack KO's.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 328-386 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 205-243 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 136-161 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 343-406 (106.8 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Standard ampharos runs like 100 speed or something for swampert and runs offensive. Defensive sets lose to Suicune, a major reason for the Offensive sets popularity.
I'm all for moving Rotom-C up too. That thing is an absolute pain to go up against and can wreck the three S-ranked mons fairy easily (you have to run HP Ice to beat Mence tho.) You can run a Scarf, Specs, heck, slap an AV on that thing if you feel like. It's versatile, it's annoying as heck, and it deserves A-rank.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-C: 247-291 (81.5 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-C: 138-164 (45.5 - 54.1%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rotom-C doesn't hard counter Swampert since it cannot switch into Ice Punch in the Rain. This calc also was max HP and Def, which most aren't. It also gets bodied by +1 Gatrs, so unless you are scarf you aren't switching into it.
It's most common sets are Choice Specs/Scarf with Volt Switch, Leaf Storm, Tbolt, and Trick which makes it heavily reliant on predictions due to its choice item. I know predictions aren't the best argument but many times I find myself hesitant to click Leaf Storm on stuff like Hippowdon, Swampert etc because if they switch, I'm screwed due to the SpA drop and move lock. As mentioned before, the Choiced sets lack the bulk to switch into many bulky waters. Ice Punch from Swampert and Gatr, Blastoise's Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere or Ice Beam, and even Suicune's Ice Beam can cripple it. Now if it opts for Leftovers, it usually goes for special bulk based on the usage stats, which still leaves it weak to Ice Punch. In addition, it no longer can outspeed threats like +1 Gatrs, Zam, Chandelure, Pidgeot, Aero etc and it becomes complete set up bait for stuff like Cress, Reuniclus, and Snorlax without Trick. It should remain A- imo.
However, Heliolisk should move up to A. It gets the edge over Rotom due to its superior speed and ability to hit hard without relying on Specs. The immunity to water also is great since it doesn't get worn down by Scalds
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Rotom is still a far better answer to Swampert than Helio. It might not be a counter to the Rain Dance set but it sure as hell beats most variants, something that Helio can't really do. The option to run a slow Volt Switch is another rather important caveat to Rotom's kit, allowing teammates to come in safely after Rotom takes a hit. While being forced to run Leaf Storm is a bit of a buzzkill, both Helio and Rotom-C have their drawbacks are should remain in the same rank as each other. Whether this rank is A- or A I'm not decided atm.
Feraligatr To S rank.
This pokemon is one powerful alligator.It is the most powerfull physical Setup sweeper in the game.It can easily one shot its weaknesses,and with quite some bulk it can take some hits.An Espeed from an Entei doesnt 2shot this beast.With 2 DDs it outspeeds every non scarf,mega aero and beedrill,and defeat them,easily with STABs.It has numerous pokemon that it can set up and sweep,with rocks breaking non magic guard alakazam sashes its unstoppable as rocks do break the sash and after 1 Ddance it eats lives.It actually lives an Energy Ball from alakazam without any investments but just 4 Spdef investmenst.It does take care of Salamence,Aerodactyl and ice beam Crocune 3 S rank Mons,it does get checked by Tagrowth and Chesnaught but it can deal damage after +2.This is a worthy S rank mon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-226804636 he saved me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-226808906 late game cleaner
This pokemon is one powerful alligator.It is the most powerfull physical Setup sweeper in the game.It can easily one shot its weaknesses,and with quite some bulk it can take some hits.An Espeed from an Entei doesnt 2shot this beast.With 2 DDs it outspeeds every non scarf,mega aero and beedrill,and defeat them,easily with STABs.It has numerous pokemon that it can set up and sweep,with rocks breaking non magic guard alakazam sashes its unstoppable as rocks do break the sash and after 1 Ddance it eats lives.It actually lives an Energy Ball from alakazam without any investments but just 4 Spdef investmenst.It does take care of Salamence,Aerodactyl and ice beam Crocune 3 S rank Mons,it does get checked by Tagrowth and Chesnaught but it can deal damage after +2.This is a worthy S rank mon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-226804636 he saved me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-226808906 late game cleaner
Your opponent choked in the first game. If he had brought Milo in immediately he would have performed much better, whether it be from a burn from Scald, Toxicing into Entei's Extreme Speed range, or Dragon Tailing you out.
In the second replay Feraligatr was superfluous. Rotom-H's Volt Switch KO'd both Beedrill and Clawitzer at that point.
Feraligatr is still a top threat in UU, but he's not quite S material.
In the second replay Feraligatr was superfluous. Rotom-H's Volt Switch KO'd both Beedrill and Clawitzer at that point.
Feraligatr is still a top threat in UU, but he's not quite S material.
A+ is solid for Feraligatr IMO. While it does have a lot of power, it's checked really easily by status in general (unless you're running Lum O_o) and kinda needs a Dragon Dance to get going. Fully PhysDef Rotom-C has a pretty good chance to live an Adamant +1 Ice Punch from Gatr and can KO easily with Leaf Storm. It lacks the sheer power and "snowball effect" that Salamence can have, it isn't incredibly fast like Mega Aero, and it just isn't Crocune. (Well, nothing can be compared to Crocune except maybe megabro lol)
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