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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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Nah, not when Swampert and Suicune can just Roar the opponent out and provide chip damage if paired with hazards. Roar has much more utility in general, leaving Milotic completely outclassed, unfortunately. Keep Milotic in C.
On a secondary note, supporting Feraligatr to S because of the new drawback to Scald users, meaning Bulky Waters can't take it on as reliably as before, its brutal power with LO and Sheer Force, its wide array of boosting moves that let it fulfill any possible function a set-up attacker can do and having great coverage with just Waterfall, Crunch and Ice Punch. This thing is an absolute monster, raise it to S.
Haze is better because you eliminate boosts before they attacks you. Roar allows your opponent to get off damage then come in with another pokemon that can potentially finish it off. A good example was today when dodmen crocune roared me out after I attacked with snorlax into murderkrow which pursuit suicune to it's death! Plus Milotic has instant recovery while swampert and suicune have unreliable recovery.
Edit: Milotic for B- rank!
You just listed a very specific personal experience that does not speak for the quality of a mon overall milotic is only C rank material I dont really feel like reiterating the above points rn.
As for kingdra I think it really earns its spot more so for rain and setup which means depending on what you use it for you can dent stall or HO however you cant do shit if you are up against the wrong type of team or dont have rain up. Honestly I really like kingdra as a rain wallbreaker but overall it does not deserve a rise or drop it is fine as is.
The change in scald mechanics was an April fools joke
Vaporeon gets haze, so milotic just has the unique combo of haze + instant recovery (Although, gastrodon gets clear smog whish functions in a similar way, trading hitting behind subs and steel types for being untauntable and not removing any boosts you have). I think it fits fine in C.
My personal experience speaks for the avoidable situation of running a haze mon over roar mon. Haze is better than roar when against stuff like snorlax, reuniclus, and cress
Edit: The set I gave is unique and cannot be mimicked by any water type in the meta! It beats those pokemon one on one because of its uniqueness with haze recover having icebeam for salamence and the best move in the game. Instant recovery is really helpful against those 3HKo situations and Vaopreon should not be running Wish without protect
My opinions on some of the discussion.
Quag: quag seems nichze and I can see it getting a bit more usage but definitely not moving up. If it got stealth rocks and 10 more added bulk to its physical defense then it would be really good, but without those things its very situational but it does perform well in those situations like dealing with gatr and stuff like lucario for instance.
Meloetta: Really cool and underrated mon that I've actually seen a few times on ladder and in some of the uu tours. It is a very versatile psychic type that can play a lot of roles like a sub cm mon, an AV bulky attacker, or a bulky sweeper stopper with t wave and perish song. I completely agree with this moving up as in the times I've seen it, it has performed quite well.
Feraligatr: I don't know if it deserves S rank just yet as there was a lot of hype in the beginning but I feel as if the tier is beginning to adapt to it a little bit and I would say let things simmer for now with gatr. If it continuously is breaking through teams after we see how things play out then I can see it moving up but not yet.
Slowking: I can definitely see this bump happening. Slowking is a top bulky sweeper in the tier and it serves as a very reliable cune check. with fully invested physical defense and very good natural spD, it can take on some of uu's big threats and regen allows you to play aggressively with your sweeps as you can cm and smack some stuff and come back in and do it again if need be. It's One of the best bulky offense mons in the tier that can provide good defensive coverage and still have an offensive presence that can be supported very easily.
Milotic: Im just not sure with this thing. It seems decent on paper with good hp and decent mixed defenses but whenever Ive seen it used it either loses to powerful physical attackers if It's running a specially defensive set or if it's running a physD set, it cant take on special hitters as well so you kind of have to pick and choose with it. Also, it is really pressured to stay at 100% as it can be broken through with a little bit of prior damage. I honestly prefer the offensive set tbf but I guess a bump is possible but I'm not too confident about it.
Tangrowth: Seems like a really underrated threat that can run some interesting sets. The defensive set is a decent gatr check and A good all around wall in general with some annoying moves like leech seed and giga drain to keep it healthy. The life orb offensive set is really powerful as leaf storm is a nuke paired with some really good coverage like focus blast and a synergizing hidden power like ice. And to round it out, it gets regen which is just a really good ability in general and compliments any set it runs, especially the offensive life orb set allowing you to play very aggressively and be able to recover hp when you switch out. I can see a bump happening here as well.
Quag: quag seems nichze and I can see it getting a bit more usage but definitely not moving up. If it got stealth rocks and 10 more added bulk to its physical defense then it would be really good, but without those things its very situational but it does perform well in those situations like dealing with gatr and stuff like lucario for instance.
Meloetta: Really cool and underrated mon that I've actually seen a few times on ladder and in some of the uu tours. It is a very versatile psychic type that can play a lot of roles like a sub cm mon, an AV bulky attacker, or a bulky sweeper stopper with t wave and perish song. I completely agree with this moving up as in the times I've seen it, it has performed quite well.
Feraligatr: I don't know if it deserves S rank just yet as there was a lot of hype in the beginning but I feel as if the tier is beginning to adapt to it a little bit and I would say let things simmer for now with gatr. If it continuously is breaking through teams after we see how things play out then I can see it moving up but not yet.
Slowking: I can definitely see this bump happening. Slowking is a top bulky sweeper in the tier and it serves as a very reliable cune check. with fully invested physical defense and very good natural spD, it can take on some of uu's big threats and regen allows you to play aggressively with your sweeps as you can cm and smack some stuff and come back in and do it again if need be. It's One of the best bulky offense mons in the tier that can provide good defensive coverage and still have an offensive presence that can be supported very easily.
Milotic: Im just not sure with this thing. It seems decent on paper with good hp and decent mixed defenses but whenever Ive seen it used it either loses to powerful physical attackers if It's running a specially defensive set or if it's running a physD set, it cant take on special hitters as well so you kind of have to pick and choose with it. Also, it is really pressured to stay at 100% as it can be broken through with a little bit of prior damage. I honestly prefer the offensive set tbf but I guess a bump is possible but I'm not too confident about it.
Tangrowth: Seems like a really underrated threat that can run some interesting sets. The defensive set is a decent gatr check and A good all around wall in general with some annoying moves like leech seed and giga drain to keep it healthy. The life orb offensive set is really powerful as leaf storm is a nuke paired with some really good coverage like focus blast and a synergizing hidden power like ice. And to round it out, it gets regen which is just a really good ability in general and compliments any set it runs, especially the offensive life orb set allowing you to play very aggressively and be able to recover hp when you switch out. I can see a bump happening here as well.
I hate to be the guy to bring a pokemon back from the Dead but...
Milotic @ LeftoversHaze makes Milotic really really useful in the current meta. Stuff like snorlax, reun, cresselia, and slowking are stopped by this monster! Not to mention that Milotic doeesnt mind scald too much sseeing that it benefits from Marvel Scale. Ice Beam KOs Salamence while salamence would be lucky to 2 hit KO. 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery... Really lucky! I don't like Milotic but I do hate trying to go up against it. I run snorlax a lot and this thing wrecks me not to mention the upper half of the viability rankings! All the things Milotic can beat on a 1 on 1 are below!
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Haze
- Scald
- Recover
- Ice Beam
S rank
Mega Aerodactyl
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Salamence
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune
Haze Burn and switch forcing a rest or residual damage with burn giving you 3 to 2 turn to set up or gain momentum
A+ Rank
Alakazam
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... Beats 1 on 1 if not encore or energy ball!
Cresselia
Haze burn switch
Entei
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Feraligatr
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 123-146 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.... gotta hope for burn and min damage to beat!
NidoQueen
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A rank
Mega Beedrill
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... gotta hope for burn but if he poisons then marvel scale.
Mega Blastoise
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 122-144 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chandelure (not specs)
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Crobat
80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Empoleon (because no recovery)
Krookodile
252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Reuniclus
Haze Switch... Can be a stall war but switch is less boring!
Snorlax
Haze Burn Switch
Mega Swampert
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... need burn
Tentacruel (no recovery)
Some of these depend on the scald burn but this is still really impressive for a C rank pokemon to beat these many high ranked pokemon 1 on 1!
Milotic C to B- rank!
i guess because Toxic it and it beats like none of those mons anymore...
Yah the only real niche milotic has is a competitive sweeper set that you would switch in on either webs, intimidate, or defog, get +2 spatk, and then try to sweep with like scald/surf/hydro, ice beam, hp elec/grass, and dpulse/recover. very gimmicky lol but has a nice surprise factor!!
but ya the defensive set is just too outclassed to justify being used over another bulky water mon, unless u really wanna haze them snorlaxes.
edit:
bc im bored im gonna list out all the relevant things that could activate competitive
arcanine intimidate
m/aero defog
empoleon defog
galvantula sticky web
gligar defog
krookodile intimidate
m/pidgeot defog
salamence intimidate lol and i think defog??
scrafty intimidate
hitmontop intimidate lol
qwilfish intimidate
shiftry defog
and thats pretty much it
but ya the defensive set is just too outclassed to justify being used over another bulky water mon, unless u really wanna haze them snorlaxes.
edit:
bc im bored im gonna list out all the relevant things that could activate competitive
arcanine intimidate
m/aero defog
empoleon defog
galvantula sticky web
gligar defog
krookodile intimidate
m/pidgeot defog
salamence intimidate lol and i think defog??
scrafty intimidate
hitmontop intimidate lol
qwilfish intimidate
shiftry defog
and thats pretty much it
Honestly, I find milotic's competitive set to be even more underwhelming than its defensive set (which is pretty mediocre and largely outclassed for the most part too). Even after a +2 boost, Milotic's power leaves a lot to be desired as it has such average offensive power. Furthermore, one of the most common defoggers, Empoleon, can take milotic's hits for days and most of the other mons that can activate its ability beat it outright/deal considerable damage towards it or at the very least cripple it or wear it down easily with status(Milotic really hates status, even if marvel scale). I honestly see Milotic's defensive set as the only viable set atm (despite being largely outclassed by other bulky waters like slowking, suicune, etc.) in that milotic has both reliable recovery (suicune and a few other bulky waters don't) and can take on things like cm florges or m-blastoise better, something slowking can't do as reliably. Overall, Milotic just doesn't function well as a defog counter, and it certainly isn't sweeping a competent team anytime soon.
K i fukin lied
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax on a critical hit: 303-357 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges on a critical hit: 190-225 (52.7 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah sure florges can just wish stall, but that gives you a free switch into whatever you want. And i dont see how you can compare mence to kingdra lol. Dd mence doesnt run water coverage and scarf mence just outrages, so different mons wall it than kingdra.
Not exactly the same case with gatr since it smacks almost everything in the tier hard, but atleast kingdra can deal with bulky waters easier.
Kingdra doesn't have much going for it in UU right now. Its Crit set is cool once it gets going but it's really hard to get it going because it's a Pokemon that needs two turns or so to become a real threat. It has a variety of different sets that can be run pretty well, but most of them face very stiff competition. Its Specs set and other mixed esque sets have to compete with Hydreigon, Salamence, and even Noivern for a teamslot as most of those have more power in addition to some better coverage like Superpower or Fire Blast. Its Dragon Dance set faces stuff competition from Salamence and Feraligatr, as YABO said, as they are far more brutal as offensive Pokemon in general. It has a few niches like being able to handle Water-types better, but those can only really bring Kingdra so far and are only enough to give it a bit of a niche. Plus most bulky Water-types run a phazing move like Roar nowadays so it'a hard to set up on them. Salamence is definitely a better DD sweeper than Kingdra because it's faster and much stronger, and can run Intimidate and has a Fighting resist which is important in helping it set up in this meta. And it hits much harder. Its Rain Dance set is okay but not that good. Anyways, I think Kingdra is fine in B- for the time being. It has a number of decently effective sets and has the stats to pull them off well but rarely will one actually think "Wow man, I really need a Kingdra on my team because it does 'insert role here' ", because something else will probably do it better.
I still don't see why flygon is different enough from emp or mence, since mence hasI honestly believe Flygon should be C- rank rather than D. While it is completely outclassed offensively by other Dragons such as Haxorus, and many other non-dragons, it DOES have several redeeming qualities: namely its Speed tier, near-immunity to entry hazards, decent bulk and typing, and access to Defog, Roost and U-Turn; STAB Earthquake also hits offensive Pokemon quite hard even off its mediocre attack stat. As such, it makes an excellent pivot and its typing and ability let it switch into a plethora of Pokemon quite easily, and STAB EQ limits the number of Pokmeon that can switch in for free quite severely. Don't judge it for its mediocre offensive qualities, but rather its good support ones, and it should be higher than D Rank. While most would swear by Empoleon as their bulky defogger of choice due to its typing and access to Scald, Flygon's immunity to grounded Entry Hazards, massively superior Speed, and reliable recovery make it more effective for multiple switch-ins in my opinion.
+ the same speed stat
+ much higher offenses (mence has 135/110/100 over flygon's 100/80/100 offenses
+ Better abilities in intimidate or moxie
+ also has an immunity to spikes, as well as defog and roost
+ slightly better defenses at 95/80/80 over flygons 80/80/80
+ DDance
While Emp has
+ much better defensive typing
+ stealth rocks
+ scald
+ SCALD
All flygon really has going over these two is stab EQ, which can't hit Aero, Cro, Bird jesus, or mence, and that is not enough to warrant it a rise.
Gligar is neutral to rocks and isn't grounded, and it has significantly better defenses than Flygon thanks to eviolite so the small amount of extra damage from SR doesn't matter.
Flygon's only niche over Salamence is its support sets, and Flygon's only niche over Gligar is its offensive sets. Taken together, those two pidgeon-hole it right out of viability. I'd say it should remain D-rank.
Flygon also isn't super weak to knock off, and most people assume some sort of choice set (???) so theres the slight surprise factor in the defensive set i guess.
Edit: oops also flygon gets fire punch/blast so he can like 3/4ko steel types like bronzing and forretress which gligar can't really touch lol
but ya flygon is pretty bad i think i tried using him as a defogger for a volt turn team and he just kept dying to everything lol
Fire punch is just bad.
Forretress can't do anything back to Gligar, either. Staying in just gets a pokemon without reliable recovery worn down. If being crippled by Knock Off were a deal-breaker for a wall, then Chansey would be UU and Blissey would be OU. The huge defensive advantage of Eviolite vastly outweighs the knock off weakness inherent in relying on it. Bronzong is not worth running obscure moves to counter. That's kinda the whole point of Bronzong, that he's not common enough in this meta to justify devoting an entire moveslot just for beating him.
Surprise factor is a good point, but that's true of every pokemon that's not viable in UU. No one knows what the heck you're doing with it in this tier.
Surprise factor is a good point, but that's true of every pokemon that's not viable in UU. No one knows what the heck you're doing with it in this tier.
Can we maybe make a list of conclusion reached mons for things like trev, scrafty, and flygon? I mean we have beat flygon to death at this point and the argument never really changes and neither does our rationale for why it should stay D tbh it just spurs up meaningless debate that always ends the same so maybe we should at least drop it until the meta actually changes in flygons favor. Not trying to be mean it just seems like quite a waste of time
At least flygon and scrafty should go down to RU during the next usage update, as long as they keep similar usage to what it is now.
Although getting nonstop crits is nice for kingdra, it doesn't work as well due to the Gen 6 nerf, as well as kingdra having rather low speed and special attack (95/85 spa and speed) It can't even boost it's speed without swift swim, so keep it where it is for now, since it probably won't be getting any better soon.
Although getting nonstop crits is nice for kingdra, it doesn't work as well due to the Gen 6 nerf, as well as kingdra having rather low speed and special attack (95/85 spa and speed) It can't even boost it's speed without swift swim, so keep it where it is for now, since it probably won't be getting any better soon.
Kingdra is a dragon type who sets up on bulky waters. Pretty comparable. Also, regarding the crit set, Kingdra is more or less ass at doing it simply because it takes two turns to do anything. An agility leaves it piss weak, a Focus Energy leaves it incredibly slow. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw any Kingdra set aside from Sub+DD do anything in a game. The DD set is largely outclassed btw, carrying water STAB is pretty much irrelevant as it leaves you walled by more things and only lets you beat Hippowdon pretty much.
Mega Steelix: C ----> Unranked
Simply put, there is no reason to ever use this when Mega Aggron is an option.
Aggron has the same Defense, higher Attack, better typing and a better ability. All Steelix has going for it is STAB Earthquake and marginally higher Special Defense.
Simply put, there is no reason to ever use this when Mega Aggron is an option.
Aggron has the same Defense, higher Attack, better typing and a better ability. All Steelix has going for it is STAB Earthquake and marginally higher Special Defense.
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