Too weak and slow to pull off a DD set, too frail to pull off a Bulk Up set. This coupled with 4x Fairy Weakness in a tier full of them and a weakness to flying, you get something that is just very underwhelming in pretty much any circumstances.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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Too weak and slow to pull off a DD set, too frail to pull off a Bulk Up set. This coupled with 4x Fairy Weakness in a tier full of them and a weakness to flying, you get something that is just very underwhelming in pretty much any circumstances.
Can we call some attention to Sigilyph here? Not suggesting any ranks, but with the conquest thing rolling around it's already gotten some spotlight from what I've seen.
Its only really used because its unranked which people need tobuwe in conquest. In actual competitive play, I don't see Any real reason to use it over Alakazam, which is stronger and faster and is good at revenge killing, or Reuniclus, which is stronger and bulkier and a great win condition with Calm Mind.
Nah, I don't think it's viable enough to run over any other psychic type in the tier. I'd also imagine that being part flying type isn't doing too many favours, with popular Pokemon, such as Gatr and Megadactyl, running around with super-effective moves against it. Overall, I don't think it's worth it.
Not really liking Alakazam being so high. It really isn't anywhere near the level of the other A+ Pokemon and the only big thing about it is Magic Guard + Focus Sash.
Fletchinder requires lots of support (not just running a Defog user), is extremely weak to tons of common Pokemon, struggles to setup for "free" and isn't really a threat without a boost. an even with a boost there are tons of Pokemon that can deal with it effortlessly. I honestly think Fletch is worse than every single Pokemon in B-, but it currently is ranked B.
Fletchinder requires lots of support (not just running a Defog user), is extremely weak to tons of common Pokemon, struggles to setup for "free" and isn't really a threat without a boost. an even with a boost there are tons of Pokemon that can deal with it effortlessly. I honestly think Fletch is worse than every single Pokemon in B-, but it currently is ranked B.
I'll agree that Fletch should probably drop to B- (I love it but it's a pain to build around and this meta is pretty bulky, making it useless without a boost), but I think Zam should stay. It does really incredible work against offense in general, and a fast Encore is a fantastic way to screw with balance and stall, too. It wants about three more moveslots, but its coverage options are as good as it gets in the tier, and it can pretty much always put in work. I think A+ is a fine place for it.
Krook might deserve a rise to A+ as well, tbh. It seems like it has been replacing Queen as the offensive rocks setter of choice lately, and the Taunt set is brutal and needs to be used more.
Krook might deserve a rise to A+ as well, tbh. It seems like it has been replacing Queen as the offensive rocks setter of choice lately, and the Taunt set is brutal and needs to be used more.
Can I propose that Snorlax maybe move up to A+? I've been using curselax and he has been putting in the work. As long as you can get a few curses in and invest into his defenses a bit, not even reckless mienshaos hjk can scratch him. Personally, curselax has won me more than a few battles single-handedly. And that's only one set. I think Snorlax is good enough to be A+
Seconding Krookodile for A+. It has a really good speed tier which lets it check a lot of offensive threats such as Entei and Lucario. Unlike Nidoqueen, it only really needs 2 attacking moveslots (EQ and Knock Off), freeing it up to use Taunt (yes, Nidoqueen gets Taunt; no, do not run it). Krook fits really well in most offensive cores (especially Pidgeot teams), and is great on balance teams for Pursuit trapping Specs Chandelure. It has its checks and counters, but not many of them appreciate losing their item to a Knock Off. Choice Band is also a really good set, and it can even run a Passho Berry set to beat Aerodactyl.
Hitmonlee completely lacks the versatility that fellow Fighting-types Lucario and Heracross possess. Besides, if you want a Reckless HJK abuser, Mienshao actually hits harder and is way faster, on top of possessing the same coverage as Hitmonlee. It can Spin, yeah, but common SR users beat it anyway and proceed to get their Rocks up again; Krookodile is faster and maims Hitmonlee with Earthquake, while Nidoqueen has a useful resistance to HJK and pressures Hitmonlee with its powerful Earth Powers and Sludge Waves. It's just not a reliable Spinner due to how SR setters still easily get the better of it and as an attacker, it's outclassed by every other high-ranked Fighting-type in UU. Keep Hitmonlee unranked.
As a HJK user Hitmonlee is just outclassed by Mienshao. His only niches are as a spinner and an unburden sweeper, but the two roles conflict so you can only do one or the other.
While I'm not quite as dismissive as Kyuzeth on its role as a spinner, it's still pretty bad. Which hazard setters you can beat depends on what coverage you take, and even then many of them require you to correctly predict the switch-in and hit with the right move when they come in. Hitmonlee does have access to knock off, which is a nice and spammable move, but otherwise this thing is insanely prediction-reliant with a wrong call forcing it out harmlessly.
The other unique role Hitmonlee has is as an unburden sweeper. Using fakeout to activate a normal gem makes the unburden boost practically a sure thing, at which point he outspeeds pretty much everything. Without the reckless boost, though, Hitmonlee doesn't hit very hard so it'd be pretty easy to stop if anything moderately bulky is still alive. Even then Hitmonlee isn't very bulky itself so priority is a huge problem for it; CB Entei has a chance to OHKO with Extreme Speed.
I think unranked is probably best. It's just too heavily outclassed in UU, in spite of a few unique niches.
While I'm not quite as dismissive as Kyuzeth on its role as a spinner, it's still pretty bad. Which hazard setters you can beat depends on what coverage you take, and even then many of them require you to correctly predict the switch-in and hit with the right move when they come in. Hitmonlee does have access to knock off, which is a nice and spammable move, but otherwise this thing is insanely prediction-reliant with a wrong call forcing it out harmlessly.
The other unique role Hitmonlee has is as an unburden sweeper. Using fakeout to activate a normal gem makes the unburden boost practically a sure thing, at which point he outspeeds pretty much everything. Without the reckless boost, though, Hitmonlee doesn't hit very hard so it'd be pretty easy to stop if anything moderately bulky is still alive. Even then Hitmonlee isn't very bulky itself so priority is a huge problem for it; CB Entei has a chance to OHKO with Extreme Speed.
I think unranked is probably best. It's just too heavily outclassed in UU, in spite of a few unique niches.
I agree with Hoggg with Krookodile moving up to A+. I have been meaning to propose this since I nominated nidoqueen to A+. I think it works as a physical version of Nidoqueen and although not resisting cool things like Nido does, has its own perks with pursuit, intimidate, and speed. It For sure should be up in A+ imo.
I have tried fletch out lately, and it is actually very good and pairs up well with heliolisk. It obviously needs a well constructed team to make it effective, but I do not think it should move down. +2 kills a lot of the meta and it destroys offense and can do well with balance if the theats are taking care of. All of its checks get a widdled by wilo wisp too making it easier to sweep late game. So keep it where it is pls :]
I have tried fletch out lately, and it is actually very good and pairs up well with heliolisk. It obviously needs a well constructed team to make it effective, but I do not think it should move down. +2 kills a lot of the meta and it destroys offense and can do well with balance if the theats are taking care of. All of its checks get a widdled by wilo wisp too making it easier to sweep late game. So keep it where it is pls :]
One problem I see with hitmonlee is the fighting types he has to compete with. Mienshao comes to mind, and so does machamp. And while Hitmon does have rapid spin, so do a lot of pokemon with even better offensive presence, like mega blastoise. I say Hitmon could be usable, but it needs a lot of support and would only work on select teams with that need his specific niche. And, to be quite honest, I'd use hitmontop over hitmonlee for that intimidate ability.
I'm jumping on the Krook to A+ bandwagon. I've yet to make a team with him (which is definitely a bad thing >_>) but from the matches I've watched and from the matches I've played Krook is a huge threat. Taunt set is brutal, Band set is power, Scarf set is destruction. I may add more later.
As the guy who co-wrote Hitmonlee's UU analysis, please allow me to defend him.
Fake Out + Normal Gem is the wrong way to use Lee as an Unburden sweeper. The correct way to do it is Endure + Reversal- use Endure to drop Lee to 1 HP, activate his Liechi Berry, and launchHJKs Reversals (oops- this was a typo) like there's no tomorrow. Good offensive spinners are also kinda hard to come by in UU; the only solid one I can think of off the top of my head is Mega Blastoise. Lee does not have to be able to directly beat hazard setters to be considered a good spinner- all he has to do is get rid of the hazards once they're on the field. Of course Lee is slower than Mienshao, which is the main reason why he is seen as outclassed. However, as a Reckless wallbreaker, Lee does not have to be Choice-locked; he can switch between HJK and Knock Off at will. (Reckless Mienshao are almost always Scarfed.) Lee also boasts priority in Mach Punch, which Mienshao lacks. This allows him to muscle past faster special attackers, particularly Heliolisk. He can also tank a few special attacks, while Mienshao dies to anything remotely offensive. Moreover, you don't use Lee as both an Unburden sweeper and an offensive spinner; you use one or the other depending on what your team needs. He doesn't have to do everything at once to be considered usable. Finally, a choice-locked Mienshao can be easy to take advantage of, while switching into Lee is much more difficult. Obviously, Mienshao's Speed makes it the better choice the majority of the time, but Lee still has enough to merit a spot in C rank. I'd personally like to see him in B-, but let's take it slowly.
Fake Out + Normal Gem is the wrong way to use Lee as an Unburden sweeper. The correct way to do it is Endure + Reversal- use Endure to drop Lee to 1 HP, activate his Liechi Berry, and launch
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Uh. But yeah, I got my shit pushed in once by an Endure Liechi Berry Hitmonlee. Obviously horribly vulnerable to priority, but Reversal is more than 50% stronger than HJK and has perfect accuracy as well as no recoil against Protect-spamming douches.
Well thats interesting! I rarely use a team with priority but I see a lot of my opponents that don't. Might be fun to try out.
Well, the buffed Extreme Speed from the likes of Entei, Arcanine, and Lucario would still wreck a 1 HP Hitmonlee, though. Also, Prankster users (cf. Whimsicott) will give Hitmonlee a hard time pulling off the Endure + Liechi set.
Nevertheless, I would still appreciate that set because I was one of the witnesses to such greatness since last generation.
Nevertheless, I would still appreciate that set because I was one of the witnesses to such greatness since last generation.
Krookodile is pretty amazing right now as an offensive Ground type due to the scarcity of splashable Ground resists in UU that can actually take on Krookodile reliably. Or rather, UU hasn't really been used to dealing with physically offensive Grounds when it comes to teambuilding (since Krookodile's pretty much the only one), so a lot of teams are left a little vulnerable. It could just be me but with some teams I build I'm often scrambling for a way to fit in a solid Ground resist to relieve some pressure off of my Crobat/Mence/Aero etc. by the end because it sometimes doesn't come naturally as you go along to have a reliable switch in to Krookodile and its Earth Plate EQ like you would in say, OU with Offensive Landorus-T, where it's pretty much obvious that you must have a way to deal with that and all of its coverage moves.
Right now to me that process comes off as a bit more contrived with UU and Krookodile, and I think that's part of why it excels like it is right now.
And the Pokemon that were typically chosen as a switch in to the other prominent offensive Ground type in the tier (Cresselia and Porygon-2) dont really want to take a Knock Off.
I encourage you all to try Earth Plate > Dread Plate on this monster sometime, you'd be surprised how unprepared some teams are for boosted Earthquake spam from this after their one flimsy flier/levitator is weakened or gone.
I support Krookodile to A+.
Right now to me that process comes off as a bit more contrived with UU and Krookodile, and I think that's part of why it excels like it is right now.
And the Pokemon that were typically chosen as a switch in to the other prominent offensive Ground type in the tier (Cresselia and Porygon-2) dont really want to take a Knock Off.
I encourage you all to try Earth Plate > Dread Plate on this monster sometime, you'd be surprised how unprepared some teams are for boosted Earthquake spam from this after their one flimsy flier/levitator is weakened or gone.
I support Krookodile to A+.
Azelf is one of the best Hyper Offense leads in the tier... Its high offensive pressure along with the omnipresent threat of a ExploNuke guarantees rocks on your side while also dealing heavy damage or outright OHKOing almost anything that switches in is very good for HO....Seriously move up to A-. Although its viability in ORAS has decreased due to the fact it needs Focus Sash to avoid kills from all the new threats in the tier which in turn weakens its ExploNuke due to lack of Normal Gem, Azelf is a solid Pokemon which can play its role almost flawlessly and must be kept in mind when building a team in this tier.
I just noticed that Azelf is in a very small speed tier. Only tying with M-Absol and M-houndoom. The former which will sucker punch you anyways, and the latter which is barely used. I wonder if sacrificing some speed EVs with enough to outpace heliolisk or infernape would ideal and pouring the rest in bulk. I'm not sure of how much of a difference it would make but it could possibly avoid some OHKOs from certain pokemon. Obviously not super effective ones though but possibly enough to warrent running normal Gem again?
If you think it'll be beneficial, then by all means go for it. I don't know if the left over Evs will be all that much to invest into bulk, but I'd like to see the results of you choose to run an azelf like that
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