OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)

[alexwolf]

The only teams that don't really need a steel-type are Hyper / Heavy offensive ones. Bulky offense / Balance can't afford to sac something every time Dragonite comes in so they can revenge-kill with Mamoswine. ScarfMence is an even bigger issue because it commonly uses Dragon Claw early-game almost purely so it can't just be immediately revenge-killed by something like Mamoswine after a KO.

Every team without a steel-type is weak to various dragons and the fact that we can't even hit them with Gliscor and our current Keldeo set just compounds that issue.

Why should we sack something every time Dnite gets in? As i mentioned again Dnite cannot set-up on Gliscor, nor it can OHKO, it usually avoids to set-up or stay in against Keldeo, due to HP Ice being so popular in CM sets, so only Ttar is the poke that can give to Dnite a free turn. And guess what, almost all teams have 1 poke that gives a free turn to Dnite. Yeah we don't have a steel to take outrages, but we can easily revenge kill it if it uses Outrage, so that's 1 kill at most. Not to mention that as mentioned already, it can't set up almost against every poke. Don't forget guys that now that we have CBTar support we can easily run HP Ice on Keldeo to deal with dragons, as CBTar can deal with Jellicent and Tentacruel to an extend. And if we add Rotom-W to the team, Gyarados is covered too, to an extend. So if we now go with Mamo, then add Rotom-W for rain teams and Torn-T, and then possibly add a scarfer, where will Ddnite find the chance to set-up? It can't kill Gliscor and Rotom-W without Outrage, and we have sand to break MS. So at worst he kills 1 poke and we revenge kill. Same with Mence, except that he sets up way harder.

And i don't think that i need to adress Lati@s, as they get handled by Ttar. MixMence and MixDreigon will be problematic because we lack a steel, but which team can wall those anyway? Not to mention that these are wallbreakers, which are rare, as stall is rare as well.

What i am trying to say, is that although running a steel type is usually the way to go for balanced teams, it is not a absolute rule, and for this reason we shouldn't restrict our options with this mindset.

 

[dice]

every balanced team needs a steel type, can you quit that "don't restrict our mindset" bs because i'm sure all of us are p fed up with it (or at least i am since u've said it like 519520959 times -______________-). without a steel-type you are p much boned by any dragon as penguinx said. with sr + spikes specs latios beats down ttar with prior damage while band haxorus can just earn a free ko each time. dd nite with multiscale gets a free +1 and you may as well just say goodbye to a poke. a steel-type is almost a necessity in this metagam unless ur running heavy HO

 

[alexwolf]

every balanced team needs a steel type, can you quit that "don't restrict our mindset" bs because i'm sure all of us are p fed up with it (or at least i am since u've said it like 519520959 times -______________-). without a steel-type you are p much boned by any dragon as penguinx said. with sr + spikes specs latios beats down ttar with prior damage while band haxorus can just earn a free ko each time. dd nite with multiscale gets a free +1 and you may as well just say goodbye to a poke. a steel-type is almost a necessity in this metagam unless ur running heavy HO

With SR + Spikes a lot of counters are unable to work, but this means nothing. Don't let an offensive team get so much hazards against you, or use a Rapid Spinner. So Ttar will usually be enough to handle Lati@s. How is Dnite getting a free DD every time it comes in? Gliscor is faster and uses Taunt, Keldeo can use HP Ice if we all agree on this, so Ttar is the only set-up chance Dnite will have. And even if Dnite gets a DD as we switch out with Ttar, we can then simply go to Gliscor, take an Outrage, and Baton Pass to Mamo for the kill. Haxorus is more problematic, obviously, if we don't run a steel type. However it won't be unmanageable, as in order to take Gliscor down it has to use Outrage, and then get revenge killed by Mamo. This is a 1 for 1 exchange.

Where i am tryinng to get is that Gliscor is an awesome pivot against physical dragons, forcing them to use Outrage, taking the hit and then Baton Passing to Mamo for the kill. I don't care if we put a steel on the team, as both options (picking steel and not picking steel) are fine by me, but i believe that Mamo offers a lot for the team. What is the relation between picking Mamo and a Steel type you might ask... Well if we pick Mamo now, we won't be able to form a solid 2 poke defensive core and have room to fit a scarfer later, which many here think is a necessity. So we must either forfeit the scarfer or the Steel in order to fit Mamo, and this is the relation between those two.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Ok i am not making another nomination this time around because all my ideas i was thinking of have already been posted lol however if you guys want to add Trick Room to the threatlist i got something you can use(Although its probally not needed)

Trick Room Offense

Taunt Gliscor helps in not letting this team set up Trick Room. Tyranitar can also trap Slowbro. However if Conkeldurr carries Ice Punch that can be problemental because it can beat down Gliscor and Tyranitar comfortably. None of these pokemon really mind Sandstorm, and Dragonite can prove annoying to take down and hard to switch into being able to threaten Gliscor with its powerful Draco Meteor cand Tyranitar with its Superpower. Porygon2 can also trace Gliscors Poison Heal making it hard to Toxic but besides that Keldeo handles it quite nicely

 

[ginganinja]

With SR + Spikes a lot of counters are unable to work, but this means nothing. Don't let an offensive team get so much hazards against you, or use a Rapid Spinner.

Hi, I would like you to look at our team and see if you can spot how threatening Ferrothorn is to our team, which can easily set up Spikes and suchlike. We don't really have much room for a rapid spinner (also Deoxys-D is threatening to use regardless which ALSO can spike) so please don't discount entry hazards until we have a solid plan for them.

How is Dnite getting a free DD every time it comes in?

O.k, here is an example. Keldeo has just killed something, and Dragonite switchs in at 100%, MS intact, and no Sand up. YOu need Keldeo allive to combat the Gliscor they have (its just an example), anyway, Dragonite has its free switch, and what do you do.

If Dragonite is CB, it promptly either OHKOs Keldeo, or 2KOs Gliscor with Outrage, if Dragonite is DD, it gets its free Dragon Dance on Gliscor (remember, MS is still intact), and then spams Outrage as you bring in Gliscor (if your really unlucky it grabs a second DD as you sub, then spams ES / FP to break the sub and STILL is at 100%). Regardless, Dragonites presence forced us to sac something which is not advised, ergo we need a dragon resist. Here is another example, we are up against a Rain team, which uses Latios. Do you really want to cripple the fuck out of Tyranitar switching into a DM, losing us the weather war and then the game? These are just examples of where a steel type perhaps might be useful. Discounting it, I think would be a big mistake.

Remember please, that we will not always have momentium, nor will we always have a Sub up on Gliscor. It is important to be able to switch into things, and vs Dragons we lack a solid switch in. Sure, Tyranitar can trap Latios, but in the process it can provide a free set up for something else, and I don't believe Gliscor is running enough bulk to tango with Dragons. I am pretty sure we need a steel type man, and it seems like im not the only person who thinks this :)

EDIT

Didn't you suggest a steel type last round T_T

 

[tehy]

In light of all this, i'd like to suggest SD lucario.

Sd Lucario can definitely take a single meteor or outrage without dying. He lacks the bulk to take multiple dragon attacks, true, but he has an added benefit of,, destroying just about all of the metagame after an SD with a sub up. We'd need to give him ice punch if we really want him to check dragons, so jellicent can actually wall him, but other than that it's all good.


Lucario@ Life Orb
Adamant
Ability:Justified
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 SpD
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed
-Ice Punch
-Swords Dance

Adamant because i can't think of what timid is really outspeeding at this point, 4 SpD because of genesect, of course.

 

[Reymedy]

Finally.. I'd like to chane my nomination to fit better some needs.

@

252 HP / 32 SpA / 220 Def
Bold Nature +Def /-Atk
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Volt-Switch
-Hidden Power [Ice]

Why this change?
I felt like there is already enough offensive presence, and a pokemon that could take some damages and put Rocks would be really good. Of course Heatran can do it but the Fighting/Ground weakness was really annoying in this team. The Fire weakness of Forretress is easier to play with.
In the end he works like another Gliscor, granting momentum with Volt-Switch and supporting his team well, no need to say that against Dragons he turns to be a godsend, punishing any Outrage spamming.
Oh, and why not Ferrothorn? Didn't want to make Breloom's life easier and Forretress deals with the shroom so well. Jirachi would also fit the bill but a Mamoswine would be really threatening at this point, especially if we invest later in a revenger killer Dragon.

I'm sure I saw that we could change nomination but somehow I can't find the specific post where it is written so if I'm wrong I'll just delete this post.


I hope I'm not offensing anyone here, anyway given my awful play in the end against Liligant that should have cost me the game, I believe I'm the most offensed by sharing it xD
Well trained Tyranitar!

 

[Azotal]

What this team's perfect teammate would currently be is a counter to the rain. With the even greater rain abuse recently, each weather team should have a way to counter rain. I would recommend bulky Rotom-W, as it has become a niche Pokemon for countering rain teams, but due to this it has also become predictable. Therefore I'm going to nominate a blast from the past (and one who packs quite a wallop!):

@ Leftovers
Calm Nature
Ability: Storm Drain
252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Earth Power | Scald | Recover | Toxic

Gastrodon conveniently combats many common Pokemon in the meta such as Thundurus-T, Politoed, Jirachi; Genesect as well as provides a suitable switch in for almost all Pokemon (due to its absurd bulk).

Gastrodon just seems to fit this team perfectly, and I'd like to see it fill up slot 4.

 

[exotic]

I would suggest that you use Specs Gastrodon, Keldeo and Gastrodon share a lot of same counters so specs could just weaken those counters with an storm drain and specs boosted hydropump/surf. The set would be something like this :

Gastrodon @ Choice Specs
Storm Drain
252HP 252SpA 4SpD
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Earth Power
-Ice Beam
-counter/recover

Counter for genesect (u-turn).

Also, it makes more use of a succesfull subpass.

 

[tehy]

So after those two suggestions, i have to ask:Why not LO gastrodon with recover?
Gastrodon@Life Orb
Storm Drain
Modest
252 Hp 252 SpA 4 Spe
-Hydro Pump/Surf
-Earth Power
-Ice Beam
-Recover

With recover and max hp, gastrodon can still take on rain teams pretty well. With LO, if he gets a sub passed and a storm drain boost (Pass it on water attacks), then he can really do some damage, and can do it even without any of that. Specs' problem here is that, after the move gets used, whatever walls that move will come out and have fun, so you can't really get your sweep on. You can try to avoid this by spamming surf/hydro pump, but since you probably are in on a bulky water, that won't work too well, even in rain. Hydro pump or surf is the obvious power/accuracy deal. I put in 4 speed Evs because i felt like we might as well go ahead and speed creep with those last four.

You get the idea.

 

[dice]

may as well nominate something...

skarmory​

kacawww~
​

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 220 SDef / 24 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird / Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Skarmory provides our team with a few things that it is currently lacking-- a Stealth Rock'er and a Steel-type. Much like Bronzong, with a specially defensively EV Spread it can take on several weaker Special attackers, however it has a few things Bronzong doesn't -- phazing and recovery. Bronzong is easily worn down after having to repeatedly taking HP Fire's and the likes, and Skarmory can just Roost them away. With Skarmory's stellar defense it can still take on Dragonite very well, and it still beats Salamence's Fire Blast. Unlike Bronzong it beats big boy Haxorus. Tornadus-T is walled by Skarmory, and not to mention it can take a Volt Switch from Rotom-W, Roost it off, and do well versus most team types. Shed Shell is an option if DragMag gets too obnoxious, the EV's can be played around with as well. I just use these for an Odd HP, Defense boost, ability to outspeed Wobbuffett, and the rest in SDef.

 

[alexwolf]

The problem with Skarmory is that the two best Torn-T sets right now outright beat it. LO with Taunt obviously fucks it, and Specs easily 3HKOes while Skarmory can do zero things against it. Not to mention that most physical Dragons fuck Skarmory pretty easily. +1 Dnite does 61.07 - 71.85% to Skarmory with Fire Punch, while Skarmory can only phaze and hope something threatening doesn't come in. DD Naive LO Mence does 67.66 - 80.23% to Skarmory with Fire Blast, which is not great at all, as it can easily 2HKO with Fire Blast on the switch.

Imo SpD Skarmory should only be used in rain teams, where it truly shines, as it not longer fears Fire moves from Dragons, both physical and special, acting as a full counter to them.

In this team Zong seems much better as it can at least damage back the Dragon/Torn-T types that it walls.

 

[ioliolk]

@

252 HP / 32 SpA / 220 Def
Bold Nature +Def /-Atk
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Volt-Switch
-Hidden Power [Ice]

Great idea, but why Stealth Rocks over Spikes? This Forretress doesn't need to spin that often, because we don't have that big of a SR weakness, so it would be more beneficial to use the extra turns it gets with Spikes. Also, there are a lot more Stealth Rock users than there are Spikers, so it would be easier to fit another on the team.

 

[Reymedy]

Great idea, but why Stealth Rocks over Spikes? This Forretress doesn't need to spin that often, because we don't have that big of a SR weakness, so it would be more beneficial to use the extra turns it gets with Spikes. Also, there are a lot more Stealth Rock users than there are Spikers, so it would be easier to fit another on the team.

I just used the set that seemed to give what we need the most right now. But that's true I should have said that these slots are highly debatable and they are likely to change as our team shift.
True that he doesn't spin often, however since we have yet no Poison Type I thought this was a safe option to keep Spin for this rare situation that can screw the team really hard (especially Keldeo).

As the team that I was testing (on the replay) had Superpower>StealthRock on Mamoswine I just used StealthRock on Forretress instead. I guess it's debatable as I said.

 

[bubbly]

Right, so I'm going to be a complete boss and do this:

Abomasnow @ Expert Belt
104 HP / 252 Atk / 88 SpA / 64 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Ice Shard
- Hidden Power (Fire)
- Earthquake / Blizzard (if Blizzard then obviously use more SpAtk EV's)

Lol I'm pretty sure I'm the first guy ever to suggest two different auto-weathers in one CCAT. Abomasnow actually has a lot of justification behind it though. It obviously provides us with an incredible check to Rain - absorbing Water type attacks easily, Ice Shard to revenge Tornadus and Thundurus, and generally smashing stuff with its type coverage. Just to be clear, no pokemon which is ever used on Rain offense can switch into this set without risking a 2HKO. Aboma also helps a LOT against Sun. It's a great check to all Chlorophyll sweepers, nd if nothing else means that we'll always be able to keep Sun off the field if needed. Luring Ninetales with Earthquake is always sexy too.

Other arguments, in bullet points cos I'm lazy:

- Great synergy with Gliscor. Can easily take on Water types, with or without a SubPass. In return, Gliscor takes Fighting attacks easily, and handles most common users of Rock and Steel attacks.

- Having Ice Shard means we won't need to overprepare to the same extent against Tornadus-T and Dragons. Compared to Mamoswine, Abomasnow is much more effective against Rain while still as useful against Sun teams (and arguably more so against the ever so common Lavos Sun build, because we don't auto-lose if Tyranitar is trapped).

- Using Abomasnow doesn't necessitate Rapid Spin at all - in fact, I think we should try as far as possible to avoid a defensive Rapid Spinner, in favour of an effective lead or even some kind of offensive spinner. Our fundamental strategy, the SubPass, is only possible with momentum on side. Having to suffer for a large passage of play against Deoxys-D offense while trying to take out their Gengar (or god forbid Jellicent) and remove the hazards is definitely something to avoid.

 

[Reymedy]

It can 2HKO everything but wont Abomasnow have really a hard time entering the battle? I feel like he's OHKO by alot of things in both Sun and Rain. And his Ice Shard can't even kill Thundurus-T after SR damage. Mamoswine thanks to his big Atk stat can do it.
Moreover given his weakness to SR (that is really annoying, I played a SemiStall Hail in suspect with the same set -EVs different because Blizzard- and it's limiting his usage so much). That is to say, while alot of pokemons can't switch into you without fearing the 2HKO, Abomasnow can switch into almost nobody without fearing the KO after some SR damages. Given his horrible speed stat, the pokemons that don't fear Ice Shard will switch in freely and kill him back before he can proceed to give them the second blow.

However on paper, this idea is strong.. but I'm not really experienced yet in team building and I feel like this gonna be hard to make Abomasnow reach his full potential here. Maybe he will come onto the field once, but so many things can just 0HKO him with his poor speed, and if we fail to predict the opponent's switch correctly he will be most of the time really far from the 2HKO threat.

Not to say that Hail hurts everybody in the team so far.
What I like in this idea is the fact that you can "clear" the weather, making a deadly combo by switching between Tyranitar and Abomasnow.
But I have many fear that are just waiting to be swept away if possible =D


PS : Maybe i'm just an awful Abomasnow user aswell .. x]

 

[bubbly]

I don't think it should be too much of an issue, getting him in safely, but I'd quite like some second opinions. One of my favourite teams to use at the moment is Abomasnow / Tyranitar / Keldeo / Latias / Sandslash / Bronzong, which is very similar to our projected CCAT model. Slash does Spin, but even with SR down I never really felt like Abomasnow was lacking in opportunities to come in. If you compare it to Mamoswine, for instance, you can come in virtually everywhere it can (threatening the Ice Shard in many cases), but with the huge bonus of switches against every Water type not named Keldeo, in exchange for being SR weak.

I guess the thing about Aboma on this team is it only needs to come in a few times per game to do its jobs, making SR much less threatening for it than on a dedicated Hail team. Change weather if needed, wallbreak vs pretty much all types of offense, and perform revenge killing duties.

 

[Reymedy]

I'd need more experience on this point to really debate. I just felt when I was using this set that I had a really powerful thing in my hands, but once I misspredict enemy's action (wrong switch) Abomasnow is forced out due to his low speed.

By the way, we are looking for SR setter, a stealth and something that deal with rain teams along with Gliscor. Didn't I talk about Empoleon in my first nomination !
I just thought back of it, and well it's still the best defensive partner of Gliscor. It seems an odd choice though ;o


@ClubbingSealClub #395 "whistle" :p

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Okay, so someone suggested Heatran but then retracted so I'll make it my nomination

Heatran @ Life Orb / Shed Shell
Trait: Flash Fire
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
~ Stealth Rock
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Hidden Power Ice / Grass

this Heatran does several things for us. First, it provides SR which as you all know is important as hell. Second, it's a steel type with decent defenses, which is also good to have. Third, it checks sun rather well. And most importantly, thanks to his Ice resistance, he gives us an alternate SubPass recipient for Gliscor (this can create wonderful mind game opportunities :D).

Fireblast is STAB and his really hard off Heatran's SpA. Earth power his things that may resist fire blast such as ttar it other Heatrans. HP ice let's us smash dragons and HP grass will let us fight off rain teams better. SR is SR.

LO will provide great damage output, but Shed Shell can be a good option depending on how duggy-paranoid we get. Keep in mind that Heatran won't always have a substitute up when Dugtrio comes in.

 

[Murk]

About Abomasnow, I actually think that's easily our best option so long as we have some way to at least delay entry hazards going down. I've played against that Sand / Hail team bubbly posted quite a few times on the ladder and it's very effective but it does (from what I saw) make a lot of use of Sandslash's Spin. Granted, it's more defensive than our CCAT team will probably turn out to be, and therefore relies more on not having hazards down, but it's still a bit of an issue.

 

[tehy]

Honestly, abomasnow and gliscor have the worst synergy i could think of. Typing?If you pivot from abomasnow to gliscor, how is he regenerating health? Especially since we have no spinner for SR, and he'll be subbing constantly. I can't think of one other pokemon that deals with all of our problems 100%, but why do we need one? Let's just go with a partial solver, that is not quite as crappy.

 

[Murk]

^That's just a dumb argument, plain and simple. Their typing's synergise well, as you seem to half-admit. The only actual objection you raised is that Hail impinges Gliscor's ability to recover. By 6%. And Hail will only commonly be up if we go directly from Aboma to Gliscor, in which case, we'll be facing something which we can actually beat and SubPass on. Having the full 12% recovery is worthless unless Gliscor is in against something it can beat. Even with Hail up, it barely hurts Gliscor's ability to stall because the Hail will hurt the opponents pokemon more than Gliscor even if they carry Leftovers.

Finally, like bubbly said Abomasnow isn't a crappy pokemon at all, it has quite a few niches. Considering Mamoswine is already one of our front runners, and Abomasnow has pretty much the same utility with Ice Shard (although it does narrowly miss out on the OHKO on the Therians after SR, but again Sand / Hail / LO damage all rectify that within one turn) but a lot of other advantages, I think it should be considered. If you need an example, look at ShakeItUp's old RMT (I think it was called Arcana Force or something) which used Tyranitar + Abomasnow effectively together, without requiring a spinner.

 

[Harsha]

• Specially Defensive Rotom-W
• Whimsicott
• Specially Defensive Bronzong
• Life Orb Mamoswine
• Specially Defensive Jirachi
• Life Orb Latias
• Baton Pass Jolteon
• Swords Dance Lucario
• Forretress
• Specially Defensive Gastrodon
• Choice Specs Gastrodon
• Life Orb Gastrodon
• Specially Defensive Skarmory
• Expert Belt Abomasnow
• Offensive Heatran

These are our numerous nominations for teammate number four. When voting, keep in mind what our team requires (you can find that in here and here). Rain is a biggie, but sun can be problematic as well. We don't want to compound any weaknesses, but we need to be able to take on speedier offensive threats (so we want a Choice Scarf user) and we need a good defensive backbone with entry hazard support. Like always, nominate three Pokemon and the winner will be chosen soon, with bonus points awarded as per usual.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Offensive heatran
Spdef RotomW
Forretress

 

[ganj4lF]

Specially Defensive Rotom-W
Specially Defensive Skarmory
Specially Defensive Bronzong