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OU CCAT: Nidoking Edition
- Thread starter Pocket
- Start date
My vote probably wouldn't help, buuuut...
Wish Jirachi.
Wish Jirachi.
Jirachi (Wish)
Thanks for voting!
By an an almost unanimous vote, our next teammate is to be Wish Jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
~ Iron Head
~ Thunder Wave / Body Slam
~ Wish
~ Fire Punch / U-turn / Stealth Rock
With all that said and done, are team is starting to become what it has set out to be: balanced, with plenty of support for a Nidoking sweep. We have two teammates left to round out the weaknesses still present. It's up to you guys to fix them! I'll leave the discussion open for one week, until January 7, 2012.
Have fun!
By an an almost unanimous vote, our next teammate is to be Wish Jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
~ Iron Head
~ Thunder Wave / Body Slam
~ Wish
~ Fire Punch / U-turn / Stealth Rock
With all that said and done, are team is starting to become what it has set out to be: balanced, with plenty of support for a Nidoking sweep. We have two teammates left to round out the weaknesses still present. It's up to you guys to fix them! I'll leave the discussion open for one week, until January 7, 2012.
Have fun!
As of now, we lack a priority user. I would suggest Scizor, but that would just compound our fire weakness. Not many good prioity users have a fire-resist, but the most notable one is Dragonite. CB Dragonite to be exact.
Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
- Extremespeed
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
Jirachi's Wish can reset Dragonite's Multiscale if need be. Outrage will allow us to have an option just to smash the opposing team with brute force. Most importantly, we will get Extremespeed in order to revenge kill a lot of threats and put priority into the mix. The paralysis support already in place for this team means Dragonite can even attempt a sweep of his own.
Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
- Extremespeed
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
Jirachi's Wish can reset Dragonite's Multiscale if need be. Outrage will allow us to have an option just to smash the opposing team with brute force. Most importantly, we will get Extremespeed in order to revenge kill a lot of threats and put priority into the mix. The paralysis support already in place for this team means Dragonite can even attempt a sweep of his own.
Now that we've added Wish Jirachi as a teammate, I'd like to consider Substitute + Dragon Dance Gyarados as a possibility for our fifth teammate member. Let's check out the set:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 56 HP / 248 Atk / 204 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Bounce / Stone Edge
Seth Vilo recommended a similar set earlier on, but I think it's more applicable now then ever. Substitute alleviates Gyarados of worry from the likes of Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, while Dragon Dance allows us to go for the sweep. At +1 / +1, Gyarados is capable of outpacing and OHKOing Starmie with Stealth Rock by using Bounce. In terms of physical attackers, Intimidate allows for plenty of free switch ins, which gives us a free turn to set up a Substitute, Dragon Dance, or switch to Rotom-W or Nidoking.
Defensively, Gyarados will be losing HP due to Stealth Rock damage and Substitutes; our local Wish Jirachi patches up this issue with its useful Wish support. In terms of Rotom-W and Gyarados, the two cover each other's weaknesses pretty darn well for two Water-types. Rotom-W can take some Electric-type attacks while Gyarados holds up well enough against Grass-types in a pinch. Virizion also makes a great partner by absorbing special attacks with its fantastic SpD stat while Gyarados can stop physical threats. Finally, Gyarados supports Nidoking greatly by providing many switch ins. It can lure in Electric-type attacks that Nidoking laughs at while softening physical threats with Intimidate. Although Gyarados takes a good chuck from Stealth Rock (25%), most of our team resists Stealth Rock, making one weakness acceptable. Gyarados also is immune to Spikes damage and Ground-type attacks aimed at Nidoking. Overall, I believe that Gyarados fits quite well with the team by bringing a great offensive presence, two powerful STABs, and plenty of switch ins for fellow teammates.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 56 HP / 248 Atk / 204 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Bounce / Stone Edge
Seth Vilo recommended a similar set earlier on, but I think it's more applicable now then ever. Substitute alleviates Gyarados of worry from the likes of Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, while Dragon Dance allows us to go for the sweep. At +1 / +1, Gyarados is capable of outpacing and OHKOing Starmie with Stealth Rock by using Bounce. In terms of physical attackers, Intimidate allows for plenty of free switch ins, which gives us a free turn to set up a Substitute, Dragon Dance, or switch to Rotom-W or Nidoking.
Defensively, Gyarados will be losing HP due to Stealth Rock damage and Substitutes; our local Wish Jirachi patches up this issue with its useful Wish support. In terms of Rotom-W and Gyarados, the two cover each other's weaknesses pretty darn well for two Water-types. Rotom-W can take some Electric-type attacks while Gyarados holds up well enough against Grass-types in a pinch. Virizion also makes a great partner by absorbing special attacks with its fantastic SpD stat while Gyarados can stop physical threats. Finally, Gyarados supports Nidoking greatly by providing many switch ins. It can lure in Electric-type attacks that Nidoking laughs at while softening physical threats with Intimidate. Although Gyarados takes a good chuck from Stealth Rock (25%), most of our team resists Stealth Rock, making one weakness acceptable. Gyarados also is immune to Spikes damage and Ground-type attacks aimed at Nidoking. Overall, I believe that Gyarados fits quite well with the team by bringing a great offensive presence, two powerful STABs, and plenty of switch ins for fellow teammates.
Hmm.
5th pokemon along sounds like a good spot for a late game sweeper. We could also do with a dedicated Dragon Killer since it's inevitable we're going to run into the Multiscaled beast at some point.
With this in mind I'd like to nominate Life Orb Weavile
Weavile @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Ice Shard
- Night Slash
Come in, hopefully force a switch and depending on what you predict they send in either hit them hard or get a Swords Dance in.
Pros: Blistering speed, priority, great neutral coverage and STAB ice attacks.
Cons: SR weak, 2x fighting weakness, easily revenged.
5th pokemon along sounds like a good spot for a late game sweeper. We could also do with a dedicated Dragon Killer since it's inevitable we're going to run into the Multiscaled beast at some point.
With this in mind I'd like to nominate Life Orb Weavile
Weavile @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Ice Shard
- Night Slash
Come in, hopefully force a switch and depending on what you predict they send in either hit them hard or get a Swords Dance in.
Pros: Blistering speed, priority, great neutral coverage and STAB ice attacks.
Cons: SR weak, 2x fighting weakness, easily revenged.
So by now, we should be taking a look at some potential problematic Pokemon or strategies. As of right now, the team has incredible difficulty dealing with Sun teams, Chlorophyll sweepers in particular, whom can run through the team with their Grass STABs and Fire pseudo-STABs. Since we are, after all, basing this team around Nidoking, I feel the team should adopt another method for weakening Special walls, and giving way for Nidoking to wreak havoc. The Pokemon I am thinking of is Substitute Hydreigon, this Pokemon isn't exactly the bulkiest of walls, but given the offensive nature of this team, Hydreigon seems to me a better fit than something like, say, Latias. It resists both Fire and Grass, and has sufficient bulk to get by. It also happens to act as nice insurace against Rotom-W+Scizor Voltturn cores, which is always nice. Essentially, we get in Hydreigon, Sub Up to ease prediction, and proceed to tear gaping holes in the opponents's defenses due to Hydreigon's outstanding coverage.
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast / Surf
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast / Surf
Yea, NatGeo asked me to hold fort while he's away, so I'll keep this project going :)
With our current line-up here are the major threats:
Drought - NWO is spot on that this team loses against Sun teams. Nothing but Rotom-W has a chance at surviving Sun-boosted onslaught from sweepers like Scarf Darmanitan, Volcarona, and Heatran. Rotom-W can only deal with one Fire mon before the second Fire-type plows through the team.
Grass-types - These includes Chlorophyll Sweepers from Sun teams, as nothing on the team survives Grass + Fire offense. The good thing about this team, is that Thunder Wave on Jirachi and Rotom-W prevents Chloro and Fire-type Sweepers from setting up. However, Sleep Powder Venusaur and Nasty Plot Celebi are still gonna disrupt this team.
Fighting-types - No reliable Fighting-resist means that Pokemon like Terrakion and Mienshao can simply spam their powerful STAB move and kill something.
Heavy Offense - After the loss of Deoxys-S, Heavy Offense has become less prominent, but they still exist, with Pokemon like Espeon to fill in Deoxys-S's void. Haxorus, Dragonite, and SD Scizor would be hard to break with this team.
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Heavy Offense, Fire-types, and Fighting-types can be checked with physically-bulky Gyarados. Intimidate neuters Physical Sweepers and Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave disrupts set-up. Gyarados and Jirachi together puts a solid plug on Dragon Dancers. Gyarados not only provides a solid physical defense and key resistances that this team lacks, but also provides paralysis support to this relatively slow team. As Birkal mentioned, although Gyarados is SR-weak, combined with its complementary defense with Jirachi, it easily receives Wishes.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
Scizor provides further check to Fighting- and Dragon-types, as well as providing a check to Grass-type Sweepers, with its powerful Bullet Punch.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
Jolly has some perks, such as outrunning usual Scizor counters like Calm Heatran, Magnezone, non-choiced Rotom-W, and taking them out before they can retaliate. It also has a nice perk of being faster than most Stallbreaker Mew, allowing it to pick off Mew before getting burned. Scizor provides some nice Steel-type breaking power to aid in Virizion's sweep.
With our current line-up here are the major threats:
Drought - NWO is spot on that this team loses against Sun teams. Nothing but Rotom-W has a chance at surviving Sun-boosted onslaught from sweepers like Scarf Darmanitan, Volcarona, and Heatran. Rotom-W can only deal with one Fire mon before the second Fire-type plows through the team.
Grass-types - These includes Chlorophyll Sweepers from Sun teams, as nothing on the team survives Grass + Fire offense. The good thing about this team, is that Thunder Wave on Jirachi and Rotom-W prevents Chloro and Fire-type Sweepers from setting up. However, Sleep Powder Venusaur and Nasty Plot Celebi are still gonna disrupt this team.
Fighting-types - No reliable Fighting-resist means that Pokemon like Terrakion and Mienshao can simply spam their powerful STAB move and kill something.
Heavy Offense - After the loss of Deoxys-S, Heavy Offense has become less prominent, but they still exist, with Pokemon like Espeon to fill in Deoxys-S's void. Haxorus, Dragonite, and SD Scizor would be hard to break with this team.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heavy Offense, Fire-types, and Fighting-types can be checked with physically-bulky Gyarados. Intimidate neuters Physical Sweepers and Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave disrupts set-up. Gyarados and Jirachi together puts a solid plug on Dragon Dancers. Gyarados not only provides a solid physical defense and key resistances that this team lacks, but also provides paralysis support to this relatively slow team. As Birkal mentioned, although Gyarados is SR-weak, combined with its complementary defense with Jirachi, it easily receives Wishes.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
Scizor provides further check to Fighting- and Dragon-types, as well as providing a check to Grass-type Sweepers, with its powerful Bullet Punch.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
Jolly has some perks, such as outrunning usual Scizor counters like Calm Heatran, Magnezone, non-choiced Rotom-W, and taking them out before they can retaliate. It also has a nice perk of being faster than most Stallbreaker Mew, allowing it to pick off Mew before getting burned. Scizor provides some nice Steel-type breaking power to aid in Virizion's sweep.
Seconding CBNite. DNite handles sun teams effectively, and complements Jirachi nicely. It also gives us an additional Fighting, Fire, Grass, and Ground resist. CBNite is always an incredibly bulky and potent physical attacker, something we currently lack on this team. It also hits extremely hard immediately and forces predictable switches, and provides us with needed priority.
Dragonite doesn't handle Fighting-types too well, though. I can see this team having trouble with Lucario, Terrakion, Mienshao, and Toxicroak. Gyarados does a great job tanking STAB Fighting moves thanks to Intimidate. Jirachi + Gyarados does a really good job handling choiced-Terrakion (and non-choiced for the matter).
Also a quick reminder that we will vote on the 7th as NatGeo has planned, so make sure to submit your nominations before then!
Also a quick reminder that we will vote on the 7th as NatGeo has planned, so make sure to submit your nominations before then!
Scarfed Latias, helps out with the fighting and sun weakness, as well as being a solid and unexpected revenge killer and being able to outspeed the common chlorophyll sweepers. Substitute hydreigon is also a good shout but means fighting types have free reign.
A very plausible thing I think is to drop nidoking, because lets face it, Nidoking sucks, and the large number of volt turn teams on the ladder mean its not hard for scarfedrotom-w or landorus to force nidoking out before it has a shot at doing anything.
Nominating: Scarfed Latias, Drop Nidoking
A very plausible thing I think is to drop nidoking, because lets face it, Nidoking sucks, and the large number of volt turn teams on the ladder mean its not hard for scarfedrotom-w or landorus to force nidoking out before it has a shot at doing anything.
Nominating: Scarfed Latias, Drop Nidoking
I rarely chime into these threads as i'm not too experienced with the recent metagame, but...
...drop Nidoking? Wasn't that the whole point of the team? I disagree with this sentiment, i think we need to keep Nidoking. If only because that was the basis on which the team was created.
I'm going to chime in here and nominate Bulky AcroBat Gliscor as a candidate for 5th slot.
Gliscor@Flying Gem
Adamant, Sand Veil
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Speed
Swords Dance
Acrobatics
Earthquake
Substitute
(shamelessly taken from the analysis page...)
If there's one thing i really hate facing aside from Mr. Multiscale over there, it's this thing. This team is in need of a good fighting resist, and Gliscor has that covered. Not only does Gliscor easily tank fighting-type attacks with it's natural defensive bulk, but with an AcroBat set it can actually do some damage back to Fighting-type Pokemon as well (along with Earthquake to take care of pesky Lucarios ruining your fun). About the only thing it really has to worry about is Mienshao's HP Ice, which is rendered useless if you have a sub up. You'll KO with Flying Gem Acrobatics before they can get a hit on you, regardless if they carry HP Ice or not. The sub also helps against those Mienshao's looking to Fake Out (though why anyone would Fake Out on Gliscor is beyond me), and a resisted HJK does little even if you don't have a sub up at the time. Similar logic applies to Physical Lucario's Ice Punch, as long as you can get the sub up before it comes in. Earthquake would KO (or at least knock a huge chunk off the bulkiest of Lucario) before Ice Punch could get to you (or your sub, which is even better).
As for dealing with Drought teams, anything pure Fire (Ninetales, i'm looking at you!) gets hit hard by Earthquake, and anything even part Grass can take a nice beating from Gliscor's Acrobatics, while Substitute ensures Gliscor can survive one surprise attack you might not have predicted. If Sleep Powder is such a problem for this team, we can always change to a Poison Heal SubProtect Staller later (which combined with Jirachi's Wish support is a huge pain), but i chose the AcroBat set to keep in the theme of Bulky Offense for now.
...drop Nidoking? Wasn't that the whole point of the team? I disagree with this sentiment, i think we need to keep Nidoking. If only because that was the basis on which the team was created.
I'm going to chime in here and nominate Bulky AcroBat Gliscor as a candidate for 5th slot.
Gliscor@Flying Gem
Adamant, Sand Veil
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Speed
Swords Dance
Acrobatics
Earthquake
Substitute
(shamelessly taken from the analysis page...)
If there's one thing i really hate facing aside from Mr. Multiscale over there, it's this thing. This team is in need of a good fighting resist, and Gliscor has that covered. Not only does Gliscor easily tank fighting-type attacks with it's natural defensive bulk, but with an AcroBat set it can actually do some damage back to Fighting-type Pokemon as well (along with Earthquake to take care of pesky Lucarios ruining your fun). About the only thing it really has to worry about is Mienshao's HP Ice, which is rendered useless if you have a sub up. You'll KO with Flying Gem Acrobatics before they can get a hit on you, regardless if they carry HP Ice or not. The sub also helps against those Mienshao's looking to Fake Out (though why anyone would Fake Out on Gliscor is beyond me), and a resisted HJK does little even if you don't have a sub up at the time. Similar logic applies to Physical Lucario's Ice Punch, as long as you can get the sub up before it comes in. Earthquake would KO (or at least knock a huge chunk off the bulkiest of Lucario) before Ice Punch could get to you (or your sub, which is even better).
As for dealing with Drought teams, anything pure Fire (Ninetales, i'm looking at you!) gets hit hard by Earthquake, and anything even part Grass can take a nice beating from Gliscor's Acrobatics, while Substitute ensures Gliscor can survive one surprise attack you might not have predicted. If Sleep Powder is such a problem for this team, we can always change to a Poison Heal SubProtect Staller later (which combined with Jirachi's Wish support is a huge pain), but i chose the AcroBat set to keep in the theme of Bulky Offense for now.
I agree with the scarf, but latios over latias being taken here. The team could use a decent fighting resistance seeing as nidoking will probably not last long. Here's a set:
Latios @choice scarf
EVs: 252 sp. atk, 252 spd
Timid (+spd, -atk)
Psyshock
Draco meteor
Hidden power (fire/fighting)
thunderbolt
Very effective revenge killer/cleaner. Psyshock is for switching in special walls, Draco meteor decimates in a word, everything unresisting that isn't carrying an egg in a kangaroo pouch. HP fire eats steels like ferrothorn or forretress but fighting lets him hit heatran but many won't dare switch in for fear of surf. Thunderbolt is handy for revenge killing gyarados or fast waters.
Latios @choice scarf
EVs: 252 sp. atk, 252 spd
Timid (+spd, -atk)
Psyshock
Draco meteor
Hidden power (fire/fighting)
thunderbolt
Very effective revenge killer/cleaner. Psyshock is for switching in special walls, Draco meteor decimates in a word, everything unresisting that isn't carrying an egg in a kangaroo pouch. HP fire eats steels like ferrothorn or forretress but fighting lets him hit heatran but many won't dare switch in for fear of surf. Thunderbolt is handy for revenge killing gyarados or fast waters.