OU "The Golden Standard"

[Friar]

The OU tier is the most played tier in competitive pokemon, so why don’t we have a thread dedicated to pure debate and discussion on the strategies and Pokemon that define and then redefine the tier? Stark has stickies for UU and Suspect discussion, as well as another thread for the Ubers metagame, but never before has there been a thread for players to discuss OU. That is what this thread intends to be: a place for discussion on the OU tier. Here’s my two cents to start us off:
I am recently getting back into OU, after a long stint in UU, and am amazed at how fast this metagame moves. I left OU when Metagross was just starting to become the ultimate lead, now it’s a tossup again in terms of a lead match up. My Swampert comes out on top against some leads, but gets squashed by new Anti-Lead Starmies that are popping up more and more. Some are using the fact that everyone is using anti-Metagross leads to bring back their old Azelfs and Aerodactyls to the starting role.

The metagame seems to be a struggle between Offense and Stall. “Offense” being loosely defined, because some are pure glass cannon teams, while others opt to maintain a decent amount of bulk. Every team needs a way around Stall if they expect to win with any regularity, my personal favorite being Bulky Gyara. There are certainly 12 pokemon that are going to be seen in most every battle, but with that being said, I think there isn’t much to “over centralization.” I will say again that the OU metagame is above all dynamic, so that with each pokemon that begins to dominate, innovative players will find a way to send their teams in the other direction to win their matches.

That’s just two ideas trying to spark discussion. In this thread, feel free to post movesets that are working for you, discuss specific pokemon that are significant for a specific reason, or talk about the OU tier in general!

EDIT: This thread flows in the following way: I say "My current team is using Tinkerbell Celebi to open up sweeps for Heatran and Latias, and it's working really well because it eliminates TTar and Scizor" (thats true by the way) then the next poster says, "I believe Celebi is best used as a defensive supporter because it counters Gyarados and is in general a solid switch in to bulky waters, it can also run HP Fire for Scizor" and so the conversarion flows. The thread is not as specific as others in Stark, so try to keep posts focused to a particular point so intelligent discussion can evolve.

 

[Tarquin]

Hey :)

I think this thread is a good idea! I often feel the need to discuss OU stuff like this alot, but the threads are too specific :O.

Oh and I'm sorry about your Swampert Lead, I pioneered the new Anti-Lead Starmie and with Legacy Raider's help, we improved and publicised it :S -looks a bit sheepish and guilty-

I'll also post a moveset!
You mentioned combatting Stall with BulkyGyara, well here is my take on Gyarados!

Bouncing LumDos

Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Adamant
Intimidate
EVs: 252 Att, 198 Spe, 60 Hp

Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Bounce

The aim of this set is to set up 2 Dragon Dances for the Ultimate Sweep by taking advantage of many team's answers to Gyarados, Paralysis.
It goes like this :

Gyarados comes in on, lets say, a Scizor Bullet Punch. I Dragon Dance as Celebi switches in. Celebi uses Thunder Wave (if they Grass Knot it will only to 60% max), I Dragon Dance once more. I can now Bounce to avoid being Thunder Waved against. If he stays in, he will die from a +2 STAB SE Bounce. Nothing he switches in will like taking that either, especially with the 30% paralysis rate. Now I can sweep unhindered. After 2 Dragon Dances even Jolly Scarf Flygon won't outspeed me, so I am home free =D.

By the way, I run a fragile offensive team, Stall owns me if I don't play at my highest standard :P. Although LumDos really does well once their phaser is dead =D


Good Luck with the thread!

 

[Luxormaniac]

Easy. OU is simply defined as the set of all Pokemon NOT defined as Uber (aka mindblowingly broken) and above a certain constant usage percentage on the Standard ladder. Therefore, it is important to remember that OU is not defined by strength. This mindset leads people to say "Yanmega should be OU." It doesn't matter if it should; it's not someone's irrational decision. Rather, it is the voting of the Smogon community at large via team building. X-Act's threads can help you grasp this concept quite fully.

 

[Friar]

Sorry luxor, wasnt asking for help in OU, or for the definition of it, just noticed we didnt have a thread for pure OU discussion.

Back on topic, getting around Anti-Lead Starmie is pretty hard with a frailer offensive team because it can spin away vital entry hazards and its great type coverage can punch holes in a frail team fast. I have been working around it with a very specially bulky CB Scizor that Pursuits it immediately to eliminate its threat later in the game. Simply switching in something that has a potential to lay SR makes most players bring Starmie back in, and that predictability can be exploited as well.

 

[Tarquin]

I also use a Specially Bulky Scizor :P MIne is to survive Celebi's Hp Fire and U-turn it back for a OHKO and to tackle Latias better. Scizor's tend to switch into my Starmie alot, but Hydro Pump is great for that situation. It OHKOes Offensive Scizor and somewhat bulky versions after SR and will often put Bulky Scizor into SR KO range xD.

LO Starmie is a pursuit weak pokemon that pursuit users hate to switch into.

 

[Friar]

Yes, in switching in Scizor needs to careful, but in the opening few turns (when there is no SR) Starmie almost always switches because it doesn't want to take the U Turn, and boom, Starmie is crippled by Pursuit. Switching in can be a bother, but once in, bulky Scizor can usually come out on top without Stealth Rock in play. And if they dont switch, they still take a 120 base power move (40 x Technician x Super Effective), so both are crippled. In my team's case, that is a win situation, as I have a backup scarfer in case things get out of hand, while the opponent's spinner and a decent offensive threat is essentially out of my hair.

 

[Luxormaniac]

Alright then, in this metagame Anti-Lead Starmie (and I thought mine was unique) is certainly fantastic. Hydro Pump will at least 2HKO any bulky lead, and you can even finish them off with Rapid Spin.
Bulky offense imo is the best threat to this metagame. And this is my take on Gyarados:

Resttalk DD Gyara:
Why choose one when you can have both?

Gyarados @ Leftovers/Wacan Berry
Impish
Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP/220 Def/36 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

As LR has said, this "rips stall apart." And it does, if they lack Vaporeon and their phazer is dead. And his use goes far beyond cracking stall. This Gyara is a physical sponge, setting up and healing while its at it. Then it can start its bulky sweep and destroy the remainder of the foes team once its counters are out of the way. I only say "counters" in the practical sense- in the strict academic sounce, nothing can safely come into a +2 Waterfall and still threaten back, much less a +6.

I believe the EVs are right, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Caelum]

Yeah, this is not going to turn into a proxy for the "Creative movesets thread".

The OP could use some work to guide discussion to be honest, but I'll see if I can get this back on track / prevent it from going off track.

I think it's interesting how the metagame is continually becoming anti-metagame. We're moving away from "general" consistent sets to more metagame specific sets. Bizarre things like Babieri Berry Tyranitar, anti-lead Starmie / Lucario, etc are considered viable, useful sets.

On the note of things like "bulky" Scizor; the metagame is all around generally more bulk-oriented offense. If you look at the most common Pokemon we have things like Scizor, Gyarados, Heatran, Metagross, Salamence, and Tyranitar - all of whom have a decent amount of bulk to help them perform adequately. Heavy defensive teams seem to have fallen significantly as of late. Things like Skarmory, Forretress, Suicune, Cresselia etc aren't very popular. People are leaning towards bulky offense, and over-specialized sets.

I'm a bit tired and don't have a lot to say but I tried to get this more about what the metagame is like right now (mini-metagame analysis discussion?) like the other threads that exist.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with a lot Caelum has said about Anti-Metagaming. A lot of the most effective sets have been based on this, but then end up becoming less and less common (Scarf-Lead Jirachi anyone?).

Around the time Latias came down to OU, I decided to make CB scizor Careful with over 400 evs in HP/sp.DEF. Have never regretted it.


Caelum-- About Bulky Offense, I'm starting to wonder what the the heck "non-bulky" offense is. Salamence, Tyranitar, Metagross, Heatran, Gyarados, Latias, it's not just that they're bulky, but that they generally have some of the best stats and movepools available for attacking. Even when people were dedicated to "full offensive teams," I am pretty sure that these guys would have found use in them in part because they just are some of the most effective attackers.

Many offensive pokes who have bad to mediocre defensive stats even
have defensive perks, like Flygon, Lucario, Jolteon and Starmie who are all equipped with useful resistances and immunities. I have even heard people mention Luke and Flygon (who are both weaker statwise than Skymin!) as "bulky offensive" pokemon, of course this mostly refers mostly to their resistances to both common attacks and passive damage.

Among more frail offensive pokemon, many like Gengar and Jolteon have never found their place on full offensive teams, but are better suited to working with teammates who are tanks or walls. This was largely the case even near the start of the DP metagame. One could even say those two have defensive perks though, with some useful resistances/immunities.

Really, Infernape is the only "frail" offensive pokemon I can think of who commonly teams up with other offensive pokemon on full offensive teams.

Anyway, what is a "non-bulky sweeper," because it just seems like common sense that in order to be a top sweeper you would need some staying power in either raw stats or defensive perks from typing/abilities.

 

[Friar]

I think Gengar and Jolteon do not qualify as bulky sweepers, they are used purely for interesting resistances/immunities and raw offensive power. They can be used as a great synergy pokemon (like RTGyara/SpecsJolt) to come in to battle while taking as little damage as possible. I would call these resistances offensive perks rather than defensive because they allow them to get into battle and above all cause damage. Jolteon does not take two hits from anything really, I remember reading even the resisted Scizor Bullet Punch can 2HKO. These frailer pokemon do merit a spot on bulky offensive teams though, because they often hit much harder than their bulkier counterparts, and therefore may pack just enough power to overwhelm the opponent.

 

[Pisti]

I've found Scarfed Scizor to be a great Pokemon as it easily revenge kills Pokemon like Latias, Lucario, and Azelf (providing sash is broken).

Sandstorm is being pretty dominant in the metagame as usual, with a mixture of offensive teams and stall teams being around. Most teams I've seen that are offensive have Tyranitar to set up sand, while most stall teams I've seen have had Hippowdon in them. I've seen a few teams without sand, but not many.

Suicide leads like Metagross are pretty much everywhere from what I've seen, with a few Anti-leads. I've also seen alot of Porygon2 to counter Gyarados and Salamence...I can't think of anything else to say.

 

[A.P.]

Anyway, what is a "non-bulky sweeper," because it just seems like common sense that in order to be a top sweeper you would need some staying power in either raw stats or defensive perks from typing/abilities.

I would say Weavile fits your definition perfectly, since no one uses Psychic moves anyways.

 

[Indragon]

From what I've seen recently, usage of ScarfJirachi has been rising, lead or otherwise. Leads generally have the Trick+SR combo but others are running Fire Punch to counter Scizor.

Breloom has had a surprising spike in popularity lately and has had some success whenever I've faced it. Among sweepers, CB Scizor dominates but Salamence is becoming rarer for some reason, and most seem to be MixMence. Stall is practically non-existant, Blissey and Cress, etc. have seriously dwindled possibly due to the rise of mixed sweepers. New "Anti-Metagame" sets are occasionally replacing the standard - I've seen random stuff like Special-Scarfed TTar and other MixedTars running around (so of course, sand is everywhere).

Frail sweepers are definitely out but Gengar is more common than at the beginning of Platinum. Most are paired with Heatran, who, instead of Rotom, Zapdos, etc. is now being used to counter Scizor, but of course gimmicks like Counter-Gar are also noticeable

 

[blasphemy1]

I tend to run a Jolly Gyarados as a lead, which lures Starmies into Thunderbolting(not sure why they don't just double-switch?), then I send in my Careful CB Tyranitar, who survives the Surf, and Pursuits them for the kill. Lead Starmie can be annoying, but as long as you can use your team's resistances, you can easily stop it simply by using Pursuit to not allow it to re-enter the battle.

Like Indragon said, Scarf Jirachi seems to be used even MORE. I myself have a team with Jirachi on it, and it works wonders. Iron Head 2HKOs the obvious suicide leads, as well as Mamoswine and Tyranitar, the former of which tends to be quite popular as a lead. Fire Punch can be used late game to counter Scizor, U-Turn allows for scouting and getting a light hit on Metagross/Heatran, and Grass Knot takes care of Hippowdon/Swampert.

Gengar is now running HP Fire + Substitute to deal with Gengar, which may increase the amount of HP Fire-less Latias, so they can more easily revenge kill instead of relying on Pursuit vs. Bullet Punch.

Bulky leads are the new "trend", as most players would rather have the one up with a Swampert, Metagross, or Heatran than blowing up their lead after a SR, which is extremely predictable and handled by Intimidate --> Tyranitar/ghost/resist.

SpecsJolt runs train on any team without a dedicated special wall, since with some prediction it isn't hard at all to get around bulky grounds.

I have found Jolly Scarf Flygon to be an incredible assett to offensive teams, being able to absorb Thunder Waves, switch into Earthquakes, scout, and revenge kill Gyarados/Salamence. IMO much more valuable to a team than Salamence, and I expect Flygon to see more usage(than Mence) since Stealth Rock doesn't hamper him at all.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Geh, I don't think I could use Jolly Flygon. Adamant's damage output is so . . . bad . . . as it is . . . :S

 

[MetaNite]

I'm finding Scizor to be a bit less common, especially SD Scizor. And the foe many times doesn't hesitate to switch it in. For instance, it doesn't think twice about switching into a Choice Band Tyranitar's Stone Edge, and even Rotom Appliances not named Heat. They seem to forget the threat of Will-O-Wisp, and are just like, Scizor, kill, Scizor, #1 OU Pokemon, Scizor, win! More and more people are just spamming U-turn too. Tyranitar usually gets in another Stone Edge on that Scizor. Scizor is not invincible.

At Chou, I believe non-bulky offense is stuff like Porygon-Z, Alakazam, Lucario, maybe with a Swampert thrown in there. At least that's what I've been seeing.

I also agree with blasphemy1, that SpecsJolt can easily sweep teams that lack a dedicated special wall or a Scarf Flygon. Thunderbolt gets great neutral coverage, allowing you to OHKO many sweepers, such as Infernape, Lucario, Salamence, Gengar, Gyarados, Starmie, etc.

Something interesting I'm seeing with leads is that they are adapting to handle Swampert leads. I've seen Heatran with Hidden Power Grass, Infernape with Grass Knot, and even Azelf with Grass Knot too. The best lead I've used is TrickScarf Uxie, which always does its job and is bulky enough to not be killed by any lead, bar the rare Choice Band Tyranitar lead. Even then, you can usually get away.

Breloom is as annoying as ever. You always have to let one of your Pokemon to sleep before you can bring in a counter. Thankfully, Moltres is a great counter with Substitute to block Leech Seed. Breloom is certainly top tier material, for some reason not all that many people use it. That just reminds me of his R/S analysis page, especially the Opinion section. A+ Pokemon stuck in BL.

MixApe is on a huge low. Although Infernape as a lead is rising perhaps, as well as Choice Band Infernape, MixApe is continuously getting walled by Latias and the abundance of Gyarados, Tentacruel, and Starmie.

Well, that's all I can think of right now.

 

[Pyromanic]

Sand is hardly dominant, it is only on 22% of teams.

 

[Tarquin]

I have only seen about 3 other fragile offensive teams in the last 50 or so games.

It seems that my once normal team concept is now far more unique, as bulky offense takes over the metagame. It is easy to understand why, as Fragile Offense is worn down more easily by stall, so it requires much more skill to tackle these teams.

Bulky Offense is more well-rounded, although it lacks the same high tempo and high powered threats as Fragile Offense.

Does anybody think Fragile Offense will make a comeback? I don't mind being different in the mean time, playing with defensively weaker teams really builds your playing skills, which you need to rely on more than your pokemon's bulk.

 

[Chou Toshio]

MixApe is on a huge low. Although Infernape as a lead is rising perhaps, as well as Choice Band Infernape, MixApe is continuously getting walled by Latias and the abundance of Gyarados, Tentacruel, and Starmie.

Well, that's all I can think of right now.

Infernape | Nature | Naive | 44.0

Naive is fair to associate with mix-ape as lead ape is generally hasty, and keep in mind that LO is still infernape's top item at 53%, so even if every single jolly infernape was an LO sweeper (which we know is just flat out not true) we would still be left with almost 40% of infernapes being mixnape. Considering that many jolly nape's are the choiced variety (leaving even more LO infernape as Mix-nape) and adding back in any hasty/mild/rash infernape's that might be also playing "mixnape," it's obvious that mixnape is still the dominant set.

Maybe it's not "practically every infernape" like it was before, but whenever one seems an infernape not in the lead, it's still fairly safe to assume it's mixape.

Even at the start DPPt (Platinum changes to Shoddy), mixape's percent use has not changed much. Example last September:

Infernape | Nature | Naive | 52.2
Infernape | Item | Life Orb | 60.3

So percentage wise, there are more of other infernapes. What you won't get from just looking at that is what the total infernape data shows:

Septemper 2008: Infernape | Usage | 50915 /183396 = 27.7%
March 2009: Infernape | Usage | 87366 /244583 = 35.7%

Infernape has shot up in usage since before, now being in the top 5 when it once lingered below the top 10 in the older DP metagame. With Infernape's increased total usage and using naive as a rough estimator for mixnape, the data shows that Mixnape is actually a tiny big MORE common (.44*.357 = 15.7%, .55*.277= 15.2%) in the metagame than last september, or rather the usage of mixnape in the metagame is almost unchanged from last september (just comparing this march and last september).

While it is true that a lot of other infernapes are also running around now (and keeping latias on its toes with CB U-Turn or Rash HP Ice being used predictively), that does not change the fact that mixape still is a dominant set in the metagame.

Though, these days it almost has to be combined with a really powerful latias check, like scizor. Actually, I'm rather surprised that Tyranitar is only listed as Infernape's 7th most common teammate, weird. Scizor is of course by and far the most common teammate, though that could be said about almost every other sweeper in OU.

 

[Gingivitis]

I agree with Breloom being such an awesome pokemon. People often expect to see Breloom Sporing off the bat when it can Substitute and start sporing later, and it forces so many switches (especially with Leech Seed) much like Machamp, it's not even funny. The only absolute counter would be Celebi, but once that thing is gone, Breloom can cause a lot of havoc.

I also find Mamoswine leads to be very effective, pressuring early on with its powerful STAB Earthquake, and its ability to Endeavor to cause a lot of damage to slower pokemon when it's low on health, though I tend to save it for Ice Sharding would-be pests.

 

[13Random37]

yes, Babieri Berry Tyranitar is really a deadly surpsise.
Example: Tyranitar switching in a Blissey that doesn't carry TWave.
he'll switch out, maybe to scizor, his only ttar-counter.
now you'll get a DD for free.
Scizor will use Bulletpunch or Superpower.
If it uses Superpower, you will ohko it with Fire Punch.
CB-Scizor Bulletpunch does about <60% afaik with Babiri Berry taking into account.
Yeah, I'm using Fire Punch/Crunch/Stone Edge/Dragon Dance.
Since some TTars carry IB, not much people would switch in a Gliscor or a Hippo.
Espacially in late game, this ttar seriously will kick asses =)

 

[Objection]

Tyranitar switching in a Blissey that doesn't carry TWave.

This may have something to do with the teams I face, but what Blissey doesn't carry TWave?

 

[MetaNite]

Chou, there's no difference between Naive or Hasty really. The analysis has both natures listed for both sets. Not in an actual number, but as a percent compared to the past months Infernape is at the lowest at least that I've seen.

 

[blasphemy1]

Geh, I don't think I could use Jolly Flygon. Adamant's damage output is so . . . bad . . . as it is . . . :S

Well Flygon's best assett is his great neutral coverage, resistance to Stealth Rock, and useful resistances/immunities. Being able to revenge kill Salamence and Gyarados(tho Jolly isn't required) is a huge help for any team, and Outrage still does plenty to things that take neutral from it. Unfortunately, he won't be 2HKOing Swampert or anything relatively bulky, but you need a Choice Band for that, which isn't a good revenge killer. I dunno, I find Jolly Scarf Flygon to be more useful than any other dragon ATM, as my team doesn't rely on tremendous power, rather useful switching, by using U-Turn on Flygon/Jirachi, and Baton Pass on Jolteon.

 

[Myzozoa]

Im seeing a lot less blissey carrying t-wave, actually.