OUTC Round #9 [ENTRIES OPEN] .post332

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But about bulldoze, how much Attack investment should be used? I am thinking about using it over Protect, although I may be able to run Ferrothorn without Power Whip atm.

You will need quite alot of investment just to break Jirachi's subs, iirc it was 172 EVs. Probably not worth since you lose so much defense in return. Also Ferrothorn is very prone to getting burned, making Bulldoze a very shaky check. Another point is that many SubCM Jirachi have been running Defense investment lately, making it impossible for Ferrothorn to break its sub regardless how many Attack EVs it has.
 
@gsumbreon: Running two scarfers isn't that good an idea, I'd recommend you change ScarfTar to CBTar, it's far more effective in dealing with threats :)

I've had a lot of success running 2 scarfers on my actual ladder team (Keldeo and T-tar), and its really effective (rating was steadily improving, and I stopped somewhere around 1930). It takes out big threats before they can get a chance to really hit me, and then I can set up freely and clean up. Plus, CStar finishes off CBtar and steals momentum in the mirror match. Plus, his purpose is generally dealing with faster special threats, and he has enough attack already to get the job done; scarf ensures that he'll finish them before they finish him.
 
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I've had a lot of success running 2 scarfers on my actual ladder team (Keldeo and T-tar)
The difference being that Scarf Keldeo is only slower than Scarfed Latios(amongst scarfers) whereas Scarf Chandelure is slower than Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Mence, etc, meaning any "common" scarfer is outspeeding your whole team.

Also, can you explain the Lando-T EV Spread? Just intrigued...
 
Genre: Sand Balance

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Everyone's eyes draw right to Cacturne, I know it. Anyway, I'm not crazy. Here is my team rationale:

Slowking + Ferrothorn: Slowking and Ferrothorn became my defensive core. I didn't want to do a Trick Room team (even though 5 out of these 6 Pokemon suit TR very well), and this core also screamed "RAIN," so I made myself avoid that. Slowking is my special wall and Ferrothorn is my physical wall. These two Pokemon provide the bulk of my support options. Ferrothorn gives me rocks and paralysis support, while Slowking's set is much further from standard than Ferrothorn's. This is because I gave myself insurance from absence of a spinner via Magic Coat, letting it bounce back hazards, as well as the Toxics that Slowking tends to draw in. It also bounces back Spore from Breloom, Amoonguss, or Smeargle.

Cacturne: Cacturne was added for a few reasons. 1) Cacturne is just awesome and is very underrated. 2) I wanted to SpikeStack, and Cacturne was my Spiker. 3) The water immunity was very helpful for a free switch into Politoed or Starmie, letting me get out Spikes. This core makes my team very rain-proof, and I now have a source of priority--Sucker Punch. The attack stat rivals that of Terrakion.

*Cradily could be used in this slot, but Cacturne has Spikes and a more offensive nature. People who wanted to modify this team to make it more defensive should use Cradily here.

Tynraitar: Having Ferrothorn, a Regenerator, and a cactus, this team screamed Sandstorm. I needed special bulk more than physical bulk, so Tyranitar became my inducer. With Stealth Rock covered by Ferrothorn, Tyranitar was free to run 4 attacks. I played around with its set a bit until I got my final product, which I will go into detail with since it is very unusual:

Stone Edge: The only straightforward move, this is my only STAB and does good damage on most targets.
Dragon Tail: Tyranitar is my phazer, removing things such as DD Dragonite. This move's effectiveness is amplified by the hazards on my team.
Fire Blast: Tyranitar is my Scizor/Ferrothorn lure. With a Fire Gem, non-Occa sets are burnt to a crisp easily. I haven't come across an Occa variant yet with this team, but Chandelure can switch into either pretty easily and force them out. Hazards can give me the extra push I need.
Thunder: Tyranitar also seems to bait Politoed. Since its ability brings rain, I use Thunder on a predicted switch-in; it becomes 100% accurate upon the change of the weather and comes with a 30% paralysis rate.

Chandelure: My spinblocker, my "F" in the FWGG core, my Fighting immunity, and most importantly, my nuke.

With Ferrothorn and Cacturne, I knew a Fire immunity would be helpful. Four Pokemon came to mind: the premier Fire-type, Heatran, the physical tank, Arcanine, the nuke, Chandelure, and the underdog, Houndoom. Chandelure was chosen since it could spinblock. I wanted to experiment with the Specs set since it is an absolute nuke behind a base 145 Special Attack. With a bit of prediction Chandelure can get 2-3 kills within 5 turns, including on Rotom-W and Landorus-T. HP Fighting was chosen over the usual Energy Ball because I already have 2 grass-types, two water resistances, and a water immunity. Also, Chandelure is no longer walled by Heatran.

Stoutland: My cleaner, a good Pokemon for any Sand team that is not Stall. Stoutland was originally a Choice Band user, but often Stoutland was the last Pokemon I had standing, and the inability to switch moves came back to bite me, so I chose an Expert Belt instead to bluff the usual Choice Band.

What this team handles well: Rain. This team is anti-Rain, and specifically anti-Politoed. Even if I lose Tyranitar, Ferrothorn has Sandstorm to erase other weather conditions. Stall is rare these days, but between all the hazards, Magic Coat, and an excellent wallbreaker, this isn't too hard.

Threats: Conkeldurr and Terrakion are the biggest threats to this team, due to the 4 Fighting weaknesses. However, Conkeldurr gets worn down by hazards, and Chandelure can come in on a predicted Bulk Up or Fighting-type move and blast it. Stoutland's EV spread ensures it outspeeds 252+ Scarf Terrakion under sand by 1 point. Superpower then dispatches it.

Vote for my team!

Importable:

Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Power Whip
- Sandstorm

Slowking (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SAtk / 240 HP / 12 SDef / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Scald
- Magic Coat
- Focus Blast

Cacturne (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 240 HP / 4 SDef / 12 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spikes
- Drain Punch

Tyranitar (M) @ Fire Gem
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Brave Nature
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder

Chandelure (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Stoutland (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 164 Spd / 252 Atk / 12 SDef / 80 HP
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SAtk
- Return
- Superpower
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
 
@Explorer I feel like just by the looks of it Scarfed Latios is a big problem for you. I would add Pursuit on Tyranitar over Dragon Tail or Thunder to help deal with Latios. Thunder wave can help but it's a sure way to cripple it for Stoutland to sweep after it's THunder waved.

Why the 12 SpDef EVs on stoutland? I don't really see how that is useful. Can you explain that?
 
@Explorer
I feel like you're completely wasting two team slots in Cacturne and Chandelure. I understand you want a water immunity, but the fact that Cacturne is too frail to do anything besides spam spikes is a complete waste of a spot. Why not give Ferro spikes and switch out Cacturne for say, Celebi who still doesn't mind Sandstorm and can set rocks so ferro doesn't have to? As for Chandelure... I'm not sure what he brings to the table. This is kind of counter productive as compared to my last post, but why not switch it for Jellicent (you get your water and fighting immunity you want), still give ferro spikes, and then add SR Terrakion? Gives you rocks and arguably better coverage against Tyranitar, who otherwise has the potential to 6-0 your team if it has Superpower. Also I may be wrong but doesn't Thunder's accuracy drop to 50% in all weather besides Rain? Or is that just sun? Either way, I feel it isn't a good idea to run it over Crunch/Pursuit which could help this team not be partially walled by Jellicent and Latias or just completely run over by Latios.

I seriously can't believe Cacturne has been effective at all, I'm not sure you've actually playtested this.
 
@Explorer
I feel like you're completely wasting two team slots in Cacturne and Chandelure. I understand you want a water immunity, but the fact that Cacturne is too frail to do anything besides spam spikes is a complete waste of a spot. Why not give Ferro spikes and switch out Cacturne for say, Celebi who still doesn't mind Sandstorm and can set rocks so ferro doesn't have to? As for Chandelure... I'm not sure what he brings to the table. This is kind of counter productive as compared to my last post, but why not switch it for Jellicent (you get your water and fighting immunity you want), still give ferro spikes, and then add SR Terrakion? Gives you rocks and arguably better coverage against Tyranitar, who otherwise has the potential to 6-0 your team if it has Superpower. Also I may be wrong but doesn't Thunder's accuracy drop to 50% in all weather besides Rain? Or is that just sun? Either way, I feel it isn't a good idea to run it over Crunch/Pursuit which could help this team not be partially walled by Jellicent and Latias or just completely run over by Latios.

I seriously can't believe Cacturne has been effective at all, I'm not sure you've actually playtested this.

I have playtested this and done decently. Cacturne is probably the LVP, so maybe I should switch it out for a better Stealth Rocker and give Ferrothorn Spikes. Chandelure is actually doing surprisingly well due to its sheer power, but it has nothing else going for it besides the three immunities and the ability to outspeed non-Scarf Scizor.

While I can't change the Pokemon without being disqualified, I can remodel some of the sets. Terrakion is a potentially very good replacement for Cacturne.

@Explorer

Why the 12 SpDef EVs on stoutland? I don't really see how that is useful. Can you explain that?

Okay, the usual Stoutland spread is 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe with an Adamant nature. However, with this spread Stoutland comes 4 POINTS SHORT of outspeeding +Spe Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Keldeo. This spread lets me hit the speed benchmark of 260, letting me outspeed those guys by 1 point. Attack is maxed for the obvious reason.

More speed appeared unnecessary, so the remaining EVs went to bulk. 80 HP gives Stoutland a Stealth Rock number, and the remaining 12 EVs were placed in SpD rather than Defense because Stoutland's one weaknesses mostly comes in the form of physical moves.

Thanks for the suggestions!
 
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This team is a pretty much basic Rain offense with combinations of Slowking and Toxicroak. SpecsKing is a very good counter to Keldeo, which basically gives this ta no problem at all, which I like very much. SpecsSlowking in rain may seem a little weak, but overall a Surf in Rain coming off a Specs and a solid SAtk stat is very strong, and nothing likes switching into that. Even Ferrothorn, a common switch to Slowking, takes a penalty from a predicted Fire Blast, which 2HKOs and OHKOs most variants, even in Rain. Toxicroak works pretty well with Slowking, and because of that they form a solid offensive and defensive synergy duo. Kyurem is a very underatted threat and with Pressure and Toxic Spikes you can out stall many of its usual counters, especially against stall teams. The rest of the team Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Politoed are there for obvious reasons. Politoed sets up Rain, Ferrothorn provides synergy, and Tentacruel spins. Tentacruel runs Toxic Spikes because of how common and useful it is lately, and with Kyurem as a partner they make a potent core. Toxic Spikes makes Kyurem amazing under Sub, outstalling most counters.



Code:
Slowking @ Choice Specs
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Sassy Nature
- Spikes
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 216 SAtk / 240 Spd
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch

Politoed @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 244 Spd / 252 SAtk / 12 HP
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Encore
- Hypnosis
- Ice Beam

Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
 
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most people were sticking slowking + ferro on rain because they are both good on rain, but i wanted to try something a little different. both of those pokemon lend themselves VERY well to bulky spikestacking offense!

basically, otr slowking is a monster when equipped with actual support. his main counters are lati twins, which are taken care of very nicely by tyranitar. dual hazard ferrothorn is a nice temporary stopgap to big threats to the team, actually using them to set up hazards. latios, rotomw, thundurus-t, scarf jirachi, etc. the hazard support is greatly appreciated by slowking, too, since its often just outside the KO range on a lot of threats. jellicent, as always, pairs great with ferrothorn and really messes up a lot of stall teams with taunt + wow + speed. a great function of jellicent is that it lures in rotom-w like nothing else and then plants a big old burn on it, pretty much rendering it useless when countering slowking. night shade also takes out a full third of its health if max hp, so it gets worn down REALLY quickly.

then, smack down landorus also helps get free damage on rotom; smack down + rocks will bring it down a full third of its health and force it to switch, at which point you can u-turn for free damage and a free switch in. smack down landorus is another 'mon that trashes stall which always helps. starmie is there as another lure to rotom-wash with analytic psyshock doing a stupid amount to it, as well as clearing hazards to better help slowking abuse regenerator early game / not losing to spikestack.

Code:
Slowking @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Psyshock
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Trick Room

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 192 Spd / 188 Atk / 36 SAtk / 92 Def
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Smack Down
- U-turn

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Spd / 148 Def
Bold Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade
- Recover
 
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most people were sticking slowking + ferro on rain because they are both good on rain, but i wanted to try something a little different. both of those pokemon lend themselves VERY well to bulky spikestacking offense!

basically, otr slowking is a monster when equipped with actual support. his main counters are lati twins, which are taken care of very nicely by tyranitar. dual hazard ferrothorn is a nice temporary stopgap to big threats to the team, actually using them to set up hazards. latios, rotomw, thundurus-t, scarf jirachi, etc. the hazard support is greatly appreciated by slowking, too, since its often just outside the KO range on a lot of threats. jellicent, as always, pairs great with ferrothorn and really messes up a lot of stall teams with taunt + wow + speed. a great function of jellicent is that it lures in rotom-w like nothing else and then plants a big old burn on it, pretty much rendering it useless when countering slowking. night shade also takes out a full third of its health if max hp, so it gets worn down REALLY quickly.

then, smack down landorus also helps get free damage on rotom; smack down + rocks will bring it down a full third of its health and force it to switch, at which point you can u-turn for free damage and a free switch in. smack down landorus is another 'mon that trashes stall which always helps. starmie is there as another lure to rotom-wash with analytic psyshock doing a stupid amount to it, as well as clearing hazards to better help slowking abuse regenerator early game / not losing to spikestack.

Code:
Slowking @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Psyshock
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Trick Room

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 192 Spd / 188 Atk / 36 SAtk / 92 Def
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Smack Down
- U-turn

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Spd / 148 Def
Bold Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade
- Recover

You know my team was SpikeStacking with Sand, too, right?

Anyway, I like this team a lot, but I would use Hex > Night Shade because more often than not it will do more damage, particularly against burned opponents. It is good to keep Smack Down on Landorus-T because otherwise Rotom-W would be much more of an issue to this team. That said, you have nothing to reliably absorb burns, and Jellicent won't outspeed Rotom-W to Taunt it anyway.
 
yeah, explorer, i said most teams, not all, were abusing rain.

also, hex is too unreliable and is coming off of jellicent's fairly weak special attack stat. especially if the opponent isn't statused, it can be a waste of a move for jellicent, and it also fails to do any noticeable damage vs skarmory, scizor, tyranitar, (basically all the ghost resists). night shade is also really nice for stripping rotom-w of a full third of its HP.

the usual game plan with burns is to absorb it with ferrothorn and start spikestacking. rotomw also has a very time getting hard for free, because the point of the team is that while rotom-w can actually wall most of the team members, if it actually tries to do so it'll end up losing most of its health, thus opening up a sweep for slowking.
 
This team looks like what I'd have done in terms of pattern. However, Starmie+Jellicent+Slowking seems extra super redundant so I'm sure it is possible to improve it somehow.
Maybe something like Gengar > Jelli, + Dragon > Mie.
 
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Hello, once again : thank everyone for the participation, it is cool to seethat the activity is keeping up even with a less simple core. This thread requires a good amount of time since you have to build a whole team !

But now it's time to reward your efforts !
Here are the teams, vote for the one you find the best, the most viable, the most creative, the most ... Whatever suits you !

Votes are closed in 3 days !



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Scotti (1)
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Maestro72
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Scarfwynaut (4)
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Vyomov (1)
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Gsumbreon
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Explorer
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PDC (8)
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Bad Ass (10)

PS : I'll keep the voting updated on this very post, like I did past turn.
 
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Vyomov

In my opinion you have some work to do in terms of teambuilding, but this one is pretty fine, you'd simply need to tweak some sets to turn it into something really good. This one is also so much better than the team you posted last round that you deserve some attention.
 
Scotti- he built the only team without Politoed or Tyranitar, and synergy is also pretty good.

For those of you who criticized me for using Cacturne, I'm considering Golurk and maybe Terrakion as replacements.
 
Scotti- he built the only team without Politoed or Tyranitar, and synergy is also pretty good.

For those of you who criticized me for using Cacturne, I'm considering Golurk and maybe Terrakion as replacements.

That's a funny fact, it reminds me that I wanted to do some statistics on the teams to see how the users react to the cores :P
 
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