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All Gens Past Gens Research Thread

Yesterday, my friend Etchy posted a video on his Twitter showing U-Turn causing a flinch when a Pokemon with the item King's Rock is switched in (as an aside, follow him if you're interested in research into old gens, his YouTube channel is amazing).

This seems to line up with the research done here showing that berries on the user's side do not activate before the switch - do any other items also activate after the switch? As shown in the video, Life Orb damage happens before the switch - what about other items? One that immediately comes to mind to test is Shell Bell, but are there any others that could be tested? Are there any user abilities that could possibly be tested as well? (I think the answer to this one is no, Stench doesn't flinch in Gen 4 and Poison Touch doesn't exist yet, but I could be missing something)

I sadly am unable to test these myself until much later this week, but if anyone else wants to check Shell Bell's timing themselves or let me know if there are any other items/abilities that should be tested as well, that would be really appreciated!
 
Cazenovia said:
Yesterday, my friend Etchy posted a video on his Twitter showing U-Turn causing a flinch when a Pokemon with the item King's Rock is switched in (as an aside, follow him if you're interested in research into old gens, his YouTube channel is amazing).

This seems to line up with the research done here showing that berries on the user's side do not activate before the switch - do any other items also activate after the switch? As shown in the video, Life Orb damage happens before the switch - what about other items? One that immediately comes to mind to test is Shell Bell, but are there any others that could be tested? Are there any user abilities that could possibly be tested as well? (I think the answer to this one is no, Stench doesn't flinch in Gen 4 and Poison Touch doesn't exist yet, but I could be missing something)

I sadly am unable to test these myself until much later this week, but if anyone else wants to check Shell Bell's timing themselves or let me know if there are any other items/abilities that should be tested as well, that would be really appreciated!
Click to expand...
Shell Bell activates before the switch.
 
Hey, so I just discovered that there's an implementation issue with Micle Berry. In PS, Micle Berry only activates at the end of the turn, when it should activate as soon as the user's HP gets low, just like other berries.

Now I'm wondering how long the effect stays active. Does it go away if the user gets paralyzed? Does it go away if the user uses a self-targeting move? Does it expire right after the end of the turn?

I guess these are all kind of hard to answer since they depend a lot on RNG.
 
Hydrametr0nice said:
Marty said that weather related abilities activate before Spikes in Gen 3
Click to expand...
I explicitly said the opposite, you could just scroll up five months to re-read the conversation?
https://discord.com/channels/630837856075513856/630845310033330206/1380957562123452437

truth.png
 
(HGSS) (B2W2) Does anybody know if Meloetta transforms when Relic Song hits a substitute? It doesn't on the sim - however, I cannot find any further information supporting or objecting to this interaction.

EDIT: Fixed generation
 
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(FOREWARD: I wrote all this before Hydrametr0nice kindly suggested that I test other moves as well and found that this glitch not only effects Snatch, but also Counter, Mirror Coat, and Magic Coat)

While doing some testing regarding a bug with how PS! handles Snatch in Gen 4, I accidentally stumbled upon a (presumably undiscovered) glitch within the Gen 4 games involving Snatch and the ability Pressure. In this glitch, if a Pokemon uses Snatch on a Pokemon with the ability Pressure who uses a Snatchable move (with some exceptions, see below), Snatch will lose 2 PP, which is the intended behaviour of the move. However, if the Pokemon that uses Snatch switches out the very next turn, Snatch will regain one of its PP points, effectively negating the effect of Pressure.


In this video you can see how the Snatch PP starts at 10, is 8 after Snatch is used, but once the Snatcher is switched out and back in, the PP has changed to 9. This is not just a visual bug either - if Snatch has 2 PP left and is used on a Pressure Pokemon is will drop to 0 PP and become unusable, however once switched out Snatch will have 1 PP and can be used again (cart footage). This glitch cannot be used to gain infinite PP on Snatch as it does not work if Snatch only has 1 PP left (cart footage). The glitch only occurs if the Snatcher manually switches out and does not occur if the Snatcher faints or U-turns.

For some reason, I have found that this glitch occurs for all but seven moves in Gen 4. Below is a list of moves I've tested and whether or not the glitch occurs with the move (cart footage).

Works with the glitch:
Most simple stat boosting moves (Cosmic Power, Growth, Harden, etc.)
Recovery moves (Morning Sun, Recover, Rest, Soft-Boiled, Swallow, etc.)
Acupressure
Aromatherapy
Light Screen/Reflect
Mist
Psych Up
Refresh
Safeguard
Tailwind

Does not work with the glitch:
Belly Drum
Camouflage
Charge
Focus Energy
Ingrain
Stockpile
Substitute
 
Related to Cazenovia's post above (but not to the glitch), I'm using this table to gather information about Pressure PP deduction. Any help with testing is appreciated.

Note: "Per Pressure foe" means per Pokémon with Pressure on the opponent's side. "Per Pressure target" means per target Pokémon that has Pressure. For example, Leer would have 2 targets, Tackle would have 1 target, and Calm Mind would have 0 targets. These targets are related to the called move.

Gen 3
original move fails		Gen 3
original move succeeds		Gen 4
original move fails		Gen 4
original move succeeds		Gen 5Gen 7 or 9
Counter
Mirror Coat		0+1 per Pressure target (always only one target)0+1 per Pressure target (always only one target)0+1 per Pressure target (always only one target)
Gen 9
Magic Coat0+1 (per Pressure foe or per target???)0+1 (per Pressure foe or per target???)00
Gen 9
Snatch0+1 if the snatched target has Pressure0+1 if the snatched target has Pressure+1 per Pressure foe even if it failsGen 7
Imprison+1 per Pressure foe+1 per Pressure foe+1 per Pressure foe+1 per Pressure foe+1 per Pressure foe (never fails)Gen 9
Assist(Presumably 0)+1 per Pressure target(Presumably 0)0+1 per Pressure targetGen 7
Copycat--(Presumably 0)0+1 per Pressure targetGen 9
Metronome(Presumably 0)+1 per Pressure target(Presumably 0)0+1 per Pressure targetGen 9
Sleep Talk+1 (per Pressure foe??? do allies with Pressure contribute???)+1 (per Pressure foe??? do allies with Pressure contribute???)(Presumably 0)0+1 per Pressure targetGen 9
Mirror Move0+1 (per Pressure foe or per target???)00+1 (original target* and per Pressure target???)Gen 7
Me First--+1 (original target* and per Pressure target???)+1 original target+1 (original target* and per Pressure target???)Gen 7
*Me First and (Gen 5+) Mirror Move deduct 1 extra PP if they are used against a Pokémon with Pressure and fail. However, when I used Mirror Move on my ally and copied Surf, the opponent's Pressure Pokémon still caused Mirror Move to lose an extra PP. Now I'm inclined to assume that both the original target and any other target can deduct PP from Mirror Move and Me First, but you can't deduct PP twice from the same Pressure Pokémon.
 
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The order of ability activation in Generation 3 and 4 works quite differently to modern generations. Ability activation order is determined by a pre-set order of priority and not entirely by Speed. This is the case for only certain abilities in Gens 5+ (such as Tera Shift and Neutralizing Gas) but that is beyond the scope of my tests.

As this mechanic is currently not properly implemented on Showdown for generation 3 or 4, my aim is to test and document the mechanics and report bugs when relevant. In all of these tests I have used the exact Speed stat of a Pokemon as its nickname for clarity.

Generation 4
Test 1: Establish that Weather activates before Intimidate, and that order of activation of abilities in the same ‘category’ is determined by Speed. Show that Intimidate targets the faster opponent first and then the second fastest. Show that White Herb activates after all abilities.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4vgc2010-2422113252-46ug7myix1wdjpyx1wjsfwemgbn3cd1pw?p2
  • On Cartridge: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre (fastest Pokemon) activates Drizzle first, then Groudon (slower than Kyogre) activates Drought, then Gyarados (faster than Arcanine) activates Intimidate, Gyarados’ Intimidate drops the attack of Kyogre and then Groudon (in order of Speed), then Arcanine activates Intimidate and finally Groudon’s White Herb activates and resets Attack to +0.
  • On Showdown: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre (fastest Pokemon) activates Drizzle first, then Gyarados, then Groudon, then Arcanine, the Intimidate drops are not in order of Speed and the White Herb activates before the second Intimidate activation, which results in Groudon’s attack ending at -1.
The above test establishes that in Generation 4, ability activation order is not determined solely by Speed or positioning, but rather a pre-set order of priority. I will use the property of transitivity (i.e. if A>B and B>C, then A>C) to establish the complete order of ability activation.

Test 2: Establish the complete order of ability activation.
Priority of ability activation (Generation 4):
  • Trace
  • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, Snow Warning)
  • Intimidate
  • Download
  • Anticipation
  • Forewarn
  • Frisk
  • Slow Start
  • Mold Breaker
  • Pressure
  • *Immunity (I was not able to test this.)
  • Flower Gift
After all abilities activate, items such as White Herb or berries will activate.

Generation 3
Test 1: Establish that Weather activates, then Intimidate, then Trace, and that order of activation of abilities in the same ‘category’ is determined by Speed. Show that Intimidate targets based on the position and not the Speed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3doublesou-2528815842-go603vmdsnp81it7an9jc1atlsgcau8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3doublesou-2528816453-vsfr8qr7el0aj0hd3kqhvedhg2dcs4xpw
  • Game 1
    • On Cartridge: All Pokemon are sent out, Groudon activates Drought first, then Kyogre (slower than Groudon) activates Drizzle, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack and finally Gardevoir activates Trace which traces Intimidate, doing nothing.
    • On Showdown: All Pokemon are sent out, Gardevoir (fastest Pokemon) activates Trace which traces Intimidate doing nothing, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack, then Groudon activates Drought and finally Kyogre (slower than Groudon) activates Drizzle.
  • Game 2
    • On Cartridge: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre activates Drizzle first, then Groudon (slower than Kyogre) activates Drought, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack and finally Gardevoir activates Trace which traces Drought, doing nothing.
    • On Showdown: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre (fastest Pokemon) activates Drizzle, then Gardevoir activates Trace which traces Intimidate doing nothing, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack and finally Groudon activates Drought.
Priority of ability activation (Generation 3):
  • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream)
  • Intimidate
  • Trace
After all abilities activate, items such as White Herb or berries will activate.

To summarise the results of these tests, ability activation is in a pre-set order. Which in Generation 3 is Weather, Intimidate, then Trace. In Generation 4 it is Trace, Weather, Intimidate, Download, Anticipation, Forewarn, Frisk, Slow Start, Mold Breaker, Pressure , Immunity, then Flower Gift. If two Pokemon have the same ability (or both have any weather setting ability) then the activation in both Generation 3 and 4 is in speed order.

With the current implementation on Showdown, abilities activate only in order of speed which is not accurate to cartridge.

These tests additionally demonstrated a separate mechanics quirk in Generation 4. Being that Intimidate drops the attack of the faster opposing Pokemon, and then the slower Pokemon. This reveals their speed order which can be crucial information. It is also currently not implemented correctly on Showdown.
 
oopsgtg said:
The order of ability activation in Generation 3 and 4 works quite differently to modern generations. Ability activation order is determined by a pre-set order of priority and not entirely by Speed. This is the case for only certain abilities in Gens 5+ (such as Tera Shift and Neutralizing Gas) but that is beyond the scope of my tests.

As this mechanic is currently not properly implemented on Showdown for generation 3 or 4, my aim is to test and document the mechanics and report bugs when relevant. In all of these tests I have used the exact Speed stat of a Pokemon as its nickname for clarity.

Generation 4
Test 1: Establish that Weather activates before Intimidate, and that order of activation of abilities in the same ‘category’ is determined by Speed. Show that Intimidate targets the faster opponent first and then the second fastest. Show that White Herb activates after all abilities.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4vgc2010-2422113252-46ug7myix1wdjpyx1wjsfwemgbn3cd1pw?p2
  • On Cartridge: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre (fastest Pokemon) activates Drizzle first, then Groudon (slower than Kyogre) activates Drought, then Gyarados (faster than Arcanine) activates Intimidate, Gyarados’ Intimidate drops the attack of Kyogre and then Groudon (in order of Speed), then Arcanine activates Intimidate and finally Groudon’s White Herb activates and resets Attack to +0.
  • On Showdown: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre (fastest Pokemon) activates Drizzle first, then Gyarados, then Groudon, then Arcanine, the Intimidate drops are not in order of Speed and the White Herb activates before the second Intimidate activation, which results in Groudon’s attack ending at -1.
The above test establishes that in Generation 4, ability activation order is not determined solely by Speed or positioning, but rather a pre-set order of priority. I will use the property of transitivity (i.e. if A>B and B>C, then A>C) to establish the complete order of ability activation.

Test 2: Establish the complete order of ability activation.
Priority of ability activation (Generation 4):
  • Trace
  • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, Snow Warning)
  • Intimidate
  • Download
  • Anticipation
  • Forewarn
  • Frisk
  • Slow Start
  • Mold Breaker
  • Pressure
  • *Immunity (I was not able to test this.)
  • Flower Gift
After all abilities activate, items such as White Herb or berries will activate.

Generation 3
Test 1: Establish that Weather activates, then Intimidate, then Trace, and that order of activation of abilities in the same ‘category’ is determined by Speed. Show that Intimidate targets based on the position and not the Speed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3doublesou-2528815842-go603vmdsnp81it7an9jc1atlsgcau8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3doublesou-2528816453-vsfr8qr7el0aj0hd3kqhvedhg2dcs4xpw
  • Game 1
    • On Cartridge: All Pokemon are sent out, Groudon activates Drought first, then Kyogre (slower than Groudon) activates Drizzle, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack and finally Gardevoir activates Trace which traces Intimidate, doing nothing.
    • On Showdown: All Pokemon are sent out, Gardevoir (fastest Pokemon) activates Trace which traces Intimidate doing nothing, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack, then Groudon activates Drought and finally Kyogre (slower than Groudon) activates Drizzle.
  • Game 2
    • On Cartridge: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre activates Drizzle first, then Groudon (slower than Kyogre) activates Drought, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack and finally Gardevoir activates Trace which traces Drought, doing nothing.
    • On Showdown: All Pokemon are sent out, Kyogre (fastest Pokemon) activates Drizzle, then Gardevoir activates Trace which traces Intimidate doing nothing, then Arcanine activates Intimidate which drops Gardevoir’s (Slot 1) Attack and then Kyogre’s (Slot 2) Attack and finally Groudon activates Drought.
Priority of ability activation (Generation 3):
  • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream)
  • Intimidate
  • Trace
After all abilities activate, items such as White Herb or berries will activate.

To summarise the results of these tests, ability activation is in a pre-set order. Which in Generation 3 is Weather, Intimidate, then Trace. In Generation 4 it is Trace, Weather, Intimidate, Download, Anticipation, Forewarn, Frisk, Slow Start, Mold Breaker, Pressure , Immunity, then Flower Gift. If two Pokemon have the same ability (or both have any weather setting ability) then the activation in both Generation 3 and 4 is in speed order.

With the current implementation on Showdown, abilities activate only in order of speed which is not accurate to cartridge.

These tests additionally demonstrated a separate mechanics quirk in Generation 4. Being that Intimidate drops the attack of the faster opposing Pokemon, and then the slower Pokemon. This reveals their speed order which can be crucial information. It is also currently not implemented correctly on Showdown.
Click to expand...

In practice, this is basically the same as Gen 5+, but much more granular, with custom priorities for most abilities (instead of a small number like Tera Shift). Which is weird, because when pyuk implemented those mechanics in Gens 5+ (13 months ago), we explicitly left Gens 1-4 out of it.

Currently on PS, in Gens 5-9, switch-in events (hazards, abilities, item, etc) are sorted into a single large queue. In contrast, in Gens 1-4, all effects (including hazards!) run for the first Pokémon, then the second, then the third, and so on. According to your videos, we should also use the Gen 5-9 logic in the previous gens.

I'm curious about how the abilities you tested would trigger if, instead of switching in on turn 0, they were switching in after the previous Pokémon fainted (e.g. an Explosion that faints all Pokémon on the field).
  • We know that, at least in Gen 3, it would behave differently. Hazards and weather abilities activate right away before the other Pokémon enter the field, while Intimidate and Trace activate after all Pokémon have switched in. But, in this case, do Intimidate and Trace activate in switch order or does Intimidate always activate before Trace?
  • I wasn't curious about Gen 4 in this Explosion case, since I had assumed PS implemented it correctly, but maybe we’re also wrong? Also, in Gen 4, do hazards run before all abilities?

I'm also curious whether, in Gen 3, Forecast behaves like Flower Gift (i.e. only activates after the final weather is set) or whether it keeps activating every time the weather changes (like in later gens). From what I'm seeing in the Emerald decompiled code, the only ability that actually forces Forecast to activate is Cloud Nine.
So my guess is (let's assume it is hailing and Forecast is already in its Snowy form):
  1. Groudon activates Drought -> Kyogre activates Drizzle -> Forecast activates at the end (Rainy form)
  2. Groudon activates Drought -> Golduck activates Cloud Nine -> Forecast deactivates immediately -> Kyogre activates Drizzle
I hate these moments where we have more questions than answers.


https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/pull/11185 Here is my pending PR for the Gen 3 hazards + weather abilities mechanics (them activating before each switch—after multiple Pokémon fainted to Explosion). It includes four links for research and bugs related to this. Based on your findings, I could probably simplify the implementation and fix both gens. I'm guessing it's better to wait until we have all the answers.
 
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Hydrametr0nice said:
In practice, this is basically the same as Gen 5+, but much more granular, with custom priorities for most abilities (instead of a small number like Tera Shift). Which is weird, because when pyuk implemented those mechanics in Gens 5+ (13 months ago), we explicitly left Gens 1-4 out of it.

Currently on PS, in Gens 5-9, switch-in events (hazards, abilities, item, etc) are sorted into a single large queue. In contrast, in Gens 1-4, all effects (including hazards!) run for the first Pokémon, then the second, then the third, and so on. According to your videos, we should also use the Gen 5-9 logic in the previous gens.

I'm curious about how the abilities you tested would trigger if, instead of switching in on turn 0, they were switching in after the previous Pokémon fainted (e.g. an Explosion that faints all Pokémon on the field).
  • We know that, at least in Gen 3, it would behave differently. Hazards and weather abilities activate right away before the other Pokémon enter the field, while Intimidate and Trace activate after all Pokémon have switched in. But, in this case, do Intimidate and Trace activate in switch order or does Intimidate always activate before Trace?
  • I wasn't curious about Gen 4 in this Explosion case, since I had assumed PS implemented it correctly, but maybe we’re also wrong? Also, in Gen 4, do hazards run before all abilities?

I'm also curious whether, in Gen 3, Forecast behaves like Flower Gift (i.e. only activates after the final weather is set) or whether it keeps activating every time the weather changes (like in later gens). From what I'm seeing in the Emerald decompiled code, the only ability that actually forces Forecast to activate is Cloud Nine.
So my guess is (let's assume it is hailing and Forecast is already in its Snowy form):
  1. Groudon activates Drought -> Kyogre activates Drizzle -> Forecast activates at the end (Rainy form)
  2. Groudon activates Drought -> Golduck activates Cloud Nine -> Forecast deactivates immediately -> Kyogre activates Drizzle
I hate these moments where we have more questions than answers.


https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/pull/11185 Here is my pending PR for the Gen 3 hazards + weather abilities mechanics (them activating before each switch—after multiple Pokémon fainted to Explosion). It includes four links for research and bugs related to this. Based on your findings, I could probably simplify the implementation and fix both gens. I'm guessing it's better to wait until we have all the answers.
Click to expand...
You are right that the mechanics and order of operations is different on turn 0, at the beginning of a turn when choosing replacements and if a Pokemon switches in the middle of a turn (either by switching directly, using Baton Pass/U-Turn or Healing Wish/Lunar Dance). For completeness I will consider each of these cases individually.

Emerald Order of Operations
  • All Pokemon are sent out
    • Weather (Drizzle/Drought) - Forecast activates immediately after the weather changes as well as when Castform is sent out if there is already weather on the field
    • Intimidate
    • Trace
    • Items (White Herb, berries etc)
  • Players select all Pokemon to be sent out
  • Pokemon 1 is sent out (based on Port priority, i.e. (if available) P1 Pokemon 1, then P2 Pokemon 1, then P1 Pokemon 2, then P2 Pokemon 2)
    • Spikes
    • Drizzle/Drought
    • Forecast
  • Pokemon 2 is sent out (if applicable)
    • Spikes
    • Drizzle/Drought
    • Forecast
  • …
  • All Pokemon have been sent out
    • Intimidate
    • Trace
    • Items (White Herb, berries etc)
  • Pokemon 1 switches in (based on Port priority, i.e. (if available) P1 Pokemon 1, then P2 Pokemon 1, then P1 Pokemon 2, then P2 Pokemon 2)
    • Spikes
    • Drizzle/Drought
    • Forecast
    • Intimidate
    • Trace
    • Items (White Herb, berries etc)
  • Next action (move or switch)
HeartGold Order of Operations
  • All Pokemon are sent out
  • Abilities Activate
    • Trace
    • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, Snow Warning)
    • Intimidate
    • Download
    • Anticipation
    • Forewarn
    • Frisk
    • Slow Start
    • Mold Breaker
    • Pressure
    • Immunity
    • Form Change (Flower Gift, Forecast)
  • Items activate (White Herb, berries etc)
  • Each Player selects one Pokemon to be sent out
  • Pokemon 1 is sent out by Player 1
    • Toxic Spikes
    • Spikes
    • Stealth Rock
    • Healing Wish/ Lunar Dance
  • Pokemon 1 is sent out by Player 2
    • Toxic Spikes
    • Spikes
    • Stealth Rock
    • Healing Wish/ Lunar Dance
  • (If applicable) Each Player selects one Pokemon to be sent out (after Pokemon 1 sent out on field)
  • Pokemon 2 is sent out by Player 1* (If Player 2 Pokemon 1 was KOed by Hazards, then the replacement for Player 2 Pokemon 1 is sent out first)
    • Toxic Spikes
    • Spikes
    • Stealth Rock
    • Healing Wish/ Lunar Dance
  • Pokemon 1 is sent out by Player 2
    • Toxic Spikes
    • Spikes
    • Stealth Rock
    • Healing Wish/ Lunar Dance
  • …
  • All Pokemon have been sent out
  • Abilities Activate
    • Trace
    • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, Snow Warning)
    • Intimidate
    • Download
    • Anticipation
    • Forewarn
    • Frisk
    • Slow Start
    • Mold Breaker
    • Pressure
    • Immunity
    • Form Change (Flower Gift, Forecast)
  • Items activate (White Herb, berries etc)
  • Fastest Pokemon attempting switch out will switch first
  • Pokemon 1 switches in
    • Toxic Spikes
    • Spikes
    • Stealth Rock
    • Healing Wish/ Lunar Dance
  • Abilities Activate
    • Trace
    • Weather (Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, Snow Warning)
    • Intimidate
    • Download
    • Anticipation
    • Forewarn
    • Frisk
    • Slow Start
    • Mold Breaker
    • Pressure
    • Immunity
    • Form Change (Flower Gift, Forecast)
  • Items activate (White Herb, berries etc)
  • Next action (move or switch)
To directly answer your questions:
  • In Generation 3, Intimidate and Trace will activate in switch order if switched in mid turn, but on turn 0 or at the beginning of a turn, Intimidate will activate first always.
  • There are several issues with the current implementation of beginning of turn switches in Generation 4 on Showdown. As you mentioned, hazards as well as Healing Wish and Lunar Dance should activate before any abilities, also Pokemon should be sent out one at a time with the opportunity to choose the next with the information of what was sent out by the opponent first and the issue with ability order and items activating after abilities still persists of course.
  • In Generation 3 Forecast will activate immediately the weather changes, and when Castform is sent out, I believe that Cloud Nine and Air Lock do not need to be 'activated' in the same way that Drizzle/Drought do, instead those abilities are just always active while Golduck/Rayquaza respectively are on the field. In Generation 4, Forecast works the same way as Flower Gift, I forgot to mention it before apologies.
 
First of all, thank you for all the work. I'll look into implementing everything tomorrow.
Related to this:
oopsgtg said:
In Generation 3 Forecast will activate immediately the weather changes, and when Castform is sent out, I believe that Cloud Nine and Air Lock do not need to be 'activated' in the same way that Drizzle/Drought do, instead those abilities are just always active while Golduck/Rayquaza respectively are on the field.
Click to expand...
it doesn't really answer my question, because abilities activate right after each switch. I assume it is only applicable on turn 0.
If Castform and three weather Pokémon start the battle on turn 0, does Forecast activate with each weather change or does it only activate at the end of all weather effects? I'm guessing this could also be tested in Gen 4 (in Gen 4, it shouldn't depend on the turn).

Edit: I implemented everything shown so far in this old PR, which already had the Gen 3 weather mechanics https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/pull/11185

Edit2: I also created another PR to allow players to replicate Port Switch Priority for Gens 1-4 https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/pull/11262
In Gen 1, each player sees their own Pokémon switch first, but that behavior is too much of a headache to implement on PS.
 
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If the weather is sunny, and a Pokemon with mold breaker uses whirlwind or roar and forces in a Cherrim with flower gift, would the flower gift change the user's form or boost stats? Or would both of the effects get ignored? Is the answer different for different generations?
 
sumwun said:
If the weather is sunny, and a Pokemon with mold breaker uses whirlwind or roar and forces in a Cherrim with flower gift, would the flower gift change the user's form or boost stats? Or would both of the effects get ignored?
Click to expand...
Only the form transformation is ignored. Flower Gift would re-activate after a weather effect is re-triggered.

sumwun said:
Is the answer different for different generations?
Click to expand...
It is the same in Gens 5 and 8.

Funnily enough, I just discovered that in Gen 4, Cherrim's form change is not tied to the Flower Gift ability. It's tied to the species itself. Only the stat boost is activated by Flower Gift. Strangely, Castform's form transformation is tied to Forecast.
 
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Hydrametr0nice said:
Funnily enough, I just discovered that in Gen 4, Cherrim's form change is not tied to the Flower Gift ability. It's tied to the species itself. Only the stat boost is activated by Flower Gift. Strangely, Castform's form transformation is tied to Forecast.
Click to expand...
Does this mean mold breaker can't stop Cherrim from changing form in gen 4?
 
Hydrametr0nice said:
First of all, thank you for all the work. I'll look into implementing everything tomorrow.
Related to this:

it doesn't really answer my question, because abilities activate right after each switch. I assume it is only applicable on turn 0.
If Castform and three weather Pokémon start the battle on turn 0, does Forecast activate with each weather change or does it only activate at the end of all weather effects? I'm guessing this could also be tested in Gen 4 (in Gen 4, it shouldn't depend on the turn).

Edit: I implemented everything shown so far in this old PR, which already had the Gen 3 weather mechanics https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/pull/11185

Edit2: I also created another PR to allow players to replicate Port Switch Priority for Gens 1-4 https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/pull/11262
In Gen 1, each player sees their own Pokémon switch first, but that behavior is too much of a headache to implement on PS.
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In Generation 3, Forecast will activate after each time the weather changes on Turn 0. However, before Forecast checks the active weather, it will check if Air Lock/Cloud Nine are present and if they are then Castform never changes form. If a Pokemon with Air Lock/Cloud Nine switches out, then Castform will only activate Forecast after Drizzle/Drought have activated (if the replacement has either ability).

At the beginning of a turn to replace a fainted Pokemon, if there is weather active already, Castform will activate Forecast after Spikes and before the next Pokemon switches in.

Emerald Tests

In Generation 4, Forecast/Flower Gift will activate after all abilities on Turn 0 or at the beginning of a turn when replacing fainted Pokemon. Forecast/Flower Gift activates after Spikes and before the next Pokemon switches mid turn (whether if it is Castform/Cherrim switching in, or a Pokemon with a weather ability or Air Lock/Cloud Nine or nothing changes, it will check the ability and activate if something changed).

Thank you for all your work, I am very glad that progress is being made with making Gen 3/4 doubles mechanics closer to cart accuracy on Showdown.
 
I will update my PR so Cloud Nine is the first ability to activate.

oopsgtg said:
In Generation 4, Forecast/Flower Gift will activate after all abilities on Turn 0 or at the beginning of a turn when replacing fainted Pokemon. Forecast/Flower Gift activates after Spikes and before the next Pokemon switches mid turn (whether if it is Castform/Cherrim switching in, or a Pokemon with a weather ability or Air Lock/Cloud Nine or nothing changes, it will check the ability and activate if something changed).
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Just to confirm: in Gen 4, Cloud Nine also activates before Weather abilities, right? You can just react with a like if the answer is yes.

oopsgtg said:
Thank you for all your work, I am very glad that progress is being made with making Gen 3/4 doubles mechanics closer to cart accuracy on Showdown.
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:psyglad:
 
Hydrametr0nice said:
I will update my PR so Cloud Nine is the first ability to activate.


Just to confirm: in Gen 4, Cloud Nine also activates before Weather abilities, right? You can just react with a like if the answer is yes.


:psyglad:
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Well it isn't really accurate to state they 'activate' before Weather abilities, there is no message (unlike all the other abilities I mentioned) and to my understanding they are not present in the loop of ability checks on switch in. Rather, Air Lock and Cloud Nine are just passively disabling the effects of weather whilst they are on the field. So in that sense they are 'before' weather but the check for Air Lock/Cloud Nine is just whenever weather effects the battle.
 
oopsgtg said:
Well it isn't really accurate to state they 'activate' before Weather abilities, there is no message (unlike all the other abilities I mentioned) and to my understanding they are not present in the loop of ability checks on switch in. Rather, Air Lock and Cloud Nine are just passively disabling the effects of weather whilst they are on the field. So in that sense they are 'before' weather but the check for Air Lock/Cloud Nine is just whenever weather effects the battle.
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Sorry, coding details.

On PS, in Gens 5+, Cloud Nine implements an activation event to start the effect. In Gens 3 and 4, we remove the activation message, but keep the activation flag. To simulate cartridge behavior, we simply run Cloud Nine as the ability with the most priority (a silent event). We do these kind of things to re-utilize code and implement all generations on top of each other.

For the sake of it, I confirmed that Cloud Nine can activate after Drought in Gen 5.
 
Hey, I have a Gen 4 question that requires two consoles. It's a Doubles battle. Player 1 has the fastest Pokémon (let's say Deoxys and Infernape), and Player 2 has the third fastest (let's say Empoleon).
  • Turn 1: Empoleon uses Pursuit. The rest of the Pokémon do nothing (Splash or Sleep Talk).
  • Turn 2: Empoleon selects a move other than Pursuit. Deoxys uses Encore on Empoleon, which forces it to use Pursuit. Infernape uses U-turn and attempts to switch out. Does the Encored Pursuit activate?
From what I'm seeing in the decompiled code, it seems like Pursuit could activate. I'd also like to test this in Gen 7, since I'd expect it to behave like Pokémon Showdown (not activate).

Edit: edited the post, the speed order was wrong.

Edit2: there is another Encore + Pursuit interaction that has a weird result on Pokémon Showdown.
  • Turn 1: Empoleon uses Tackle. The rest of the Pokémon do nothing (Splash or Sleep Talk).
  • Turn 2: Empoleon selects Pursuit. Deoxys uses Encore on Empoleon, which forces it to use Tackle. Infernape uses U-turn and attempts to switch out. Does the Pursuit activate, making Empoleon use Tackle on Infernape before it switches out?
On PS!, Pursuit would activate, and Empoleon would use Tackle on Infernape.
 
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Hydrametr0nice said:
  • Turn 1: Empoleon uses Pursuit. The rest of the Pokémon do nothing (Splash or Sleep Talk).
  • Turn 2: Empoleon selects a move other than Pursuit. Deoxys uses Encore on Empoleon, which forces it to use Pursuit. Infernape uses U-turn and attempts to switch out. Does the Encored Pursuit activate?
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In Gen 4, the Encored Pursuit will activate. In Gen 7, the Encored Pursuit does not activate.
Hydrametr0nice said:
  • Turn 1: Empoleon uses Tackle. The rest of the Pokémon do nothing (Splash or Sleep Talk).
  • Turn 2: Empoleon selects Pursuit. Deoxys uses Encore on Empoleon, which forces it to use Tackle. Infernape uses U-turn and attempts to switch out. Does the Pursuit activate, making Empoleon use Tackle on Infernape before it switches out?
Click to expand...
In neither Gen 4 nor Gen 7 is Empoleon able to use Tackle on Infernape before it switches out.
 
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