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Perhaps it is time you all got over your "counter" mentality.
- Thread starter Tangerine
- Start date
If you admit you don't play, then why do you even bother? Statments like the above show you're out-of-touch with how actual OU battles work.
I mean to start with, your claim that anything well-played cannot be stopped is just flat-out wrong. Standard Lucario is always walled by Gliscor no matter how well-played it is. A well-played Deoxys-E (the standard offensive spread) is always walled by Bronzong. A well-played Gyarados won't get through Porygon2, etc etc etc. A well-played Garchomp, on the other hand - which isn't at all hard to do, since most of OU is forced to run the moment he enters the field - will kill something before he gets killed. If you honestly think any of the other Pokemon you mentioned come anywhere close to Garchomp then you simply don't get it.
Looking at your second paragraph: You seem to be confusing "Always gets a kill" with "Unbeatable", Garchomp always killing something doesn't mean every battle has to end in a draw lol; Let's hope my Garchomp doesn't choose to attack the turn you switch in ScarfChomp!; I don't care how intelligent your use of Skarmory is when it's taking 48%-57% from Garchomp's boosted Fire Fangs; I wouldn't call switching Garchomp into HP Ice "playing him well", would you?; lol relying on random Burns and Crits to deal with the metagame's biggest threat; Yes lots of stuff happens every match, but relying on something lucky to happen on those particular two-to-three turns it takes for Garchomp to have killed something is hardly a case for Garchomp not being overpowered.
Seriously, play the game before commenting on Garchomp.
umbarsc said:
What are you even talking about? Gengar can't switch in on Garchomp without getting itself killed unless Garchomp has already lost its Yache. I'm hardly "assuming" anything, Gengar really is a poor switch-in to Garchomp.
I'm not sure how these two sentences even relate or what point you're trying to make with them, so whatever.
Anyway moving onto OP Part 2:
Tangerine said:
I don't think that's it, though. People aren't worried so much that they can't counter Garchomp, they're worried that they can't actually do a damn thing to stop it until something has died. This obviously entails the fact it has no counters, but it definitely goes a bit further than that: People don't like that their only option against Garchomp is to "play around it", and that "playing around it" pretty much always involves choosing something to sacrifice. Every other OU threat in the game can be played around to the extent where the threat is neutralized, but Garchomp is going to tear something to shreds no matter what.
I think theKooch actually brings up a valid point: Perhaps the title of this thread should not be "You should all", but rather "We should all". After all, countering is a strategy Smogon endorses all over the place and people (especially newer players) can hardly be blamed for putting more emphasis on countering major threats than on building a solid, adaptable team that can work around problems and function even when up against something it isn't specifically built to handle.
I think to an extent some pokemon force this mentality.
The introduction of choice scarf reduces this, but still, some pokemon need counters. And some of them need dedicated counters.
Ok, here is how stopping sweepers work. Sweepers, ideally will come in on a switch or after a KO. If that is not possible they may come in on a resisted hit, or a low damage attack, and sometimes they will come in on a move that 2hkos them. If they come in on a move that ohkos them, then that doesnt really count as coming in.
Ok so the sweeper comes in. If at this point it is faster than all of your pokemon, and able to OHKO them, then you lose. This is of course unacceptable. Also unlikely. But, if this is the case, then if the pokemon in question is used with any real regularity, then you probably are going to have to add a counter to it.
What is more likely, is that once this pokemon comes in, but you cant finish it off with your next attack (or prevent it sweeping in some other way, eg status, psuedohazing). This is when sweepers will be aiming to switch in, so this is expected. The sweeper will want to use a set up move (but may choose not to depending on the circumstances), such as Swords Dance, or whatever, as you either switch, or damage it a bit in order to KO it with some other pokemon.
Again, if after setting up it is faster than all your pokemon and OHKOs them, then you lose. This is basically how sweepers work. If you have a faster pokemon that can KO, then you have to either predict correctly, or sacrifice a pokemon. If you have a pokemon that will not be KOed after the set up, and can prevent the sweep, then you can just switch to it (assuming the set up is Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, maybe you have to sacrifice).
This, in the general case a least, is countering a pokemon. I mean, sometimes there are other options. Switching around with intimidaters and stuff (though stealth rock really broke this one).
So essentially, in this way, the faster a pokemon is, the smaller the number of revenge kill options. The more damage a pokemon deals, the smaller the number of counter options. Also the bulkier a pokemon is, the better the likelihood it will be able to set up in the first place.
So, as pokemon get faster and more damaging, the number of pokemon that can actually stop them decreases. If they are bulkier, the importance of having those pokemon increases. Essentially, you get to the point that you just have to have one of these pokemon on your team, or your team will lose pretty much every time you see one of these pokes. I think I mentioned not letting things set up, but deleted it. Most teams will need to do that as well..
I think I am kinda rambling. What I am trying to say, is that while you dont need to counter everything to win battles, you do need to counter some things. And some of these things are going to be countered by default by a lot of teams, but, you have to make sure your team is one of them.
This isnt a case of A or B, you can take a little bit of both.
Have a nice day.
The introduction of choice scarf reduces this, but still, some pokemon need counters. And some of them need dedicated counters.
Ok, here is how stopping sweepers work. Sweepers, ideally will come in on a switch or after a KO. If that is not possible they may come in on a resisted hit, or a low damage attack, and sometimes they will come in on a move that 2hkos them. If they come in on a move that ohkos them, then that doesnt really count as coming in.
Ok so the sweeper comes in. If at this point it is faster than all of your pokemon, and able to OHKO them, then you lose. This is of course unacceptable. Also unlikely. But, if this is the case, then if the pokemon in question is used with any real regularity, then you probably are going to have to add a counter to it.
What is more likely, is that once this pokemon comes in, but you cant finish it off with your next attack (or prevent it sweeping in some other way, eg status, psuedohazing). This is when sweepers will be aiming to switch in, so this is expected. The sweeper will want to use a set up move (but may choose not to depending on the circumstances), such as Swords Dance, or whatever, as you either switch, or damage it a bit in order to KO it with some other pokemon.
Again, if after setting up it is faster than all your pokemon and OHKOs them, then you lose. This is basically how sweepers work. If you have a faster pokemon that can KO, then you have to either predict correctly, or sacrifice a pokemon. If you have a pokemon that will not be KOed after the set up, and can prevent the sweep, then you can just switch to it (assuming the set up is Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, maybe you have to sacrifice).
This, in the general case a least, is countering a pokemon. I mean, sometimes there are other options. Switching around with intimidaters and stuff (though stealth rock really broke this one).
So essentially, in this way, the faster a pokemon is, the smaller the number of revenge kill options. The more damage a pokemon deals, the smaller the number of counter options. Also the bulkier a pokemon is, the better the likelihood it will be able to set up in the first place.
So, as pokemon get faster and more damaging, the number of pokemon that can actually stop them decreases. If they are bulkier, the importance of having those pokemon increases. Essentially, you get to the point that you just have to have one of these pokemon on your team, or your team will lose pretty much every time you see one of these pokes. I think I mentioned not letting things set up, but deleted it. Most teams will need to do that as well..
I think I am kinda rambling. What I am trying to say, is that while you dont need to counter everything to win battles, you do need to counter some things. And some of these things are going to be countered by default by a lot of teams, but, you have to make sure your team is one of them.
This isnt a case of A or B, you can take a little bit of both.
Have a nice day.
This isn't completely correct. Even if SD Flame Orb is rare, it's still a set that Gliscor can't switch into 100% of the time and win... 100% would imply that the Gliscor you're describing could switch into a Guts activated Choice Band Facade, which it can't (I don't even think the very standard slow Gliscor can do that). I know this isn't the point, but your statement is simply untrue. Slow Gliscor is also always beaten by SD Flame Orb Facade.
One minor note: Why do people assume that every time Garchomp switches in, it's taken no prior damage? Why do people assume it's immune to all non-Ice attacks? Why do people assume Garchomp is guaranteed a KO? Against stupid opponents, I've many times not allowed Garchomp a KO, and smart opponents can "guarantee" a KO on me with more than Garchomp. I'm not saying he'snot Uber, I'm saying the "guarantee a ko" argument is rleying on the flawed logic of the counter mentality.
itt ad hominem every single time I post shut the fuck up
Switching Gengar into Garchomp is almost as dumb as switching Garchomp into Gengar, wtf are you talking about. But really, don't post if all you got is "lol you don't even play."
Why do people always assume that because its possible to lure Garchomp out into residual damage before it's ready to sweep you, that will always end up happening?
It's not immune; it will just kill you before any non-super effective hit will kill it, unless the player was stupid enough to think Garchomp could be used to prevent other sweepers from setting up...
Because all arguments assume that the players are at equal level, and at equal level the player who can use Garchomp better wins. It would be pointless to assess any other situation.
See what I mean? You can't make an argument on situational things like that because they apply to any pokemon that isn't absolute crap.
I believe the reason these topic keep exploding is because play styles are so subjective, it's easy to just dismiss someone's playing ability based on whether it fits in with your own. And because we can't never come to an objective agreement on how to "play well" (it's impossible), we'll never come to an objective agreement to what is considered "unreasonable" for dealing with any pokemon, not just Garchomp.
Therefore, this fight will have no acceptable end to it, so we should just get back on topic.
Having a pokemon that can still take out certain targets in a "neutral" matchup, you wouldn't necessarily call a counter. However, I find it highly risky given so many things can go wrong in such a matchup. It's just safer to have an "absolute counter" to something, but only when you're trying to achieve balance.
Unfortunately, everyone knows that the best teams are the ones which such an overwhelming offensive/defensive advantage, the opponent needs to think like a king to overcome them. "Perfect counters" are for those stubborn people who want to struggle against the flow of the metagame, pretty much. =/
Balance maybe, but that's fairly subjective. Also this is the point of this post, hard counters turn the game dull and quite boring, very fast. Soft counters are imo the way to go, with a few hard counters for stuff like Garchomp. Basically, the game should reward you for thinking, not plonking something in front of something else and going ''WTF THIS DOESN'T WORK'' when all you're really doing is ''durrr... throw down something and hope it works... durrr...''
Not to be semantic or something, I just wanted to get it out there.
If you recalled my inital scenario, it was Suicune breaking the Yache, then Gengar coming in on the second Earthquake. Even if Garchomp's Yache Berry is intact, Gengar can put it to sleep with Hypnosis.
It should have been completely obvious, but I'll go into more detail for you.
A Pokemon doesn't need to be a counter to switch in against a Pokemon. Sceptile and Gengar are related in that, duh, they aren't Garchomp counters, but even so I can still switch them in and force Garchomp out or kill it. Are offensive teams automatically doomed against anything threatening on the other team? Of course not, they can play with resistances, and they make smart switches that take advantage of free turns, and most importantly.