Perhaps it is time you all got over your "counter" mentality.

[blasphemy1]

Well I don't see how that is comparable seeing as the game's tiers are completely different. If we are battling OU, I can't tell you not to use UUs, can I? The older Trading Cards are pieces of crap compared to the new ones. You shouldn't be banning something that is worse than what is standard, that doesn't make any sense at all.

EDIT: We should probably ban Metagross because ThunderPunch can 2HKO Skarmory while Explosion can kill Hippowdon.

 

[cim]

Any Pokemon is uber or not depending on 4 things: its base stats, movepool, typing and abilities. Nothing else.

Tiering is always subjective unless an objective way is defined. That means that people will always bitch about the tiers unless an objective way is defined.

The solution is easy: don't tier anything and use whatever is available. But nobody wants to do that for some reason!

When I used to play the TCG, we had no bans except those of the old sets. Guess what... people used about the same 7 or 8 decks. Did we complain about that? No.

Well, obviously this breaks into a debate as to what tiers are for. I mean, you do have a point here. Eliminating tiers would get people to stop bitching about them and produce a stable metagame. But I kind of think that's like eliminating STDs by preventing sex entirely or something; except for people that already play with rules like these, be it abstinent people or big fans of the Uber metagame, this isn't what people prefer.

One simple argument for tiers is when you limit the metagame to a certain number of "broken" viable Pokémon, you make a game that's harder to play. Of course, there are several more arguments, such as "Less centralized metagame", "More viable Pokémon (although that's kind of ambiguous, honestly)", and such. I won't bother listing them all, as I can't think of them, but... uh... tiers are there for a reason, I take it.

Well I don't see how that is comparable seeing as the game's tiers are completely different. If we are battling OU, I can't tell you not to use UUs, can I? The older Trading Cards are pieces of crap compared to the new ones. You shouldn't be banning something that is worse than what is standard, that doesn't make any sense at all.

The main argument for this isn't for overpowering reasons, but it makes the metagame smaller and thus easier to deal with, IIRC. Our bans do that as a side-effect of banning Ubers, but that's not the principle reason for it.

 

[Chou Toshio]

We're testing Manaphy and the Lati twins, aren't we? I don't see how my inability to say "Manaphy/Lati@s has no OU counters" works against me when right now even the top players aren't sure they're Uber-worthy anyway...

And I definitely think logical statements have a place in debates such as this, especially above where I attempted to illustrate why being "unreasonable to stop" is a big part of what makes any uber Pokemon uber by stringing together logical arguments. Really, your "Garchomp kicks too much ass" isn't all that much different from my "Garchomp is unreasonable to stop", so I suppose in this instance your gut feeling and my logical reduction ended up in the same place anyway. Not saying that either of us is undeniably right that Garchomp is broken, of course.

This bolded part would be the main point I was trying to get across.

 

[Arcaseven]

EDIT: We should probably ban Metagross because ThunderPunch can 2HKO Skarmory while Explosion can kill Hippowdon.

Summary of my opinion on arguments like these;

Then don't switch Skarmory/Hippowdon into Metagross.

 

[Strants]

I think that saying counters are useless is wrong, because, aren't walls counters to sweepers? Granted, they are more general, but it's the purpose the same; to stop a sweep? And while they may not pose a 1 or 2 hit KO, won't they still win, in the long run? In a blissey vs alakazam match, for example, blissey may not win in one or two turns, but we all know who will win.

Now, I will accept that a team doesn't need counters to every pokemon in the metagame, but one or two, for common and threatening pokemon doesn't seem like a bad idea.

 

[Shelcario]

This is one of those threads pretty much telling people to be creative with their teams instead of creating the same boring teams that you make just to counter something that that specific team has trouble with it. This is just my personal feel for this thread.

 

[SubVersion]

Any Pokemon is uber or not depending on 4 things: its base stats, movepool, typing and abilities. Nothing else.

Err, isn't that exactly I said?

Every Pokemon has base stats, a movepool, a typing and an ability (or two). Yet, the only Pokemon who are banned to ubers are the ones who have those things to such an extent that stopping them in OU isn't possible within reasonable means.

Since there is no arbitrary cut-off point where we say "This Pokemon's stats/movepool/typing/ability are too good, ban it", I can't see how I'm wrong about how well a Pokemon can be handled by OU Pokemon playing a major part in whether they're uber or not.

 

[umbarsc]

Your argument is exactly what Tangerine was arguing against. "isn't possible within reasonable means"... oh, so carrying a bulky Ice Beam Pokemon and a +333 Speed Pokemon is unreasonable is it? Sure, if the Garchomp user plays smart you lose a Pokemon, but how does that argument not apply to SD Facade Heracross, or Pursuit Tyranitar, or Explosion Metagross/Azelf?

 

[SubVersion]

Your argument is exactly what Tangerine was arguing against. "isn't possible within reasonable means"... oh, so carrying a bulky Ice Beam Pokemon and a +333 Speed Pokemon is unreasonable is it? Sure, if the Garchomp user plays smart you lose a Pokemon, but how does that argument not apply to SD Facade Heracross, or Pursuit Tyranitar, or Explosion Metagross/Azelf?

Is this post a joke? Even if you have a bulky Ice Beam Pokemon a +333 Speed Pokemon, one of them still dies to Garchomp. Being forced to sacrifice a Pokemon regardless of how well-prepared your team is for that particular threat is exactly what I'd describe as "unreasonable".

If you're honestly trying to compare Garchomp to any of those example Pokemon, then... wow. Where have you been throughout all the Garchomp debates?

 

[umbarsc]

A smart SD Facade Heracross user will kill a Pokemon. A smart Tyranitar will kill a Pokemon. A smart Dugtrio will kill a Pokemon. A smart Exploder will kill a Pokemon.

The difference here being...?

Also, no, you're not forced to sacrifice a Pokemon. You can play around it you know. Say, go to Suicune as it Swords Dances. Break its Yache with Ice Beam, then go to Gengar to dodge an Earthquake for a kill. It's definitely not a guaranteed kill.

 

[SubVersion]

A smart SD Facade Heracross user will kill a Pokemon. A smart Tyranitar will kill a Pokemon. A smart Dugtrio will kill a Pokemon. A smart Exploder will kill a Pokemon.

You've got be kidding me. Did you really just ignore every Garchomp discussion ever? No matter how smart an SD Facade Heracross (with one of the status Orbs, presumably) user is, he still gets outsped and OHKO'd by Gliscor before it can do anything. The only time a smart Tyranitar user is guaranteed a kill is if it traps something frail/weakened - that can't kill it first - with Pursuit, which is extremely situational. A smart Exploder also kills itself, so... yeah.

Your attempt to justify "playing around it" is ludicrous and suggests to me you haven't bothered keeping up with any of the Garchomp discussions in the past (not that this is a Garchomp discussion, but that's apparently what you want to argue about). Your max HP/Def Bold Suicune is taking 63% minimum from Garchomp's Outrage while it breaks the Yache, and Gengar can't switch in on that. You could bring in a max HP/Def Impish Bronzong instead, but it will still eat 37% from Outrage. Now if Garchomp's Outrage has ended, it can switch out and you don't kill it (or it could risk the confusion and possibly Fire Fang you for the KO). If Outrage doesn't end, Bronzong will eat another 37% minimum from it and will not kill it with Gyro Ball (No Spa/Bold Suicune's Ice Beam does 47% max to Chomp, and No Atk/Impish Bronzong's Gyro Ball does a paltry 20% max). So basically, your "playing around it" results in your Suicune and Bronzong being flattened (or Gengar being killed, if for whatever reason you still think he's a good switch-in to Chomp) and Garchomp not necessarily being dead.

I don't want to be responsible for this turning into a Garchomp discussion, but honestly, that attempt to prove me wrong was absolutely lackluster.

 

[Stathakis]

A smart SD Facade Heracross user will kill a Pokemon. A smart Tyranitar will kill a Pokemon. A smart Dugtrio will kill a Pokemon. A smart Exploder will kill a Pokemon.

The difference here being...?

Also, no, you're not forced to sacrifice a Pokemon. You can play around it you know. Say, go to Suicune as it Swords Dances. Break its Yache with Ice Beam, then go to Gengar to dodge an Earthquake for a kill. It's definitely not a guaranteed kill.

or go to scarfnite on the eq or swords dance and hit him with a STAB dragon move. or go to cbgross on an outrage and do big damage with ice punch or meteor mash. or just go to bronzong, possibly sleep it, set up screens and shit, and sweep the other dude with something like ddlo gyara. the list can certainly go on, as it can for every other pokemon.

but the list goes on for flame hera, as well as the other dudes. go to jolly gliscor on the sd and aerial ace the blighter dead. or go to scarftran on an sd, megahorn, or facade. hell, go to subcm jirachi and psychic. or go to whatever the hell else you want that resists the incoming move and is faster and can OHKO. it's a pretty long list.

tyanitar? this is a little harder since you have to scout it at first, but you can go to gliscor on icebeam-less ones. or go to chomp as he tries to stone edge. or go to scarfcross as he dragon dances. or to resttalk spiritomb when he tries focus punching.

duggy is a little harder seeing as you can't switch, but you can easily make use of the free turns given by cb or the tiny power given by lo and set up a sweep.

the point is you don't need to counter something to kill it. in fact, I really don't think that you CAN counter stuff most of the time, and that it's better to just try and revenge kill shit and keep it from coming in. because if shit can't come in, it certainly can't really do anything, other than pose the threat of coming in.

 

[umbarsc]

Uh, yeah, stop with the borderline-ad hominem.

What is "extremely situational" about Pursuit?

Gliscor needs a very large amount of speed to outrun Jolly Heracross and rarely packs Aerial Ace, so with that argument you could just as easily claim that Kingdrom's defensive CB Gyarados with Avalanche means that Garchomp won't be killing things (it will always live through a Swords Danced Outrage, even with Stealth Rocks, and will always OHKO through Yache with Avalanche).

Even if the Exploder kills itself, that's irrelevant, right? As long as it kills something it's uber (the results are usually the same if you start blasting away with things with SD Yache Chomp with Outrage). You neglected to respond to my comment about Dugtrio, which is perhaps the most relevant (it almost certainly will take out a Pokemon if played right).

On another note, why did you bring Bronzong into this? I never mentioned Bronzong, so it's not as if you refuted my claim of Bronzong being a Garchomp counter. That could just as easily be any other steel and that whole argument is thrown out the window. In fact, I never was arguing about a Steel-type at all, I was just giving an example of how Garchomp can be played around.

What exactly about "playing around it" is a bad argument? I'm not saying that is the reason I don't believe Garchomp is OU, but do not try to claim that "Garchomp always gets a kill". If, in an actual game, I switch in Gengar on your Garchomp's Earthquake, do I care what "might" have happened? If my sole argument was "it can be played around", I'd agree with you, but that's just a single counter-argument to your one point.

Also, how the hell did we get started talking about Garchomp? The moral of this thread is: do not bring up Garchomp's tier status or the thread will get derailed. Yeah, since this is not really the purpose of the thread I'll just stop here.

 

[imperfectluck]

I don't see any problems using "Counters," Blissey is a pretty much 100% counter to any Specs sets, Gliscor with Aerial Ace will always be a counter to all but the most obscure Heracross sets, what's wrong with that? Sure, there's more than one way to build a team than just with counters in mind, for instance I make sure my offensive team doesn't let Lucario have a chance to set up, but that's still "countering" it in my own way, isn't it?

 

[Stathakis]

what I was trying to get at was that by outplaying the opponent you can get past any big threat of a pokemon ._.

playing around is really the only way to go imo, since we've already decided that countering really doesn't work with things like garchomp, heracross, and tyranitar. now, I guess I should define playing around. I'm talking about utilizing resists and moderately decent prediction to get in and either revenge kill or force a threat out, and then after that keeping it out by not giving it a chance to switch back in, or punishing its attempts to switch in, thus nullifying it.

so yea, I guess I was kinda trying to bring the arguement away from garchomp and back to counters. but I must've not communicated my thoughts very well >.>

edit: or you could be like IPL and just call everything a "counter," so I guess we'd have to define that too.

 

[SubVersion]

What is "extremely situational" about Pursuit?

The fact it doesn't guarantee a kill against the majority of Pokemon in the game the majority of the time?

Gliscor needs a very large amount of speed to outrun Jolly Heracross and rarely packs Aerial Ace

Err...

Even if the Exploder kills itself, that's irrelevant, right?

You still lost a Pokemon, in contrast to Garchomp's kill not costing him his own life. 6-5 is better than 5-5, isn't it?

On another note, why did you bring Bronzong into this? I never mentioned Bronzong, so it's not as if you refuted my claim of Bronzong being a Garchomp counter.

You said you'd switch Gengar into Garchomp which was silly because he just flat-out dies to anything that isn't Earthquake, so I substituted in something else that does a slightly better job at stopping Chomp. I actually trie making counter-example stronger in order to show you how weak the reasoning is; me pointing out that Gengar would be killed by a +2 Outrage doesn't do much, while me pointing out that Garchomp still beats a much better "counter" does.

Also, how the hell did we get started talking about Garchomp? The moral of this thread is: do not bring up Garchomp's tier status or the thread will get derailed. Yeah, since this is not really the purpose of the thread I'll just stop here.

Funnily enough, Garchomp was brought into it by Tangerine in the first post (which makes it even more ridiculous he had a hissy fit when other people brought him up).

It's because the claims such as "A Pokemon having counters or not is irrelevant to it's tier placement" and "Playing around an opponent is better than countering it" tie in so easily to the Garchomp example. Showing that logic doesn't work in the most extreme case (and I hope we can agree most people would consider Garchomp one of the most "extreme cases") is usually the best way to discount it. And in Garchomp's case, I'd say neither of those claims hold up.

 

[Bourbon]

Wow, Umbarsc, and you say I don't know what I am talking about.

You can switch in Gliscor into Heracross 100% of the time and win. If you want to get started about SD Flame Orb Heracross, Gliscor can shrug off any unboosted hit and outspeed for a KO. Heracross NEEDs a Swords Dance to do anything to it. Considering Gliscor has 10 base speed higher than Heracross, it doesn't require "lots of speed EVs". Jolly with 176 speed outruns Jolly Heracross. Impish with the same amount of speed EVs outruns Adamant Heracross. Aerial Ace OHKOs every single time. If Heracross has the flying resist berry (lol, just thought I'd say this before someone decided to bring it up) it cannot beat Gliscor with swords danced attacks.

I honestly don't know how people can keep comparing other things to Garchomp, Gengar or even Swords Dance Lucario. SD Heracross is NOT guarenteed a kill. Under reasonable circumstances, Garchomp is. And if you just so happen to not have anything faster, you'll lose a pokemon and have another one critically injured before taking it down.

Now I know that this isn't a Garchomp discussion thread. So we should probably avoid bringing him up if possible. However, saying that none of these other pokemon have counters is absurd. No matter how hard you try, no matter how weird the EV spread or the set is, there is no pokemon that can switch into Garchomp and defeat it without getting killed first.

And the dumb Metagross can kill hippowdon thing is retarded... it cannot win without Explosion, which requires killing itself in the process. Metagross cannot beat Bronzong either, save for Explosion.

 

[thekooch]

To be honest, I find the opening post on this thread offensive. I would consider myself an average/ bad player, who has tried to get to grips with pokemons complex and intricate game mechanics for months.

The way Smogon's analyses index teaches you, is to always bear in mind counters to threatening characters. This is how we all learn isnt it?

The way the thread comes across is, all the great players are just slamming down all the bad players, and showing off how damn good they are. its only a game.

"Rant over"

 

[Tangerine]

Updated the OP. hopefully this clarifies things a bit.

Also remind me not to make threads past midnight anymore

Also "lol 1 star"

 

[Mr.E]

banning perfectly counters every pokémon olol gg garchomp

THis is totally a Garchomp thread. Too bad he's now BANISHED TO THE SHAD... Oh, you know what I mean. Glad I don't play pokémon with all this fucked-up nonsense going on now.

Just to stay on-topic, stuff started becoming uncounterable back in Advance. Too many threats to account for all of them at once, the switch to EVs making any given pokémon either take more or dish out less damage to the pokémon they previously would've walled easily, and such. Sticking anything on your team solely for the sake of countering X was always a stupid idea. What if your opponent doesn't have X? What if your opponent's X is a specialized set aimed at beating its supposed counters, for the sake of baiting them out and nabbing surprise kills? You're putting yourself down 5-6 before the match even begins when you dedicate slots on your team to pure counters and also open yourself up to getting beat by pokémon X anyway if your counter unexpectedly falls first.

Why use Cresselia? Is she your Infernape counter? Your Garchomp counter? Well, before it was banned. :/ If so, you are wrong. The questions you should be asking are whether or not it can support your team's strategy. Does T-Wave help out my slower pokémon, would pseudopassing be useful to help set up teammates, do I need it for status absorption, would a Calm Minder complement my physical offense and does it carry a variety of attacking types (Psychic, Shadow, Ice) otherwise not present on my team? If you can't find a use for a pokémon beyond what it can counter, then don't use it. Find another pokémon that can also serve as a counter but also flow with your team's gameplan or also cover up other weaknesses. (Salamence can also counter Infernape while also providing you with much-needed Speed or covering for Heracross.) Else, sacrifice a moveslot or two on your existing pokémon to deter the problem pokémon -- put Thunderpunch on your Metagross or Tbolt on your Scarf PoryZ if Gyarados is that much of a bother.

That's part of it, and I do believe jrrr addressed this point himself: The argument never has been that Garchomp has no counters per say, but that a well-played (which isn't hard) Garchomp cannot be stopped until it is allowed to kill something first. Really, the fact he has "no counters" falls into that, but isn't the main point. Looking at it now, this whole thread is really just attacking a straw man argument.

Well-played anything "cannot be stopped until it is allowed to kill something first." If anything, this is more true of Gengar than Garchomp (Yachechomp specifically) as it has two highly usable suicide moves to lean back on after it makes its usual first kill (often by surprise / trickery / unpredictability), not including disabling a third pokémon through Hypnosis. Fancy that Gengar is/was also #2 in usage.

The thing is that it doesn't always work like that. Your opponents have access to the same pokémon, you can't both be unbeatable unless every battle is a draw. Yachechomp will lose to surprise Scarfchomp. (Why would anyone use non-Yache Garchomp when Yachechomp is so broken?!) Gliscor's Sand Veil will occasionally out-hax it. Intelligent use of Skarmory to block Garchomp until it can be handled later can prevent it from killing anything, much like the ol' bird did to Curselax in GSC. Maybe your opponent predicted you switching it in against his Heatran and smacks you with HP Ice, eliminating the Yache Berry and forcing you to switch out of the 2HKO. Hell, maybe he just got lucky and BRN-ed with Flamethrower, or crit with Overheat, or Exploded on you. Just like Gengar missing Hypnosis twice in a row or unfortunately having Weavile switch in on the same turn (Scarfgar, oops!), a million things can happen to ANY pokémon that prevents them from showcasing their supposed absolute power every single match. Garchomp might be overpowered, but it's not so overpowered (i.e. broken) such that it offers a significantly more reliable "guaranteed" kill(s) than most other top attackers in OU. It's no more overpowered than Gengar's ability to guarantee likewise or Tyranitar to do the same as a bulky, powerful trapper (STAB Pursuit) let alone its faux 1.5x SDf and metagame-altering permanent weather trait.

Tyranitar is so good it got Garchomp banned. sand stream loooooooool

 

[Qzahk]

I didn't really read your post, but I agree strongly that perfect counters are not necessary to stop a pokemon. It's not practical to make a team with counters to everything.

Revengekilling is one great way people do to prevent something from sweeping their team (I think people know this already).

Another way is to use "temporary counters". These are pokemon that can kill an enemy or force it to switch, if it is healthy. For example, an LOgyarados can force standard infernape to switch, if gyara is healthy. Since infernape will be hard to switch in again, making it switch just that time is very helpful, even if gyara probably won't be able do it multiple times. Same thing with Lucario against Garchomp. I think this is also known as a check?

 

[umbarsc]

You said you'd switch Gengar into Garchomp which was silly because he just flat-out dies to anything that isn't Earthquake, so I substituted in something else that does a slightly better job at stopping Chomp. I actually trie making counter-example stronger in order to show you how weak the reasoning is; me pointing out that Gengar would be killed by a +2 Outrage doesn't do much, while me pointing out that Garchomp still beats a much better "counter" does.

That's the flaw in your argument. This is assuming you're right about the topic you're debating about. This is circular logic. "You need a counter to stop a Pokemon because you can't send anything else in on a Pokemon because it isn't a counter which you need to stop Pokemon"

Who cares if Gengar can only come in on Earthquake? (or, you know, Swords Dance) Does that occur to me when I send in Sceptile while you Swords Dance to OHKO with Leaf Storm? A counter is the safest way to deal with a Pokemon, but is far from necessary. If you predict wrong, then yes, you will lose a Pokemon. But doesn't that apply to Pokemon in general?

 

[Stathakis]

A counter is the safest way to deal with a Pokemon, but is far from necessary.

wait, are you saying that the safest way to deal with a pokemon is to pack a counter for it, or are you defining a counter as whatever the safest way to deal with something is? god forum arguements arent' my thing.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I've never ever had a problem with Garchomp between a Specs Sceptile and a Forretress. And just because you use a pokemon to counter another pokemon doesn't mean that is the only thing it does like people make it seem. I don't think Garchomp should have been banned but it was the popular thing to do I guess.

 

[froggy25]

The problem with chomp is that you can't prevent him from setting up if you miss your attacks, even by playing offensively in order to prevent your opponent to set up =x

It's not a problem of "Garchomp has no counter" in fact, it's that technically you can't prevent him to killing your ways to deal with it if you're a little unlucky, even by having all of your team preventing him from switching in / setting up because of sand veil.

Garchomp is one of those pokémon who says to his opponent "my ability > your skills". Even if you play very well, even if your team don't let a single opportunity for chomp to attack, you can't be sure to win against him because of the 20 % misses of Sand Veil.

"So why the others Sand Veil users aren't banned ?"
Mainly because they haven't 394 attack and a less versatile offensive move-pool I suppose xD