Pokémon Pheromosa

[AmShowdownNoob]

That is true. Could you still use Naive or is lonely needed for the power?

without a + nature for attack, you have a 25% chance to ohko a normal 252 atk/252 spd mamo, while with lonely you're practically guaranteed. You obviously trade off damage from high jump kick, but, missing a hjk is game over for phero. So this is safer awhile being useful against sashers.

If you want to outspeed 85 speed scarfers, you can run banded with naive nature

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Double Kick (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 372-436 (103 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

edit: as said you can also run hjk instead of ice beam for pure damage for a late game sweep.

 

[GaRgAnt]

I would still use HJK even if i'd run double kick


Because Double Kick Pheromosa is fucking weak as fuck. Seriously, the ONLY reason Pheromosa is strong is HJK.

A STAB U-turn, base 137 in both offensive stats, and you say High Jump Kick is the ONLY reason she's strong? With HJK you're still not OHKOing any Celesteela variant, you're still not getting past Toxapex, Blisseys were probably going to run the fuck away anyways, and you still have a ridiculously powerful U-turn to rely on. Like, 10% of the time when using HJK you're essentially making the next priority move a guaranteed kill on you, as if entry hazard/weather damage wasn't enough to worry about.

And you're right, HJK, while it can't BREAK Toxapex/Celesteela/Tapu Bulu, certainly goes a long way towards denting them. But they have other counters, so I think it isn't too bad to use Double Kick.

 

[JSND]

A STAB U-turn, base 137 in both offensive stats, and you say High Jump Kick is the ONLY reason she's strong? With HJK you're still not OHKOing any Celesteela variant, you're still not getting past Toxapex, Blisseys were probably going to run the fuck away anyways, and you still have a ridiculously powerful U-turn to rely on. Like, 10% of the time when using HJK you're essentially making the next priority move a guaranteed kill on you, as if entry hazard/weather damage wasn't enough to worry about.

And you're right, HJK, while it can't BREAK Toxapex/Celesteela/Tapu Bulu, certainly goes a long way towards denting them. But they have other counters, so I think it isn't too bad to use Double Kick.

Ok lets say it in a very simple term
Is Flygon strong?
because thats literally what Pheromosa become without HJK.


And Bug is a REALLY FUCKING SHITTY typing.


The effect of BP on a pokemon is REALLY huge

 

[pika pal]

Ok lets say it in a very simple term
Is Flygon strong?
because thats literally what Pheromosa become without HJK.


And Bug is a REALLY FUCKING SHITTY typing.


The effect of BP on a pokemon is REALLY huge

Fucking what?

You seriously think High Jump Kick's 130 BP is the only way Pheromosa is strong enough to work in OU?

Where the hell does the Flygon comparison even come from here? I'll humor the comparison to show you not only why it doesn't work, but to put Pheromosa in perspective.

1. Pheromosa has a Base 151 Speed. That outruns a number of SCARF mons in OU, not to mention Mega Alakazam and Aerodactyl, mons whose explicit purpose is going fast. Flygon is Base 100, which is a crowded Speed Tier at best and an insufficient one at worst.

2. Base 137 Mixed offenses is still pretty fucking high on a mon without losing the item slot. Flygon in your comparison is Base 100/80, which is not enough to run a mixed coverage move, or even mixed at all, especially without an offensive boosting item.

3. Bug's not a great offensive typing, but consider also that the Bug STAB of choice is U-Turn, which only has to work to serve its purpose of momentum grabbing, and hits hard besides in a similar manner to Genesect. Flygon needs Dragon Dance to function offensively, so U-Turn's never gonna be anything but a pivot move for defensive sets, and it never presents any pressure on its own.

4. Beast Boost. Pheromosa's most effective general role is that of a Cleaner, meaning Beast Boost only makes it harder to impede the longer you take to properly predict and counterplay against it. If the Scarf set gets an offense boost, nothing's beating it without Priority. Life Orb with a Speed Boost is running circles around everything and only going to get stronger. Not even Flygon, there are very few Pokemon with that kind of Snowball effect, and not many of them pile it on so easily (only one I can think off hand is offensive Magearna).

 

[JSND]

Fucking what?

You seriously think High Jump Kick's 130 BP is the only way Pheromosa is strong enough to work in OU?

Where the hell does the Flygon comparison even come from here? I'll humor the comparison to show you not only why it doesn't work, but to put Pheromosa in perspective.

1. Pheromosa has a Base 151 Speed. That outruns a number of SCARF mons in OU, not to mention Mega Alakazam and Aerodactyl, mons whose explicit purpose is going fast. Flygon is Base 100, which is a crowded Speed Tier at best and an insufficient one at worst.

2. Base 137 Mixed offenses is still pretty fucking high on a mon without losing the item slot. Flygon in your comparison is Base 100/80, which is not enough to run a mixed coverage move, or even mixed at all, especially without an offensive boosting item.

3. Bug's not a great offensive typing, but consider also that the Bug STAB of choice is U-Turn, which only has to work to serve its purpose of momentum grabbing, and hits hard besides in a similar manner to Genesect. Flygon needs Dragon Dance to function offensively, so U-Turn's never gonna be anything but a pivot move for defensive sets, and it never presents any pressure on its own.

4. Beast Boost. Pheromosa's most effective general role is that of a Cleaner, meaning Beast Boost only makes it harder to impede the longer you take to properly predict and counterplay against it. If the Scarf set gets an offense boost, nothing's beating it without Priority. Life Orb with a Speed Boost is running circles around everything and only going to get stronger. Not even Flygon, there are very few Pokemon with that kind of Snowball effect, and not many of them pile it on so easily (only one I can think off hand is offensive Magearna).

Not "strong enough for OU". I prefer not to make bold prediction about something that doesn't exist, but the point is High BP is what makes a pokemon strong. It doesn't matter how much speed and offensive stats you give a pokemon(under reasonable level). Without high BP move, that pokemon won't be strong.


Pheromosa case happen to be so lopsided that the physical alternative to HJK - a decent typing on a 130 BP move - is Double Kick. thats 100% drop in power. Remove HJK from equation(and Focus Blast) and Pheromosa suddenly hits as hard as Flygon using Dragon Claw, U turn is SLIGHTLY more powerful than Flygon Dragon Claw, and nothing Pheromosa had does as much damage as Flygon EQ

 

[pika pal]

Not "strong enough for OU". I prefer not to make bold prediction about something that doesn't exist, but the point is High BP is what makes a pokemon strong. It doesn't matter how much speed and offensive stats you give a pokemon(under reasonable level). Without high BP move, that pokemon won't be strong.


Pheromosa case happen to be so lopsided that the physical alternative to HJK - a decent typing on a 130 BP move - is Double Kick. thats 100% drop in power. Remove HJK from equation(and Focus Blast) and Pheromosa suddenly hits as hard as Flygon using Dragon Claw, U turn is SLIGHTLY more powerful than Flygon Dragon Claw, and nothing Pheromosa had does as much damage as Flygon EQ

I just said Pheromosa had more going for it than just Raw power. Pheromosa's damage may be compared to the level established by Flygon here, but you're also disregarding how much more versatile a mon is for having that power on U-TURN, the noted Base 151 speed tier, and the snow ball effect of Beast Boost.

If you're purely looking at damage output (without Pheromosa's best STAB), sure, she looks to be an unimpressive level, but you're ignoring several other important factors of the mon that DON'T stem from the move BP. Pheromosa doesn't necessarily have one facet that is leagues above everything else, it's the fact that it does a stupid number of things equally well compared to mons who are OU for having HALF of what it has.

For a comparison in lieu of what I'm getting out of this, Charizard-X and Dragonite hit with about the same level of power and have Dragon Dance... if you ignore that Zard-X doesn't have LO recoil, better defensive typing, better base speed, and the ability to threaten multiple sets. You need to actually consider everything the Mon is bringing to the table and how that plays into its role, not how one specific facet measures up to another mon and use that as evidence for/against its performance alone.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

Gengar was OU for a whole of six generations. For THREE of those gens, it didn't have a STAB. For another TWO generations, it thrived on with Shadow Ball, which is not the strongest move either, and only gen6 gave some relevance to its Poison STAB of 90/95 BP. Question is: how has a mon with only above average damage output and paper-thin defenses managed to stay strong for that long? The answer is: its other qualities, and its capability of adapting to many metas.
Yes, a strong HJK is a great boon for Phero, but it is not its only claim to fame.

 

[M BLADE]

If damage output is so important Darmanitan would be OU.
There's much more important things to consider, like typing, coverage and other stats... even metagame trends are decisive on how a pokemon is effective (remember Gastrodon on gen 5?).

Pheromosa high speed plays a much more important part than it's damage output. U-Turn not being as powerful as many other attacks form plenty other mons is irrelevant because U-Turn mainly is for scouting, not for wrecking things.
The best trait Pheromosa has is actually being the fastest scouter of all mons (Ninjask is lame lol), High Jump Kick being the choice of attack should the opportunity comes. Doesn't hurt that it's coming from a 137 base attack either.

 

[zferolie]

without a + nature for attack, you have a 25% chance to ohko a normal 252 atk/252 spd mamo, while with lonely you're practically guaranteed. You obviously trade off damage from high jump kick, but, missing a hjk is game over for phero. So this is safer awhile being useful against sashers.

If you want to outspeed 85 speed scarfers, you can run banded with naive nature

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Double Kick (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 372-436 (103 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

edit: as said you can also run hjk instead of ice beam for pure damage for a late game sweep.

I guess one could use Double kick and High Jump kick, but losing Ice beam hurts a lot since that Ice beam does so much damage to many of the OU dragons. It is possible though. I guess for now I'll grab both a lonely and a Naive nature out of the 4 Pheros I can catch.

Speaking of that what other natures should I get for the other 2? any other good sets like a special attacker?

It seems like a lot of people are making good points about how strong She is. And if I don't run High Jump kick, I should still be hitting pretty hard. Not insanely hard like with High Jump Kick, but decenly with no risk of killing myself.

 

[meowmeow418]

If damage output is so important Darmanitan would be OU.
There's much more important things to consider, like typing, coverage and other stats... even metagame trends are decisive on how a pokemon is effective (remember Gastrodon on gen 5?).

Pheromosa high speed plays a much more important part than it's damage output. U-Turn not being as powerful as many other attacks form plenty other mons is irrelevant because U-Turn mainly is for scouting, not for wrecking things.
The best trait Pheromosa has is actually being the fastest scouter of all mons (Ninjask is lame lol), High Jump Kick being the choice of attack should the opportunity comes. Doesn't hurt that it's coming from a 137 base attack either.

Completely agree. Pheromosa is more of a scout that a sweeper or wallbreaker. That being said, having a 130 BP move when most of your alternatives don't reach that level of power is extremely important.
Honestly, I don't find Pheromosa very scary. Celesteela walls this thing like crazy as does Alola Marowak. Lower tier Pokemon like Jellicent and even Cofagrigus can handle most of Pheromosa's offensive options. That's mainly because it lacks high powered coverage options. Even as a scout, I honestly prefer Ambipom, but that's not the point.
Granted, a Focus Sash set with Psychic Terrain up makes Pheromosa absurdly hard to revenge kill.

 

[Alan]

Gengar was OU for a whole of six generations. For THREE of those gens, it didn't have a STAB. For another TWO generations, it thrived on with Shadow Ball, which is not the strongest move either, and only gen6 gave some relevance to its Poison STAB of 90/95 BP. Question is: how has a mon with only above average damage output and paper-thin defenses managed to stay strong for that long? The answer is: its other qualities, and its capability of adapting to many metas.
Yes, a strong HJK is a great boon for Phero, but it is not its only claim to fame.

not to mention until DPP it's STABs were physical but all it's stats were special based.

Irrespective. Pheromosa is amazing, but it's hugest downside is lack of priority. Not to say it's bad because of that, because it's basically a bull in china shop with checks that are few and far between. HJK is a huge boost to an already strong pokemon. CB reaches over 500 attack and 441 speed (jolly) and that's unboosted. That's fucking crazy. I mean it has like 100 defense and looses to a strong breeze, but it's damage output is bananas. It's speed is nuts too. U-Turn/HJK/whatever tickles your fancy is enough to shred most teams late game.

It was nice to have Aegislash tho cause it stopped it dead. Most ghost-types handle it pretty well like meowwhatever above said. It's strong but not impossibly strong.

 

[Trinitrotoluene]

instead of writing inane "pheromosa needs to be banned" posts, how about you come up with something that actually contributes to the discussion? these kinds of mindless posts are why uncharted territory and the other metagame discussion subforums get such a bad rap everywhere.

anyways, something i've been trying out recently is the usage of hidden power to lure in and hit some of pheromosa's more common switch-ins. the loss of poison jab's coverage and a weakening of high jump kick is noticeable, but i feel that with proper team support, hidden power can be justified over poison jab.

some sample calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 239-286 (63.9 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 354-421 (100.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

thoughts?

 

[zferolie]

instead of writing inane "pheromosa needs to be banned" posts, how about you come up with something that actually contributes to the discussion? these kinds of mindless posts are why uncharted territory and the other metagame discussion subforums get such a bad rap everywhere.

anyways, something i've been trying out recently is the usage of hidden power ground to lure in and hit some of pheromosa's more common switch-ins. the loss of poison jab is noticeable, but i feel that with proper team support, a hidden power can be justified over poison jab.

some sample calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 239-286 (63.9 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Electric vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 354-421 (100.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

thoughts?

Would a Pheromosa run 252 SpA? its useally 252 speed then split rest in attacks. If you put 252 is SpA you wither sacrfic Att or speed

 

[Machi]

Would a Pheromosa run 252 SpA? its useally 252 speed then split rest in attacks. If you put 252 is SpA you wither sacrfic Att or speed

I do not see why it wouldn't be possible if you're going down the road of being a lure set, and given how high Pheromosa's Atk and Spe stat are she would still be fairly threatening regardless. I mean the calcs show the most relevant thing you'd want to kill off with Pheromosa, which also open holes for other team members to capitalize off.

 

[Colonel M]

A big problem with maximizing Special Attack like that off the bat is you weaken your primary attacks pretty hard. Pheromosa's U-turn and High Jump Kick still need some Attack EVs behind it to reliably 2HKO targets after Stealth Rock. Unfortunately it does appear that you need significant investment to reliably 2HKO Toxapex with Hidden Power Electric.

For what it's worth I wouldn't run Hidden Power Ground because Alolan Marowak gets worn down by Stealth Rock and lack of reliable recovery. Hidden Power Electric doesn't sound the worst in place of Poison Jab, but it feels like a move that's only used to desperately KO Mantine and Pelipper as quickly as possible.

For those really worried about Toxapex and Buzzwole switch-ins, my recommendation is to run Groundium Z Dugtrio. Even though people are really dumb and still use Baneful Bunker on Toxapex Dugtrio can pick off a weakened Toxapex or outright KO one with Tectonic Rage. Conversely Dugtrio can use Aerial Ace to shit on Buzzwole, which is one of the few mons really used as a Pheromosa answer in Hyper Offense. That isn't to say priority doesn't check Pheromosa, but this is mainly in arguments for using Hidden Powers to get rid of Pheromosa checks.

For those reading at home this holiday - if you want to be pure evil with either Genesect or Pheromosa pack a Dugtrio. I guarantee you will not regret it. People literally fear Genesect or Phero U-turning to something like Dugtrio. Consider this my Christmas gift for the masses.

 

[meowmeow418]

not to mention until DPP it's STABs were physical but all it's stats were special based.

Irrespective. Pheromosa is amazing, but it's hugest downside is lack of priority. Not to say it's bad because of that, because it's basically a bull in china shop with checks that are few and far between. HJK is a huge boost to an already strong pokemon. CB reaches over 500 attack and 441 speed (jolly) and that's unboosted. That's fucking crazy. I mean it has like 100 defense and looses to a strong breeze, but it's damage output is bananas. It's speed is nuts too. U-Turn/HJK/whatever tickles your fancy is enough to shred most teams late game.

It was nice to have Aegislash tho cause it stopped it dead. Most ghost-types handle it pretty well like meowwhatever above said. It's strong but not impossibly strong.

"meowwhatever?" I'm hurt :(.
My feelings aside, I forgot to mention Toxapex as a solid counter.

I disagree with lack of priority being the biggest downside. Pheromosa has Feint (not a good priority move, but it's there). Pheremosa's biggest issue comes from its movepool lacking anything with significant power outside of HJK and Focus Blast. Of course, if Pheromosa gets Beast Boost to activate a non-speed stat, that changes fast because Pheremosa's delicacy does not give it the luxury to set up, which makes Pokemon like Celesteela, Toxapex, or bulky Ghost types much needed additions to a team. Pheromosa is not a diet-Deoxys. Deoxys has the power to blow through sturdy Pokemon. Pheromosa does not have enough power without HJK or Beast Boost activating.

 

[zferolie]

So speaking of beast boost. Do you want speed, or Power to raise? If its power, if one goes for a Naive nature, what would the EV's need to be to be as fast as possible, but also getting a power boost?

 

[tegrof19]

slap together a team of this with lo, specs magearna, def lant, scarf genesect, ash-gren, and LO/zap plate koko for god volturn squad, who needs a mega amirite

actually if eterrain is up hp elec doesn't sound too bad eh?

 

[GaRgAnt]

So speaking of beast boost. Do you want speed, or Power to raise? If its power, if one goes for a Naive nature, what would the EV's need to be to be as fast as possible, but also getting a power boost?

You might as well run Adamant or Lonely at that point.

 

[zferolie]

You might as well run Adamant or Lonely at that point.

Yeah after thinking about it a bit Lonely sounds like the best nature. - any defense is fine since lets face it, they are tissues already. Adamant only if you don't run ice beam, which is too good on her for coverage

 

[Jajoken]

Neutral nature with max Speed outspeeds Ash Greninja and everything slower, so it's a viable option if you want to boost an offensive stat with Beast Boost rather than Speed. Just make sure other members of your team can handle Mega Zam/Aero as well as some slower Scarf users like Xurkitree. Also, Scarf Phero runs a neutral nature so it can boost Attack while maintaining its revenge killing potential, so that's an option if you don't mind the choice lock.

 

[zferolie]

Neutral nature with max Speed outspeeds Ash Greninja and everything slower, so it's a viable option if you want to boost an offensive stat with Beast Boost rather than Speed. Just make sure other members of your team can handle Mega Zam/Aero as well as some slower Scarf users like Xurkitree. Also, Scarf Phero runs a neutral nature so it can boost Attack while maintaining its revenge killing potential, so that's an option if you don't mind the choice lock.

That is quite fast. I do plan to have a Alolan Marrowak on the team, so that may be able to handle the alakazam. But is being super fast to pass those guys worth the attack drop... though choice scarf may be a good idea... i was planning on using a life orb.

 

[magic123]

I was supposed to be playing SuMo OU but this one Pokemon keeps High Jump Kicking my ass.

I agree completely that the biggest downside to Pheromosa is not the lack of notable priority,but the lack of an expansive movepool. Seriously,Stone Edge would have worked wonders for her.Bug/Fighting,while having great supereffective coverage,(it's supereffective against a combined 7 types) it's neutral coverage is really lacking as flying types,ghost types,poison types,fairy types,and to an extent bug types all fare well against bug/fighting coverage.As stall teams usually have quite a few Pokemon of these types (as they are naturally good defensive types),it makes dealing with Pheromosa a piece of cake for stall.

 

[Seamus Eso]

While I agree speed, coverage, typing etc are important factors in viability and not just raw power, if anyone denies that a 130 BP STAB move isnt the biggest weapon of our brokenass bug, he's a plain idiot. A set of weakess moves (U-Turn / Ice Beam /Poison Jab / Double Kick) is the worst possible trash you can run in ou.

 

[nameless90]

Yeah after thinking about it a bit Lonely sounds like the best nature. - any defense is fine since lets face it, they are tissues already. Adamant only if you don't run ice beam, which is too good on her for coverage

I higly recommed a - SpD nature unless you are going to use Jolly for the extra speed. A - Def nature really is detrimental when you have to stomach a priority move, and physical ones are most common than the special ones.

This is a small thing, but it's important when you think that LO itself puts a timer on you.