Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

:ss/timburr::ss/gurdurr::ss/conkeldurr:

I find it odd that none of these guys learn moves based on their material of choice. Timburr doesn't learn Wood Hammer, Conkeldurr doesn't learn Sand Tomb, Gurdurr doesn't learn... I dunno fuckin' Metal Burst or some shit. It seems like such a no-brainer for a family themed around fighting with various construction materials, especially before Gen 8 when prevo-exclusive moves were a thing.
The Timburr line doesn't get thematically appropriate moves because it's the only fundamentally bad evolutionary line in the entire series don't @ me
 

Pikachu315111

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Honchkrow and Absol are looking at you with sadness and disappointment.

edit: for what matters, critkiss was also actually a legit thing on VGC for a while. 50% chance to ruin the opponent was nothing to sneeze at on one of the best pokemon of the format.
Yeah, there's those three (though doesn't Togekiss prefer Serene Grace for Air Slash flinching?), though I'm more thinking about Pokemon who learn quite a few of the Slash moves (or at least should). Sandslash, Persian, Scyther family, Kabutops, Gligar family, Sneasel family, Skarmory, Sceptile, Drapion, Gallade, Serperior, Samurott, Leavanny, Escavalier, Axew family, Bisharp, Swords of Justice, Honedge family, Binacle family, Lurantis, Sirfetch'd, & Zacian.

And yes, I know the flavor behind Super Luck doesn't quite fit some of them, which I guess then means creating a cutting/slash version of Iron Fist/Strong Jaw wouldn't be a bad idea (and if it provides a smaller Power boost it could also then provide a +1 crit increase too).
 
(though doesn't Togekiss prefer Serene Grace for Air Slash flinching?)
It was mainly a VGC thing, where having dynamaxed togekiss with 50% crit would allow it to get past boosted threats otherwise unlikely to be broken, as the most common dynamaxers often use max airstream / quake / steelspike to respectively boost speed and either defense in order to also not die as soon as dynamax ends.

I don't think critkiss was ever a thing outside of that though.
 
Yeah, there's those three (though doesn't Togekiss prefer Serene Grace for Air Slash flinching?), though I'm more thinking about Pokemon who learn quite a few of the Slash moves (or at least should). Sandslash, Persian, Scyther family, Kabutops, Gligar family, Sneasel family, Skarmory, Sceptile, Drapion, Gallade, Serperior, Samurott, Leavanny, Escavalier, Axew family, Bisharp, Swords of Justice, Honedge family, Binacle family, Lurantis, Sirfetch'd, & Zacian.

And yes, I know the flavor behind Super Luck doesn't quite fit some of them, which I guess then means creating a cutting/slash version of Iron Fist/Strong Jaw wouldn't be a bad idea (and if it provides a smaller Power boost it could also then provide a +1 crit increase too).
Increasing the distribution on Sniper might work as well. Drapion and Barbaracle already have it.

I also always considered Excadrill to be part of the 'bladed group,' partially because Drill Run is a high-crit move.
 
Increasing the distribution on Sniper might work as well. Drapion and Barbaracle already have it.
I think Sniper is generally inferior to Super Luck though.
Super luck can actually get you to 100% crit rate if you combine it with a crit boosting item and crit boosted move, whereas Sniper can at best reach 50% so you have to actually play with RNG instead of having the juicy guaranteed crit.
Kinda why Critdra was always a gimmick and never a real set.
 
Super luck can actually get you to 100% crit rate if you combine it with a crit boosting item and crit boosted move, whereas Sniper can at best reach 50% so you have to actually play with RNG instead of having the juicy guaranteed crit.
Uhm, doesn't Focus Energy + Crit-boosting item (or crit-boosted move) raise the chance to 100% too?

Although, sure, the fact you need to spend the item slot and one turn just to raise the rate is not exactly great...
 
Uhm, doesn't Focus Energy + Crit-boosting item (or crit-boosted move) raise the chance to 100% too?

Although, sure, the fact you need to spend the item slot and one turn just to raise the rate is not exactly great...
Yep it's not really applicable, Z-tailwind (boosts crit as well) was actually a fun gimmick on lugia iirc in USUM but that's more or less what it was, a gimmick.
As you probably know, if a strategy requires hard commitment to pull off, it better be a damn good and consistent strategy...
 
So this is more abilities than moves but it is something I would like to discuss.

Several Pokemon have had their hidden abilities changed between generations, sometimes unreleased before the change was made in the code such as Zapdos going from Lightning Rod to Static in 5->6, or the Legendary Dogs/Cats/Gerbils/Beasts all getting Inner Focus instead of their "absorb" HA's in 6->7. The most infamous case of this is probably Chandelure going from Shadow Tag to the much more tame Infiltrator.

What I want to post for discussion is why you think some of these abilities, both released and unreleased, were changed. We could discuss if the reason for the change might have been balance concerns, a simple oversight, VGC vs Normal In-Game interaction, or perhaps one fitting better flavor-wise than another. Unreleased vs Released abilities that were changed may also factor into how likely one explanation is vs another.

NOTE: While they are open for discussion as well, I did not initially think on this topic with Pokemon who had abilities changed to increase distribution on rarer-in-general Abilities such as Gen 7 adding the additional Weather Setters on otherwise innocuous Pokemon.

The change on the Legendary Beasts is the one I find the most immediately interesting. Inner Focus's Flinch prevention doesn't seem like it has too much to do with their concept (other than a very broad "majestic beasts unfazed by posturing" idea), whereas the "Absorb" abilities do feel more in-line with the ties between the Pokemon and their element (Entei being born alongside or causing eruptions of Volcanos, Raikou carrying Lightning in the cloud on its back).

Zapdos meanwhile is odd because while Static is by no means a bad ability for it in-game or in Comp, Lightning Rod seems more in line with how some of its Pokedex entries describe it as being able to control Electricity or gaining power when struck by lightning. My best guess is that it was to bring Zapdos in line with Moltres and Articuno having abilities based more directly on their Physiology like Flame Body and Snow Cloak (though Moltres's entries about dipping into Fire or Volcanoes to heal make me think Flash Fire would also suit it to go the other direction).
 

Merritt

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I think it's pretty likely that it's for balance purposes. Zapdos, to use that example, already got a decent bit of usage in VGC even without a way to shut down Thundurus (who saw extremely high usage in VGC12, which seems likely the time they were finalizing rebalancing changes for XY), and giving it an ability that exerts that level of control over the field was probably a step too far in their eyes. The other legendary birds kept getting changes to try and bring them up to Zapdos' level, giving Zapdos an even stronger effect would've been somewhat counterproductive.

VGC usage definitely seems to have an effect on GF balancing decisions. The sheer ubiquity of gems in gen 5 VGC, and how they provided a fairly easy way to not worry about the item clause, appears to me a good reason why they were removed almost entirely from the game.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
So this is more abilities than moves but it is something I would like to discuss.

Several Pokemon have had their hidden abilities changed between generations, sometimes unreleased before the change was made in the code such as Zapdos going from Lightning Rod to Static in 5->6, or the Legendary Dogs/Cats/Gerbils/Beasts all getting Inner Focus instead of their "absorb" HA's in 6->7. The most infamous case of this is probably Chandelure going from Shadow Tag to the much more tame Infiltrator.

What I want to post for discussion is why you think some of these abilities, both released and unreleased, were changed. We could discuss if the reason for the change might have been balance concerns, a simple oversight, VGC vs Normal In-Game interaction, or perhaps one fitting better flavor-wise than another. Unreleased vs Released abilities that were changed may also factor into how likely one explanation is vs another.

NOTE: While they are open for discussion as well, I did not initially think on this topic with Pokemon who had abilities changed to increase distribution on rarer-in-general Abilities such as Gen 7 adding the additional Weather Setters on otherwise innocuous Pokemon.

The change on the Legendary Beasts is the one I find the most immediately interesting. Inner Focus's Flinch prevention doesn't seem like it has too much to do with their concept (other than a very broad "majestic beasts unfazed by posturing" idea), whereas the "Absorb" abilities do feel more in-line with the ties between the Pokemon and their element (Entei being born alongside or causing eruptions of Volcanos, Raikou carrying Lightning in the cloud on its back).

Zapdos meanwhile is odd because while Static is by no means a bad ability for it in-game or in Comp, Lightning Rod seems more in line with how some of its Pokedex entries describe it as being able to control Electricity or gaining power when struck by lightning. My best guess is that it was to bring Zapdos in line with Moltres and Articuno having abilities based more directly on their Physiology like Flame Body and Snow Cloak (though Moltres's entries about dipping into Fire or Volcanoes to heal make me think Flash Fire would also suit it to go the other direction).
I remember bringing this up a while ago and the consensus was, yeah, it's to do with balance concerns.

Can't say for the HA, but the source code for SM revealed that Destiny Bond mechanics changed because of Mega Gengar. So yeah, they do look at the competitive scene for making changes.
I have a pretty strong recollection of someone from Game Freak basically admitting that they made a mistake with Scolipede's original ability, since having an immunity to being poisoned interferes with Quick Feet, but cannot find any evidence of this so it might be a false memory.

As Merritt said we know that GF does keep an eye on Pokemon usage and they've said that they tend to design new Pokemon with the aim of countering the previous generation's most-used one (that one definitely was said in an interview but again, frustratingly, I cannot find it - if anyone has a link please share it).
 
Then why bother nerfing them and introducing the Fairy Gem in Gen 6?
The decision to not let you obtain them entirely (aside from the Normal gem) was probably done later in development.

if I had to guess the timeline here:
"What if we stil lhad them? We'll need a Fairy gem too!"
"Hmm these are too strong, what if we nerfed them?"
"This is still a little much, what if we just left it with the Normal Gem, the least influential gem?"
"Alright gems are out, let's revist the concept with Z Moves"
 
You can blame Gen 3 Piloswine learning Amnesia at level 70 because it's just the Crystal Moveset (where it was a new move added to the end of its moveset) copied over with Odor Sleuth added as a level 1 move. The usual modus operandi for many generations is unless the Pokemon was in the dex, it would just copy over the previous moveset with only a slight tweak (like a level 1 move).

Now why did Crystal decide Level 70 Amnesia (the second to last move it learns at level 56 by the way) was a good idea? Who can say
 
Crystal left the moveset the same, except for tossing in Amnesia at the very end. So I assume the high level was just because they didn't want to move anything earlier than that, and the gap isn't that much longer than previous gaps(generally 9 levels). What's weird to me is that Bulbapedia mentions only 15 mons received moveset changes between GS and C, one of which is Suicune. So I looked through a bunch of movesets. Not all, but a lot, and I I found Spinarak/Ariados swapping Screech for Agility and Sneasel getting Metal Claw at 65. What went through their mind for these changes? Why mess with these mons and not their counterparts? Like, okay, give Sneasel something, sure, but was Piloswine missing Amnesia? Ariados needed a way to boost it's base 40 Speed? And what are the random 9 mons I couldn't find? Why not give Teddiursa or Ledian something?
 
Crystal left the moveset the same, except for tossing in Amnesia at the very end. So I assume the high level was just because they didn't want to move anything earlier than that, and the gap isn't that much longer than previous gaps(generally 9 levels). What's weird to me is that Bulbapedia mentions only 15 mons received moveset changes between GS and C, one of which is Suicune. So I looked through a bunch of movesets. Not all, but a lot, and I I found Spinarak/Ariados swapping Screech for Agility and Sneasel getting Metal Claw at 65. What went through their mind for these changes? Why mess with these mons and not their counterparts? Like, okay, give Sneasel something, sure, but was Piloswine missing Amnesia? Ariados needed a way to boost it's base 40 Speed? And what are the random 9 mons I couldn't find? Why not give Teddiursa or Ledian something?
I would argue that 14 levels is a lot, especially when exp slows way down.

anyway i actually have the Crystal guide that helpfully lists them all out so:
1 & 2. Spinarak & Ariados, as you mentioned, swapped Screech for Agility (Psychic is still after) at level 45 (Spinarak)/53 (Ariados)
3: Yanma now gets Wing Attack instead of Swift at level 37
4: Qwilfish now has Spikes as a level 1 move (so you can only get it by breeding a new one)
5. Sneasel gets Metal Claw as its new final move at 65
6, 7, & 8: The hoppip line now gets Synthesis at Level 5 instead of level 1. No really. That's the change. Didn't even move Tail Whip to a different level or do the, you know, smart thing, and put Tackle as a level 1 move...
9. Magneton gets Tri Attack isntead of Swift at level 35
10. Eevee gets Baton Pass at level 36 instead of Focus Energy
11. Suicune obviously got most of the changes. It now learns Bubble beam instead of Water Gun at level 11, Rain Dance instead of Roar at 21 and Aurora Beam at 41 instead of Bubble Beam
12. Cloyster now learns Spikes at level 33. It didn't learn anything at level 33 otherwise in GSC
13. Dugtrio learns Tri Attack at level 1. Fun fact the only way to get this without Pokemon Stadium 2 is to find the Level 16 Dugtrio that has a 10% of spawning in the Day Time exclusively.
14 & 15: Swinub & Piloswine, as we've discussed already.
 
I would argue that 14 levels is a lot, especially when exp slows way down.

anyway i actually have the Crystal guide that helpfully lists them all out so:
1 & 2. Spinarak & Ariados, as you mentioned, swapped Screech for Agility (Psychic is still after) at level 45 (Spinarak)/53 (Ariados)
3: Yanma now gets Wing Attack instead of Swift at level 37
4: Qwilfish now has Spikes as a level 1 move (so you can only get it by breeding a new one)
5. Sneasel gets Metal Claw as its new final move at 65
6, 7, & 8: The hoppip line now gets Synthesis at Level 5 instead of level 1. No really. That's the change. Didn't even move Tail Whip to a different level or do the, you know, smart thing, and put Tackle as a level 1 move...
9. Magneton gets Tri Attack instead of Swift at level 35
10. Eevee gets Baton Pass at level 36 instead of Focus Energy
11. Suicune obviously got most of the changes. It now learns Bubble beam instead of Water Gun at level 11, Rain Dance instead of Roar at 21 and Aurora Beam at 41 instead of Bubble Beam
12. Cloyster now learns Spikes at level 33. It didn't learn anything at level 33 otherwise in GSC
13. Dugtrio learns Tri Attack at level 1. Fun fact the only way to get this without Pokemon Stadium 2 is to find the Level 16 Dugtrio that has a 10% of spawning in the Day Time exclusively.
14 & 15: Swinub & Piloswine, as we've discussed already.
That's really useful, in that it shows THERE IS NO LOGIC. They're mostly buffs, or at least not actively bad, but basically all except Cloyster/Sneasel/Quilfish/Eevee/Suicune are pointless. Some require a stupid-high level, some require a stupid-low level, and then some just get things tossed into the middle of their moveset. I'm not complaining that they did something, but why such minor changes on 5% of the mons in the game?
 
Another oddity in Flareon's Gen 2 & 3 moveset. It learns Leer at LEVEL 47!!! This is very bizarre. Usually Leer is a starting move or early level up move for most Pokemon (like Growl, Tail Whip, etc). Plus Flareon has Tail Whip as a starting move. Leer is completely identical to Tail Whip in effect and PP. So it's redundant too. The other Eeveelutions learn stat altering moves at or around that level too. But their's usually deal with two stage stat changes. Maybe the developers couldn't think of another stat move for Flareon, but isn't there any stat move better than Leer?
 

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