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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

R_N said:
No? It has very little lore honestly, beyond being good at digging and being lazy in its off time (Respect the work-life balance).
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So this is really funny, but I read "Diggersby" and my mind went "Greedent"

They're both Pokemon I thoroughly dislike (really not fond of the "derpy blob" archetype or the regional rodents in general, except for Furret who I quite like) and I regularly mix up which gen they're from as they're both particularly good examples of the shift in artstyle over time.

So my mind was more on Greedent, but idk Diggersby gives a greedy vibe too: it's fat, and also has Pickup and Cheek Pouches as abilities so it has the same acquiring-food aptitude Munchlax displays. And laziness may also play into Snatch: I'm not going to bother getting something myself, I'll just wait for you to get it and steal it off you. It's how a lot of real-world animals get their food tbf.
 
Stories said:
You would think Meloetta would be the perfect user of Psychic Noise.

It's Psychic

It makes noise

It does not learn Psychic Noise?
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Psychic Noise is a move wherein the user makes a sound that is viscerally unpleasant.

Meloetta is a pokemon that prides itself on it's beautiful singing that taps into deep seated emotions in those listening to it. Happy or Sad, it focuses on reaching into the hearts of those around it, and inspires them to create art, to sing and to dance.

Maybe it could do something to recreate the auditory sensation of using an over-tuned stage microphone to play spin the bottle, but it also might just not want to do that. It goes against it's whole deal as a minor art deity and all.

Consider that prideful if you will, but I can appreciate that Meloetta has standards.
 
Stories said:
You would think Meloetta would be the perfect user of Psychic Noise.

It's Psychic

It makes noise

It does not learn Psychic Noise?
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Genuine_Angus_B33F said:
Psychic Noise is a move wherein the user makes a sound that is viscerally unpleasant.

Meloetta is a pokemon that prides itself on it's beautiful singing that taps into deep seated emotions in those listening to it. Happy or Sad, it focuses on reaching into the hearts of those around it, and inspires them to create art, to sing and to dance.

Maybe it could do something to recreate the auditory sensation of using an over-tuned stage microphone to play spin the bottle, but it also might just not want to do that. It goes against it's whole deal as a minor art deity and all.

Consider that prideful if you will, but I can appreciate that Meloetta has standards.
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So basically, the same reason it doesn't get Boomburst.

leafsaber47 said:
Another mon that doesn't learn Slack Off THAT REALLY SHOULD is Spinda. If you subscribe to the fact that "alcoholic = sloth", then this drunken stupor-wielding red panda should get this move.

Not like Spinda finally getting reliable recovery in Slack Off is going to help its viability (of which there is none).
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Looking at the list of Pokémon that learn it, the criteria seems to be stupid Pokémon more so than lazy ones.
 
AztecCroc said:
Looking at the list of Pokémon that learn it, the criteria seems to be stupid Pokémon more so than lazy ones.
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Doesn't explain why Slakoth and Slaking learn it (as well as the Chimchar line but they're more disobedient to me than anything). Does the Pokédex ever highlight the line (except for obviously Vigoroth)'s stupidity?
 
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What makes Spinda 'lazy' exactly, besides the extremely tenuous throughline from perpetual dizziness->alcoholism->sloth?

I feel like it's always portrayed as pretty active despite its affliction and it doesn't get other (non-universal) lazy-coded moves like Yawn. If anything, its level-up movepool seems more energetic/motivated than the average mon, with moves like Sucker Punch, Uproar, Psych Up, and Thrash.
 
Cobalt Empoleon said:
What makes Spinda 'lazy' exactly, besides the extremely tenuous throughline from perpetual dizziness->alcoholism->sloth?
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Yeah that throughline does seem tenuous to an extent, though it's mostly because the "alcoholism->sloth" part of that throughline is something I've placed a lot of my doubt and skepticism on the validity of that statement and believe it's not 100% true. Who says active drunks cannot exist?
 
Mr Rime also gets Slack Off for some reason, and that's not a Pokemon which comes off as lazy either; its dancing is described as highly skilled and graceful, and tap is a pretty energetic form of dance. I guess Slack Off could be taken as a reference to dancers taking a quick time-out between rehearsals - five minutes for a water break and that sort of thing.
 
My thing looking at Slack Off's user pool is that most of them look to be either inherently slow/sedentary creatures (Hippos and Crocodiles, plus Slowpoke mostly sitting there with its tail in the water to fish) or creatures that are very VERY energetic and thus a moment where they sit still is a luxury rather than routine.
  • Mr. Rime dances constantly in its idle animation
  • Infernape is based on the Monkey King and when is Goku, another derivative of that tale, NOT training or fighting?
  • Vigoroth's dex entries mention it has so much energy it physically cannot sit still without stressing out. Like it has to burn abnormal amounts of energy to be able to relax
Vigoroth is the big oddity to answer for as of BDSP, because outside those games, it actually cannot learn Slack off in its own level up pool, only by carrying it over from Slakoth's evolution.

I always took this to be the reason for Snorlax's infamous inability to learn the move: Snorlax isn't lazy in that it can't be bothered to do anything like Slaking, it's just that its routine is gluttony and then sleeping to conserve energy/digest that food (some dex entries like Moon even mention that Snorlax eats in its sleep) since its fat is a defense mechanism (like Weddell Seals being Apex Predators because they're too fat to viably prey on). Slaking by comparison is so lazy it literally will not move unless there's nothing it can reach from where it lies down. It's like the difference between a person who's just lethargic and a person who's a professional eater: the habit is associated with laziness but is at a level that takes effort and exertion to maintain.

(PS Snorlax still should have a normal Recovery move even if not Slack Off. Not like Recover has 100% consistency with its flavor and learners)
 
pika pal said:
My thing looking at Slack Off's user pool is that most of them look to be either inherently slow/sedentary creatures (Hippos and Crocodiles, plus Slowpoke mostly sitting there with its tail in the water to fish) or creatures that are very VERY energetic and thus a moment where they sit still is a luxury rather than routine.
  • Mr. Rime dances constantly in its idle animation
  • Infernape is based on the Monkey King and when is Goku, another derivative of that tale, NOT training or fighting?
  • Vigoroth's dex entries mention it has so much energy it physically cannot sit still without stressing out. Like it has to burn abnormal amounts of energy to be able to relax
Vigoroth is the big oddity to answer for as of BDSP, because outside those games, it actually cannot learn Slack off in its own level up pool, only by carrying it over from Slakoth's evolution.

I always took this to be the reason for Snorlax's infamous inability to learn the move: Snorlax isn't lazy in that it can't be bothered to do anything like Slaking, it's just that its routine is gluttony and then sleeping to conserve energy/digest that food (some dex entries like Moon even mention that Snorlax eats in its sleep) since its fat is a defense mechanism (like Weddell Seals being Apex Predators because they're too fat to viably prey on). Slaking by comparison is so lazy it literally will not move unless there's nothing it can reach from where it lies down. It's like the difference between a person who's just lethargic and a person who's a professional eater: the habit is associated with laziness but is at a level that takes effort and exertion to maintain.

(PS Snorlax still should have a normal Recovery move even if not Slack Off. Not like Recover has 100% consistency with its flavor and learners)
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Great post, although this doesn't really address why alcoholics as Pokémon would always need learn Slack Off even if they don't meet one of the two criteria to have Slack Off as discussed in the top half of this post.
 
leafsaber47 said:
Great post, although this doesn't really address why alcoholics as Pokémon would always need learn Slack Off even if they don't meet one of the two criteria to have Slack Off as discussed in the top half of this post.
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I didn't address this because Spinda's never been a hot topic for lacking the move compared to Snorlax, and because I don't subscribe to that line of logic first and foremost because "Dizzy -> Alcoholic" is a massive stretch when creatures can be disoriented or dizzy for any number of reasons besides ingesting a substance like Booze.

Not to mention even if I entertain that, "Alcoholic -> Sloth" is another massive leap to get Slack Off because not every drunk person is lazy or slothful. One of the most common stereotypical depictions of drunk people is that they're bouncing off the walls and doing stupid things that endanger themselves or someone else. The Hungover state is closer but in that case they're moreso recuperating than being lazy (Slack Off for non-sedentary species strikes me as "I could do something and have the energy, but choose not to")
 
pika pal said:
Not to mention even if I entertain that, "Alcoholic -> Sloth" is another massive leap to get Slack Off because not every drunk person is lazy or slothful. One of the most common stereotypical depictions of drunk people is that they're bouncing off the walls and doing stupid things that endanger themselves or someone else. The Hungover state is closer but in that case they're moreso recuperating than being lazy (Slack Off for non-sedentary species strikes me as "I could do something and have the energy, but choose not to")
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I actually agree with you on that.
 
It's not that much of a massive leap, regardless of if Spinda specifically should get it. "layabout drunkard" is just as relevant a stereotype to pull on. Nothing says you have to take a given concept in its totality, it just depends on where you want to draw inspiration.

Incidentally Diggersby should probably get Slack Off. It's entire thing is the construction worker that just lazes around once work is done archetype. Even has the classic portly figure, hamaki and five o clock shadow.

Would even be cute to give it at a higher level to contrast with learning Laser Focus early in the learnset. Did all the hardwork in the morning, time to slack off in front of the TV
 
Night Shade's come up a few times here & elsewhere because it's kind of a weird move with a weird name and weird distribution and weird animations. It's all very vague, but a kind of consistent throughline you can find when its not just weird eye beams is the name is "Night Head" and sometimes the animation is appearing to be much larger and spookier that would be focused around the face and it was the signature move in gen 1 to the 3 ghosts who themselves were 90% giant floating ghost heads. Then got put on Pokemon that had prominent faces on them.

So.

Why didn't Misdreavus get it until Gen 9's TM? It's literally a spooky ghost head that appears at night. Probably should have had it from its inauguration
Least it gets it now?
 
Got confused for a moment looking at the tutor list for Night Shade in Gen III before realising it's that Mew-only move tutor. Bulbapedia should really list that separately, it makes no sense to have a full list of species who all don't get it in XD as if it's available to everyone.

The early anime often had Ghosts do the "my head is 200x bigger than before" jump-scare trick, so Night Head matches that - Night Shade is a more generic term, but works well enough. How the move actually works is a bit ambiguously described: the Stadium games call it "highly accurate" which is misleading, it doesn't work like Swift. "Highly focused" or "highly precise" might sum it up a little better (interestingly Sonicboom and Dragon Rage aren't described the same way)

Then later games just go for "the user makes the foe see a mirage" which... basically an illusion, then. Well that's really vague still but basically accurate to "I'm using my mental powers to make my head appear larger and frighten you". So really any Psychic-type should get it if that's the case. Nearly all Ghosts do, Ariados and Darkrai learn it (the former makes sense thanks to its markings and nighttime appearances, the latter because causing phantasms and nightmares is its whole thing), as do Natu/Xatu and Blacephalon (well, the latter of those has a very big head) but there's a couple of less-obvious choices. Murkrow learns it for... some reason, and so does Deoxys because... um. And Kadabra and Alakazam only get it as a level-up move in LGPE... slimmer pickings in that game, I guess.

And funnily enough in Gen II Misdreavus gets SO many incredibly rare or outright unique moves - Pain Split, Psywave, Mean Look, Perish Song, Spite, Destiny Bond... I guess Night Shade was just too ordinary for it.
 
Interesting how many species weren't able to learn Sludge Bomb via TM in Gen II before Game Freak relented and decided they could in Gen III. The Bulbasaur line, Gastly line, Zubat line, Bellossom, and Octillery all initially didn't get it. Bellossom is a curious case as it's not really a Pokemon suited to "hurling unsanitary sludge" at the foe and literally drops the Poison aspect of its pre-evolution, but Poison moves are a generic Grass thing and they tend to have shitty coverage so whatever.

Even in later gens this happens once or twice. Sandygast and Sneasler are later examples of Pokemon who didn't get it at first but then later did - Sandygast apparently just to match its evolution - as are Zorua and Zoroark (Zoroark, of course, got it as an event move first).
 
Well, I'm pleased that since my last visit to this thread that amongst other changes, Metagross got Heavy Slam, Toxicroak Close Combat (let's be real that one was an oversight), Weezing Gunk Shot and Zamazenta Body Press. I've got one or two questions about some of the new S/V changes though:

:sv/dugtrio: :sv/dugtrio-alola: How do these two use Throat Chop with no hands or appendages?

:sv/zangoose: got Aura Sphere? Why?

:sv/iron_jugulis: Lack of Nasty Plot is a crime, same for Enamorus who's described as "it descends upon those who treat any form of life with disrespect and metes out wrathful, ruthless punishment."

:sv/arbok: :sv/sandaconda: :sv/seviper: If Sceptile, Orthworm and Cyclizar get Shed Tail, why not these reptiles? Obviously you need more than a tail for the move, but snakes shed their skin, and they even have Shed Skin for an ability. (no i'm not demanding shed tail for the dratini line)

:sv/iron_leaves: I don't see why Iron Leaves should get Coaching, a move usually reserved for Fighting-types, and Iron Boulder/Iron Crown don't, alongside three of the four Paradoxes that actually are Fighting-type not learning it.

:sv/iron_boulder: Interestingly, Iron Boulder is the only Rock-type (besides ones that gain the type through a forme change) that doesn't learn Stealth Rock. The Toedscool line and Ursaluna are the only Ground-types that didn't get access to it in S/V as well, so it will be interesting to see if Diggersby and Zygarde get Stealth Rock next time they're in a main game.

I also think that alongside the most-definitely balance-minded Toxic/Knock Off/Scald curbing, the dropping of very specific Pokemon from other old TM compatibility feels random (see for instance: why did only Blastoise and Tentacruel lose Waterfall? Jolteon and Zapdos losing Charge Beam?) but that could go on forever. The one exception to me besides the aforementioned big three is Dual Wingbeat Dragonite, which I suspect was based on the popularity of Tera Normal Extreme Speed sets, but the rest of the losses I can find aren't even close to competitively viable.
 
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