The ghostly connection (something the other pollution pokemon dont get) just makes me think normal Weezing should be retyped to Poison/Ghost. Would pair well with its new Poison/Fairy "nice" alternative though they've made a poitn to have the movepools between the two align where applicable so its still kind of ghostly anyway but...still.
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Eh, the other pollution Pokemon are a blob of sludge, a blob of oil, and a pile of trash. Besides gas and spirits sharing surface-level attributes, Weezing isn't really any more ghostly than Muk and Garbodor. In fact, Muk also gets a few spooky egg moves, notably Shadow Sneak, Shadow Punch, and Imprison.
I brought the comparison up because my thought process was: pollutants would leave a grudge from the environment.
Or something to that effect...it made more sense before typing it out.
That said I didn't look as close into Muk's movepool so it's all a bit moot anyway i suppose
What's the rationale behind who gets Helping Hand? Like...Dhelmise gets Helping Hand, but not the Gengar line. Is there rhyme or reason behind who gets it and who doesn't?
I guess maybe if, at least to how GF sees it, the Pokemon is the kind that'll help out another Pokemon or person? Like Dhelmise has possessed an anchor so it helps out on ships (also it's technically made up of multiple souls, remember Dhelmise is the seaweed not the anchor, so it needs to work together) while the Gastly family are more malevolent/mischievous so aren't likely to help out someone in need.
A lot of the Pokemon who get HH seem to be "positive" Pokemon, for lack of a better word: ones with broadly good intentions or heroic outlooks. A lot of Fighting-types get it, as do Pokemon associated with family and groups (Eevee, Marill, Tyrogue, the Nidos, the Latis, Salandit, the Muskedeers).
Dhelmise is a bit of an odd choice, but it's not been shown to be a particularly malevolent Pokemon (the Pokedex talks about it catching prey, but that's pretty standard - most Ghosts, like Gengar, tend to be troublemakers and pranksters, and it's apparently easygoing enough to get along well with Skrelp). Gengar is too mean and too much of a loner to spend its time helping others out.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
I find these ones more confusing than Gengar not getting it, honestly
-Kyurems
-Toxicroak
-Frosmoth (???)
-Zeraora
Toxicroak I guess gets it because it's a fighting type. As greentyphlosion points out for some reason almost every fighting type gets it.
But Kyurem's kind of vicious by nature, Zeraora is explicitly vicious by nature and Frosmoth is just...huh? Why? There are not many bug types that get the move and the ones you do see make some sense. Shuckle has the berry juice connection, Durant's an ant they support each other, Ribombee is a helpful pokemon & Orbeetle probably gets it because Psychic pokemon tend to also get the move
You can't even say its about how it keeps desecrating people off mountains, Ninetales explicitly escorts people down the mountain & doesnt get the move, Frosmoth explicitly whips up blizzards & chases them out.
-Kyurems
-Toxicroak
-Frosmoth (???)
-Zeraora
Toxicroak I guess gets it because it's a fighting type. As greentyphlosion points out for some reason almost every fighting type gets it.
But Kyurem's kind of vicious by nature, Zeraora is explicitly vicious by nature and Frosmoth is just...huh? Why? There are not many bug types that get the move and the ones you do see make some sense. Shuckle has the berry juice connection, Durant's an ant they support each other, Ribombee is a helpful pokemon & Orbeetle probably gets it because Psychic pokemon tend to also get the move
You can't even say its about how it keeps desecrating people off mountains, Ninetales explicitly escorts people down the mountain & doesnt get the move, Frosmoth explicitly whips up blizzards & chases them out.
Kyurem I guess you could argue gets it by virtue of being the Original Dragon - which helped humans and in general was a "heroic" or "well-intentioned" Pokemon like the others I cited.
Frosmoth... I don't know. Several Bugs get the move like you pointed out and Bug is also intended to be a somewhat "heroic" type (it beats the Evil/Dark type, bugs are often plucky underdog heroes in Japanese media, bugs were the initial inspiration for Pokemon as a whole) but I'm really not seeing the logic behind Frosmoth getting it when, say, Vivillon (which has the whole team-play thing going on with Friend Guard) doesn't.
Zeraora gets it because it's a Fighting-type. You know it, I know it, this whole forum knows it, everyone except Game Freak knows it.
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Kyurem: As greentyphlosion said, probably has to do with it being what remains of the Original Dragon. Here's some dex entries:
Toxicroak: Maybe not Toxicroak but some dex entries for Croagunk shows it has some helpful contributions:
Frosmoth: The best explanation I can think of is that it was just a move GF thought would be a useful move for the role they envisioned for it. Frosmoth also learns Mist, Defog, Aurora Veil, Tailwind, and Wide Guard by level-up. That's right, even though its a Bug/Ice, a SUPER fragile Type combination, and highest stat is Special Attack, GF still seems determined to give it some kind of defensive/supportive role! WHY, GF?!
Zeraora: In the movie and anime it was shown to be a noble Pokemon to those it considered friends.
The Duskull line learns Helping Hand. Sableye, too. As far as Ghosts are concerned, it kinda feels like Sableye is among the ultimate pranksters...especially being the only Ghost (that I know of) to get Prankster! Salazzle does NOT seem like a HH Pokémon (also, I am put off by their Pokédex entries surrounding reverse harems).
Ninetales learns it. I remember Ninetales as the one who curses you for 1.000 years for touching one of their tails. Alolan Ninetales does NOT learn Helping Hand. DOES learn Solar Beam, though???
Just looking at who's legal for Gen 8, it definitely seems like there is a heroic/helpful thing going, so long as one pays attention to the Pokédex entries and not just like...appearance. Pangoro seems like a logical choice based on their dislike of bullying, for example? (But you have to fight one with your bare hands, if you want to be the trainer of one, when they can snap a telephone pole in twain with one hit???) If I go looking at who DOESN'T learn it though, I feel like I'm going to be disappointed that many didn't make it to the list.
Ninetales learns it. I remember Ninetales as the one who curses you for 1.000 years for touching one of their tails. Alolan Ninetales does NOT learn Helping Hand. DOES learn Solar Beam, though???
Just looking at who's legal for Gen 8, it definitely seems like there is a heroic/helpful thing going, so long as one pays attention to the Pokédex entries and not just like...appearance. Pangoro seems like a logical choice based on their dislike of bullying, for example? (But you have to fight one with your bare hands, if you want to be the trainer of one, when they can snap a telephone pole in twain with one hit???) If I go looking at who DOESN'T learn it though, I feel like I'm going to be disappointed that many didn't make it to the list.
But the Duskull family does help... it helps bring your soul to the afterlife.
Being gem eaters, it would actually be beneficial for Sableye to help miners as that would be less work for it looking for gems.
Salazzle only has it because Salandit can. As you said, Salazzle form reverse harems of male Salandit who help it with whatever it wishes. And it doesn't hurt once in a while to give your subordinates some encouragement to make them work better.
Ninetales' Dex entries mention its human-level intelligence and can understand human speech so it can be helpful with Human-Pokemon communication.
Alolan Ninetales learning Solar Beam isn't too farfetched. Freshly fallen snow is very good at reflecting light and note Sunny weather doesn't actually negatively effect Ice-types aside making Fire-types stronger.
Worth mentioning Alolan Ninetales gets Solarbeam in gen 8, specifically. With gen 8 they tried to synch up the movesets of the Alolan/Normal forms where applicable. Ninetales wont be throwing out fire moves but it'll pick up things like Solar beam.
It's more noticable on something like Raticate, judging by the Home datamine. There was a number of moves exclusive to one over the other but now they learn most of each other's TMs/TRs.
It's more noticable on something like Raticate, judging by the Home datamine. There was a number of moves exclusive to one over the other but now they learn most of each other's TMs/TRs.
That's a really charitable interpretation of humans. Humans mine for gems to take everything for themselves; they almost certainly wouldn't share with a wild Pokémon. >.>
This argument is more reasonable than the other one you made for this, I'd say. Some of the Pokédex entries say that Salazzle controls the minds of the male Salandit...but then you don't need to encourage your subordinates if you can control their minds, now that I think about it.
Alakazam can outsmart a supercomputer/has an IQ of 5000, but doesn't learn Helping Hand. One interesting thing about one of the Gen 1 entries (which appears to have been retconned) was that Ninetales's tails were originally "noble saints", which I think would be fitting; since it was later changed to wizards, I think that it undermines this line of argumentation.
That's not indicative of a beam, if you ask me. And if snow absorbs sunlight...it melts. Further, Solar Beam takes 3 turns in hail...and the HO for Alolan Ninetales is literally Snow Warning, which sets Hail. I more have issue with them learning Solar Beam but not HH, though...especially if the logic behind it is, "well, Kanto Ninetales learns it" (which is not what you said, of course; someone else I brought this up with had said it). The Ultra Sun entry suggests that they'll help others...but only to make them go away. The Sword entry is much friendlier. Either way, seems conducive to a HH outlook, though guiding and powering up someone's moves are generally not the same, of course. There should be some moves which help one climb down a mountain though, right?
Well Pokemon does seem more of a Utopian world where most things get along. I have no problem seeing miners tossing a few smaller/faulty gems to a Sableye who pointed to them good spots to dig. Also with the Ability Prankster, if Sableye feels its been ripped off, it can just snatch a few gems and run off.
Though I also Shield's dex entry says that Salazzle have competitions between each other who has the most Salandit. With both Salazzle giving off a pheromone I'd imagine to draw in more Salandit on their side the Salazzle would have to give some additional encouragement. Besides, just look at Salazzle's expression:
Even though she doesn't need to do anything else cause mind control (that said the dex entries don't really say it's mind control, it's more enchanting the Salandit), she's totally the type that would toy and flirt (and apparently give a pimp smack to any Salandit that fail her; not quite the "helping hand" we all had in mind).
But does Alakazam understand human speech? It's not just the words it needs to know but the emotions behind the words, sentence structure, language concepts, etc.. Alakazam can probably figure out the math needed to launch a space shuttle to the moon, but does it understand the themes of a William Shakespeare's play? Ninetales may not understand 2 + 2 is 4, but it can likely keep up with the bard's plays. And with that Ninetale's skills are more sociable thus more likely to be able to provide a helping hand than Alakazam which can give you answers but probably not nor cares to explain how it got it.
I did also notice the "noble saints" dex entry and how later was changed to "wizards"... for it to then be made saints again in Let's Go. However all that is folklore which I don't try to take into account especially when they're "out there" folklore like that.
Didn't say it absorbed it, I said it reflected the light. And it is indicative of a beam if said beam is made of light which Solar Beam is:
And just because the mechanics of the move doesn't make it effective for Alolan Ninetales to use doesn't override the reasoning. A lot of Pokemon get moves they probably wouldn't use if only because it makes sense in context.
I feel like this discussion skipped ahead a few sentences. Anyway, you're certainly right that A-Ninetales does have that justification for why it should be able to get HH. So why doesn't it? Well it's actions are pretty anti-social, it's not helping because it's kind-hearted or there's a mutual benefit (like with the Sableye example I gave above), it's doing so cause it wants to be left alone and best way for that to happen would be to inconvenience itself. But unless it has to it'll keep to itself.
Random thought, though to answer your question we do have Rock Climb.
Maybe its because the Pokedex entry states that Dhelmise gets along very well with Skrelp/Dragalge:
"This vicious Pokémon sprays a poisonous liquid on opponents that come near. For whatever reason, it gets along really well with Dhelmise."
Its chain-like green seaweed can stretch outward for hundreds of yards. For some reason, it gets along well with Skrelp.
Gengar on the other hand, has various Pokedex entries that state its a very dangerous Pokemon:
"It is said to emerge from darkness to steal the lives of those who become lost in mountains."
"The leer that floats in darkness belongs to a Gengar delighting in casting curses on people."
"It apparently wishes for a traveling companion. Since it was once human itself, it tries to create one by taking the lives of other humans."
"Even your home isn't safe. Gengar will lurk in whatever dark corner of a room it can find and wait for its chance to catch its prey."
The criteria for learning Helping Hand probably has to do with Pokemon who are known to live in groups, pleasant looking, have hands, and actually known to help someone. That probably explains why Kyurem can learn it. It has hands and it strives to help people:
"It has foreseen that a world of truth will arrive for people and Pokémon. It strives to protect that future."
It's said that this Pokémon battles in order to protect the ideal world that will exist in the future for people and Pokémon.
Duskull got Helping Hand as a special move in XD, so possibly they just decided it may as well finally get it normally (as happened with Heal Bell Mareep and a few other examples. EDIT: just checked and Oddish FINALLY gets Leech Seed as an egg move in SwSh after having it as an event-exclusive move in Gen 2 and 3. What a long while to wait for a move that by rights it was long since entitled to have).
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Razor Wind is named, in Japanese, on a Japanese yokai of the same name Kamaitachi which was a sickle clawed weasel that rode on gusts of wind
Which is also what Sneasel is based on
Despite this, Sneasel at no point ever learns Razor Wind. Not be level up or breeding or special move or anything. Buizel, the other weasel line, gets the move. But not Sneasel!
Was the move bad? Yes. Did Sneasel need the move? No. Am I baffled as to why the razor wind weasel did not get razor wind? Absolutely.
Which is also what Sneasel is based on
Despite this, Sneasel at no point ever learns Razor Wind. Not be level up or breeding or special move or anything. Buizel, the other weasel line, gets the move. But not Sneasel!
Was the move bad? Yes. Did Sneasel need the move? No. Am I baffled as to why the razor wind weasel did not get razor wind? Absolutely.
I know this is probably for balance reasons since this would likely break BSS based on my limited knowledge of the format, but is there a practical, in-world explanation for why Snorlax doesn't get Slack Off?
Do you ever have those days when you're so tired that, if you stop moving for even a moment, you start to doze off outright?
Snorlax is like that all the time. It can't just "slack off" - whenever it's given a chance to relax (or... really whenever it's not eating), it just falls right to sleep, which is to say that it skips straight from "active" to Rest, while Slack Off is an in-between that it can't achieve.
Recycle is its next-most-reliable form of recovery because that means it gets to be eating the whole time.
Because no one would want to deal with 160/65/110 Bulk with a reliable recovery move.
Not that it matters now that it's been cut, but is there any rationale for the Pokemon that get Trump Card? Eevee, Slowking, Minun, and... Magearna.
There's not a wholly obvious link between those four. Nor what makes Slowbro and Plusle ineligible to learn the move.
Then there's the Pokemon who get it by breeding. Farfetch'd, Kangaskhan, Dunsparce, Corphish, Shellos, Oshawott. Another diverse and relatively unconnected list.
So Trump Card is a quirky sort of move, a gimmick. No other attack works on the basis of its own PP, but like a couple of other Normal moves such as Facade and Endeavour, it works best in a pinch.
Farfetch'd is (was?) a gimmicky sort of Pokemon, as are Dunsparce and Minun, so those fit the move to a degree. Corphish, Shellos, and Oshawatt are all kind of quirky. Kangaskhan learns Reversal and, like a lot of protective mothers in the wild, attacks more fiercely when it's enraged and desperate.
Anyone care to weigh in on the others?
There's not a wholly obvious link between those four. Nor what makes Slowbro and Plusle ineligible to learn the move.
Then there's the Pokemon who get it by breeding. Farfetch'd, Kangaskhan, Dunsparce, Corphish, Shellos, Oshawott. Another diverse and relatively unconnected list.
So Trump Card is a quirky sort of move, a gimmick. No other attack works on the basis of its own PP, but like a couple of other Normal moves such as Facade and Endeavour, it works best in a pinch.
Farfetch'd is (was?) a gimmicky sort of Pokemon, as are Dunsparce and Minun, so those fit the move to a degree. Corphish, Shellos, and Oshawatt are all kind of quirky. Kangaskhan learns Reversal and, like a lot of protective mothers in the wild, attacks more fiercely when it's enraged and desperate.
Anyone care to weigh in on the others?
Fair Enough. Snorlax, does, however have access to the Gluttony + Pinch Berries + Recycle, so it does have some form of reliable recovery, which is fitting Snorlax loves to eat.