Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

Worldie said:
It's funny cause gen 7 sorta neutered Knock Off due to Z crystals and Mega stones not being knockoffable.
However those are gone in gen 8 so Knock Off is as powerful as it can be (moreso with how impactful heavy duty boots are nowadays)
The only ""competition"" on KnockOff in gen 8 is that it sorta competes with Poltergeist, however as far as I know for now the users of Poltergeist that are viable in any given tier are usually 1 or less (maybe for the better considering one of few things keeping certain ghost types in check is the lack of a strong physical stab)
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The fun thing is Knock Off kind of got another nerf in gen 8 in official competitions.
Smogon, and random battles, just uses anyone. Official Competitions have to deal with Mark restrictions and that meaaaaaaanssssssssss

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Knock_Off_(move)

It's not a TR, so a bunch of Pokemon lost access to the move entirely. Much like Toxic, this seems very intentional, especially combined with the pokemon who now learn it naturally.
 
R_N said:
It's not a TR, so a bunch of Pokemon lost access to the move entirely. Much like Toxic, this seems very intentional, especially combined with the pokemon who now learn it naturally.
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To be fair, I'd not count on this just yet.

There's a bunch of notable competitive moves still missing (Toxic is one of them, obviously Knock Off, but also stuff like Tailwind).

There's still a somewhat decent chance those moves do come back in form of tutors in this (or another future) DLC or a second gen 8 title.

Since this isn't exactly new as it basically happened in both last generations, I wouldn't account for the lack of competitive availability of Knock Off just yet.
 
Worldie said:
To be fair, I'd not count on this just yet.

There's a bunch of notable competitive moves still missing (Toxic is one of them, obviously Knock Off, but also stuff like Tailwind).

There's still a somewhat decent chance those moves do come back in form of tutors in this (or another future) DLC or a second gen 8 title.

Since this isn't exactly new as it basically happened in both last generations, I wouldn't account for the lack of competitive availability of Knock Off just yet.
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I feel like using past generations as a fencepost doesnt really work when the TR system is clearly the stand in for the traditional Tutors. The vast majority of tutor moves got turned into TRs (with some of the worse ones getting into TMs iirc) and I really, really, do not think its a coincidence that main stays like Toxic (a TM in literally every single game!), Knock Off & Tailwind very conspicuously got left out of SWSH.

now maybe in about 20 minutes they will reveal "surprise! its more move tutors!!" and I will need to pull out the clown make up but I'm not going to hold my breath on them coming back until Gen 9. If they add more tutors in the next game (remakes? let's gos? some weird thing??) I think it will be like IoA: more entirely new moves.
 
Kurona said:
I mean when we say “move tutors” I think it’s safe to say that phrase can be subtituted by “more TRs”. The point is these moves can and believably could have their distributed restored in some manner later.
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Eh, I don't think we're going to see more TR moves, mainly cause so far I believe all moves that are learnable via TM or TR were removed from breeding lists (mainly as TR moves do get "permanently added" to a Pokemon relearnable moveset I assume)
Knock Off still shows in some families.

Hence I do think that if more moves that aren't currently teachable outside of regular learnsets return, they will be via a Tutor or similar mechanic.
 
Celever said:
A.K.A. more Pokémon should also have been given Aurora Beam or Icy Wind instead of Ice Beam, or Spark instead of Wild Charge. It adds challenge when coverage options are only really effective against the things that they cover and you can't just choice lock Pokémon into them because the moves are powerful enough on neutral targets anyway. The nicher movesets of Gens III and IV are a large part of why many players still see those as the crux of the competitive scene, IMO.
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You’re talking about the same generations with 70 BP Hidden Power, nobody’s gonna use Spark there lol
 
R_N said:
The fun thing is Knock Off kind of got another nerf in gen 8 in official competitions.
Smogon, and random battles, just uses anyone. Official Competitions have to deal with Mark restrictions and that meaaaaaaanssssssssss

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Knock_Off_(move)

It's not a TR, so a bunch of Pokemon lost access to the move entirely. Much like Toxic, this seems very intentional, especially combined with the pokemon who now learn it naturally.
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It's not even the first time they've done such a thing.

They also locked Mega Kangaskhan off Power-Up Punch for competitive Gen VII by removing the move from the TM list and not making it learnable through tutors.
 
CoolMan6001 said:
Considering Spritzee learns Draining Kiss twice though, I am led to believe this occlusion was unintentional, and was a result of some aspects of level-up movesets appearing rushed.
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Hopefully they fix it when Crown Tundra releases, kinda like how they let Melmetal be able to learn Earthquake via TR when Isle of Armour dropped, and removing Drain Punch from Marshadow's Level 1 pool, because it already learned it at Level 54
 
MaahirMomtaz12 said:
Hopefully they fix it when Crown Tundra releases, kinda like how they let Melmetal be able to learn Earthquake via TR when Isle of Armour dropped, and removing Drain Punch from Marshadow's Level 1 pool, because it already learned it at Level 54
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Considering some scenarios like Swirlix still not learning Belly Drum even though the donor in Marill is back, I doubt this will change unfortunately.
 
Even if Toxic and Knock off get wide distribution again, we've already had months of competition, including the Players Cup, without that. I don't think there will be any need for clown makeup here.
 
CoolMan6001 said:
Considering some scenarios like Swirlix still not learning Belly Drum even though the donor in Marill is back, I doubt this will change unfortunately.
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It would be cool to see some previously removed egg moves return since even more donors are going to return in Crown Tundra. (Currently, two of Marowak's egg moves can't be learnt because the donors aren't available until Crown Tundra, like Sceptile for Detect)
 
I always felt like Milotic should've gotten Calm Mind. It would fit that Pokemon very nicely. And a CroCune set on Milotic would be awesome, because of Marvel Scale boosting its Defense. It has a higher Special Attack and Special Defense than Suicune...

And some Water Pokemon not learning Waterfall, or not learning it in Gen 2 but being able to learn it in Gen 3 and 4... Always a bit weird. Why would Lapras, Quagsire or Feraligatr be unable to learn that move in Gen 2? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why can't Cloyster and Pelipper learn it, while most other Water types can?
 
Bayleef030 said:
And some Water Pokemon not learning Waterfall, or not learning it in Gen 2 but being able to learn it in Gen 3 and 4... Always a bit weird. Why would Lapras, Quagsire or Feraligatr be unable to learn that move in Gen 2? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why can't Cloyster and Pelipper learn it, while most other Water types can?
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Gamefreaks only opted for higher Waterfall distribution when the phis/special split happened. Before that, it was just a HM that basically overlapped with Surf with no real benefit over it.

When the phis/special split happened, they were looking at what water attack to make Physical and realized that Waterfall fits that just fine, thus proceeded to increase its distribution.

If the phis/special split never happened, Waterfall would likely still be a relatively low distribution move mostly associated with Pokemon that are known to ... you know... climb waterfalls (which was the original idea of the move).
 
Worldie said:
Gamefreaks only opted for higher Waterfall distribution when the phis/special split happened. Before that, it was just a HM that basically overlapped with Surf with no real benefit over it.

When the phis/special split happened, they were looking at what water attack to make Physical and realized that Waterfall fits that just fine, thus proceeded to increase its distribution.

If the phis/special split never happened, Waterfall would likely still be a relatively low distribution move mostly associated with Pokemon that are known to ... you know... climb waterfalls (which was the original idea of the move).
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I know, but Pokemon like Feraligatr, Lapras etc. couldn't learn it in Gen 2, but they did learn it in Gen 3. So that was before the Physical/Special split.

But yeah, might be because of Double Battles. Back then, in Doubles, Surf didn't hit your ally, and the power was split between the opponents.

Gen 3 is when they really started distributing Waterfall to Water Pokemon that couldn't learn it in Gen 2.

But what I meant... In Gen 2... Why would Blastoise be able to learn it, but not Feraligatr? Why would Mantine be able to learn it back then, but not Lapras? I don't really see the logic behind that.

Source: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Waterfall_(move)
 
Bayleef030 said:
I know, but Pokemon like Feraligatr, Lapras etc. couldn't learn it in Gen 2, but they did learn it in Gen 3. So that was before the Physical/Special split.

But yeah, might be because of Double Battles. Back then, in Doubles, Surf didn't hit your ally, and the power was split between the opponents.

Gen 3 is when they really started distributing Waterfall to Water Pokemon that couldn't learn it in Gen 2.

But what I meant... In Gen 2... Why would Blastoise be able to learn it, but not Feraligatr? Why would Mantine be able to learn it back then, but not Lapras? I don't really see the logic behind that.

Source: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Waterfall_(move)
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Oversight probably
 
From DP until the move was purged in SwSh, Lopunny--and only Lopunny--could learn Return by level-up. In SM, it became a starting move and an evolution move as well.

I'd normally leave it there, but it turns out there is a single Pokemon which can learn Frustration by level-up. In fact, that mon also picked up the friendship move as a starting move in SM. In fact, the two are perfectly mirrored, learning their respective moves at the same time (level 13 in Gens IV-VI before they became starting moves).

That mon is...none other than Lopunny's own pre-evolution, Buneary.
 
jordanthejq12 said:
From DP until the move was purged in SwSh, Lopunny--and only Lopunny--could learn Return by level-up. In SM, it became a starting move and an evolution move as well.

I'd normally leave it there, but it turns out there is a single Pokemon which can learn Frustration by level-up. In fact, that mon also picked up the friendship move as a starting move in SM. In fact, the two are perfectly mirrored, learning their respective moves at the same time (level 13 in Gens IV-VI before they became starting moves).

That mon is...none other than Lopunny's own pre-evolution, Buneary.
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Yeah, for some reason Buneary and Lopunny have this thing where they're loosely themed around Frustration and Return. Buneary actually starts out with 0 Happiness, making it the only non-legendary to be like this. The idea is that Buneary's all pissy at you but when you evolve it it becomes friends and can use Return better. My guess is that this is either something involving irl bunny lore I'm not familiar with or it's just a cheap gimmick in a meagre attempt to justify this garbage furrybait line's presence. Probably the latter
 
jordanthejq12 said:
From DP until the move was purged in SwSh, Lopunny--and only Lopunny--could learn Return by level-up. In SM, it became a starting move and an evolution move as well.

I'd normally leave it there, but it turns out there is a single Pokemon which can learn Frustration by level-up. In fact, that mon also picked up the friendship move as a starting move in SM. In fact, the two are perfectly mirrored, learning their respective moves at the same time (level 13 in Gens IV-VI before they became starting moves).

That mon is...none other than Lopunny's own pre-evolution, Buneary.
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Buneary is, I believe, the only non-legendary pokemon in the series to start with 0 happiness
 
A lot of the purged moves were surprising (Pursuit? Return? Hidden Power?!) while others weren't (I don't expect many people will miss Wring Out or Magnitude). But if you'd had me guess which moves would be ditched I'd have probably correctly guessed Steamroller, since although it was introduced in gen V it turns out that only a grand total of five Pokemon* have ever been able to learn it - Venipede, Whirlipede, Scolipede, Golem, and Guzzlord.

The name Steamroller and the fact that it's a Bug-type move (when Normal, Steel, or even Rock feel more appropriate) suggest somewhat that it's a highly specialised move, but the description is surprisingly generic: "The user crushes its targets by rolling over them with its rolled-up body. This attack may make the target flinch." Similarly to Stomp, it also deals double damage against any opponent that has used Minimize.

It definitely feels like a move a lot more Pokemon should have been able to learn, especially given many similar moves that attack with a bunched-up or sturdy body (Rollout, Body Slam, Heavy Slam, Ice Ball et al) and that the 5 Pokemon who learn it aren't linked by anything in particular other than having a strong, heavy body.

Candidates which could plausibly have learned the move:
  • Blastoise
  • Sandslash
  • Nidoking
  • Cloyster
  • Snorlax
  • Typhlosion
  • Azumarill
  • Forretress
  • Glalie
  • Walrein
  • Hippowdon
  • Abomasnow
  • Tangrowth
  • Darmanitan
  • Carracosta
  • Escavalier
  • Eelektross
  • Stunfisk
  • Diggersby
  • Slurpuff
  • Dubwool
  • Drednaw
  • Coalossal
  • Appletun
  • Centiscorch
  • Falinks
  • Duraludon

There are quite a lot of obscure Gen VI and V moves that get forgotten (Gen VI onwards tends towards introducing signature moves instead of general ones) and this is definitely one of them.

*six, if you count Golem's two forms as different Pokemon
 
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